224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt

[Rocketvapor]

My Factory second 90gr bullets came in.
Look like Sierra SMK that have been pointed.
1.164" long.
Pic next to an 88ELD-M marked with a sized case.

Padom: your data shows 0.030" Longer for the 88 with the same jump.
I jump the 88's about 0.035" in my 22N and would think about 0.005" with the SMK.
That would give me about the same OAL for both.
Need to find the lands in my 22N/28" with these.


Late Edit: Thanks.

 

[padom]

Those are the new 90smk I tested above.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I ran some stability numbers using the online JBM for the 90 SMK
and the 88 ELD-M. B.C.s for these two are arguable
But the pointed 90 is likely a little bit higher.
For a 7 twist, 75F, 29.92" I got:

90 SMK pointed length 1.164"
@ the Muzzle
90/3100 SF 1.80
90/3000 SF 1.78
90/2900 SF 1.76
90/2800 SF 1.74
90/2700 SF 1.72

88ELD-M length 1.240" tip 0.142"
@ the Muzzle
88/3100 SF 1.85
88/3000 SF 1.83
88/2900 SF 1.81
88/2800 SF 1.79
88/2700 SF 1.77

and for transonic (1.1X Speed of Sound) how ever far out that happens,
The 90/1254fps SF 1.33
The 88/1254fps SF 1.36

and as always, check my math

Just a quick check.
Looks like I will load the 90's to 2.460" for 0.002 to .003" off. in the 22N/28"
The 88's get about .034 off @ 2.446".
Maybe a couple more after I clean the throat.
About 015 difference should be a starting point for me.

Will have to repeat this later. Your .030" looks closer.

 

[padom]

Just got back from running some seating depth tests with RE15 and the 88 ELD-M's and 90smk. Not too bad, seating depth tests definitely tightened the groups up.

The 88 ELD's liked being closer to the lands with this combo.







The 90's tightened up being farther from the lands. Still not the consistent accuracy Im looking for out of this cartridge yet but getting better.







After doing some research the last few days I decided to load the 90's over some Varget. Interested in better accuracy, consistently lower SD's and 3000fps. I got more than I was looking for. No pressure signs all the way up to 3103 which ended with an SD 0! Accuracy on the low node was awesome, consistently around a 0.25moa, single digit SD's and right at 3000fps. Going to do some seating depth testing with Varget next. Brass looks great, not a mark on it and no sticky or heavy bolt.







After testing 224V today, Im at a max safe velocity with 88 ELD-M's of 2800. You can get up to 2900 but your trashing brass. The 220TB is safely pushing the same bullets 300fps faster with no signs of pressure and sub 0.5moa groups. Very impressive so far.

 

[padom]

Shot a seating depth test today with the 90smk/Varget high node load and accuracy was excellent close to the lands and 3080fps... Just had a bunch of 90smk show up to hold me over for a while. lol

 

[danthecarpenter]

I've been thinking of a small case .22 for PRS to gain some barrel life and lower cost of components.
Padom, what throat length are you using? (Not a reamer for AR's I'm guessing) What COL do you have with the 88's? Are you using 223 AICS mags?
Thanks Dan

Edit: I see you said MDT BR mags in first post.

 

[padom]

I've been thinking of a small case .22 for PRS to gain some barrel life and lower cost of components.
Padom, what throat length are you using? (Not a reamer for AR's I'm guessing) What COL do you have with the 88's? Are you using 223 AICS mags?
Thanks Dan

I created a custom 224V reamer I had made specifically for a bolt gun. Tightened up a few dimensions and a .110fb.

I have the 88 ELD running 2.53" coal for max case capacity and I'm running out of MDT's new 6br mags. 14rds in the mag. You can find all this info in my 224V bolt gun review thread

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-bolt-gun-testing-review.6935618/

Or are you talking about 220TB?

 

[danthecarpenter]

Sorry, yes 220 TB

 

[padom]

Sorry, yes 220 TB

Yes the 220TB barrel is chambered by Keystone Accuracy using a custom reamer specifically for heavies with .115fb. Those rounds are at 2.545" coal and also ran in the MDT BR mags.

