Range Report 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

#201
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Just a quick update on my loading process here. It's been a pretty miserable winter thus far for this area, we've spent a lot of time the last several weeks in the teens and low 20's. It's 24 and snowing on top of the already 8" of snow we have here. The drifts in my back yard are about 2 feet, there's one at my work that's at least 6 feet deep.

Anyway, my last outing was 27 degrees, 19 degree wind chill. I loaded up some other rounds just to try, and I downloaded my RL17/208amax loads to 47.5, and 48.0gr to see what the velocities were, and check accuracy. It was far from a thorough range trip, it was just too cold to do too much shooting. At 109y I got the following;

47.5gr
Avg 2487fps
SD 17
ES 34

48.0gr
Avg 2526
SD 11
ES 27

The brass has been through 6-7 firings (FL sized everytime except for once) and I believe it was starting to get a little hard. I'm working on my next batch of ammo that i'm hoping to go out this thursday to shoot at 600+ yards, it's suppose to be a balmy 28 degrees that day. All but 14 cases have been annealed and i'm hoping that'll bring my ES' down a hair by making the neck tension a little more consistent. If I could get 15fps on the ES that would make me do the happy dance.

One thing to note was that I had no pressure signs this time, and the bolt lift was normal. Recoil was still intense, I think I found the right position in my shoulder to hold the rifle so it doesn't hurt as much.

Branden
 
#203
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

So has anyone attempted to load these to magazine length just to see what kind of velocity they can get?

Just wondering before I go and do something stupid. I would hate to waste 20 or so just to recreate what someone else did. I realize I will need to load them long to get the most out of them, but I just like to tinker.
 
#206
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awsome, now I just need to get some RE17.

Going to start out with RE15 and see where that goes. </div></div>
RE15 ain't gonna get you nowhere....i would guess 22-2300 fps max with re15
 
#208
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awsome, now I just need to get some RE17.

Going to start out with RE15 and see where that goes. </div></div>
RE15 ain't gonna get you nowhere....i would guess 22-2300 fps max with re15 </div></div>


I got 2480 fps.

44.5gr RL15
CCI 200
Moly'd 208
Win brass
3.00" oal
factory Rem 700VS 1/12 barrel, cut to 22".
 
#209
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awsome, now I just need to get some RE17.

Going to start out with RE15 and see where that goes. </div></div>
RE15 ain't gonna get you nowhere....i would guess 22-2300 fps max with re15 </div></div>


I got 2480 fps.

44.5gr RL15
CCI 200
Moly'd 208
Win brass
3.00" oal
factory Rem 700VS 1/12 barrel, cut to 22". </div></div>
what was pressure like with that load?
 
#212
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I don't think i'm going to get back out for a while. It's 8 degrees right now, we're getting some more snow, getting more tomorrow, temperatures are going to stay below freezing for at least the next 10 days, and half of them are going to be in the teens or less. This snow will never melt away until spring apparently. I can't get onto the land to shoot while there's snow on the ground. I just can't risk getting the wifes SUV stuck, she'd be quite upset with me.

I need trigger time.

Branden
 
#213
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I've been meaning to post this, but the holidays got in the way. I lengthened the throat. The pic is of the before and after. The loaded case will just barely eject and clear the action from the chamber. It will feed thru the base of the action, but I had to scrap the original box magazine. I will fab something up in the future so I'll be able to do more than single feed. But for the time being, it should work just fine.

I haven't gone out to shoot it yet but that is on the list of things to do. This is as long as possible from the Savage action. It's .265 longer and hopefully will shoot as well as it did before. It was a hot load and this increased length will hopefully decrease the pressure so it won't be such a fine redline.
Before: 2.865, 2.185 ogive
After: 3.130, 2.445 ogive
100_4960.jpg
 
#215
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Just to document this info for those interested. I loaded up some 210SMK's in new Winchester brass with 48gr of RL-17. No pressure signs. Overall length 2.940" (mag length) which corresponds to .050" jump in my TRG-22 (26" barrel). Chronoed velocity is 2540fps with SD of 10fps.

Fired two 5-shot groups at 200 yards, both were very close to 0.5MOA. For comparison my 175gr SMK loads (45gr of Varget, 2710fps), averaged .37MOA for 3 5-shot groups.

