5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Point being, is I heard this all before... the ultimate mission using ELR.

I was in the very first Special Operations Capable MAU, which became the MEU which in turn we called <span style="font-style: italic">Spread over Continents</span> --- so during that initial training back in 1986 with the 26th MAU (SOC) we received the very first Iver Johnson .50s and even then all the possibilities were related in an identical manner. The .50 was going to change the face of sniping, that system was big, heavy and more a novelty to us than a practical application of our skill set.

So, understand I don't say this with no background to reference. As well I work with a lot of units that have .50s -- they barely touch them. Sure they train with them, but mainly they prefer the practical applications found using the smaller cartridges, 300WM, 338LM, etc... I have even seen the 408 Chey Tac come and go -- the 2nd SHC featured an event with that system at 1250 yards.

Just because I don't chase ELR doesn't mean I don't have a foundation in it ...

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Where to train on targets at 2500 yards.......Hmmmmm, let's see......29 Palms?....Whiskey/Zulu Impact Areas in CamPen?....San Clemente Island?

Sometimes you need to think beyond the Rifle Range.

Marines have been training with weapons to engage targets 2500 and Waaaay beyond for decades. It's not a new paradigm.

 

[Tommy5.56]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

One question what kind of scope do you use for this set up? 3 miles is a long...effing way.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where to train on targets at 2500 yards.......Hmmmmm, let's see......29 Palms?....Whiskey/Zulu Impact Areas in CamPen?....San Clemente Island?

Sometimes you need to think beyond the Rifle Range.

Marines have been training with weapons to engage targets 2500 and Waaaay beyond for decades. It's not a new paradigm.</div></div>


Ah, been to CAX and we had our .50s there... they have a moving target system ?

Good luck with that... estimating target speed at that distance, especially with the extended TOF ...

I also went to Irwin with a Ranger BN, didn't see a moving target system there either during their training ...

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Yeah, moving targets are a real showstopper for training.

It's a wonder we can train tank gunners, and TOW gunners.......

 

[SiLo]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we desinged the case around the projectile Gerrard designed</div></div>What's the case head dia?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holding out on rifle pics until we are finished</div></div> I don't mind if it's not finished I want a pic!!

 

[bohem]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tommy5.56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One question what kind of scope do you use for this set up? 3 miles is a long...effing way. </div></div>

We did a little playing with the data that was provided, and my buddy put it through a Pejsa calculator.

With 100yd zero you need about 135 MOA to get to 5kyd, with a 1kyd zero on a steep rail then this could be done with the internal adjustment that is in a Henny, NF, etc. It takes about 115 MOA to get to 5k.

At 1k ASL, 15C and 2.18 G1 average the round is an RCH above Mach 1 at 5800 yd.

I can see certain merits to this system, though hitting a truck driving down the road 3 miles away isn't necessarily one of them. Another thing to consider is that in other scenarios where air and/or fire support aren't available for some reason (or realistic) this platform shows the potential for having higher chances of hitting at 3km or more and still retaining the necessary OOMPH to drill a vehicle, sitting aircraft, or enemy position.

The demoralizing effect alone would be incredible. Bullets landing for multiple seconds before anything can be heard, and depending on the suppression system, if anything would be heard.

The capability jump for ELR shooting and solving what is going on at those ranges is also a completely untapped realm for small arms (if you can really call this small arms anymore). Let's not forget that 200 years ago a 300-500yd shot on a man was considered ludicrous by the "civilized" countries. The Brits got a rude awakening when the country bumpkins started killing officers from previously incomprehensible distances and doing so without the aid of artillery.

Not everything that the military invests funds into is immediate battlefield application, as a research project alone this is pretty damn cool.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Funny thing is -- Range Control at Fort Irwin required a 4000m SDZ for their 300WMs, they wanted road guards as well and we weren't shooting anywhere near a road. I was flown out with the O's with the advance team to set up the range they were going to use... Look up Arrowhead at Irwin.

Anyway they have specific overlays to say where and how you can shoot, and it must be signed off by civilian contractors who don't know anything but what the overlay says.

