22GT load data

#351
I’m with you on that. Dashers pushing 3000 FPS come to mind. My ARC actions have a flat face and mechanical ejector. Couple that with 450s, Lapua or Alpha OCD brass and you can be over 70,000 PSI without any signs of trouble.

I use a similar program, GRT, and try make sure I stay below pressures and run at a OBT node. Sadly the guy behind GRT died. It doesn’t have 4955 or the 22GT in the program. I am working on building the cartridge in there, but don’t know enough about it to “build” a powder.

Thank you for running the numbers in QL, I really appreciate it. I was curious about the 4955 since a lot of guys are using RL23 and RL26. Out of curiosity is 4955 too slow burning or too bulky for the fast speeds? Edit, I see from your files it’s too bulky.

Once I get my CDG action in I can start playing with GRT and the powders I have. I’ll have actual numbers for case volume and speeds from my barrel it should go fairly smoothly.

Thanks again.
 
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#352
Kiba said:
Not sure what bullet you're planning on running, but here's what QL is estimating for 4955 with a 90gr VLD loaded to 2.6" OAL.

View attachment 8113845

For something lighter, here's data for a Hornady 80 ELD-M loaded to 2.500" OAL:

View attachment 8113855

Note: I don't have my 22GT brass yet (it should be here tomorrow) so I'm using 44.90gr for case capacity which a few other people have measured.

QL's powder test table estimates that 4955 isn't the fastest powder for the 22GT, but it has a good case fill vs pressure relationship and the case won't be too empty if you load conservatively under max pressure nor excessively compressed if you load near max pressure. If you have 9# of 4955 left and aren't worried about chasing max velocity I'd load some up for testing.
Click to expand...
That is good data. Do you have a QL run for H4350, 88ELDMs and Alpha 22GT brass? I’m curious how the 35gr load looks.
 
#353
MilSpecOkie said:
I’m with you on that. Dashers pushing 3000 FPS come to mind. My ARC actions have a flat face and mechanical ejector. Couple that with 450s, Lapua or Alpha OCD brass and you can be over 70,000 PSI without any signs of trouble.

I use a similar program, GRT, and try make sure I stay below pressures and run at a OBT node. Sadly the guy behind GRT died. It doesn’t have 4955 or the 22GT in the program. I am working on building the cartridge in there, but don’t know enough about it to “build” a powder.

Thank you for running the numbers in QL, I really appreciate it. I was curious about the 4955 since a lot of guys are using RL23 and RL26. Out of curiosity is 4955 too slow burning or too bulky for the fast speeds? Edit, I see from your files it’s too bulky.

Once I get my CDG action in I can start playing with GRT and the powders I have. I’ll have actual numbers for case volume and speeds from my barrel it should go fairly smoothly.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

The burn rate of 4955 looks too slow to achieve max velocity with the 85-90s, it hits max pressure at a slower velocity and isn't burning fully compared to more ideal powders like RL16 or RL26 which will produce higher velocities at the same pressure because the powder burn rate is different and better suited to the heavy for caliber bullets. It's just not a matter of case fill, 4955 will likely be at or above max pressure with a mildly compressed load (106% fill) but still be below your 3100-3150 target velocity.


Triggerf16 said:
That is good data. Do you have a QL run for H4350, 88ELDMs and Alpha 22GT brass? I’m curious how the 35gr load looks.
Click to expand...

I can run that today when I get home, but I'm not sure my version of QL has the 88ELD-M in the library so I might need some dimensions from you like bullet length, boat tail length, and base diameter, along with your desired loaded OAL. I know the latest updates for QL have the berger 85.5 and hornady 88 ELDM included but I haven't purchased this year's QL update yet as I'm waiting for them to add staball match and staball HD to the powder library. It's easy to add bullets on my own; powder data, not so much...
 
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#355
MilSpecOkie said:
@Kiba

I was thinking the case fill versus percentage of powder burned meant it was too bulky not too fast burning?
Click to expand...