Then went out to 600 and 1000 yards. Because of the gusty wind conditions I took sighters before shooting groups. Group size for the 210's was similar to the 175's. About 1MOA at 600 yards, and 1.2MOA at 1000 yards averaged over a few groups. By then I was out of ammo.

What I could not test was sensitivity to wind, since the wind was very unsteady 0 - 12mph. For 10mph crossing wind Bryan's PMB code predicts 80" drift for the 175's and 62" for the 210's at 1000 yards (for my velocities and altitude of 4500 ft.). At 600 yards there is no significant difference (22" vs. 20").

I think the 210's show promise at 1000 yards. Accuracy is comparable to the 175gr loads, and theoretically windage should be easier to correct if I were any good at that. For ranges under 800 yards, there is little difference in trajectory. The 210 loads have noticeably more recoil, but nothing like a 30-06 hunting rifle.
 
#216
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Your right at the length I was playing with. I was using 4350 worked up to 51grs and would have gone higher if I could have gotten more in the case. I am anxious to see your results.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been meaning to post this, but the holidays got in the way. I lengthened the throat. The pic is of the before and after. The loaded case will just barely eject and clear the action from the chamber. It will feed thru the base of the action, but I had to scrap the original box magazine. I will fab something up in the future so I'll be able to do more than single feed. But for the time being, it should work just fine.

I haven't gone out to shoot it yet but that is on the list of things to do. This is as long as possible from the Savage action. It's .265 longer and hopefully will shoot as well as it did before. It was a hot load and this increased length will hopefully decrease the pressure so it won't be such a fine redline.
Before: 2.865, 2.185 ogive
After: 3.130, 2.445 ogive
100_4960.jpg
</div></div>
 
#217
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awsome, now I just need to get some RE17.

Going to start out with RE15 and see where that goes. </div></div>

Powder Valley has RL17 in stock.
 
#218
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

So I went out and shot today. Accuracy remained the same, but I lost about 70 fps. I think MV was 2635. Four shot group measured .341 moa. I will post more about this and some pics later tonight.
 
#220
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Here's the pic. Range was 200 yards. I was using a bipod and rear bag off the picnic table (literally) at the PD range. It will shoot better. But I can't under those circumstances. Regardless, the accuracy is still there. I may have lost a little speed, but I can still fling a 210 gr pill at velocities that exactly match the 175s I shoot from the AR10 that shoot with the same accuracy.

It seems as though I have stepped away from the fine line that I was running with that shorter COL. I figured when I pulled the bullets to reseat them, I would find diamonds inside the case instead of powder the load was so compressed! I'm sure I could recover the lost speed. However I doubt anything I hunt would recognize the difference anyway.

100_4962.jpg


This second pic is from 300m or so. (probably a bit further) I was trying to shoot the rock that was holding down my box target. I was running the turret and holding to the left and right in failing light and wasn't able to spot the holes, just the dirt rooster tails in the berm behind it. The hit on the top was the first round, the other three were from me attempting to score the hit thinking I was to high.

It's a good load. I have accomplished what I set out to do with the rifle. I just need to get a Manners stock and figure out the mag thing and it will be perfect. I'll be putting a 20 moa rail on the rifle in the next day or so to get it past 1k. I'll also sent the scope back to Leupold for a TMR reticle and M1 turrets. THEN it will be perfect.

100_4963.jpg
 
#221
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

That is typically the case. Correct. The same amount of powder will yield the same amount of gas produced. The difference is the container is larger, therefore the pressure is reduced and the velocity follows suit. At least that is how I understand it.
 
#222
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

just as one has already said.when you adjust the coal to a longer coal it will give you a little less pressure and the speed will follow some but not much.

and I have really liked what you two guys have done with the two bullets of choice.the 210gn and the 208gn bullets.for me all I need is some powder and bullets and not to forget warmer weather.
 
#223
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

FFL Medic

From reading this thread it appears that one lot of RL 17 is faster. Are you using the faster lot? What length drop tube are you using? I was getting velocities about the same as you are getting with a standard powder but I was using a 26 inch barrel.
 
#224
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I went out today finally and got some trigger time in. I loaded up 6 groups of 3 rounds each of 48.0gr RL17 under a 208amax, my COL was close to 3", it's loaded long of course. I had previously loaded with 49.0gr but that proved to just be too hot, stiff bolt lift, loose primer pockets, ejector swipe, ect...