An Artillery range is a different animal and NOT small arms training. I guarantee you were not getting creative where you dropped your shells. Tanks use a FIre Control Computer, and their ranges are also specific.

Again, this is not presented from a vacuum, when you go out and have to spend 8 hours to set up the range for the Ranger SNOTs because Range Control wants it done a specific way, well doing it a completely new way is a lot of work and not in their lexicon.

The rest of the BN was doing a Live Fire movement, you would have thought the world was going to end.


Montana you get a free slot to the next SHC... I'm interested for sure.

 

[bmt]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I can not think of one practical application to want to send a single round that far... because someone thought it up and says you can, doesn't make it practical.

</div></div>

PURE SPECULATION. . . . .

I have seen rock outcroppings off Coastal areas that have unobstructed views of "secure" buildings. The water beyond a mile is deemed safe and patrolled by air.

If a SEAL team could get to the rock (submersible), and await a target (stationary at a "secure" location) a hit could be made.

Again Pure speculation, but Kings walk on the beach.

Anyway, that's my just for fun Hollywood scenario. . . . . . .

BMT

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I am sure even the inventor of this system is smart enough not to try and sell this system as an anti-personal device.

he is talking about missiles and guidance, not Kings and Queens or even individuals on an extended battlefield. Hard Targets, not soft.

Only those who watch tv too much think in those terms. We shoot people that far because we are arrogant and we can, not because they need to be taken out or because they are threat to us. Just the act of identifying the target is a huge task...

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I could be totally talking out of my ass here but with a bullet that efficient that they only need 135 MOA to get to 5000yds would it be any different than shooting a moving truck at 1500yds with a .338LM? Not an easy shot but plenty doable.

 

[bohem]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

he is talking about missiles and guidance, not Kings and Queens or even individuals on an extended battlefield. Hard Targets, not soft.

</div></div>

This was the exact solution I could see the Navy wanting to experiment with, not hitting people. I used the British officers as an example we all can realize, nothing more.

As tough as some aircraft are they're overally very vulnerable when sitting still. I've worked on enough of them to know that a 3.5 oz solid showing up at Mach 1.5+ will wreck its day in a big way. Engines are notoriously easy to ruin with single object injestion and they're incredibly expensive to lose over a $12 rifle bullet.

 

[bohem]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could be totally talking out of my ass here but with a bullet that efficient that they only need 135 MOA to get to 5000yds would it be any different than shooting a moving truck at 1500yds with a .338LM? Not an easy shot but plenty doable. </div></div>

The TOF is very different. A 338 LM is using around 1.8-2s for that 1500yd shot, getting this round to 5km takes around 8s.

A truck going 30 mph is doing about 44 fps. You need to accurately judge the lead with your eye for appx a 110yd ahead of the vehicle, without any wind factored into the equation.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could be totally talking out of my ass here but with a bullet that efficient that they only need 135 MOA to get to 5000yds would it be any different than shooting a moving truck at 1500yds with a .338LM? Not an easy shot but plenty doable.</div></div>

Okay Mark Walhberg...

The lead on a truck with a 300gr 338LM going a nominal 25MPH is 17 mils at 1500 yards... let me know how that works out for you.

After that I am done, you guys discuss all you want, I'm convinced of its merit.

 

[poison123]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could be totally talking out of my ass here but with a bullet that efficient that they only need 135 MOA to get to 5000yds would it be any different than shooting a moving truck at 1500yds with a .338LM? Not an easy shot but plenty doable.</div></div>

Okay Mark Walhberg...

The lead on a truck with a 300gr 338LM going a nominal 25MPH is 17 mils at 1500 yards... let me know how that works out for you.

After that I am done, you guys discuss all you want, I'm convinced of its merit. </div></div>

As someone else asked earlier....wtf kind of glass are you even using to be able to even engage a target period at that distance.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

"If you could, over the last 25 years, name the situation where they used a team of people to go in over air power ?"

