He says it's not. I called him and that's what he got out of his rifle with N570.
Curious then what others get or if they have pressure. Impressive speed none the less.
What would be the starting grains of powder for this load? I am not wanting to push those speeds (seems unrealistic for my rifle), I just don't know where to start with n570. I know that my 338ax likes n570 and I have a bunch of it.
Couldn't tell you man, it's not my load and I haven't tried it yet.
Berger's starting load with N570 and the 245 EOL at 3.680 is 79.4 grs and max is 87.2
Question for the group- I have a le wilson inline seater with an arbor press for seating. For sizing I've historically used redding body dies and Lee collet dies. I've read good reviews on the hornady sizing die.
What sizing die do you use successfully? I have a distaste in my mouth with the redding bushing die as I've had experience with the bushing bring angled before. Thanks
What sizing die do you use successfully? I have a distaste in my mouth with the redding bushing die as I've had experience with the bushing bring angled before. Thanks
I really like the Redding S dies for the past 15 years or so, after many years or using Lee, Hornady and RCBS. For wildcats I've traditionally had CH4D make custom dies for me, but lately I've been using custom Whidden dies and really like them. If you want to stick with a bushing die, give the Whidden dies a try.
My Norma is a 28" and with 86.5 grains of N570, 215M and Lapua brass I get 3000 fps with no pressure using 230 Bergers. At 87.1 grains I get a faint ejector mark.
Shot my first rounds through my 300NM this weekend.
I did a work up with the following materials:
Peterson virgin brass
215 Berger Hybrid
FGM215M primers
VV N570 powder
seated at 3.595 OAL based off Mark Gordon’s distance to the lands test.
started at 81 grains because 300NM isn’t your moms 223. VV lists max load for this bullet and powder at 87.3 so I started at 81 and worked up to 84.
84gn N570 was 2940 avg with ES of 19 and SD or 9.5.
AI ASR factory 27 inch barrel that had only been factory test fired. I’m sure I’m going to see it speed up as it wears in. It only has 12 rounds on it now. No pressure signs at all at 84gn. I think I may push to 85 but I don’t really feel the need to find the limit. Peterson brass is known for having a bit smaller capacity than others so I may just stick with 84 and fine tune from there.
I did a work up with the following materials:
Peterson virgin brass
215 Berger Hybrid
FGM215M primers
VV N570 powder
seated at 3.595 OAL based off Mark Gordon’s distance to the lands test.
started at 81 grains because 300NM isn’t your moms 223. VV lists max load for this bullet and powder at 87.3 so I started at 81 and worked up to 84.
84gn N570 was 2940 avg with ES of 19 and SD or 9.5.
AI ASR factory 27 inch barrel that had only been factory test fired. I’m sure I’m going to see it speed up as it wears in. It only has 12 rounds on it now. No pressure signs at all at 84gn. I think I may push to 85 but I don’t really feel the need to find the limit. Peterson brass is known for having a bit smaller capacity than others so I may just stick with 84 and fine tune from there.
Cadex 300 Norma 26in Bartlein
Federal 215M Primers
Lapua Brass
Hornady 225 ELD-M
Retumbo 84.6 GNS
10Thou off the lands.
After 100 rounds barrel sped up and did a double 10 round node test. 84.6 of Retumbo has been shooting the lights out in my rifle.
Federal 215M Primers
Lapua Brass
Hornady 225 ELD-M
Retumbo 84.6 GNS
10Thou off the lands.
After 100 rounds barrel sped up and did a double 10 round node test. 84.6 of Retumbo has been shooting the lights out in my rifle.
The lack of published data is frustrating, but FWIW I'm testing 215s with RL33 and getting similar results to N570.
I tried RE33 in my 1st Norma a few years ago and the speed was impressive but the ES was wild, over 100 fps at times according to my cheapo chronograph. I've had much better results with N570, H1000 and Retumbo, with N570 giving the best results for me with the 230s. Now that my current 28" barrel has settled in I'm getting 3045 with N570 and 230 Bergers, single digit ES.
