5.56 AR Only Loads

[BCP]

I have found for my WOA barrels at least that 23.8 of Varget under a 77SMK seems to be the magic load, that extra .02 shouldnt make much of a difference but it pushes my SDs higher and my accuracy a touch lower for some reason despite all the service rifle people insisting that I just load 24.0 at mag length and forget it.

Service rifle scores are way more you reading the wind and technique, a more accurate load does help but I think it was just me having more experience too

Right now I've got a bunch of 69gr RMR bullets loaded up with TAC from 23-25gr just waiting for a not windy, not shitty day to test them

 

[buyobuyo]

I have found for my WOA barrels at least that 23.8 of Varget under a 77SMK seems to be the magic load, that extra .02 shouldnt make much of a difference but it pushes my SDs higher and my accuracy a touch lower for some reason despite all the service rifle people insisting that I just load 24.0 at mag length and forget it.

When I used to shoot NRA High Power matches, I shot 23.6 gr of Varget under 77 gr SMK loaded at mag length out of my 20" WOA upper.

 

[jLorenzo]

When I used to shoot NRA High Power matches, I shot 23.6 gr of Varget under 77 gr SMK loaded at mag length out of my 20" WOA upper.

What profile was your 20", did you have an A2 sight on it?

 

[buyobuyo]

What profile was your 20", did you have an A2 sight on it?

It is a heavy barrel with an unthreaded muzzle.

Yeah, it's an A2 upper. It has their fine adjust iron sights. I can't remember offhand if it's 1/2 or 1/4 moa adjustments. It's pushing a decade that it's been sitting in the safe.

 

[BCP]

Not really sure what to make of this, 23.5 was 2 touching and one an inch and a half away, 24 they are all touching, 24.5 crazy vertical stringing. All fired from a sled. All TAC and 69gr bullets. Finicky barrel I guess.

 

[simonp]

Not really sure what to make of this, 23.5 was 2 touching and one an inch and a half away, 24 they are all touching, 24.5 crazy vertical stringing. All fired from a sled. All TAC and 69gr bullets. Finicky barrel I guess.

View attachment 8554396

What were the chrono readings on those? SD’s?

 

[simonp]

With 77gr? I couldn't get 24.5gr in LC cases and 77's without severe powder compression. That might be your issue.

I actually just loaded a ladder of 69’s in LC brass to test tomorrow with Tac, 24-25 grains at .02 increments- no compression. Sierra manual has max below that bit out of a 20” barrel - I’m guessing 24.6-25 will find the sweet spot out of a 16” - hopefully at least

 

[memilanuk]

With 77gr? I couldn't get 24.5gr in LC cases and 77's without severe powder compression. That might be your issue.

He can probably still shake those rounds like a maraca with 24.5 gn of TAC in there

 

[memilanuk]

Man, I'm not seeing it at mag length. What am I missing?

That Ramshot TAC is a ball powder, and doesn't take up nearly as much room grain for grain of weight as Varget?

 

[memilanuk]

I am loading 223 right now. I'm going to switch Varget out of my autotrickler to TAC just to verify.

Hopefully it's an AT4, not an earlier version. The Lee PPM doesn't like ball powder of any flavor. DAMHIKT

 

[Jdowns0415]

Not really sure what to make of this, 23.5 was 2 touching and one an inch and a half away, 24 they are all touching, 24.5 crazy vertical stringing. All fired from a sled. All TAC and 69gr bullets. Finicky barrel I guess.

View attachment 8554396

My white oak barrel is the same way. Anything over 24.2 with 73-77gr it looks like a shotgun blast even though the brass isn’t smearing with LC. Luckily 24.0 is when I get 2700-2720 with 16 inch barrel. With the 73gr 24.2 gets me 2750. I’m using CCI 450’s with tac in LC brass and a 2.250 seating depth

 

[BCP]

What were the chrono readings on those? SD’s?

No idea if I get a bug up my ass I'll chrono them most of the time I'm shooting steel and bowling pins out in the desert anyways

I just want to get this rifle shooting at least one good load so far the only other OK one was 3/4-1MOA

These were FC brass weight is about 93gr the bullets are 69gr RMRs 2.250" I bought a ton of when they were 10cents each

Also they shake fine, not compressed, brass looks fine

 

[memilanuk]

This is what I'm seeing. Where my fingernail is on the second photo is where the powder is in the case.