3 sets were with Lapua FL sized brass that had not been annealed yet, and had very limited case prep done to it. The last 3 sets were of annealed brass that I had painstakingly cleaned the inside of the necks up, and they were annealed prior to FL sizing, and loading. I was looking to see if there were any differences in ES and SD between the 2, as well as check the accuracy, and velocity of the reduced load.

The last time I went out with this load I was getting an average velocity of 2526fps through my Shooting Chrony, I know it's not an Oehler, but it's what my budget allows. On that day using the same load configuration it was 27 degrees and 29.4"Hg, today was 54 degrees and 28.4"Hg. My barrel got a thorough cleaning since the last shoot, and today's velocities were averaging 2578fps for both sets of 9 rounds, so a sampling of 18 rounds. The ES and SD changed very little for the better of the cleaned neck rounds, not enough for me to warrant the extra time spent cleaning the necks. HOWEVER, I believe there was some issues in the chrono data. I had some rounds that seemed to be going WAY too fast for the load. I had one round that read 2640fps. I believe the average should be more like 2560, with ES around 50 or less. It was overcast today but I still used the sky screens just to be sure.

One last thing, I had 2 rounds from the 18 fired that had stiffer than normal bolt lift, I don't understand how dropping 1 full grain from a load that I know was getting hot, could still had the occasional round that was causing stiff bolt lift. The last outing yielded no such bolt lift issues, but the temp was also 25 degrees cooler. Any input?

Here's my groups, set 1 (non-annealed or cleaned) is the left column, and the right column is annealed, and cleaned necks. I did have 1 called flyer where the round was touched off too early, I wasn't quite ready in the breathing cycle, light trigger got me.

1-23-10_target.jpg


I'm definately used to the recoil now, I didn't even notice it at all today, the rifle really jumps up off the rest though, and everything slowly walks backwards off the bench. The placement to the right of the bull is consistent with the nice and steady 12-15mph crosswind.

Branden
 
#226
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FFL Medic

From reading this thread it appears that one lot of RL 17 is faster.
</div></div>

There can be quite a difference based on chambers/barrels/brass too. I suspect that is more at play than inconsistent powder.

My loosey goosey bbl/chamber, coupled with roomy Win brass, and moly, seems to take about 1.5-2.0 grains more powder for the same velocity, compared to the guys running tight chambers and Lapua brass.
 
#227
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Shane, I was thinking the same thing. The powder is Swiss made. Not that they are perfect, but they won't admit to that and they are pretty damn close. I haven't even had time to check the powder lot #. My dad had a LOT of dealings with the Swiss and they are crazy anal about all of their weapons related items. Stuff like ALL military cartridges must essentially perform as match ammo. It's ALL made to match standards period, or it won't be issued.
 
#228
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I am going to jump in and try this powder/bullet combo. My stick is a Rem 700 LTR 20" barrel. I am waiting on my Manners T5A with chassis system to come in. Since I will be using the AICS mags in 3 months, I am going to load to 2.88, which should be fine with the 5 round mags.

I am thinking of the OCW test using these charges:

1 - 43
1 - 44
1 - 45
3 - 45.3
3 - 45.6
3 - 45.9
3 - 46.2
3 - 46.5
3 - 46.9

Do these charges sound about right? I am basing these charges off previous comments in these threads and duplicating the COL used in there tests.

PS - I have loading data from Hornady, but they did not include RL17. The loading data from Alliant, does not use the 208 AMAX and only goes to 180gr pill.
 
#230
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blklabs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am going to jump in and try this powder/bullet combo. My stick is a Rem 700 LTR 20" barrel. I am waiting on my Manners T5A with chassis system to come in. Since I will be using the AICS mags in 3 months, I am going to load to 2.88, which should be fine with the 5 round mags.

I am thinking of the OCW test using these charges:

1 - 43
1 - 44
1 - 45
3 - 45.3
3 - 45.6
3 - 45.9
3 - 46.2
3 - 46.5
3 - 46.9

Do these charges sound about right? I am basing these charges off previous comments in these threads and duplicating the COL used in there tests.

PS - I have loading data from Hornady, but they did not include RL17. The loading data from Alliant, does not use the 208 AMAX and only goes to 180gr pill.