Okay, RL33 pushed the Berger 220s really fast with no signs of pressure. The last charge weight in my test was 98gr which gave me 3244fps out of a 28" barrel, but the velocity graph for the whole sequence was all over the place, so I can't really identify a node. I'll try again next weekend and try N570 as well.
I'm going to try 215s and 220s with N570. Rifle should arrive this week. 29.5" 9tw Krieger modified heavy varmint on a Stiller Tac 338, should be able to get good speeds.
I was planning to load up some 220s with N570 today, but I'm seeing a serious discrepancy between Vihtavuori's data and what Quickload is predicting. There is no data for the 220 LR Hybrid specifically, but the 220 Scenar load range is 71.3 to 82.9gr, while QL says all of that is quite low. Naturally, I'll take the Viht data over QL any day, but it does seem odd to be so far off. I've been using QL long enough that I feel fairly competent setting values to more closely match the ranges I'm working with. In fact, for the past 12 years or so my go to methodology is to look at reference data and then use QL to compute powder type/ ranges to work up to. I've never seen such a wide margin of error before, which has me hesitating a bit.
I believe page 9 of this thread has my RL33 results. My velocities were all over the place. I had the best results with Retumbo.
Had a chance to try those 220s with N570 yet? My rifle just showed up yesterday, should have scope, brass and bullets in the next few days. The numbers you got from QL, is that for Lapua brass? Which primers and what OAL? I'm struggling to find load info for 220s and N570.
No, unfortunately the mismatch with data and QL made me a bit hesitant this round, so I instead explored the 220s a bit further with RL33. I used to run N570 in .338LM and .338LM Improved when I lived overseas and it was an easy powder to get, and while I should be able to compare those loads to get a safe ballpark for what I should use in the .300NM, that particular log book from 2010-2015 I suspect is still packed away in storage.
For the record, I'm using Lapua brass and Fed 215M primers with 3.585" COAL.
Using the 220gr Scenar-L as an analog for the Berger 220, Vihtavuori says the max load should be 82.9gr
If I try to duplicate those values in QL, I get results that are wildly off. Their max load nowhere near the max pressure and velocity is predicted to be almost 200fps slower. According to QL, the max should be closer to 90.0gr @ 3000fps.
Again, normally I would defer to the load data from the manufacturer, because QL is a general predictor of performance. I've used it for years as a way to test a variety of load parameters virtually, and help guide my load development process. So normally I look at the published data and then fiddle with QL to see the zone I should be working in, but in this case the discrepancy is way off. And with so little published data out there for this combo, I'm a bit hesitant.
To add to the confusion, if I plug the numbers I used with RL33 into QL, they generally correlate with the readings I got at the range (this is normally the case from my experience). The results I got with RL33 were impressive, but the unexpectedly noisy nature of the velocity curve makes me hesitant to continue. I may just take the time to load a batch with N570 working within the VV data's min/max zone, and I suspect there will be quite a bit of room to expand on it. I also have a bunch of that new Ramshot LRT I could try as well.
So adventures with .300NM continue....
For the record, I'm using Lapua brass and Fed 215M primers with 3.585" COAL.
Using the 220gr Scenar-L as an analog for the Berger 220, Vihtavuori says the max load should be 82.9gr
If I try to duplicate those values in QL, I get results that are wildly off. Their max load nowhere near the max pressure and velocity is predicted to be almost 200fps slower. According to QL, the max should be closer to 90.0gr @ 3000fps.
Again, normally I would defer to the load data from the manufacturer, because QL is a general predictor of performance. I've used it for years as a way to test a variety of load parameters virtually, and help guide my load development process. So normally I look at the published data and then fiddle with QL to see the zone I should be working in, but in this case the discrepancy is way off. And with so little published data out there for this combo, I'm a bit hesitant.
To add to the confusion, if I plug the numbers I used with RL33 into QL, they generally correlate with the readings I got at the range (this is normally the case from my experience). The results I got with RL33 were impressive, but the unexpectedly noisy nature of the velocity curve makes me hesitant to continue. I may just take the time to load a batch with N570 working within the VV data's min/max zone, and I suspect there will be quite a bit of room to expand on it. I also have a bunch of that new Ramshot LRT I could try as well.
