Range Report 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Pretty much all the load workups I've done the velocity increase was fairly linear. In fact, as the powder increased past max, the velocities actually stabilized. Basically no net gain for further powder increases.

The powder is made in Switzerland. The Swiss will not put their name on anything unless it is perfect!

I seems the barrel would more than likely last as another cartridge shooting the same bullet at the same speed.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

The Savage is bedded. It took between .1 and.2 off the groups I shot prior to the bedding. I think it's time to stick something sharp into the mouth of a really good shooting rifle! GULP!

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I just cut the throat out. I went from an oal of 2.740 to 2.890. I used the "old" factory Savage barrel as a template. Dave Kiff is a genius! I can now have 50.0 gr of RL17 in a case and a 210 Berger seated .005 into the lands and it is compressed only somewhat. No CRUNCH like with Varget. I will load up some cases in .5 gr increments up from about 46.0 and head to the range in the next couple of days. I'll be looking for pressure signs. I'll use the chrono too and post results.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's interesting. I got a smaller increase from 49-50, and a big increase from 50-51 too.

20.5" bbl
Win Brass
CCI 200
208 AMax, moly'd
3.00" OAL
RL-17
46 gr - 2380 fps
47 gr - 2430 fps
48 gr - 2480 fps
49 gr - 2530 fps
50 gr - 2570 fps
51 gr - 2645 fps
</div></div>

You're velocity on your 49gr load is identical to what i've gotten with Lapua brass and .011 off the lands in my 20" mcGowen. Haven't gotten brave enough to go much hotter than what i've been shooting, i'm getting some ejector marks on my brass but normal primers and normal bolt lift, and the accuracy has been great. I wanted 2500fps, and i'm there, no need to go faster.

Branden

 

[rippit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I will be trying this combo out shortly in my 20 inch 10 twist Schnider barrel.

if I can get to 2500, I beat the 155 sceanar load by quit a bit in wind drift. looks good on paper , I guess we will see

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rippit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be trying this combo out shortly in my 20 inch 10 twist Schnider barrel.

if I can get to 2500, I beat the 155 sceanar load by quit a bit in wind drift. looks good on paper , I guess we will see </div></div>

You shouldn't have a problem getting 2500, I just reviewed my chrono data from the last time out and topped out at 2587fps on a safe load, i've gone hotter and still wasn't getting pressure signs, however this particular load is accurate and gives me the velocity that i'm looking for.

Branden

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Just got back from the range. Pretty interesting stuff. Here's the meat and potatoes. This is the 210 Berger into the lands, multiple times fired win brass neck sized. CCI BR2 primers and the RL17. 2.185 to ogive. Should be in the lands~.005. Groups hovered around .5 to .75" I didn't measure the 1 and 2 shot groups. I shot these to measure speed, relative accuracy, and to see if there was any pressure signs.

47.0 2534 59ES, 30SD
47.5 2557 4ES, 2SD
48.0 2581 27ES, 13SD
48.5 2612 29ES 14SD
49.0 2628 19ES, 13SD (two shots)
49.5 2664 11ES, 7SD (two shots)
50.0 2682 11ES, 5SD
50.5 2718 (one shot only)
51.0 2733 17ES, 9SD

I had zero problems with pressure even at a short col with some significant compression. The loaded rounds did not "grow" overnight. These were intended to be 3 shots each, but it appears that the chamber I cut is just a hair to tight for some of the old, tired brass that I have. I'm pretty sure someone else could shoot better than I. I'm pretty sure I yanked 48.5 and 49.0.

This is a Savage 10 FP LE that I removed the factory barrel and put on a 24" Broughton 5C. The reamer was made by PTG as a tight no turn neck. I have minimum headspace. I'll measure the oal to the lands as I think there may have been a slight burr after cutting the throat deeper yesterday. If there was something there, it's gone now.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Good info.

Looks like we are all getting pretty similar performance relative to different barrel lengths.

I was wondering if my loose-assed Rem was giving flukey results but that doesn't appear to be the case.

This powder/bullet combo really makes a good case for a 24" (or longer) barrel in 308.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

2700fps from a .308 get's quite close to 300mag territory, awesome stuff!

Branden

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'm going to concentrate on the 49.5 area. The 51 gr. in my rifle is about max. Maybe if I cut the throat further, I'd be able to see less pressure, but the accuracy for now is at a bit lower speed/powder charge or so it seems. Still, a 210 at 2670 fps is certainly nothing to sneeze at! Compare the ballistics on JBM between a 155 Berger at 2930 fps.

