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5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
- Thread starter saojao
- Start date
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
saojao:
If the side-by-side portion of your drawing is reasonably accurate - and we compare it to the Anzio 20/50 side-by-side to a 50 BMG
it would appear you have approximately the same or a little less case capacity with a dramatically larger projectile (1690 gr vs less than 1000 as I recall). What is "producing" an MV of 3300+? Or has the MV been revised down? What have your field tests yielded?
saojao:
If the side-by-side portion of your drawing is reasonably accurate - and we compare it to the Anzio 20/50 side-by-side to a 50 BMG
it would appear you have approximately the same or a little less case capacity with a dramatically larger projectile (1690 gr vs less than 1000 as I recall). What is "producing" an MV of 3300+? Or has the MV been revised down? What have your field tests yielded?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
ELR,
I already told you what the Muzzle velocity was. Not sure how you're coming to your conclusions. I don't have the time to explain internal ballistics, or tell you why something works. We have already talked about this before. I have MORE case capacity than a 20mm Vulcan. The vulcan shoots a 1500 gr. Projo at 3350. I don't understand how your confused.190 grains is nominal.
ELR,
I already told you what the Muzzle velocity was. Not sure how you're coming to your conclusions. I don't have the time to explain internal ballistics, or tell you why something works. We have already talked about this before. I have MORE case capacity than a 20mm Vulcan. The vulcan shoots a 1500 gr. Projo at 3350. I don't understand how your confused.190 grains is nominal.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
i fail to see why people keep trying to break his balls over and over on this effort.
Keep it up saojo - building a concept firearm is a huge task to undertake.
i fail to see why people keep trying to break his balls over and over on this effort.
Keep it up saojo - building a concept firearm is a huge task to undertake.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Thanks! It takes 1000s of hours to get it right, literally, and thousands of dollars! To give you an idea, the forming dies were over $3,500. Just about to pay for a $500 trigger job on the rifle. ELR knows how I'm reaching my velocity. We have had numerous phone conversations about it.
When all is said and done this round and some sort of rifle will be available for public consumption as a title 1 firearm. Just like you would buy any rifle, fill out a 4473, and take it home the same day.
Thanks! It takes 1000s of hours to get it right, literally, and thousands of dollars! To give you an idea, the forming dies were over $3,500. Just about to pay for a $500 trigger job on the rifle. ELR knows how I'm reaching my velocity. We have had numerous phone conversations about it.
When all is said and done this round and some sort of rifle will be available for public consumption as a title 1 firearm. Just like you would buy any rifle, fill out a 4473, and take it home the same day.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
any expected time frame on when you will be able to actually take this beast out?
any expected time frame on when you will be able to actually take this beast out?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy M40a2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>
Wow. Now that is cool. saojao, have you considered using a rebated boat tail design on projectile?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy M40a2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wow. Now that is cool. saojao, have you considered using a rebated boat tail design on projectile?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I will be headed to California for a "detailed" test in the coming month. It will be filmed with a phantom camera so we can actually see the projo coming out of the barrel,as well as partial projo flight. As far as a rebated boat tail, im going to stick with what I have on hand and make changes as we go.
I will be headed to California for a "detailed" test in the coming month. It will be filmed with a phantom camera so we can actually see the projo coming out of the barrel,as well as partial projo flight. As far as a rebated boat tail, im going to stick with what I have on hand and make changes as we go.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Jon,
What kind of "details" are you testing for, and do you have reason to believe that the GSC projectile tail will need modification?
Jon,
What kind of "details" are you testing for, and do you have reason to believe that the GSC projectile tail will need modification?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Jon,
I hate to be insistent on a response from you, but you did incur an obligation to remain in communication consequent to the meeting you arranged at Shot last January. That would be the one in which you sat down with Tim Janzen (Barnes R&D Engineer), and I for the purpose of ordering ZA projectiles to use on this project. As I recall, that was your sole reason for flying in from Virginia. I spent considerable time going over the design defects of the 1,690 grain projectile that you gave me... item by item.
You wanted a ZA sample that would approximate the configuration of the envisioned 14.9 mm, and on condition of confidentiality I allowed you to take a ZA50/6.0-M.
All was wonderful until one of my beta testers reported that Anthony Pienkowski had acquired this bullet (which is not publicly available) at Shot of all places.
When I brought this to your attention, you assured me that it was "sitting on (your) desk", at which time I requested it's immediate return... to which you agreed. One week later it still had not arrived, and I called you again. You claimed that mail just moved slower from your part of the country.
