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.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
Great timing. After being frustrated with my rifle’s lack of ability to get good accuracy with Nosler 190CC, a friend at the range suggested I try the 185 Jugs.
I just started load development, but I have shot the first-ever 0.15 MOA (@215 yards no less) group this gun has ever produced. Granted it was only 3 shots (and I sure as heck wouldn’t call it a 0.15 MOA gun), but I have high hopes that this bullet will bring new life to an old gun. I have since heard that if your rifle won’t shoot 185 Jug well, then that barrel just may not shoot. Haha.
I’ll be going out later this week to refine load development.
Thank you very much! I hope it continues to go as well if not better. I will be waiting for further info if you will.
As coincidence you should ask. For some time I've thought about getting time as I've read a lot of good things about them. Couple weeks ago I got a great deal on them and started to do some development. Ran an OCW test and it looked like I found a good load at 48.1 gr of RL17 and followed up to verify it, but it didn't do as well as expected (could have been just a bad day at the range, though the 12mph wind didn't help). Am going to do some more work and get out this weekend and see how it goes.
By the way, the main reason I chose RL17 for a poweder was that I was looking for a powder that filled the case at 100% that would give me results at an accuracy node (using QuickLoad to assisted with getting there with minimum effort). Benchrest shooters report that a full case produces most consistent results, so . . .
Don't know what your cartridge specs might be, but if you're loading unfired or FL sized cases to a coal of 2.800, you might try around 40.5 grs, which is near SAAMI's maximum average pressure.
Looking at the hodgon online data they show max for a 308 with IMR4064 45.2gr with a 180 and 43.7gr with a 190, I dont think I was able to go that high with a 175 match king.
Yeah, I've always thought that upper limit was from a pressure perspective (as opposed to being able to physically get that much in). Too compressive. I can't physically get more than about 44.5 of 4064 under a 175 smk in lapua. Bullets start popping back out at some point. Shoots damn good out of my bolt a little compressed though, just gotta be careful of too much pressure.
That’s in Winchester commercial cases not Lapua. The former can take 2 more grains of powder than the latter.
Yea I was not clear, I meant the pressure not the case capacity, with that said the case capacity may also be an issue.
Technically accurate. But without knowing coal/cbto and fireformed size of the Lapua, can't really say that. Bottom line is that it's hard to put too much 4064 in a given case without a drop tube, at least for my applications.
Likewise, I got very good results with 41.5 gr of the 4065 with 175 SMKs when fire out of my 20" factory barrel. When I swapped barrel to a 24" SS Krieger barrel, I had to go to 42.5 grs of 4065 for it to work best.
So, barrel length can be a significant factor in just what load might work best in one's particular gun.
Indeed every rifle is different and loads need to be tuned accordingly. I had a Douglas 24" barrel. Federal cases, 210M primers, proper case prep, etc. If I did my part, I would get one hole groups at 100 and better then 1/4 moa at 300.
I got a question.. how is it these days getting supplies? Powder and primers? I figured Id ask before I dive back in the pool and buy equipment again. Back when I was in the game, primers were like non existent. Federal match primers were like a box of gold.. I did a quick google search and 4064 out of stock everywhere...figures...lol
I picked up an 8# jug of 4064 the week before last and the store supply didn't last long. For those who find it to get powder, If one stays persistent and keeps their eye's open, it's actually not too hard to find somewhere to get powder. . . . particularly if your timing is right
I read somewhere a few weeks ago that one of the reasons Varget is scarce is that recent military orders have drained the market, but by sometime in May the supply should be back in stores. I guess we'll see about that. ? When neck sizing, I bump the shoulders every time (just as I do with annealing) even though it may not be needed to chamber the cartridge. I do it to keep my loads as consistent as I can from one firing to the next.
I picked up an 8# jug of 4064 the week before last and the store supply didn't last long. For those who find it to get powder, If one stays persistent and keeps their eye's open, it's actually not too hard to find somewhere to get powder. . . . particularly if your timing is right
When neck sizing, I bump the shoulders every time (just as I do with annealing) even though it may not be needed to chamber the cartridge. I do it to keep my loads as consistent as I can from one firing to the next.
Yesterday, Powder valley had 2 8# jugs of 4064 in stock. It was gone this morning! I found a jug at Midsouth and ordered it quickly! lol Also got a brick of FGM210M primers! Should last me a bit once I get rolling.
Then I would get that kind of velocity using 41.1 - 42.0 gr of 4064 out of my 24" SS barrel (depending on seating depth).
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Did some load testing with my FN today.
Usung Federal gold metal match brass, 168 hornady eldm, cci200 primer. Velocity was out of a 24 inch barrel.Don’t know what happened in the first shot, chrono messed up. Started getting primer cratering at 45.8 and flat primers and cratering at 46.
I’m thinking of taking 45.1 grain and doing a seating depth test.