</div></div>

based on what i have seen they (the grain charge) seem on the very low end of the charge load. you might start out and jump 1 grain at a time until you get to 46 then 46.5, 47, 47.5 and so on. not a bad idea to start low and work up but i think you'll find that the top end is a lot higher than 46gr.

I am, using a match chamber and military brass and using 48gr seated at 2.945 with no signs of pressure.

i first loaded mine at 2.85" and they shot like crap, then loaded same charges at 2.945" ( going of the base to ogive length with a bullet comparator)and they went from 1.5" to .5" groups just with the seat change.
 
#231
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I think you are right LongArm. This is what I will do this afternoon. I loaded 11 cartridges up from 43-49 (.5 gr increments starting at 45gr) and I will shoot those watching for pressure signs, flattened primers, sticky bolt etc. When I start to see them I will use that as max load and use the OCW testing to develop the load.

I will post the results this evening.
 
#232
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

My chronograph did not work today. Its a brand new CED2, it would not register the shots. I am thinking maybe the wind was moving the tripod enough to where it would not get an accurate reading of the bullet passing through.

With that said I took it all the way to 49 grains without any pressure signs with Lapua brass and 2.945 COAL. The primers looks the same at 49 as they did at 43 and there was no appreciable difference in bolt "stickiness". I think I am going to work up the OCW using:

3 - 48.1
3 - 48.4
3 - 48.7
3 - 49.0
3 - 49.3 (watching for pressure)
3 - 49.6 (watching for pressure)

I will be heading out to try these on Sunday morning. The wind is supposed to have died down, so that should make for some good testing. Hopefully the chrono won't fritz out on me.
 
#234
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I kept moving my chrono from 10-15' away it did not matter. The wind is the only thing that I could think could have been the problem.

I did not shoot for groups as I just loaded 1 at each weight and then checked for pressure signs. It has not been a good day. I just got to my 2nd cartridge of 49 grains and I broke my primer slide on my Hornady LNL. I guess I am done for the weekend and will be calling Hornady first thing Monday morning!
 
#235
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I always have a hand primer around just in case. If/when I can afford it, I always have a backup solution. Sucks though, I was looking forward to seeing your results posted. I would work on my own, but i'm going to be working on a 175smk and Varget load workup on Sunday.

Branden
 
#237
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I had 6 shells that were laying around that needed to be broken up so I was able to cannibalize them since they were already primed. I neck sized them and loaded them up. Now I have the following:

3 - 48.1
3 - 48.4
3 - 48.7
3 - 49.0
3 - 49.3 (watching for pressure)

I will shoot these either today or Sunday (depending on the wind today) and post the results.
 
#238
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Onemoretime is right about the new morta mags and modded AICS mags allowing for a 2.95OAL. but if you are using a 700SA the bottom of the action is only 2.885 that is why the AICS mags have the spacer in them.

So if you want to run modded AICS or the new Morta mags you will have to have the bottm of the action opened a bit.
 
#242
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Gotcha. I think that might be THE SA setup. The only other thing I was thinking, was to use a 700 LA and some sort of old BAR mags for the .30-'06. But then why not use the .30-'06 anyway. I dunno. Too many choices.
 
#244
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I was able to make it out Saturday afternoon. The one thing that was missing was my rear support (typically use a wadded up jacket, but I was wearing it it was so cold, I need a good rear bag!) The results were fantastic from a velocity perspective and terrible from an accuracy perspective. I am not sure if it was me, the load, or both but it was not a good day. I am curious to shoot again with a rear support. I am wondering if my 20" 1-12 twist barrel is not stabilizing the bullet????

The loads were:

48.1 gr - 2505, 2513, 2498, ES = 15
48.4 gr - 2508, 2501, 2498, ES = 10
48.7 gr - 2517, 2538, 2514, ES - 24
49.0 gr - 2553

At 49 grains today the bolt was slightly sticky and with the pretty high jump in velocity, I did not shoot any past that.

With those on paper, I think I am going to back down to 46.9 gr and work back up in .3 gr increments and see if maybe I can find a sweet spot. I really want to stay around 2500 fps, but 25 fps either way is not going to make a bit of difference.