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Its hard to believe the 308 case will throw 208/210gr pills that fast. What would your max range be within your velocity capabilities?

howdy

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

In local atmo, a 208 started at 2650 fps retains 1200 fps to about 1540 yards.

I like the way the 208 resists wind.

10 mph FV drift at 1000 yards (local atmo):

208 AMax at 2650 fps, 57"
155 Scenar at 2900 fps, 69"
175 MK at 2700 fps, 81"
168 MK at 2650 fps(FGMM), 100"

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In local atmo, a 208 started at 2650 fps retains 1200 fps to about 1540 yards.

I like the way the 208 resists wind.

10 mph FV drift at 1000 yards (local atmo):

208 AMax at 2650 fps, 57"
155 Scenar at 2900 fps, 69"
175 MK at 2700 fps, 81"
168 MK at 2650 fps(FGMM), 100"

</div></div>

I wish I had altitude on my side, I only get 1300'ish.

I'm going to go and cry over my max range inadequacy issues.

Branden

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Im with you Dust_Remover im only sitting at 1100ft ele. But its better then the boothill.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

In this case, altitude is your friend! My charts are based off a beginning altitude of 5100' and go up from there. My charts give me a 155 Berger at 2930 fps 1419 fps @1k. Energy and drift are 693 ft. lbs. and 79" respectively. Compare that to the 210 @ 2670 gives 1619 fps@1k. energy and drift are 1222 ft. lbs. and 56.5" respectively. Total drop with a 200 yard zero are within two inches at 1k also. Food for thought. The sound barrier comes in around 1450 yards for the 155, while the 210 hits it around 1600. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

We're only about 800' or so here, 29.3" Hg is what I just measured on the Kestrel which it says elevation is 550ft (reference alt 0), i've verified on maps that my house is just under 800'. Right now I have elevation envy of all you mile highers.

Branden

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Run set o;f chars for the same at 10k' your jaw will drop!

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

MontanaMarine,

Are you seeing any change in your 06 load for the 208/210grers. Just wondering. I dont think the same powder will work but maybe there is a better powder out there for the 06. Any ideas or thoughts?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I haven't tried RL17 in the 30-06 case yet. Probably give a whirl one of these days ouit of curiosity.

Right now I'm using 61gr RL22 under moly'd 208s. 2720 fps via 22.5" bbl.

I have a hunch RL17 might make about the same velocity with 55-56gr RL17.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I just got back from a match today where I used the 208's at 2560fps from my .308. Had some screwy stuff occur but regardless I determined that my true zero ended up being 219yards (.9" high at 200, used exbal to calculate corrected zero). I plugged in the information of weather and conditions into exbal, and JBM and got like data between the two, however the results of my shooting at 300, all the way out to 700 wasn't on par with what was calculated with a BC of .633 that many of you tested it to be. When I plugged in the published BC of .648 the data got MUCH closer. It's still not dead on though. I'm not 100% certain i'm going to continue with the 208's because I'm not sure my shoulder can take it, lol. I may do one more box of bullets and work on it a little more, but we'll see.

Branden

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I did my calcs with Quicktarget. The default .648 BC put me right on target for elevation at 1320 yards. 46.0 moa in local atmosphere.

With the Thruster on my 308, recoil fatigue is a non-issue.

 

[Lindy]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...29.3" Hg is what I just measured on the Kestrel which it says elevation is 550ft (reference alt 0),</div></div>

The BP screen has a reference altitude.

The altitude screen in the Kestrel has a reference window for sea-level barometric pressure. If you want to measure elevation with the Kestrel, you must tell it the SLBP.

The Kestrel has only a sensor which measures station pressure. If you tell it the altitude, it can calculate the SLBP. If you tell it the SLBP, it can calculate the altitude.

The altitude and BP screens are completely independent, and the settings of one screen doesn't affect the other.

If that's not clear, see:

Barometric Pressure and Ballistic Software

 

[dar1246]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I have some 208s coming this week. Will these work in a 1/12 or a 1/11.25 twist. Would like to shoot these (great B.C.s). I have some RL-17 that I would like to load with this.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I think they will work for you. They are flying fine in my 1/12 Remington barrel.