Usung Federal gold metal match brass, 168 hornady eldm, cci200 primer. Velocity was out of a 24 inch barrel.Don’t know what happened in the first shot, chrono messed up. Started getting primer cratering at 45.8 and flat primers and cratering at 46.
I’m thinking of taking 45.1 grain and doing a seating depth test.
Just a little FYI:
Putting the numbers you have shown, and having pretty much the same MV's you're showing, my QuickLoad app is showing the pressure at 67,240 psi using 46.0 gr. of Varget. Using 45.1 gr it still shows above SAAMI max pressure at 63,153 psi. Though these numbers are really nothing more than an estimate based on available information, I would be very careful about going any higher than 45.1 grs of Varget . . . particularly if that load happens to be used in a much warmer environment. As you search for a more accurate seating depth, seating longer will help lower that pressure. Again, this is just a heads up FYI.
I really appreciate the info, the fn bolt face makes it kinda tough to see pressure signs besides the primer, and bolt lift.
I have all these rounds seated at 2.850. My max mag length is 2.870. So can’t really go out in seating depth by much.
Do you think I should try a test around 44.3-44.5?
I ran those numbers at an estimated 2.840 COAL. For comparison's sake, if you going down to 44.5 gr, QL shows a pressure just under SAAMI max of 60,554 psi (plenty safe at a temperature of 70°F). At 95°F it shows a pressure up to 62,537 psi for the same load, just above SAAMI max, but that is probably still safe given you've started getting pressure signs well above that. Using your max mag length of 2.870, QL the pressure drop from 60,554 psi to 59,086 psi with an MV of around 2732 fps.
You might consider trying this technique: Pick a powder load (maybe like 44.0 gr) and test various seating depths to see which give you best groups. Then using only that seating depth, test various charges above and below that 44.0 gr. This will likely be at your highest accuracy node that is safe.
Based on what I'm seeing in QL, I wouldn't go higher than 44.5 gr so that I'd have plenty of room to work with and room for anything that might result in higher pressures. That's just me, though.
Can thank you enough for the advise. That’s what I will do then, drop down to 44 grains and work in seating depth .I ran those numbers at an estimated 2.840 COAL. For comparison's sake, if you going down to 44.5 gr, QL shows a pressure just under SAAMI max of 60,554 psi (plenty safe at a temperature of 70°F). At 95°F it shows a pressure up to 62,537 psi for the same load, just above SAAMI max, but that is probably still safe given you've started getting pressure signs well above that. Using your max mag length of 2.870, QL the pressure drop from 60,554 psi to 59,086 psi with an MV of around 2732 fps.
You might consider trying this technique: Pick a powder load (maybe like 44.0 gr) and test various seating depths to see which give you best groups. Then using only that seating depth, test various charges above and below that 44.0 gr. This will likely be at your highest accuracy node that is safe.
Based on what I'm seeing in QL, I wouldn't go higher than 44.5 gr so that I'd have plenty of room to work with and room for anything that might result in higher pressures. That's just me, though.
it doesn’t get too hot up here often, except July and August. But still don’t what to be over pressuring the gun. I would imagine if I stuck up at the high pressure primer pockets wouldn’t last long at all.
Anyone have a load for 168gr Barnes TTSX and Win 748 thats suitable for an AR10? I am currently building one (waiting on parts) and would like to get started by making some rounds for it.
I've got a 24" Krieger 1:10 SS barrel on my RPR and with 43.0 grs of H4895 behind 175 SMK's I was getting pressure signs with an MV of 2793 fps (Primer: Fed 210, COAL: 2.940, .003 of the lands, Temp: 88°F). My loads get single digit SD's and low teens for ES's and my best load for this powder was 42.0 grs, where I got a group of .294 MOA (typically though, they've run in the 3's and low 4's).
Ive got no pressure signs and im running about .5 moa out to 600yds when i do my part
Hmmm??? Makes me wonder about what differences their might be between our two barrel chambers and/or the difference in our powder's burn rates. I suspect it's mostly about the difference in burn rate, as there can be differences from one lot to another.
When I run some numbers through my QuickLoad app, it shows your load to be well under the SAAMI max and so not likely to so pressure signs (as you say) . . . even though I had to increase the burn rate a little to get the MV you had. When I run my numbers, I've had to increase the burn rate by a lot to get that much MV out of a 24" barrel and it does show I'm WAY over pressure. Even at my good load of 42.0 grs I'm just over on pressure. So . . . interesting to me that there can be such a great difference.
I don't have any more of the H4895, but have though about using it as it actually did well on paper and on the chrono. But now I'd like to get some to see if a new batch is more in line with the burn rate you appear to have.
I should note that all my load developement so far has been during cool temps, all below 60 degrees Fahrenheit so its possible i could have more pressure. Ive been using h4895 for couple years in different rifles and love the stuff and have found it to be very consistent lot to lot. What brass are u using?
For this powder I had used Peterson and Federal brass. Normally, I use Lapua. Both Peterson and Federal brass I used have very close to the same volumes as my Lapua.