The only load that showed any promise was 48.7 were there were 2 bullets touching but the 3rd was 2" below them. I know the gun shoots decent as my 168 gr AMAX load shoots around .5-.7 all day long. I really think it was a factor of the idiot behind the trigger, but next weekend I will know for sure.
 
#245
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blklabs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was able to make it out Saturday afternoon. The one thing that was missing was my rear support (typically use a wadded up jacket, but I was wearing it it was so cold, I need a good rear bag!) The results were fantastic from a velocity perspective and terrible from an accuracy perspective. I am not sure if it was me, the load, or both but it was not a good day. I am curious to shoot again with a rear support. I am wondering if my 20" 1-12 twist barrel is not stabilizing the bullet????

The loads were:

48.1 gr - 2505, 2513, 2498, ES = 15
48.4 gr - 2508, 2501, 2498, ES = 10
48.7 gr - 2517, 2538, 2514, ES - 24
49.0 gr - 2553

At 49 grains today the bolt was slightly sticky and with the pretty high jump in velocity, I did not shoot any past that.

With those on paper, I think I am going to back down to 46.9 gr and work back up in .3 gr increments and see if maybe I can find a sweet spot. I really want to stay around 2500 fps, but 25 fps either way is not going to make a bit of difference.

The only load that showed any promise was 48.7 were there were 2 bullets touching but the 3rd was 2" below them. I know the gun shoots decent as my 168 gr AMAX load shoots around .5-.7 all day long. I really think it was a factor of the idiot behind the trigger, but next weekend I will know for sure. </div></div>

I wouldn't get discouraged on your accuracy at this point. What I found on my rifle was that you just had to shoot it differently than with other rounds. I worked on different holding pressures, and even positions on my shoulder. I've read online at several spots (please don't ask me to reference them, it'll take me forever to find them again) that shooting the heavies well in the .308 requires a better technique due to the harder recoil impulse, and the longer barrel time. Without the rear bag, it's very possible that the rifle began to recoil off the target before the bullet ever actually left the barrel.

Your results of sticky bolt lift at 49.0gr is right where I had my problems too on my 20". I shoot 48.0 now, however i'm starting to wonder if that's even too hot. I've got a few more things that i'm going to try out with this load. I just wish that I had the ability to load up some rounds, shoot them, see the results, load up some more rounds, shoot some more. I could get load development done in a day if I just had the ability too with range access, and a mobile reloading station.

Branden
 
#246
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

a hair off topic here, but what would you think of this powder and these bullets in a 7.62x53R ( Finnish target rifle BTW, a solid .5 MOA rifle. not a standard mosin, a Finn mosin m28/76)

It shoots them decently with n150, But this combo might be of some advantage for iron sight prone matches.
 
#247
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

finally got out today to test out these loads..

GAP surgeon rifle, Obermeyer 24" barrel 1-11 twist
32 degrees F outside

Lapua brass, CCI br2 primer, 208 AMAX .010 off the lands

47.5 grns got me 2610 fps..with ES of 4 and 300yd accuracy was a 5 shot group around an inch(.33 moa)

I went up to 48 grns...got 2650 fps...but accuracy suffered and had slight pressure

So I guess i got lucky my first time out..gonna load some more to test further.

may have to change my F-T/R load from the 190 berger..
 
#248
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Inspired by this thread I got some RL17 and some 200gr Accubonds (no AMAX which is what I will end up shooting) to see whether this was going to work for me.

46.0 to 50.0 in 0.5 gr increments. I loaded to mag length which seems to be about 40 thou off. Stopped at 50 as 'compressed load' was beginning to get silly.

Rifle is a Sako 75 Varmint 308 win 23-1/2" 1:11 twist.

Atmos 1 deg C (~freezing) 75% RH P 1024mB.

Much to my surprise I didn't blow myself up, in fact even at 50 gr I only got mild pressure signs, but it delviered 2600 fps on the nail at the chrony 12ft away. I was a bit concerned about stability but it wasn't a problem.


My experience with reloading and commercial cartridges is that I come up a bit short. So I am hugely impressed with this, 2600 fps behind a 200 gr is a great load. I chrony'd some Federal Vital Shok 150gr SP and it was only delivering 2700 fps MV.


This load would put the 308's performance in excess of Federal's 300WM heavy loads never mind the 30-06. Now if I had one of them what could I do with RL17?

I have a 270 which is now in danger of becoming a 30-06
 
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