 

[DarinC]

Tagging in. Thank you padom

 

[Longshot231]

Show me which ones sling 90's at 3000, run reliably out of mags, and get 3000+ rounds out of a barrel before it craps out.

Begara makes a rifle in .22-250 with a 1:8 twist. I thought about getting my Remington 700 re-barreled with a faster twist to shoot heavier bullets, but decided against it.

You can only get five rounds of a .22-250 in a magazine because of the tapered case. With the .224 Valkyrie you don't have that problem.

I'm going to shoot out the barrel of the .22-250 then re-barrel it for a 6.5 CM or maybe even the .224 Valkyrie.

 

[epeet]

Isn’t the whole point of the Valkyrie that it fits in a small frame AR? There are plenty of faster .22 cartridges for bolt guns.

Agreed. This is like comparing 6.5 Grendel to 6.5 Creedmore, or .308 to .300 WM. Two different classes of cartridges built on different sized firearms. Not sure the point of this comparison. It should vastly outperform .224 V due to the larger case capacity.

 

[padom]

Agreed. This is like comparing 6.5 Grendel to 6.5 Creedmore, or .308 to .300 WM. Two different classes of cartridges built on different sized firearms. Not sure the point of this comparison. It should vastly outperform .224 V due to the larger case capacity.

You should educate yourself on what you're speaking to before posting. Both of these cartridges were developed for the AR-15 small frame. They both use the exact same Bolt, bolt carrier, receivers, triggers, stocks, barrels, gas blocks, magazines . They both use .224 bullets. The only difference between these two cartridges is the chamber/reamer.

Now, tell me again how these are not comparable. A 6.5g is a small from AR platform cartridge. A 6.5cm is a large frame AR cartridge. How does this scenario you try to relate to have any bearing on my review and comparison? Do you have any knowledge or experience with the 220TB or 224V? If you did you would see how misinformed your post is......

 

[padom]

Let's educate the miseducated some more.

224V 28gr
220TB 29.5gr

6.5g 27.5g small from AR
6.5cm 42g large frame AR

 

[Ugly Dog]

Let's educate the miseducated some more.

224V 28gr
220TB 29.5gr

6.5g 27.5g small from AR
6.5cm 42g large frame AR

Padom
Have you stretched the legs on the 220 yet? I have a 224 build coming and Im already thinking about a 220 build. Only downside I can see is building brass.....I just realized Im a gun whore.........

 

[Kimber.204]

I just realized Im a gun whore.........

That's such an ugly phrase.....let's church it up a little bit and say we're all "gun enthusiasts" hahaha

 

[Longshot231]

That's such an ugly phrase.....let's church it up a little bit and say we're all "gun enthusiasts" hahaha

Precision Rifle Aficionados; anything else would sound uncivilized.

 

[padom]

????

 

[BurnOut]

224V brass gets trashed trying to push 88gr above 2850 in a bolt gun.

FWIW, I'm seeing those same speeds out of a 26" 7-twist 223 AI; I might be able to get a touch more out of it, but that's about where my latest round of testing topped out. The magic powder for me is 2000MR (though I don't recall my charge weight off the top of my head, and my load data is on my home PC).

That said, that rifle certainly is not being mag fed.

 

[b6graham]

FWIW, I'm seeing those same speeds out of a 26" 7-twist 223 AI; I might be able to get a touch more out of it, but that's about where my latest round of testing topped out. The magic powder for me is 2000MR (though I don't recall my charge weight off the top of my head, and my load data is on my home PC).

That said, that rifle certainly is not being mag fed.

also rather temp sensitive?

 

[BurnOut]

also rather temp sensitive?

That hasn't been my experience (again, off the top of my head), but I'll have to do some more testing. When I was in the mode of putting together loads with this powder and testing them out, the weather was fairly consistent (within 10 degrees) from one session to the next so it would be difficult to say for sure.