It's a burn rate and pressure curve issue, not just fill. Fill is more of a guideline; you don't want to use a powder that leaves the case too empty as it might have inconsistent ignition, nor do you want a powder that's so compressed it results in inconsistent seating depths, and crunching the crap out of the powder with a heavily compressed load can break it down into smaller pieces which will alter the surface area of the kernels and can change the burn rate characteristics which can result in weird pressure spikes or increased SD/ES.

For instance, from the tables above 38.16gr of 4955 is 102% fill, yields 59.4ksi pressure and 3072 fps, and it isn't fully burned by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. Even if you altered the density of 4955 to make it more dense per grain (so you could physically pack more in the case) but maintained the same burn characteristics and overall energy content per grain of powder you still couldn't safely put more in the case to reach a higher velocity because it would be at max pressure; the burn characteristics of 4955 just aren't ideal for that case and bullet combo, it hits max pressure before achieving your targeted velocity.

On the other hand, if you use RL16 and adjust the charge to the same 59.4ksi target pressure it takes 35.76gr of RL16 which is 95.8% fill but QL comes back with 3158fps.

4955 is slower than RL16 based on Hodgdon's burn rate chart (RL16 is #129, while 4955 is #145.) Based on the QL data the 4955 burn characteristics aren't ideal for the 22GT even with 90s, so even with a near max pressure load of 4955 the estimated velocity is slower than the more ideal powders at the same or even lower pressures.

Oddly enough, at the same target pressure of 59.4ksi QL estimates the fastest powder for 90s in the 22GT would be RL26; using 41.6gr which is a 101% fill it's estimating 3250fps at the same 59.4ksi pressure as 4955 and RL16 above. What's kind of odd is RL26 is even slower on the burn rate chart than 4955 (RL26 is #157) but obviously the burn and pressure characteristics are different as the estimated velocity with RL26 is much higher. RL26 really seems to be the speed king in many loads that use heavy for caliber bullets, provided there's enough case capacity for it.

QL allows you to quickly "test" a bunch of powders in your case/bullet combo by specifying a target pressure and max fill percentage and it returns results sorted in order of velocity. I usually like to have it run that powder database test around 52.5ksi and 105% max fill. I haven't messed with Gordon's reloading tool but I'm guessing it would have a similar feature.

Triggerf16 said:
That is good data. Do you have a QL run for H4350, 88ELDMs and Alpha 22GT brass? I’m curious how the 35gr load looks.
Click to expand...

As mentioned earlier I don't have the dimensions for the 88 ELDM, but here's what QL shows for a 90 VLD @ 2.6" with H4350 in a 26" barrel which should be close...

1680835042016.png
 
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#356
@Kiba

Thanks for the information. I have other powders to try, with the 22 GT. I was just trying to find a use for this 4955. Maybe it will work in my 6 GT, 6 or 6.5 Creedmoor, or 270. I’ll find a place for it somewhere. LOL
 
#357
MilSpecOkie said:
@Kiba

Thanks for the information. I have other powders to try, with the 22 GT. I was just trying to find a use for this 4955. Maybe it will work in my 6 GT, 6 or 6.5 Creedmoor, or 270. I’ll find a place for it somewhere. LOL
Click to expand...
4451 is more in line for the creed, but 4955 is similar to H4831sc so that'd be a good choice for the 270 I'd think.
 
#361
If anyone wants to build 22GT in GRT, this may help.
Start with 6GT in the cartridge builder & then modify with the dimensions shown here.
I used the GA precision reamer print with .169 free bore. Alpha brass. Seven twist, & .219 bore with 6 groove.
Check h2o of a once fired case, & adjust if it's a little off.

I tried to figure out how to export the file, but it must be a bug. If I save it & then try to open it gives an error???

This has been giving me pretty close estimates for the 5 powders I've tried.