Now Jon, I have been patiently trying to get this cleared up privately, but when you proved unresponsive there remained no option but to call you out publicly... especially when the centerpiece of your project is not quite so central anymore:
"Forgot to mention... Its important for people to understand we built the whole rifle around GS Customs projectile... we desinged the case around the projectile Gerrard designed. It really allowed the GS team to come up with the highest bc possible while still being stable." (Per addendum to your first post in this thread)
Now I do not anticipate you coming clean at this stage. Even a returned bullet is no solution as it has undoubtedly been up on at least one comparator. You should be aware that every ZA projectile across all calibers, and caliber lengths, is mathematically derived in all design aspects. If any of th proprietary elements find their way into your evolving "14.9", then your project is headed for a rocky future.
Jon,
I hate to be insistent on a response from you, but you did incur an obligation to remain in communication consequent to the meeting you arranged at Shot last January. That would be the one in which you sat down with Tim Janzen (Barnes R&D Engineer), and I for the purpose of ordering ZA projectiles to use on this project. As I recall, that was your sole reason for flying in from Virginia. I spent considerable time going over the design defects of the 1,690 grain projectile that you gave me... item by item.
You wanted a ZA sample that would approximate the configuration of the envisioned 14.9 mm, and on condition of confidentiality I allowed you to take a ZA50/6.0-M.
All was wonderful until one of my beta testers reported that Anthony Pienkowski had acquired this bullet (which is not publicly available) at Shot of all places.
When I brought this to your attention, you assured me that it was "sitting on (your) desk", at which time I requested it's immediate return... to which you agreed. One week later it still had not arrived, and I called you again. You claimed that mail just moved slower from your part of the country.
Now Jon, I have been patiently trying to get this cleared up privately, but when you proved unresponsive there remained no option but to call you out publicly... especially when the centerpiece of your project is not quite so central anymore:
"Forgot to mention... Its important for people to understand we built the whole rifle around GS Customs projectile... we desinged the case around the projectile Gerrard designed. It really allowed the GS team to come up with the highest bc possible while still being stable." (Per addendum to your first post in this thread)
Now I do not anticipate you coming clean at this stage. Even a returned bullet is no solution as it has undoubtedly been up on at least one comparator. You should be aware that every ZA projectile across all calibers, and caliber lengths, is mathematically derived in all design aspects. If any of th proprietary elements find their way into your evolving "14.9", then your project is headed for a rocky future.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Got the rifle back from the smith. (Trigger job)looks good! Tommorow some brass will arrive from Warner Tool. Will check to make sure head space is good, and thenthe next step is the drive from D.C. to Cali!
Got the rifle back from the smith. (Trigger job)looks good! Tommorow some brass will arrive from Warner Tool. Will check to make sure head space is good, and thenthe next step is the drive from D.C. to Cali!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
After reconciling with saojao, he was kind enough to respond to my inquiries.
Q1. (Given my comments about the side-by-side with the 50 BMG), "What is "producing" an MV of 3300+?"
A1. Very large (by powder weight) powder charge, blended powders, and 25 mm shell primers/ignition system.
Q2: Or has the MV been revised down?
A2. No change in MV, in the range of 3300-3500.
Q3. What have your field tests yielded?
A3. Confirmation of the noted MV range with the 1690 gr GSC projectile.
I also asked (in follow-up to saojao's statement, "I have MORE case capacity than a 20mm Vulcan).
Q4. The side-by-side of your case and the Vulcan suggests (to me) that the Vulcan has substantially more "case capacity" (in grains of water). Correct? Please help me with the "MORE case capacity".
A4. In water grains my case is about 14 grains of water MORE than the Vulcan. [I removed MUCH of the Vulcan's TON of body taper to get there.] In actual powder load, my powder charge weight is slightly more than the Vulcan - because of the higher weight-to-physical-size of the blended powder.
Plus one additional follow-up question.
Q5. It would seem (to me) that "blended powder" is pretty tricky business, becoming even more critical to consistent performance as the difference in powder burn rates increases. Are the powders loaded one after the other (all of #1 and then all of #2), multi-layered (some of #1 followed by some of #2 followed by...), or blended completely prior to loading, or some combo or?
A5. The powder is loaded via a "vibratory method" - in the case, NOT before being put in the case. That is, the powder is loaded into the case and then vibrated to mix.
After reconciling with saojao, he was kind enough to respond to my inquiries.