 

[dar1246]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Good. I just recieved some in the mail today. I should be able to load a few tonight. Thanks

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I decided i'm going to stick it out with the 208's. Since there are relatively few people that want to shoot them availability isn't a problem around here for the most part. I'll have to just 'man up' over the recoil.

If I can just get the correct BC and drop data I can do well in the match coming up next month.

These bullets do kinda seem to need to "go to sleep" after they go past the 100 yard mark. If I transposed the 2 first shots of my 200 yard group over the rest of the group after I made a elevation adjustment, my group would have been 1.3". Perhaps it would have been even better if I wasn't so upset over the adjustment problem to begin with, but after the turret adjustment that brought the group down to .9" over the bull the group was .56" CTC.

I still love the 2" vertical spread (excluding my pulled round down and right, exactly where I called it) at 700 yards. Loading for SD's seems like a solid plan, however loading blindly simply on SD's could be dangerous. What is that super load Sd comes in a scatter node in the harmonics of the barrel?? I myself haven't really successfully finding a 'scatter node' on my barrel, it shoots pretty much everything well, and some better than others.

I can get used to the recoil, i'll check out a should pad or something if I really need to sissy up. It's really hard to pass up a round that'll go 1500 yards supersonic (as long as the .648BC remains accurate). I need to get the opportunity to shoot these over a chrony at all ranges from 200 on back to 1000 and get the correct dope so I have enough information to determine whether what is being told to me is accurate. My biggest problemS???? No 1000 yard range nearby, a wife, oldest daughter, and youngest daughter. Some things aren't meant to happen easily no matter how much you "need" them too.

If only George (from GAP) would give me the opportunity to make this happen on his private range here in town. I can dream can't I?

Branden

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Pachmyer decellerator (sp), and or limbsaver. You could do a brake as well. I shot BOXES of factory fodder for the 300 RUM when I first got it. I was shooting a Sendero so it was a heavier rifle. But no brake and whatever recoil pad they put on those things 10 years ago. It was the very first centerfire rifle I owned. After about two or three years and hundreds of rounds, I bought a shoulder pad. This helped some. I put a brake on later and that helped a lot. The bad thing about the brake is the noise and the dirt it kicked up. I sould have make a nut to put over the threads so I could take it off and not bugger up the threads. My rifle is probably 15 lbs. Even with the 210's it is nothing like the RUM.

 

[dar1246]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I ended up with a load around 49grs of Rl-17. Over that I had pressure issues (bolt and primers had a little blow back). The accurcy was not that great at 49grs. I had better groups above 49grs. I may try to moly the loads. Any suggestions?

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

At 49 and 50 grains of R17, are you getting a compressed load with the 208? If so, how compressed? (slight, crunching powder?)

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Moly will lower pressure. I don't know what brass you are using, but Winchester is a couple grains more volume than LC or Lapua, and that will lower pressure a bit too.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

At 51gr I'm getting some compression in neck-sized Win brass, and a 3.00" oal. Basically the compression is the volume of the boat-tail. The powder is about at the bottom of the neck, and that's about where the bottom of the bearing surface is too.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Ok. So if you were seating it at mag depth (2.840"-2.860"), it would be a slight crunch?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

If I tried to push it down to 2.84-86" I'd probably deform the bullet tip with the seater.

 

[dar1246]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I seated the bullets to 3.00 COAL.
Laupa Brass trimed to 2.005
FGm210 prs

The powder is up into the neck area around 50grs on. I loaded some 175s smks with 52grs Rl-17 and the case was full but no pressure signs.

I have about 500 laupa cases. I could try using the Win brass, but don't really want to buy more brass. Will the moly coated help enough to lower the pressure?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

It might, I couldn't say definitively. Each rifle is a bit different.

 

[dar1246]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Never have moly but I will give it a try. Thanks

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Try a drop tube. You will be impressed how much more powder will fit into a given volume. I'm going to end up with a charge around 49.5 give or take a few tenth's with the 210 Berger/SMK. Mag length for me is 2.890. Mine still fit the mag. The powder charge is compressed, but I also loaded up to 51 gr as well and that still "fit".