So adventures with .300NM continue....
I did some more testing today with 220 Hybrid LRs and both RL33 and N570 and it basically confirmed that RL33 is just varies too much. I was getting really impressive velocities, but shooting a series of 5-shot groups across relatively stable charge weights gave me some unacceptable SDs and no standout groups. For context, in this same session I did some seating depth testing of a 6.5x47L load I've been working on and got some outstanding groups with low single-digit SDs. Switching to N570 and shooting a velocity ladder from 89.6gr to 94.4gr (at 3.585" COAL) I got much more stable results. Velocities were still pretty high (from 3077fps to 3315fps) but the velocity curve was much more consistent than RL33.
Hey guys, just following up on a previous comment on here. Looking at VV's reloading data for N570 and Berger 230gr Hybrid Target, they show start load as 71gr and max at 83.5gr. Berger's reloading manual shows for the N570 and 230gr Hybrid Target bullet, a start load of 86gr and max of 90.3gr - quite a massive difference, and not even "overlapping".
Anyone know why this is? Or have maybe asked Berger about the massive difference? I'm curious to know.
Thanks!!!
Anyone know why this is? Or have maybe asked Berger about the massive difference? I'm curious to know.
Thanks!!!
Something is wrong with VV's data for .300NM as far as I can tell. Take a look at my post further up the page with charts.
I loaded a range from 89.6gr to 94.4 @ 3.585" COAL with N570 and only saw obvious pressure signs starting around 93.8gr. There was a gradual flattening of primers in the second half of charge weights, but nothing excessive and no cratering or sticky bolt.
I called Berger today and spoke with Cory. He had no idea that VV's data was 15gr less powder than Berger's data, both using 230gr Hybrid Target bullet. He said the Berger data was taken from QL and that VV actually shot theirs, but the VV data makes absolutely NO sense. With VV's starting load of only 71gr (using 230gr bullet), pressure is only like 30000 psi or so, vs max pressure of almost 64000 psi according to QL. I cannot believe VV would actually publish such extremely LOW powder charges.... I mean 15gr LESS than Berger data is huge - all things being equal with 230gr Berger bullet and N570 powder.
Received a follow-up email from Bob at Berger Bullets today, explaining the massive difference in powder charges between VV's data and Berger's data. Makes sense - somehow I never saw the COAL the 2 use... Here's his email: "We do have unpublished Berger Load Data available for use with you .300 Norma Magnum using our 215 grain, 230 grain, and 245 grain weight bullets. The differences in our Berger Load Data and the Vihtavuori Load data is simple to explain and the differences are controlled by the COAL used in the Berger Load Data which is for 3.680" COAL and in the Vihtavuori Load Data which is for a 3.406" COAL. That is a difference of 0.274" inches in the COAL length and this does make for this difference in internal case volume that can be worked with with the respective load data from either team. This shows that our Berger Load Data team here in the US and our Vihtavuori Load Data team do work independently of each other. This is due to the fact that our team in Vihtavuori, Finland must work with the CIP dimensions under penalty of law and we work under the auspices of the SAAMI industry standard here in the US."
Thank you Yerman for the 250 ATips info...well documented and always love the 3 guys graphic. Couple of questions:
> stopped abruptly at 89.5gr R33 with 250AT because hit pressure or was that last round? And have you tried Berger 245's or 230 ATs to compare with 8:1T?
Thanks in advance for excellent support provided - great work! So far Hornady 225 ELDMs, 230 SMKs 92.2gr R33 (3050) 32" 8:1T BR2 (each rifle barrel is custom and overall machined uniquely different from one to another, safety emphasis on each barrel must be slowly stepped up to this max load using .2gr increments) excellent results on last 4 builds 300NMs sub. ¼" or better. Now working on single feed 300NM 32" Bernard Action 8:1 carbon wrap custom reamed for 250 ATIP.