Q1. (Given my comments about the side-by-side with the 50 BMG), "What is "producing" an MV of 3300+?"
A1. Very large (by powder weight) powder charge, blended powders, and 25 mm shell primers/ignition system.
Q2: Or has the MV been revised down?
A2. No change in MV, in the range of 3300-3500.
Q3. What have your field tests yielded?
A3. Confirmation of the noted MV range with the 1690 gr GSC projectile.
I also asked (in follow-up to saojao's statement, "I have MORE case capacity than a 20mm Vulcan).
Q4. The side-by-side of your case and the Vulcan suggests (to me) that the Vulcan has substantially more "case capacity" (in grains of water). Correct? Please help me with the "MORE case capacity".
A4. In water grains my case is about 14 grains of water MORE than the Vulcan. [I removed MUCH of the Vulcan's TON of body taper to get there.] In actual powder load, my powder charge weight is slightly more than the Vulcan - because of the higher weight-to-physical-size of the blended powder.
Plus one additional follow-up question.
Q5. It would seem (to me) that "blended powder" is pretty tricky business, becoming even more critical to consistent performance as the difference in powder burn rates increases. Are the powders loaded one after the other (all of #1 and then all of #2), multi-layered (some of #1 followed by some of #2 followed by...), or blended completely prior to loading, or some combo or?
A5. The powder is loaded via a "vibratory method" - in the case, NOT before being put in the case. That is, the powder is loaded into the case and then vibrated to mix.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I preface the following comments by stating exactly what I told Jon at Shot; As the "most powerful shoulder fired weapon in the world", this project can be characterized in a single word... "idiotic". As a potentially useful mounted cannon, he might interest someone in the cartridge for military applications... provided he gets a barrel with a twist rate of at least twenty calibers, and preferably tighter. I also suggested that he initiate a new thread that aknowledges the patent BS, and get serious about the opportunity to learn something from his efforts irrespective of commercial considerations.
I see that he is back to hawking this project as a sporting rifle available to all persuant to an ATF "exemption". I have read the so-called exemption. It is, in fact, a *clarification* permitting him to manufacture this gun provided he does not cross over into the military application with his cartridge. Does this raise any red flags?
I know some of you read this thread for entertainment value, and to you I apologize for a slight diversion. My comments are directed to those who believe the representations made by the crew responsible for this thread are *factual*. Without dissecting the entire presentation, focus on the post by ELR researcher:
- Q3: What have your field tests yielded?
A3: Muzzle velocities in the range of 3,300 to 3,500 fps.
The real answer is that Jon has never field tested this rifle. An earlier version was taken out without his prior knowledge, and absent verifiable controls.
- Q4: What is the comparative case capacity between your brass, and the Vulcan?
A4: 14 more grains water capacity in my case.
I am going by the photograph. The 14.9 mm case body appears to be ~80% that of the Vulcan in length. Eliminating the 1.7mm taper in this section yields a 32.5 cc volume. An unmodified Vulcan has a body volume of 39.5 cc. Assuming that projectiles are seated at the neck/shoulder junction, and that the two shoulder volumes are roughly equal, then the Vulcan has a 7 cc volume advantage. One cubic centimeter equals 15.4 grains water... do the math.
- Q5: How is high density loading achieved through the use of blended propellants?
A4: Vibratory consolidation within case.
Real answer, yes it is possible. Jon does not know yet because he has not field tested his loads. Two factors which are likely to work against him are properly graduated, and quantified, particle size, plus dissimilar propellant specific gravity. Poorly graduated sizes will settle the smaller granules to the bottom, as will higher density particles. Nitrocellulose alone varies by as much as 10%, and double base propellant ranges between 4% to 40% nitroglycerin.
By all means, enjoy the thread. Something good can come of this, but question *everything*. There is meager committment to accuracy.
I preface the following comments by stating exactly what I told Jon at Shot; As the "most powerful shoulder fired weapon in the world", this project can be characterized in a single word... "idiotic". As a potentially useful mounted cannon, he might interest someone in the cartridge for military applications... provided he gets a barrel with a twist rate of at least twenty calibers, and preferably tighter. I also suggested that he initiate a new thread that aknowledges the patent BS, and get serious about the opportunity to learn something from his efforts irrespective of commercial considerations.
I see that he is back to hawking this project as a sporting rifle available to all persuant to an ATF "exemption". I have read the so-called exemption. It is, in fact, a *clarification* permitting him to manufacture this gun provided he does not cross over into the military application with his cartridge. Does this raise any red flags?