So plenty of room for a fine ball powder to flow up around the boat tail as the bullet goes into the case, rather than squish/compress like with a stick powder

 

[memilanuk]

Not sure what you think you're seeing from those pics. All I said is that he had *room*, and probably not compressed. And I still say that, looking at the pics you posted. Whether that charge is a good idea based on the *burn rate* is a different matter. Personally, I'd say 24.5 of TAC behind a 77 is a little too spicy for me - but then I did most of my learning with the S77MK behind a 20" AR Service Rifle barrel. Some of the loads that bolt-gunners use today would have blown the primers clean out of the cases in an AR back then.

 

[memilanuk]

My original point was that there likely still room in the case, whether the load was too hot or not was not something I ever addressed. The two are not necessarily linked. The old .260 Rem was a good example - you could load those to where the primer would come clean out of the pocket, and still have *grains* of volume left.

And as for what the pics show... I 'see' that the base of the boat tail would indeed extend down to below the powder fill line. And I can 'visualize' that said boat tail would displace some of that powder off to the sides, along the slope of the shoulder.

For further evidence, he (BCP, not me) says:

Also they shake fine, not compressed

 

[memilanuk]

So what are we trying to argue about?

Because it's the 'Hide, and that's what we do?

 

[simonp]

And here's Hodgdon's data...
View attachment 8554506

How many more signs and indicators do we need...

But the poster with 24.5 grains was loafing 69’s……

 

[memilanuk]

That right there tells me about all I need to know about the quality of that data source...

 

[357Max]

Look at Western Powders 5.56 data.

 

[BCP]

Look at Western Powders 5.56 data.

Yeah they go to 24.8 with a winchester case, I'm not really sure what this other guy is going on about tbh

 

[Snuby642]

Not really sure what to make of this, 23.5 was 2 touching and one an inch and a half away, 24 they are all touching, 24.5 crazy vertical stringing. All fired from a sled. All TAC and 69gr bullets. Finicky barrel I guess.

View attachment 8554396

So I chased my tail on the 69g smk and your targets are looking like my first attempts.

You didn't mention your coal or cbto on that load. If you run them at mag lenght you are probably in the lands .

My ar's don't like that.

I think using a set of heavy bags on a bench, getting a good squared up position and adjusting your point of aim at rest will improve your shooting over results with a sled.

There is not a lot of recol and the sled is a pita to drag around.

 

[simonp]

So I chased my tail on the 69g smk and your targets are looking like my first attempts.

You didn't mention your coal or cbto on that load. If you run them at mag lenght you are probably in the lands .

My ar's don't like that.

I think using a set of heavy bags on a bench, getting a good squared up position and adjusting your point of aim at rest will improve your shooting over results with a sled.

There is not a lot of recol and the sled is a pita to drag around.

When I started picking up components for reloading and before I got more experienced, I bought a ton of both 69 SMKs and 77 SMKs, thinking that I would load three loads for each of my gas guns based on distance (55,69 and 77), I also thought that 69's would be an easy load like the 77's...............

My experience though has been that the 69 SMK is a harder tip to load then the 77 for whatever reason, some of my gas guns just wont shoot it well no matter what I have tried, some will shoot it moderately well but no where near what I expected or want.

I have never tried the 69 RMR bullet or any other 69's to be honest, I am trying to shoot the ones I have left and I will never buy more, will stick with the 77 SMK.

 

[Ex E6]

Yeah they go to 24.8 with a winchester case, I'm not really sure what this other guy is going on about tbh

Try 24.5- 25.0 Gr. N540 VV powder ,with either 69 Gr. or 77 Gr. pills and see what results You obtain .

I use NATO cases LC Norma and Lapua , you should get very favorable groups ,at least MOA or something is amiss , that barrel is severely fouled or not capable ?. I was using one of my 5.56X45 , a unencumbered PSA 20" ,so Not one of My Aero Precision platforms which I prefer . Powder evaluation to see what everybody likes .
The 6.5CM target shows differences of powder choices a little better . I generally shoot off a Bag or sand bags and use a dime to cover a group of shots . IF the dime covers #5 or more I'm happy .