 

[padom]

This is all why again I stand by my testing and opinion that the 220TB is the perfect cartridge. Its slinging 90smk at 3075 single digit SD, tiny little groups with a mild powder charge and no pressure signs. I went up to 3100 and no signs of pressure. You can go higher, I have no reason to. Id rather have a nice mild charge with awesome speeds and brass life. My goal was 3000...My final mild load bested that by 75fps...

 

[DarinC]

Before this thread my next rifle was going to be a Valkyrie without question. I’m now trying to figure out the best way to make a TB. (Poor mans budget version - Single income family and the wife doesn’t understand the obsession). Awesome info, and amazing performance. Really curious to see where barrel life falls.

 

[padom]

Before this thread my next rifle was going to be a Valkyrie without question. I’m now trying to figure out the best way to make a TB. (Poor mans budget version - Single income family and the wife doesn’t understand the obsession). Awesome info, and amazing performance. Really curious to see where barrel life falls.

In a gasser button barrels have been getting 2500 +/- and cut rifled 3500 +/-

Keystone Accuracy is having their Memorial week .224 barrel say on button and Kreiger barrels. You can purchase the exact barrel I'm using in this review for under $400 with muzzle threads....

 

[padom]

Padom
Have you stretched the legs on the 220 yet? I have a 224 build coming and Im already thinking about a 220 build. Only downside I can see is building brass.....I just realized Im a gun whore.........

Not yet but will be doing that very soon now that I have my final load..

There is nothing to brass. You run the brass in the 220TB FL bushing die with the same bushing you use for 223 Lapua. That's it.

 

[Kimber.204]

Just got notification that my 6mm Hagar Go/No-Go gauges shipped from Creedmoor Sports!!!!
They should arrive about the same time as my 220 Thunderbolt barrel from Keystone Accuracy.

The summer is about to get a lot more fun!

 

[garandman]

Isn’t the whole point of the Valkyrie that it fits in a small frame AR?

No, it isn't. The COAL you need to load the 224V exceeds max AR mag length.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

No, it isn't. The COAL you need to load the 224V exceeds max AR mag length.

You need to do some more reading.

 

[garandman]

You need to do some more reading.

I'm sufficiently well read,, thank you. You need to not make uninformed assumtions about what I've read.

You CAN load to AR mag length. Duh. That's what Federals factory ammo is. Its like 2.230 +/- as memory serves ... of the rounds I mic'd.

But to get the most outta an 80-90 gr bullet (which is the sweet spot of the 224V.... there's already a ton of 77gr or lesser boolits out there to fit AR mags) , its stupid to load to AR mag length.

My opinion....but the 224V in a semi AR mag fed platform is a waste / redundant. Wouldn't waste my money.

 

[phlegethon]

I'm sufficiently well read,, thank you. You need to not make uninformed assumtions about what I've read.

You CAN load to AR mag length. Duh. That's what Federals factory ammo is. Its like 2.230 +/- as memory serves ... of the rounds I mic'd.

But to get the most outta an 80-90 gr bullet (which is the sweet spot of the 224V.... there's already a ton of 77gr or lesser boolits out there to fit AR mags) , its stupid to load to AR mag length.

My opinion....but the 224V in a semi AR mag fed platform is a waste / redundant. Wouldn't waste my money.

Fitting into the AR-15 platform is literally the entire reason why Valkyrie was designed.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 224 Valkyrie: Comparisons and Capabilities

The new .224 Valkyrie cartridge from Federal sends a bullet on a heck of a ride. What can this new round do for you? See the details here.

www.shootingillustrated.com

 

[garandman]

Fitting into the AR-15 platform is literally the entire reason why Valkyrie was designed.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 224 Valkyrie: Comparisons and Capabilities

The new .224 Valkyrie cartridge from Federal sends a bullet on a heck of a ride. What can this new round do for you? See the details here.

www.shootingillustrated.com

The "horseless carriage" (car) was originallly designed to go 8 mph.

Better ideas came along. Same with 224V. Like 80 - 90 grain bullets going 2700 fps.