I know some of you read this thread for entertainment value, and to you I apologize for a slight diversion. My comments are directed to those who believe the representations made by the crew responsible for this thread are *factual*. Without dissecting the entire presentation, focus on the post by ELR researcher:
- Q3: What have your field tests yielded?
A3: Muzzle velocities in the range of 3,300 to 3,500 fps.
The real answer is that Jon has never field tested this rifle. An earlier version was taken out without his prior knowledge, and absent verifiable controls.
- Q4: What is the comparative case capacity between your brass, and the Vulcan?
A4: 14 more grains water capacity in my case.
I am going by the photograph. The 14.9 mm case body appears to be ~80% that of the Vulcan in length. Eliminating the 1.7mm taper in this section yields a 32.5 cc volume. An unmodified Vulcan has a body volume of 39.5 cc. Assuming that projectiles are seated at the neck/shoulder junction, and that the two shoulder volumes are roughly equal, then the Vulcan has a 7 cc volume advantage. One cubic centimeter equals 15.4 grains water... do the math.
- Q5: How is high density loading achieved through the use of blended propellants?
A4: Vibratory consolidation within case.
Real answer, yes it is possible. Jon does not know yet because he has not field tested his loads. Two factors which are likely to work against him are properly graduated, and quantified, particle size, plus dissimilar propellant specific gravity. Poorly graduated sizes will settle the smaller granules to the bottom, as will higher density particles. Nitrocellulose alone varies by as much as 10%, and double base propellant ranges between 4% to 40% nitroglycerin.
By all means, enjoy the thread. Something good can come of this, but question *everything*. There is meager committment to accuracy.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Lol @ Noel. Just so everyone knows my case has 13to thou taper. I will keep the updates coming. I could care less what Noel Carlson or anyone thinks they know! Video, data, etc. Will all be up soon.
Lol @ Noel. Just so everyone knows my case has 13to thou taper. I will keep the updates coming. I could care less what Noel Carlson or anyone thinks they know! Video, data, etc. Will all be up soon.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
"... I could care less what Noel Carlson... thinks they know..."...
That is your response... really?
You "cared" on 1/3/09, when you first contacted me to ask me for help on projectile design due to your reservations about the GSC offering. You cared again on 1/01/12, when you explained that your mother's passing was the cause of a long period of non-communication. You cared again on 1/20/12 when you left Shot having passed on confidential material, belonging to me, to a would-be competitor which you obtained under false pretense.
Jon, you are walking the edge of a razor. You damn well better start caring what other people think.
"... I could care less what Noel Carlson... thinks they know..."...
That is your response... really?
You "cared" on 1/3/09, when you first contacted me to ask me for help on projectile design due to your reservations about the GSC offering. You cared again on 1/01/12, when you explained that your mother's passing was the cause of a long period of non-communication. You cared again on 1/20/12 when you left Shot having passed on confidential material, belonging to me, to a would-be competitor which you obtained under false pretense.
Jon, you are walking the edge of a razor. You damn well better start caring what other people think.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
What's this love hate thing you two have going on ? I thought this thread was about building a gun .
What's this love hate thing you two have going on ? I thought this thread was about building a gun .
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Noel,not going to even respon to your. posts.....making final preparations for the trip. Waiting on a shipment of new projos, powder, primers, and brass. Should be here this week or next week at the latest.
Noel,not going to even respon to your. posts.....making final preparations for the trip. Waiting on a shipment of new projos, powder, primers, and brass. Should be here this week or next week at the latest.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Puppypopper,
I am not entirely clear regarding the origin of your forum moniker, but it could be interpreted as confusion surrounding appropriate expression of sexuality.
Rest assured, there are no issues of that nature involved in any of my comments. This thread is not even about building a rifle for that matter.
Have an adult explain it to you.
Puppypopper,
I am not entirely clear regarding the origin of your forum moniker, but it could be interpreted as confusion surrounding appropriate expression of sexuality.
Rest assured, there are no issues of that nature involved in any of my comments. This thread is not even about building a rifle for that matter.
Have an adult explain it to you.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Really, interpreted, confusion, expression of sexuality.
Noel are finally coming out of the closet.
Good for you.
Now I know if I want to talk with an adult I'll just simply ask Saojao.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Really, interpreted, confusion, expression of sexuality.
Noel are finally coming out of the closet.