1680920375381.png
 
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#362
357Max said:
If anyone wants to build 22GT in GRT, this may help.
Start with 6GT in the cartridge builder & then modify with the dimensions shown here.
I used the GA precision reamer print with .169 free bore. Alpha brass. Seven twist, & .219 bore with 6 groove.
Check h2o of a once fired case, & adjust if it's a little off.

I tried to figure out how to export the file, but it must be a bug. If I save it & then try to open it gives an error???

This has been giving me pretty close estimates for the 5 powders I've tried.

View attachment 8115407
Click to expand...
What are you using for a water weight capacity and with what brass?
 
#363
MilSpecOkie said:
I have a good assortment to choose from. 4166, 4451, 4955, RL 15.5, 16, 23, 26, Varget, H4350, StaBall 6.5 and some others I'm surely forgetting. Yes, I have a problem. LOL
Click to expand...
Rl23 works well in 22gt I'm told. I have all those powders as well, but started with H4350 and it shot lights out, never ventured away from it since I have near 50#. The gt cases just shoot! Love my 22 and 6.
 
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#366
MilSpecOkie said:
Out of curiosity what is your capacity in the 6 GT. Mine is 45.05.
Click to expand...
I haven’t loaded anything for the 6GT in Alpha brass yet, still cycling through a few hundred Hornady cases. Been using 44.85 on those. To be honest though I can’t remember if I measured h2o on the Hornady GT brass. It was so easy to find loads for I’ve just rolled with it.
Measuring some 308 h2o today so I’ll throw 1 or 2 Hornady 6 GT in the mix.
 
#367
I measured 44.6gr of water on fired alpha 6gt on my adi scale. Believe it was the first run of ocd. Before the OCD it held a bit more. I have 2 newer lots of OCD and the case weights are progressively a grain heavier from my original ocd lot, believe lot 1 was 141 avg, then newer 142, and newest from this last month is 143.
 
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#368
Barrel life update:

Started shedding jackets with 1250 rounds on it 2 weeks ago. Confirmed with both 90SMK and Berger 85.5 LRHT. She gone.

Bore scope showed significant carbon retention around the shoulder/neck junction and into the leade.

Ran some Iosso patches through it and it unsurprisingly revealed some of the worst carnage I’ve ever seen. There were essentially no lands left in the throat, jagged edges where the lands remained in tact, and had significant fire cracking present 6-8” beyond the chamber. When I say it was torched it was TORCHED.

Interestingly enough, it shot well right up to that point. But once it started going, it fell off a cliff.

Notes of interest:
- Brux 28” - 1:6.5 twist - .218 bore diameter
- steady diet of 3120-3150fps over the life of the barrel
- adjusted the load after cleaning to see if slower speeds would keep the jackets together with no such luck

I would say a variety of factors contributed to this barrel being pretty short-lived. Between the speeds/firing intervals, twist rate, bore size, etc. I’m somewhat surprised it lasted as long as it did. That said, I have no idea how guys are getting 2k plus out of these things shooting anywhere near normal speeds. I just don’t see it.

Haven’t decided if I’m going to replace it and keep going or sell off the components and go a different direction. I would change a number of factors if I were to do it over again.
 
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#369
just browsing said:
Barrel life update:

Started shedding jackets with 1250 rounds on it 2 weeks ago. Confirmed with both 90SMK and Berger 85.5 LRHT. She gone.

Bore scope showed significant carbon retention around the shoulder/neck junction and into the leade.

Ran some Iosso patches through it and it unsurprisingly revealed some of the worst carnage I’ve ever seen. There were essentially no lands left in the throat, jagged edges where the lands remained in tact, and had significant fire cracking present 6-8” beyond the chamber. When I say it was torched it was TORCHED.

Interestingly enough, it shot well right up to that point. But once it started going, it fell off a cliff.