Those don't fit in an AR mag.

Time / logic / technology has surpassed the 224V from an AR platform.

 

[spife7980]

The "horseless carriage" (car) was originallly designed to go 8 mph.

Better ideas came along. Same with 224V. Like 80 - 90 grain bullets going 2700 fps.


Those don't fit in an AR mag.

Time / logic / technology has suprassed the 224V from an AR platform.

For knowing so damn awful much about everything you make some really stupid posts/threads.

22gr 223, 77gr 223, 90 gr valk.

Its design is to get a 90 in a small frame ar.

 

[garandman]

For knowing so damn awful much about everything you make some really stupid posts/threads.

LOL

Found this pic of you on a google search. I won't be joining you there in the mud ....

 

[padom]

Yes, it was created for the small frame AR.. But its performance is severely held back due to mag length restrictions. Hence why many are shooting it in a bolt gun. 88-95gr bullets can be loaded out longer increasing case capacity which translates to more speed without pressure....

 

[garandman]

Look at the bullet profiles. You'll have a 0.030 - 0.050 (or more) jump to the lands.

 

[garandman]

Yes, it was created for the small frame AR.. But its performance is severely held back due to mag length restrictions. Hence why many are shooting it in a bolt gun. 88-95gr bullets can be loaded out longer increasing case capacity which translates to more speed without pressure....

^^^ THIS. But I guess that's too difficult a concept for ppl who prefer to curse, attack and insult.

 

[Triple D]

Nothing redundant about loading the 80 eld’s at 2950-3000fps (224VALKYRIE ). The ballistics are better than a mag fed 223/5.56 or 6.5 grendel by a considerable margin.

I will be getting a blank to spin up a 220TB bolt gun for running the 95’s. I can’t get enough speed from the 95’s in a 224VALKYRIE gas gun to meet my “wants”.

 

[spife7980]

Yes, it was created for the small frame AR.. But its performance is severely held back due to mag length restrictions. Hence why many are shooting it in a bolt gun. 88-95gr bullets can be loaded out longer increasing case capacity which translates to more speed without pressure....

No one can argue that, more space only allows for more everything. Thats not the statement that people took exception to though.

No, it isn't. The COAL you need to load the 224V exceeds max AR mag length.

This is what people took exception to. The troll telling us that the valk wasnt designed to fit in a small farm ar... which it was.
The valk does a whole hell of a lot better than the 223 with a 90 grain and the same mag restrictions. Obviously it can do more in an entirely different platform; but thats not what he said.

 

[garandman]

This is what people took exception to. The troll telling us that the valk wasnt designed to fit in a small farm ar... which it was.
The valk does a whole hell of a lot better than the 223 with a 90 grain and the same mag restrictions. Obviously it can do more in a different platform, but thats not what he said.

WRONG.

What I said is better ideas have come along... like 80+ grain bullets ( as padom described) that don't fit AR mags - IF yer looking for performance. If yer looking just to cram an 80 gr bullet into an Ar mag....well that's just dumb. .

Can you read? Cuz you don't really evidence the ability to do so. Yer skillset is attacking and insulting.

 

[padom]

No one can argue that, more space only allows for more everything. Thats not the statement that people took exception to though.

I didnt quote you.

 

[padom]

This is what people took exception to. The troll telling us that the valk wasnt designed to fit in a small farm ar... which it was.
The valk does a whole hell of a lot better than the 223 with a 90 grain and the same mag restrictions. Obviously it can do more in an entirely different platform; but thats not what he said.

You are correct. It WAS created specifically for the AR.

You guys need to slow your damn roll.

 

[Bradu]

I'm sufficiently well read,, thank you. You need to not make uninformed assumtions about what I've read.

You CAN load to AR mag length. Duh. That's what Federals factory ammo is. Its like 2.230 +/- as memory serves ... of the rounds I mic'd.

But to get the most outta an 80-90 gr bullet (which is the sweet spot of the 224V.... there's already a ton of 77gr or lesser boolits out there to fit AR mags) , its stupid to load to AR mag length.