Good for you.
Now I know if I want to talk with an adult I'll just simply ask Saojao.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I remain highly expectant of seeing this project come to fruition.
BTW, here on the Hide they have this cool feature known as "Personal Message" often abbreviated as "PM". If you gals can't get along, why duke it out on the forum? I'm very interested in seeing progress made on this project...interested not so much in this lovers' quarrel.
Any updates? Do you have a web page/blog dedicated to tracking the progress of this project? I'd like to "show" a few friends what you're dreaming up and not ask them to sift through 15 pages of discussion. Just a thought.
Stay focused and let's see this beast in action!
-The Kid.
I remain highly expectant of seeing this project come to fruition.
BTW, here on the Hide they have this cool feature known as "Personal Message" often abbreviated as "PM". If you gals can't get along, why duke it out on the forum? I'm very interested in seeing progress made on this project...interested not so much in this lovers' quarrel.
Any updates? Do you have a web page/blog dedicated to tracking the progress of this project? I'd like to "show" a few friends what you're dreaming up and not ask them to sift through 15 pages of discussion. Just a thought.
Stay focused and let's see this beast in action!
-The Kid.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
HathcockWannebe,
Yes; PM's, e-mails, and phone calls are all great methods of communication. Mr. O'Niell's problem is that he has discarded them in favor of public confrontation.
The issue here is not seeing a project through to fruition, but theft of intellectual property as a means of augmenting technical incompetence. I see this project as inconsequential in the larger picture. What purpose is served in enlarging a barreled Savage action to a scale antithetical to its function? A modicum of common sense would have dictated a sliding breach block closure to knock off an easy seven pounds, and at least as many inches.
The only possible innovation was in the reach of the projectile. That much he got right, but only if it is a payload bearing shell. This is, after all, a cannon, not a "sporting" rifle... notwithstanding expectations of some observers. If Jon was a little more candid, he would say that he does not have the slightest idea of how to turn this into a shoulder fired system.
What he has shown an aptitude for is industrial espionage. This is going to take time away from my work, because now I have to deal with it.
Puppypopper,
You go right on looking for adult conversation from Mr. O'Niell.
HathcockWannebe,
Yes; PM's, e-mails, and phone calls are all great methods of communication. Mr. O'Niell's problem is that he has discarded them in favor of public confrontation.
The issue here is not seeing a project through to fruition, but theft of intellectual property as a means of augmenting technical incompetence. I see this project as inconsequential in the larger picture. What purpose is served in enlarging a barreled Savage action to a scale antithetical to its function? A modicum of common sense would have dictated a sliding breach block closure to knock off an easy seven pounds, and at least as many inches.
The only possible innovation was in the reach of the projectile. That much he got right, but only if it is a payload bearing shell. This is, after all, a cannon, not a "sporting" rifle... notwithstanding expectations of some observers. If Jon was a little more candid, he would say that he does not have the slightest idea of how to turn this into a shoulder fired system.
What he has shown an aptitude for is industrial espionage. This is going to take time away from my work, because now I have to deal with it.
Puppypopper,
You go right on looking for adult conversation from Mr. O'Niell.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
I personally like the idea of you calling him out in front of everyone he's been trying to impress for the last 16 pages. If you gave him unpaid-for property from your company that was stupid. If you verbally advised him of it's restricted usage as you say then at least that's something. But he's pretty much told you to take a hike (putting it nicely) in this open forum. If what you say is true I'd love to have the address of his future jail cell so I can send him cards with smiley faces and laughter.
Either way, I'm sick of the drama. I didn't subscribe to this thread so many pages back just to hear two grown men taunt and name-call each other like kids on recess. One thing is for sure I'd suspect though. One of you two is about to get the wind knocked out of them. I'd stay and watch but I can see this kind of BS every prime-time night on cable.
/unsubscribed
I personally like the idea of you calling him out in front of everyone he's been trying to impress for the last 16 pages. If you gave him unpaid-for property from your company that was stupid. If you verbally advised him of it's restricted usage as you say then at least that's something. But he's pretty much told you to take a hike (putting it nicely) in this open forum. If what you say is true I'd love to have the address of his future jail cell so I can send him cards with smiley faces and laughter.
Either way, I'm sick of the drama. I didn't subscribe to this thread so many pages back just to hear two grown men taunt and name-call each other like kids on recess. One thing is for sure I'd suspect though. One of you two is about to get the wind knocked out of them. I'd stay and watch but I can see this kind of BS every prime-time night on cable.