Notes of interest:
- Brux 28” - 1:6.5 twist - .218 bore diameter
- steady diet of 3120-3150fps over the life of the barrel
- adjusted the load after cleaning to see if slower speeds would keep the jackets together with no such luck

I would say a variety of factors contributed to this barrel being pretty short-lived. Between the speeds/firing intervals, twist rate, bore size, etc. I’m somewhat surprised it lasted as long as it did. That said, I have no idea how guys are getting 2k plus out of these things shooting anywhere near normal speeds. I just don’t see it.

Haven’t decided if I’m going to replace it and keep going or sell off the components and go a different direction. I would change a number of factors if I were to do it over again.
Click to expand...
What have you learned in this journey ? What changes would you make? Move unto ?
 
#370
bodhisafa said:
What have you learned in this journey ? What changes would you make? Move unto ?
Click to expand...

In short:
- .219 bore diameter
- 1:7 twist at a minimum, preferably 7.5 or even 8
- use 4831 or something with a slower burn rate than 4350… temper velocity without sacrificing case fill
- don’t chase speed, stay in the 3k fps +/- range
- don’t expect great barrel life out of massively overbore cartridges
 
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#371
just browsing said:
In short:
- .219 bore diameter
- 1:7 twist at a minimum, preferably 7.5 or even 8
- use 4831 or something with a slower burn rate than 4350… temper velocity without sacrificing case fill
- don’t chase speed, stay in the 3k fps +/- range
- don’t expect great barrel life out of massively overbore cartridges
Click to expand...
I've got 1100 on mine and it's definitely got some fire cracking and throat erosion. It's a 219 bore 7tw, haven't had any bullet failures yet. Still prints small groups. I had a 28" 22br barrel spun, will see how it compares velocity wise. I'm already seeing pretty good accuracy with break in loads just seating depth testing. When this 22gt is toast, likely only have 3 firings on the brass, likely will build a varmint rifle with maybe 120k freebore for 75-80gr bullets to use the brass up.
 
#374
just browsing said:
Barrel life update:

Started shedding jackets with 1250 rounds on it 2 weeks ago. Confirmed with both 90SMK and Berger 85.5 LRHT. She gone.

Bore scope showed significant carbon retention around the shoulder/neck junction and into the leade.

Ran some Iosso patches through it and it unsurprisingly revealed some of the worst carnage I’ve ever seen. There were essentially no lands left in the throat, jagged edges where the lands remained in tact, and had significant fire cracking present 6-8” beyond the chamber. When I say it was torched it was TORCHED.

Interestingly enough, it shot well right up to that point. But once it started going, it fell off a cliff.

Notes of interest:
- Brux 28” - 1:6.5 twist - .218 bore diameter
- steady diet of 3120-3150fps over the life of the barrel
- adjusted the load after cleaning to see if slower speeds would keep the jackets together with no such luck

I would say a variety of factors contributed to this barrel being pretty short-lived. Between the speeds/firing intervals, twist rate, bore size, etc. I’m somewhat surprised it lasted as long as it did. That said, I have no idea how guys are getting 2k plus out of these things shooting anywhere near normal speeds. I just don’t see it.

Haven’t decided if I’m going to replace it and keep going or sell off the components and go a different direction. I would change a number of factors if I were to do it over again.
Click to expand...
That’s really discouraging news. The question is will you do it again or go back the 6GT?
 
#377
Kiba said:
It's a burn rate and pressure curve issue, not just fill. Fill is more of a guideline; you don't want to use a powder that leaves the case too empty as it might have inconsistent ignition, nor do you want a powder that's so compressed it results in inconsistent seating depths, and crunching the crap out of the powder with a heavily compressed load can break it down into smaller pieces which will alter the surface area of the kernels and can change the burn rate characteristics which can result in weird pressure spikes or increased SD/ES.