I finalized a load using Berger 220s with N570:
Berger 220 Hybrid Long Range
Lapua Brass
Fed GM215M
92.6gr N570
3.585" COAL
Neck expanded to 0.3055"
3265fps AVG out of 28" barrel
This is after first trying RL33 pressure testing and getting really wild variation over linear powder increments. The switch to N570 significantly smoothed out the velocity curve and gave me a good bracket of safe pressures to work with.
Overall, the velocity is impressive and I worried that I was running it hot, but I didn't see pressure signs until 93.2gr. From there to 94.0 I started seeing flattening of primers, then cratering and light ejector marks, so I made 93.0gr the powder ceiling. I traditionally use seating depth tests to finalize a load, but doing neck tension tests as well is a new extra step for me and if anyone sees holes in my process, please let me know.
Berger 220 Hybrid Long Range
Lapua Brass
Fed GM215M
92.6gr N570
3.585" COAL
Neck expanded to 0.3055"
3265fps AVG out of 28" barrel
This is after first trying RL33 pressure testing and getting really wild variation over linear powder increments. The switch to N570 significantly smoothed out the velocity curve and gave me a good bracket of safe pressures to work with.
- ran 3-shot strings of 90.0 - 94.0gr (+/- 0.2) to look for velocity node
- ran 5-shot strings of 92.2 - 92.8gr (+/- 0.1) to narrow the search for velocity consistency.
- ran 5-shot strings of 92.6gr (+/- 0.002") with seating depth variations
- ran 5-shot strings of 92.6gr @ 3.585" (+/- 0.0005") with neck tension variation
Overall, the velocity is impressive and I worried that I was running it hot, but I didn't see pressure signs until 93.2gr. From there to 94.0 I started seeing flattening of primers, then cratering and light ejector marks, so I made 93.0gr the powder ceiling. I traditionally use seating depth tests to finalize a load, but doing neck tension tests as well is a new extra step for me and if anyone sees holes in my process, please let me know.
Attachments
I am running out of retumbo but have a bunch of N570. I am wondering if anyone has ran n570 with 225 eldms? Retumbo was amazing but those days are almost over. Trying to figure out if n570 will work and a starting point.
I was running 225eldm, 86.5gr retumbo @ 3050fps.
I was running 225eldm, 86.5gr retumbo @ 3050fps.
Yup, I'm still a bit puzzled by the velocity being higher than expected, but I wasn't seeing pressure signs so I'll take it. As you may have read further up there's concern that Vihtavuori's data is off, so I interpolated data from a variety of sources with similar bullets. 85gr should be a good starting point, especially if you're seating to a more standard 3.680" COAL (mine prefers 3.585").
My update:
DT SRS with Proof carbon 28" 1-8T barrel.
Custom freebore to fit standard 338LM Magazine
250 A-tip
Lapua case
215M
VV N570
Jumped 0.025 from JAM
COAL 3.7095"
CBTO 2.8455"
Powder charge test #1
Soon will do more detailed powder charge weight test in 84-85 area (MV and POI based) also here it was very cold, so would like to get same winter/summer load if possible.
Shots #9-10 already were showing quite visible ejector marks, but no swings still. Primers were OK.
DT SRS with Proof carbon 28" 1-8T barrel.
Custom freebore to fit standard 338LM Magazine
250 A-tip
Lapua case
215M
VV N570
Jumped 0.025 from JAM
COAL 3.7095"
CBTO 2.8455"
Powder charge test #1
Soon will do more detailed powder charge weight test in 84-85 area (MV and POI based) also here it was very cold, so would like to get same winter/summer load if possible.
Shots #9-10 already were showing quite visible ejector marks, but no swings still. Primers were OK.
Attachments
I saw in an earlier post, you were asking about freebore length. I am curious what freebore you went with? Did you have a custom reamer made? Or did you move it back with a uni throater?
Sent bullet, case and mag to a smith and he adjusted freebore as per my requirements. I know its silly but right now I dont have measurement. it supposed to be 0.020" jump when bullet is seated @ case neck - shoulder junction, but not longer than MAG lenght.