/unsubscribed
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Savager,
I agree that it was stupid to trust him. I have created alot of work for myself. I also agree that the drama should now move to a different venue.
Savager,
I agree that it was stupid to trust him. I have created alot of work for myself. I also agree that the drama should now move to a different venue.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
you'll be back Savage--it'll make the best seller list for sure -lies,espionage,theft,arrogance and guns
you'll be back Savage--it'll make the best seller list for sure -lies,espionage,theft,arrogance and guns
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, here on the Hide they have this cool feature known as "Personal Message" often abbreviated as "PM". If you gals can't get along, why duke it out on the forum?</div></div>
Dude, didn't you know? Above all else, the ELR section of SnipersHide is a case study in thread drift.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, here on the Hide they have this cool feature known as "Personal Message" often abbreviated as "PM". If you gals can't get along, why duke it out on the forum?</div></div>
Dude, didn't you know? Above all else, the ELR section of SnipersHide is a case study in thread drift.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Wow, now im an expert in industrial espionage. If Noel was truthful about everything the story would be slightly different. I. didnt steal anything from anyone!! Trust me when i say NOTHING has changed about the projos im using ....same ones from 16the pages back. If Noel wants to think there is some conspiracy is going on thats his business. Have you checked with your other "beta" testers Noel? They all have projos i dont. Keep acusing me of stealing and see where that gets you. I would NEVER in a 1,000 years use ANY of your designs in my projos. Dont worry. You are free to come see for yourself. Im not the one who has a collection of every GS Custom bullet made like you had at SHOT. I dont make projos. You do...
Wow, now im an expert in industrial espionage. If Noel was truthful about everything the story would be slightly different. I. didnt steal anything from anyone!! Trust me when i say NOTHING has changed about the projos im using ....same ones from 16the pages back. If Noel wants to think there is some conspiracy is going on thats his business. Have you checked with your other "beta" testers Noel? They all have projos i dont. Keep acusing me of stealing and see where that gets you. I would NEVER in a 1,000 years use ANY of your designs in my projos. Dont worry. You are free to come see for yourself. Im not the one who has a collection of every GS Custom bullet made like you had at SHOT. I dont make projos. You do...
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Please,
Someone challenge me to back up everything that I have said with written correspondence from Mr. O'Neill (thank you ELR researcher).
Jon, I do not consider you an expert in anything. Have you considered selling used cars?
Please,
Someone challenge me to back up everything that I have said with written correspondence from Mr. O'Neill (thank you ELR researcher).
Jon, I do not consider you an expert in anything. Have you considered selling used cars?
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Jon,
"I'm done with you..."...
You really do not seem to appreciate that this is no longer your call. In case the point has not been made clearly enough, your project is of no consequence. It is already doomed to failure, by virtue of the barrel that you specified, for anything close to 5,000 meters supersonic. As for the 1,690 grain projectile, even you were hedging on the suitability of that design just a few posts earlier, and for good reason...
My ongoing interest is limited to the fact that you obtained the restricted ZA under false representations, and placed it in the hands of a manufacturer who, thus far, has made a very dismal showing in second party testing of *publicly marketed* ELR projectiles.
You will be "done with me" when I say you are. In your flurry of renewed text messages yesterday, the assertion was proffered that mishandling of trade secrets is "mole hill" level mischief. Without making any judgements upon your innate intelligence, I am comfortable in concluding that you are ethically retarded.
You are free to minimize the value of your own work, not that of others.
Jon,
"I'm done with you..."...
You really do not seem to appreciate that this is no longer your call. In case the point has not been made clearly enough, your project is of no consequence. It is already doomed to failure, by virtue of the barrel that you specified, for anything close to 5,000 meters supersonic. As for the 1,690 grain projectile, even you were hedging on the suitability of that design just a few posts earlier, and for good reason...
My ongoing interest is limited to the fact that you obtained the restricted ZA under false representations, and placed it in the hands of a manufacturer who, thus far, has made a very dismal showing in second party testing of *publicly marketed* ELR projectiles.
You will be "done with me" when I say you are. In your flurry of renewed text messages yesterday, the assertion was proffered that mishandling of trade secrets is "mole hill" level mischief. Without making any judgements upon your innate intelligence, I am comfortable in concluding that you are ethically retarded.
You are free to minimize the value of your own work, not that of others.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Noel, why don't you just sue him if you want? And THEN come here to tell us about the ruling?