For instance, from the tables above 38.16gr of 4955 is 102% fill, yields 59.4ksi pressure and 3072 fps, and it isn't fully burned by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. Even if you altered the density of 4955 to make it more dense per grain (so you could physically pack more in the case) but maintained the same burn characteristics and overall energy content per grain of powder you still couldn't safely put more in the case to reach a higher velocity because it would be at max pressure; the burn characteristics of 4955 just aren't ideal for that case and bullet combo, it hits max pressure before achieving your targeted velocity.

On the other hand, if you use RL16 and adjust the charge to the same 59.4ksi target pressure it takes 35.76gr of RL16 which is 95.8% fill but QL comes back with 3158fps.

4955 is slower than RL16 based on Hodgdon's burn rate chart (RL16 is #129, while 4955 is #145.) Based on the QL data the 4955 burn characteristics aren't ideal for the 22GT even with 90s, so even with a near max pressure load of 4955 the estimated velocity is slower than the more ideal powders at the same or even lower pressures.

Oddly enough, at the same target pressure of 59.4ksi QL estimates the fastest powder for 90s in the 22GT would be RL26; using 41.6gr which is a 101% fill it's estimating 3250fps at the same 59.4ksi pressure as 4955 and RL16 above. What's kind of odd is RL26 is even slower on the burn rate chart than 4955 (RL26 is #157) but obviously the burn and pressure characteristics are different as the estimated velocity with RL26 is much higher. RL26 really seems to be the speed king in many loads that use heavy for caliber bullets, provided there's enough case capacity for it.

QL allows you to quickly "test" a bunch of powders in your case/bullet combo by specifying a target pressure and max fill percentage and it returns results sorted in order of velocity. I usually like to have it run that powder database test around 52.5ksi and 105% max fill. I haven't messed with Gordon's reloading tool but I'm guessing it would have a similar feature.



As mentioned earlier I don't have the dimensions for the 88 ELDM, but here's what QL shows for a 90 VLD @ 2.6" with H4350 in a 26" barrel which should be close...

View attachment 8114632
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting this. I can’t imagine the SMK bearing surface would cause significantly Higher psi. It’s odd my brass has all cratered primers at 34/35gr h4350 or Whatever im using. Stupid AI.
 
#378
Krob95 said:
Thank you for posting this. I can’t imagine the SMK bearing surface would cause significantly Higher psi. It’s odd my brass has all cratered primers at 34/35gr h4350 or Whatever im using. Stupid AI.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure we are running identical guns/loads and mine did the same thing - cratered primers, but no other real pressure signs.
 
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#379
We are if it’s in an ATX. It’s awesome lol ran up to 36.3 with no signs of psi other than cratered primers. I’m about ready to sell it and just run an impact and foundation 🙄
 
#381
Still cant figure out my pressure issue. I think a carbon ring is forming. 34g H4350 behind 88 eldm. running right at 2950 in my 24" barrel. I hit about 50-60 rounds and start getting significant pressure. Anyone else running into this after so few rounds? Thanks.
 
#382
usmc45 said:
Still cant figure out my pressure issue. I think a carbon ring is forming. 34g H4350 behind 88 eldm. running right at 2950 in my 24" barrel. I hit about 50-60 rounds and start getting significant pressure. Anyone else running into this after so few rounds? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't plan on going to extended round counts with this before cleaning. Carbon rings are a PITA to get out so I'm hoping to stay ahead of them. It should easily go 120+ from a clean barrel even with a fairly dirty powder. Did have something similar happen in my 6GT, didn't show pressure but speed started climbing & it was indeed a carbon ring building up.
Good scrubbing with a little iosso in the throat took care of it. I also switched to Bore tech eliminator and it has never reoccurred +5-600 rounds later.
Last time out with the 22GT I fired 80 rounds fire forming virgin Alpha brass. 37.5g 6.5 Staball & 88 eldm speed was 3040 from a 24" barrel on a Tika. The 6.5 Staball is the dirtiest powder I've tried.
 