Been trying to find powder for my 300NM and its been pretty hard and it’s getting even harder now.
I would love to use Retumbo, H1000, N570, or RL33 but haven’t turned up anything. Today I snagged 5lbs of RL25 and 1000 215GM primers so I’m pretty happy. Anyone used RL25? I have found very little of others using it.
Looks like it will only be 93% case capacity and from what I read not to temp stable. Anything good or bad I should also know about? Or other powders to be on the look out for.
26” 1:9 barrel
230 Berger and Norma Brass
I would love to use Retumbo, H1000, N570, or RL33 but haven’t turned up anything. Today I snagged 5lbs of RL25 and 1000 215GM primers so I’m pretty happy. Anyone used RL25? I have found very little of others using it.
Looks like it will only be 93% case capacity and from what I read not to temp stable. Anything good or bad I should also know about? Or other powders to be on the look out for.
26” 1:9 barrel
230 Berger and Norma Brass
It's a bit on the fast side for what you're shooting, but it'll work - you just won't get as much velocity as you'd get with slower powders. Ramshot/Accurate LRT has been more widely available, but is a bit on a slow side for this cartridge. Again, you can use both, but they're not ideal.
I just shot a 15 round ladder of 250gr Atip / H1000 out of my 300 Norma. This was with once fired Lapua brass and federal 215M primers.
26" Bartlein 1:9" with chamber set to jump factory Berger 230 ammo (COAL 3.557", Ogive 2.655") .020" to the rifling.
At 125 rounds I measured .041" jump (.021" erosion?) and loaded the 250s at COAL 3.700". This OAL put the ogive at 2.690" from the case head and resulted in .005"-.006" jump to the rifling.
1/2 grain increments, 1 shot each, 62F, DA 5800, Alt 4400, Humidity 28%, tested with magnetospeed.
77.5 - 2732
78.0 - 2751
78.5 - 2750
79.0 - 2798
79.5 - 2812
80.0 - 2841
80.5 - 2860
81.0 - 2869
81.5 - 2893
82.0 - 2897 probably will test more here
82.5 - 2901
83.0 - 2923
83.5 - 2938 slightly heavier bolt lift?
84.0 - 2959 stiffness on bolt lift, slight ejector mark.
84.5 - 2986 noticeable stiff bolt and ejector mark. Stopped.
Sure would be nice if Hornady would put some Norma data up for their cool new bullets. I had to crunch numbers between 300 prc, 300 rum and other calibers to get a starting point. Hopefully this is useful for someone as there's not much out there.
26" Bartlein 1:9" with chamber set to jump factory Berger 230 ammo (COAL 3.557", Ogive 2.655") .020" to the rifling.
At 125 rounds I measured .041" jump (.021" erosion?) and loaded the 250s at COAL 3.700". This OAL put the ogive at 2.690" from the case head and resulted in .005"-.006" jump to the rifling.
1/2 grain increments, 1 shot each, 62F, DA 5800, Alt 4400, Humidity 28%, tested with magnetospeed.
77.5 - 2732
78.0 - 2751
78.5 - 2750
79.0 - 2798
79.5 - 2812
80.0 - 2841
80.5 - 2860
81.0 - 2869
81.5 - 2893
82.0 - 2897 probably will test more here
82.5 - 2901
83.0 - 2923
83.5 - 2938 slightly heavier bolt lift?
84.0 - 2959 stiffness on bolt lift, slight ejector mark.
84.5 - 2986 noticeable stiff bolt and ejector mark. Stopped.
Sure would be nice if Hornady would put some Norma data up for their cool new bullets. I had to crunch numbers between 300 prc, 300 rum and other calibers to get a starting point. Hopefully this is useful for someone as there's not much out there.
Question for a potential build. (standard 300nm unless someone can convince me to go improved).
The powders I have on hand in large quantities: IMR 8133 and VV n565. Would any of these be good for 220 to 250 class bullets?
The powders I have on hand in large quantities: IMR 8133 and VV n565. Would any of these be good for 220 to 250 class bullets?
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