All this endless whining in a public forum (where nobody knows the history, or cares about it) is just an epic soap opera that reflects poorly on you.
Noel, why don't you just sue him if you want? And THEN come here to tell us about the ruling?
All this endless whining in a public forum (where nobody knows the history, or cares about it) is just an epic soap opera that reflects poorly on you.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Mr. Carlson:
I am the Virginia attorney that represents Mr. Jon O'Neill of JG Weapons. Consistent with the forum rules and good business, Mr. O'Neill will not reply to your stories and creative allegations, or any matter not specific to this technical topic of this thread, in the public forum.
I have PM'd you directly in more detail and ask that you attend to that. If you have a reply to me, please use a PM or the contact info in my separate note.
If anyone has concerns with Mr. Carlson's "charges" regarding JG Weapons, feel free to contact my by PM.
Thank you.
Michael Coster, VSB#23477
Michael Coster, PC
A Virginia Law Professional Corporation
Mr. Carlson:
I am the Virginia attorney that represents Mr. Jon O'Neill of JG Weapons. Consistent with the forum rules and good business, Mr. O'Neill will not reply to your stories and creative allegations, or any matter not specific to this technical topic of this thread, in the public forum.
I have PM'd you directly in more detail and ask that you attend to that. If you have a reply to me, please use a PM or the contact info in my separate note.
If anyone has concerns with Mr. Carlson's "charges" regarding JG Weapons, feel free to contact my by PM.
Thank you.
Michael Coster, VSB#23477
Michael Coster, PC
A Virginia Law Professional Corporation
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
Ahh....
Knew it was time for someone to "LAWYER UP"!
I only pop back to this thread every month or so in the hopes of actually seeing something...but I gotta admit, the "coming attractions" are getting kinda boring.
Till next month...
Ahh....
Knew it was time for someone to "LAWYER UP"!
I only pop back to this thread every month or so in the hopes of actually seeing something...but I gotta admit, the "coming attractions" are getting kinda boring.
Till next month...
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Do you think Horus will do a custom reticle install on this?
On a serious note, 5000 meter's got it. What optic out there supports that range?
-Sv
Do you think Horus will do a custom reticle install on this?
On a serious note, 5000 meter's got it. What optic out there supports that range?
-Sv
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I only pop back to this thread every month or so in the hopes of actually seeing something...but I gotta admit, the "coming attractions" are getting kinda boring.
Till next month...</div></div>
Roger that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I only pop back to this thread every month or so in the hopes of actually seeing something...but I gotta admit, the "coming attractions" are getting kinda boring.
Till next month...</div></div>
Roger that.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Heading out on June 16th to Santa Cruz CA for testing. I will be stopping in CO, to meet up with XLR to have the chassis done. First day of testing will be on June 21st-24th. Plan do do a whole write up of the test video etc. I have a pic of a round next to a 7.62, 5.56. The bullet needs to be seated another 3 drive bands deep, and the case is not fire formed, but you can get the basic idea of cartridge geometry. Let me see if I can get someone to post it.....
Heading out on June 16th to Santa Cruz CA for testing. I will be stopping in CO, to meet up with XLR to have the chassis done. First day of testing will be on June 21st-24th. Plan do do a whole write up of the test video etc. I have a pic of a round next to a 7.62, 5.56. The bullet needs to be seated another 3 drive bands deep, and the case is not fire formed, but you can get the basic idea of cartridge geometry. Let me see if I can get someone to post it.....
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Jon:
Brass is ready to load and ship. Forming and reloading die segments are done and ready to go. I'll have the seater assembly done in a few days time.( Tuesday) Schedule is tight, but it's gtg.
Dummy round looks impressive!
Alan
Jon:
Brass is ready to load and ship. Forming and reloading die segments are done and ready to go. I'll have the seater assembly done in a few days time.( Tuesday) Schedule is tight, but it's gtg.
Dummy round looks impressive!
Alan
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Bullet will be seated 3 more drive bands.Case is not fire formed.
Bullet will be seated 3 more drive bands.Case is not fire formed.
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
Looks like an oversized 6BR with a 300gr bullet!!!
Looks like an oversized 6BR with a 300gr bullet!!!
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gathert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things are shaping up around these parts.
</div></div>
Amazing work from Warner Tool Company. Thank you Alan & Dan! They are really the master minds behind this.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gathert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things are shaping up around these parts.
Amazing work from Warner Tool Company. Thank you Alan & Dan! They are really the master minds behind this.....