#383
357Max said:
The 6.5 Staball is the dirtiest powder I've tried.
Click to expand...
I have limited experience with StaBall, but I think all the Alliant powders I've used 15.5, 16, 19 and 23 are just as dirty if not dirtier than Staball. I have learned that you do not go extended intervals of cleaning with them or you will be sorry.
 
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#384
Just noticed hodgdon dropped lotsa load data for 22GT - 10 loads for 88s alone 👀

Guess she's official boys 😉
 

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#390
What load and speed are you at now?

I just shot my first few yesterday so I could get a feel for it and see what speeds I’m getting. I am at 35 grains of 4955 and 88s. Only 20 rounds so far and it’s about 2865 fps. I want to save my other powders until the barrel gets 150 rounds on it or so. Then I’ll likely use H4831SC.
 
#391
MilSpecOkie said:
What load and speed are you at now?

I just shot my first few yesterday so I could get a feel for it and see what speeds I’m getting. I am at 35 grains of 4955 and 88s. Only 20 rounds so far and it’s about 2865 fps. I want to save my other powders until the barrel gets 150 rounds on it or so. Then I’ll likely use H4831SC.
Click to expand...

I am running 35.0 at 3,125 according to Kestrel. That’s a big jump up from the 2,959 in the initial testing. Now that the barrel is sped up, I’m going to do one more load development run.
 
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#393
MilSpecOkie said:
How did you like it during the match? Are you running a brake, what kind and size?
Click to expand...
The whole rifle is new so my opinion is not fully formed. I will say, coming from a 6.5CM going 2,745, I need more practice. Misses are harder to see and the bullet gets to the target noticeably faster. Overall, I am fan with no regrets. Ask me again after a few more matches and 500+ rounds. I'm sure the misses and time of flight will be less of an issue.
 
#394
I think that seeing hits on plates at closer distances for sure will be difficult at the speeds you are pushing. Even near 3000 fps isn’t that much slower. I know I can tell a difference in my 6GT loads of 2830 and 2940. I’m harder pressed to see which way a plate wiggles with the faster node if I can even tell. It’s something I just expect with the 22. Time will tell.

How far did you have to shoot and did you have issues knowing if you hit the plate? ROs have issues?
 
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#398
Birddog6424 said:
I'm not sure what your definition of really deep in the case is. But here's the math.

From the base of the 22GT to the neck shoulder juncture is 1.43". To the end of the chamber is 1.73". So the neck of the chamber is .3" long. The transition is usually about .015, and using a standard .120" GT freebore that gives you .435" to seat the bullet and jump it.

The bearing surface is .361 on the 85.5gr Hybrid. So if you were to perfectly line up the bearing surface boat tail juncture of the bullet to the neck shoulder juncture of the case (which still isn't perfectly accurate as the case juncture has a bit of radius) you would be jumping approximately .075". I say approximately because the ogive will actually contact the lands a little sooner than that.

But even with a .120" freebore, you can still jump .060" with nothing but the .166" boattail section of the bullet in the case. And if you have to go a little deeper that doesn't mean anything. I've shot that bullet and the 88gr ELDM in a .050" freebore 22BR and 22 Dasher. They were lasers. There are reasons to seat the bullet out in to the neck and get it out of the case, but every load doesnt have to be that way. Seating the bullet out is optional. Most often not even necessary.

I'm currently using the standard .120 freebore on my 6GT and running long ass 115gr DTACs. They are seated a little in to the case, but that doesn't hurt anything. This is last Wednesday getting ready for the PRS Pro Series Lead Farm Barrel Burner. This is 20 rounds at 1000 yards testing bullet BC. I got a .310 G7 BC and 5" of vertical dispersion.

Click to expand...

I know this post is almost a year old but I have a couple questions for you. Naked or coated DTACs, what powder, what jump?
 
#400
Wow, those must have been pretty deep in the case. I have a new barrel and was thinking about using my DTACs but they are coated, but they take more powder to get the same speed. I might not be able to get enough powder in there with them that deep. Thanks for the info.
 
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