Paper plate was done 29 years ago off the ground at a Sheriff's Dept. exhibition shoot ,where I demonstrated the proficiency of handloading out of a bone stock XM15 A2 20" Bushmaster . Winchester bulk 55 gr. bullets 25.5 BlC-2 powder . Vertical string Winchester white box crap . Got #15 under the dime at 200 Yd. using a Nikon Monarch 3 ,3X12X42 scope . Still have that setup and is one of the most accurate 5.56X45mm units I've ever owned . Go figure chrome lined bore no less

 

[jLorenzo]

Out with the 16" Ballistic Advantage stainless SPR
62gr Hornady FMJ w/ cannelure
Tac
Fed brass
CCI 41s

Shot with a 4x lpvo 2 moa center dot so happy with the bullet so far at 101y.

 

[BCP]

Try 24.5gr TAC with the lighter bullets 55-62 someone suggested it to me and it shot well out of all my rifles with 55vmax and 62gr cannelure bullets (COAL = wherever cannelure was)

 

[jLorenzo]

Try 24.5gr TAC with the lighter bullets 55-62 someone suggested it to me and it shot well out of all my rifles with 55vmax and 62gr cannelure bullets (COAL = wherever cannelure was)

I believe I have. Pretty much all charges shot almost exactly the same. I want to try something more than a 4x optic with a 2 moa dot. They all shoot right around 2 moa at 100y.

 

[Grand]

Lorenzo, those velocities are fast for a 16" barrel. Nay have to give TAC a try with Hornady 62g El VTs.

 

[jLorenzo]

Lorenzo, those velocities are fast for a 16" barrel. Nay have to give TAC a try with Hornady 62g El VTs.

Brass looked good, primers were just barely starting to flatten at the top end. Based on the feel of the primer pockets of the Fed brass I am using, I could see 3-4 firings on it at least.

 

[jLorenzo]

Just keep in mind your loading in the winter with a powder that's got a little bit of temp sensitivity to it

I have indeed which is why I am not settling on the higher ones. I just wanted to get a feel for the powder and find where the pressure starts.

 

[jLorenzo]

Another trip out with the 16" ballistic advantage stainless SPR barrel, 1/8 midlength gas.

Gusty L-R 8 - 15 mph
4x optic with 2 moa center dot
101y 53 degrees F
Orange dots are 3"

Gonna play with seating depth on the 62 fmj on a calmer day, seems to shoot about the same no matter the powder charge. Could be the 4x optic with 2 moa dot too. Not the best for precision.

 

[Ex E6]

Another trip out with the 16" ballistic advantage stainless SPR barrel, 1/8 midlength gas.

Gusty L-R 8 - 15 mph
4x optic with 2 moa center dot
101y 53 degrees F
Orange dots are 3"

Gonna play with seating depth on the 62 fmj on a calmer day, seems to shoot about the same no matter the powder charge. Could be the 4x optic with 2 moa dot too. Not the best for precision.

Dot's suck for precision shot placement ,IMO . I've never liked them as they obscure the aim point . I prefer MilRad and nearer this type of reticle . It's far superior for grouping shots, rather than dots .

 

[Ex E6]

With hand loaded ammo one should be capable of grouping #3 shots , which touch one another MINIMUM ,before barrel heat distortion wandering becomes problematic .

 

[jLorenzo]

Dot's suck for precision shot placement ,IMO . I've never liked them as they obscure the aim point . I prefer MilRad and nearer this type of reticle . It's far superior for grouping shots, rather than dots .

View attachment 8570859

Agreed, this particular rifle has just had a cheap 1x4 on it as a place holder for awhile, I can actually get it done decently on steel but it's time for an upgrade to a 1x6 or 1x8 with a better reticle.

 

[Ex E6]

Agreed, this particular rifle has just had a cheap 1x4 on it as a place holder for awhile, I can actually get it done decently on steel but it's time for an upgrade to a 1x6 or 1x8 with a better reticle.

Brother do your self a super huge favor , Grab a 3-15X44 Vortex Venom FFP at a ridiculous cost . Sport Optics on sale with additional 13% off a $650.00 scope for a tad over $400.00 bucks . I normally pop either older Nikon's or New Meopta scopes on MY rigs .

Being mid 70's now eyes aren't what they once were ,so I need all the help I can muster . Thankfully I've still got an iron rock steady grip but eyeballs are shady . Didn't wear any specs other than shades all my life , until I was like early to mid 60's .

So NOT complaining just facing reality . Next year I'll have to wear glasses to get MY DL ,first time ever