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought smoking crack was illegal...
My question, <span style="font-style: italic">why would you ? </span>
especially when you consider :
Radio + Predator Drone = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Not always on station or available.</span>
Radio + Artillery = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Artillery is basically useless in Astan due to restrictive ROE's and the time it takes to get it approved and fired. If it is bigger than a 60mm mortar, forget calling for it.</span>
Radio + Helicopter Gunship = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">They break station to refuel and the bad guys know it. BG's sit hunkered down until the birds are gone, then initiate movement or their ambush. Birds also get called off for other things like escorting a Col. from FOB A. to FOB B. to get their dick in the middle of what the TOC is doing, all while the teams in the mountains are stuck with no air cover getting ambushed. </span>
Radio + Fast Mover = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Limited amount of resources mean the chances of them being on station to hit a target that does not involve Troops in Contact is minimal. Unless you are a SOCOM Task Force, forget air being there, unless you are actively getting shot at. If the birds are on station, the BG's know it and won't do shit with them above. I have never been in a TIC when any CCA or CAS was on station. They do show up quickly once you announce you are in a TIC though,t hank you JTAC's! </span>
I can not think of one practical application to want to send a single round that far... because someone thought it up and says you can, doesn't make it practical.
</div></div>
Just thought I would throw a little insight out there.
We broke our M107's into two pieces and humped them everywhere due to the lack of range to targets, and limited amount of enablers to engage the bad guys. Most of the time they were too close to a qalat to do anything else besides launch a few API rounds at them, 2500m plus. They would show then blend back in, change clothes, or hunker down. When we had the chance, we shot. Didn't make any first round hits at that distance, but they would catch shrapnel from the round and it would slow their movement until the line boys could work their way up the valley to their location.
Having a rifle that could shoot those distances accurately would have been amazing, but I doubt the one that will would be tactically feasible in taking it anywhere up a mountain. Ounces = pounds and pounds = pain, and trust me, we endured the pain just to get more range over our xm2010's. Glad guys are out there trying to create a better system, just keep the boys on the mountain in mind, maybe it will help quell the bitching and help you guys remember what these weapons are for... making money, sure... killing bad guys, now that is a worthy cause.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought smoking crack was illegal...
My question, <span style="font-style: italic">why would you ? </span>
especially when you consider :
Radio + Predator Drone = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Not always on station or available.</span>
Radio + Artillery = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Artillery is basically useless in Astan due to restrictive ROE's and the time it takes to get it approved and fired. If it is bigger than a 60mm mortar, forget calling for it.</span>
Radio + Helicopter Gunship = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">They break station to refuel and the bad guys know it. BG's sit hunkered down until the birds are gone, then initiate movement or their ambush. Birds also get called off for other things like escorting a Col. from FOB A. to FOB B. to get their dick in the middle of what the TOC is doing, all while the teams in the mountains are stuck with no air cover getting ambushed. </span>
Radio + Fast Mover = More Effective
<span style="color: #FF0000">Limited amount of resources mean the chances of them being on station to hit a target that does not involve Troops in Contact is minimal. Unless you are a SOCOM Task Force, forget air being there, unless you are actively getting shot at. If the birds are on station, the BG's know it and won't do shit with them above. I have never been in a TIC when any CCA or CAS was on station. They do show up quickly once you announce you are in a TIC though,t hank you JTAC's! </span>
I can not think of one practical application to want to send a single round that far... because someone thought it up and says you can, doesn't make it practical.
</div></div>
Just thought I would throw a little insight out there.
We broke our M107's into two pieces and humped them everywhere due to the lack of range to targets, and limited amount of enablers to engage the bad guys. Most of the time they were too close to a qalat to do anything else besides launch a few API rounds at them, 2500m plus. They would show then blend back in, change clothes, or hunker down. When we had the chance, we shot. Didn't make any first round hits at that distance, but they would catch shrapnel from the round and it would slow their movement until the line boys could work their way up the valley to their location.
Having a rifle that could shoot those distances accurately would have been amazing, but I doubt the one that will would be tactically feasible in taking it anywhere up a mountain. Ounces = pounds and pounds = pain, and trust me, we endured the pain just to get more range over our xm2010's. Glad guys are out there trying to create a better system, just keep the boys on the mountain in mind, maybe it will help quell the bitching and help you guys remember what these weapons are for... making money, sure... killing bad guys, now that is a worthy cause.
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