My opinion....but the 224V in a semi AR mag fed platform is a waste / redundant. Wouldn't waste my money.

So where would that put Lowlight at since he shoots factory valkyrie ammo out of a bolt gun? I really don't know if you are trolling lately or...

 

[padom]

No, it isn't. The COAL you need to load the 224V exceeds max AR mag length.

This isnt correct either. This is only true IF you are using a custom long freebore 224V reamer like I designed and had Manson make for me. If you are using SAMMI reamers mag length restrictions arent an issue.... You physically cant load a 88, 90 or 95 bullet to the lengths Im loading them to, which puts the bullet boat tail/bearing surface junction at the case shoulder/neck junction in a bolt or gasser if your chamber was cut with a 224V sammi reamer. It wont chamber cause the freebore is too short.

You guys are too damn quick to start a pissing match instead of carefully reading what you write in relation to what people respond.. A little better worded and both of you are right. In a sense

 

[spife7980]

I really don't know if you are trolling lately or...

Hes an absolute troll even if he is oblivious to it. First he is recommending wilson inline dies and an arbor press and the next week hes asking if barrels heat up. And Im not even going to get into his semi forum antics.

I shouldnt have even responded, I deleted my first response but I have little will power and now weve mucked up another good thread.

 

[padom]

So where would that put Lowlight at since he shoots factory valkyrie ammo out of a bolt gun? I really don't know if you are trolling lately or...

It puts him at hes shooting factory ammo in a sammi chamber. Nothing wrong with that and works great. Is he getting every last bit of performance out of the caliber, no. But I dont believe thats his intention.

 

[garandman]

This isnt correct either. This is only true IF you are using a custom long freebore 224V reamer like I designed and had Manson make for me. If you are using SAMMI reamers mag length restrictions arent an issue.... You physically cant load a 88, 90 or 95 bullet to the lengths Im loading them to which puts the boattail/bearing surface junction at the shoulder/neck junction in a bolt or gasser if your chamber was cut with a 224V sammi reamer. It wont chamber cause the freebore is too short.

You guys are too damn quick to start a pissing match instead of carefully reading what you write in relation to what people respond.. A little better worded and both of you are right. In a sense

My concern with 224V in standard SAAMI chambers isn't cramming a bullet into a mag. That can obviosuly be done.

Its more the amount of "jump" that will be necessary for any bullet that will fit an AR to the lands of the rifling.

 

[Triple D]

My concern with 224V in standard SAAMI champbers isn't cramming it in a mag. That can obviosuly be done.

Its more the amount of "jump" that will be necessary for any bullet that will fit an AR to the lands of the rifling.

And yet, many of us are having great success with the 224VALKYRIE feeding from AR mags.

 

[garandman]

Hes an absolute troll even if he is oblivious to it. First he is recommending wilson inline dies and an arbor press and the next week hes asking if barrels heat up. And Im not even going to get into his semi forum antics.

I shouldnt have even responded, I deleted my first response but I have little will power and now weve mucked up another good thread.

You also TOTALLY repeatedly distort what I post....even bringing up other totally unreated posts from other threads into this thread. Which is a great way to START pissing matches.

Then I'm faced wih letting false accusations stand, or clarifying / correcting them.

 

[padom]

My concern with 224V in standard SAAMI champbers isn't cramming it in a mag. That can obviosuly be done.

Its more the amount of "jump" that will be necessary for any bullet that will fit an AR to the lands of the rifling.

Like I said, be careful what you say. You didnt say that. You said the COAL you need to load 224V doesnt fit in an AR mag....This is not a true statement. I load 88 ELD's all day long in my 224V gasser and they shoot tiny 0.5moa. groups...Is it going as fast as my custom 224V reamer in my bolt gun? No. But it shoots beautifully out to 800yds so far. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[garandman]

I'm not gonna participate in further ruination of this thread. Guess I'll just hafta let the false statements go unchallenged.

Out.