Of course, that much difference in temperature (25-30° F) makes a difference . . . but not THAT much difference. H4895 is actually a pretty temperature stable powder.
I only had a one 1lb bottle of it to test. Apparently, it just one that is unusually hot. lol . . .now I want to try another to see how it compares.
Ah, the venerable .308win load. This was the first caliber I hand loaded for.
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: 155gr Lapua Scenar
Primer: CCI BR2
Powder: Varget 47.2gr
Seating: .007" jump (ogive oal measurement: 2.230"")
Barrel: 24" Kreiger (heavy)
Velocity: 2995fps 10 shot Ave ES=9 SD=3.5
Environmentals: temp=+25c R.H.=30% ASL=1124m wind=n/a
The theory behind the 155gr bullet is faster, flatter. At least this was the thinking five or so years ago. I will re-barrel this rifle soon, but with a 26" pipe this time. And with all of the high B.C. heavy bullets coming out in the past year and a half, I'll join in the fun by choosing something above 200gr.
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: 155gr Lapua Scenar
Primer: CCI BR2
Powder: Varget 47.2gr
Seating: .007" jump (ogive oal measurement: 2.230"")
Barrel: 24" Kreiger (heavy)
Velocity: 2995fps 10 shot Ave ES=9 SD=3.5
Environmentals: temp=+25c R.H.=30% ASL=1124m wind=n/a
The theory behind the 155gr bullet is faster, flatter. At least this was the thinking five or so years ago. I will re-barrel this rifle soon, but with a 26" pipe this time. And with all of the high B.C. heavy bullets coming out in the past year and a half, I'll join in the fun by choosing something above 200gr.
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I am load developing for my Rem700 build in .308 with 26" Kreiger barrel. I have chosen the 178 Hornady ELD-X as my bullet but I have some 175 Sierra TMK as well. I have Lapua brass. My goal is to stay supersonic to 1000yds with great precision. Does anyone have any current load data for the Hornady round? I am also interested in data on the TMK as a backup. Thank you for your help.
What powders do you have?
I run IMR 4064 and Varget. 41.8-42.2g in Lapua brass ( using 4064/Varget) with those projectiles listed is where many find a great load. 41.8g of 4064 gets me 2675 out my 26” barrel using the 178’s. At that velocity, with the BC of the Sierra or Hornady you will be good to 1,000 yards and beyond.
The lapua brass that I ran 48-49.5 CFE with the 168 eldm had no signs of pressure on the primers but after sizing with Forster die it wouldn’t chamber. I had to use my small base die to get it to chamber. My base diameter measured .4715 which is .0006 over saami. The Winchester brass good up to 49 grains but 45.5 & 50 pushed the base diameter to .4715. I’m guessing 47.5 grains in lapua will be max load without too much pressure but I will ladder 47-47.5 to see if I can find a sweet spot for lapua brass 168 eld cfe.
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I also worked up some 208 eldm with rl17 with Winchester & lapua brass. OAL was 3.055, br2, 47.5 grains rl17 at .010 off the lands in Winchester brass. The Winchester with 47.5 got 2602 FPS average & es 20. No pressure signs at all in Winchester brass. The lapua was also 3.055, br2, 46.5 grains rl17, & es 16. The lapua brass had no bolt lift, ejector swipes, no flat primers but the base diameter was .4715, so it stretched .0006 over saami. Both of those loads shot .5in groups & bucked the wind better than any 308 bullet I’ve ever shot.
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Question. I have a Remington 700p in .308. The free bore is long in this barrel. What Case overall lenght can I go to with a 178 grn ELDM and still have enough bullet in the case neck for adequate neck tension. it seems to be grouping better the longer I go I'm at .060 off the lands now. Thanks.
No one can really say for sure until the length of the freebore is known. I suspect you very likely could go out to .020 of if not closer . . .???
Some say seat your bullet in case at least as deep as bullet diameter.
Going to re-barrel my target .308win rifle. It will have a Krieger 1:9" 5R finished at 26". I was wondering if anyone has loaded any 200gr class bullets?
I am going to try the Berger Hybrid Target 215gr with Lapua brass and CCI BR2 primers. I will also be using Varget.
Anyone tried this combination? Most of the info on-line only shows bullets up to 208gr. I know the work up procedure. I'm just looking to see if anyone has experience with the heavies in the venerable .308win …(?).
I am going to try the Berger Hybrid Target 215gr with Lapua brass and CCI BR2 primers. I will also be using Varget.
Anyone tried this combination? Most of the info on-line only shows bullets up to 208gr. I know the work up procedure. I'm just looking to see if anyone has experience with the heavies in the venerable .308win …(?).
I don’t think there is much to gain by going heavier than a 208gr. You would have to push a 225 eld to 2450 FPS to equal a 208 at 2600 & it would be pushing the limits to get a 225 eld at 2400 or more. A 208 & 215 are probably the heaviest to go in a 308. I would pick the 208 because it’s cheaper with similar bc & I can find it at shops in town
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