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pachmyer decellerator (sp), and or limbsaver. You could do a brake as well. I shot BOXES of factory fodder for the 300 RUM when I first got it. I was shooting a Sendero so it was a heavier rifle. But no brake and whatever recoil pad they put on those things 10 years ago. It was the very first centerfire rifle I owned. After about two or three years and hundreds of rounds, I bought a shoulder pad. This helped some. I put a brake on later and that helped a lot. The bad thing about the brake is the noise and the dirt it kicked up. I sould have make a nut to put over the threads so I could take it off and not bugger up the threads. My rifle is probably 15 lbs. Even with the 210's it is nothing like the RUM. </div></div>

I'd like to do a brake, but the noise is the biggest concern. When I hunt, I don't wear ear plugs. Now if I were in the situation where I had time to put in plugs because the shot was long, and there was time to get setup and what not, then yes I would. Reason #2 that i'm not sure I want to do it is like this past weekend's match. There were a couple guys with brakes and I was avoiding getting setup next to them. Getting a face full of whatever got kicked up, and powder smoke wasn't giving me the warm fuzzy feeling for that shooter. I'm not sure I want to do that to another shooter.

The other side of it is that it would likely help me shoot better since I wouldn't be thinking about that recoil right before the shot.

Too many decisions to make.

Branden

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Are you guys experiencing exterior ballistic changes during extreme changes in ambient temperature of up to 20 degrees F?

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

The only other thing is to get a can. Less noise, less recoil. A lot more money. As far as brakes are concerned, your fears are well founded. Like I wrote before, you can get a removable brake and thread a nut onto the barrel that will protect the threads. That way you can shoot with or without. I never noticed a difference in impact either way.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

OK. Here's the rest of the work up. I think I have isolated an accuracy node. I shot 49.2, 49.5, 49.8, 50.1 grains of the RL 17 and 210 Berger combo. I used CCI BR2's and once fired and full sized brass. All of the loads were compressed. It seems as though this stuff likes to run real hot. This was all run thru my Savage/ Broughton 10 twist 24" combo. I'll have to say that they are three shot groups shot by two different people at the aim point. I'll post the 50.1 pic as it is the best group. 1/4 moa ish. This was shot at 200 yards and neither of us was comfortable on the bench, the bipod was too tall among other things. This combo wants to shoot! The top three are mine and the bottom are my buddies. It's a shooter! Run the ballistics on that! 63*F 5100 ASL 29.93" 2.19 SH
2721+
2688-
33 ES
2704 AV
12 SD

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

That'll work.

Great shooting and report. Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

[psinclair]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Nice shooting...looks like you've got a winner!!

.308s...unreal!!

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Taking the family out in the am to fill a couple of antelope tags. You think it will work?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'll be surprised if it bounces off.....grin.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Any one trying these with magnum primers?

 

[psinclair]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Should be fine antelope fodder.....tell us when its over and good luck.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

It worked fine. I'll post pics in the am.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Look in the "Hunting" section.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Something that's buggin' the crap out of me here guys and I can use some ideas, input, or anything else to help me make sense of it.

I had a match a week ago today where we were shooting from 100 back to 700 yards. Winds were a little crazy, but from my 6 at a peak of 6mph. Temp was 82 degrees, pressure was 28.46"Hg and RH of 50%. I was shooting the 208 amax's at a chrono'd velocity of 2560avg the thursday before the match when it was 79 degrees. Now at the match I used a G1 BC of .633 as was mentioned in many articles. Well at the match I got the following results;

200 - Scope zeroed out with the group centered .9" over bull, set my zero to 219 in exbal

300 - Called for 2.75moa, dialed 3moa only needed more like 2 after viewing target

400 - Called for 5.75moa, dialed 6moa but only needed ~5moa after viewing target

500 - Called for 9.25moa, I got wise and dialed back 1moa from calculated drop at 8moa after viewing target

600 - Called for 13, dialed 12 pretty much dead on (vertical stringing in group which was a poor rear bag setup)

700 - Called for 17, dialed 16, got the target and the group was still about 7" higher than the aiming point. If I would have dialed 15moa I would have been dead on.

I've been playing around with Exbal to try to get my numbers to match up, they're much better after entering in the high BC of .648 which is the published BC from Hornady. The numbers look much better inside of 600, however it's still calling for much more 16+ MOA elevation correction at 700. If I increase the velocity to 2600fps I get a elevation correction at 700 of 15.5moa. If I do a velocity of 2620 I get a much closer 15.25 but then the other numbers start to get funky. I know these programs are just suppose to get you 'close', however I want to have the numbers put in correctly that will spit out correct information.

Any ideas? I've reviewed all chrono data that I have for this load and it's been sitting comfortably at 2560fps. For it to jump to 2620 suddenly would be quite odd.

Branden