Falklands War 1982 (over 25yrs mind you) the British attempted to land a SF team in Southern Argentina so they could monitor and report back on departing aircraft going out to attack the Task Force ships. Mission failed because their helicopter was heard on arrival, they burnt it and E&E'd to Chile. I'm sure if there was an opportunity to take out aircraft or radar they would have as they went in with heavy weapons. As we saw in the same conflict in west Falklands the SF teams landed first by inflatables as a recce unit before a heavier SF force came in by chopper. Marched into the Argy air force base and put explosives in each and every Puccara aircraft. Left under cover from their own mortar teams having destroyed a double digit number of aircraft and supplementary equipment for no loss. It completely changed the dynamic of the future land conflict given these were ground attack aircraft within striking distance of the landing force and planned beach-head.

Both instances used SF teams over aircraft (which would have involved either Harriers off the carriers or Vulcan bombers air-refueled all the way from Diego Garcia and back...they tried that on Stanley airfield in the same war and it failed).

Technology has improved since then so it is possible these type of missions wouldn't be repeated today but note how many Iranian scientists are getting taken out by gunman/bombs (2 more this week)...yrs ago it was an Israeli airstrike that halted their nuclear programe. Today it is a small team on the ground using a scalpel.

"5000 meters is a long ways, but operationally, 2000-3000 meter engagements might be useful in a direct-fire weapon (as apposed to mortars). I'm not talking about "covert ops" but rather, regular fighting units employing a weapon from prepared fighting positions, outposts, rooftops, or other relatively overt locations."

I can't ever see a weapon like above being employed. The British in Afghanistan are already using the 105mm Light Gun in direct fire mode as Mountain Marine eludes to...the troops have stuck S&B on them and are using them from their FOB as an area domination weapon. Works well, is low cost, is already in theatre and in on instance the troops dragged it up a mountainside to a newly created FOB because it wasn't safe for a helicopter approach. Don't see what this new weapon would offer that isn't already in operation. Fun yes, practical...nope.

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I think your missing the point...the system basically triples the capabilities of the .50 BMG or 20mm for that matter...This is a purpose built rifle for very specific applications. As Im sure you are aware, as I posted earlier the Navy has been looking for an AMR for 10 years! Obviously the U.S. Navy does not think a AMR weapon is not practical or they would NOT be persuing one! The rifle will be 45-50 lbs, possibly even lighter if all things work out. The Barrett M82 weighs in at 32 lbs! Even shooting at ranges the .50 BMG normally does, our system will still have 3 times the energy. Just because it is capable of 5,000 meters plus, does not mean that it HAS to be shot at that extreme range everytime if even ever! Trust me... at 100 yards the bullet will still work lol. Lowlight I understand what you are saying, but at the same time you are not completely understanding the system. FYI, there are a couple of gentleman from Crane that have been behind this for sometime. I appreciate the lesson on the various stages of procurement within the Navy..I feel like, at this point, I have a pretty good working knowledge of how the DOD 5000 contracting phases work. Thank you for the insight though.

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Sorry I wasnt clear my mind was thinking faster than I was typing I meant to say that shooting the new 14.5 wonder mag at practical distances of 2500-3000 should be about the same as shooting the .338 Lapua at 1500. I didnt mean 5000 yards

"Mark Walhberg" that was below the belt

Is this rifle practical for the military? I dont know its not up to me or most anybody else here. Whould it be fun to have? Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[Extremist458]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I agree with the latter part of this discussion, but it started to go the wrong way. I don't think it was ever intended for bulk sales to Cabela's, but for more specialized usage. As saojao already mentioned, the military has been looking for a rifle like this. It does everything the M82A1 can do, but better. Yes, it's heavier, but it's not 100+ pounds or vehicle mounted; it breaks down into two parts (or more) and is portable, under 50 lbs., suppressed and very accurate.

Not really Anti-personal, but then again, Geneva doesn't approve of the 5-0 either. It is AM, with benefits...anti-grounded aircraft, tank, vehicle or whatever target might be in the way. I mean, take a look at the NTW-20/14.5 and Anzio Iron Works! They not only sell to many militaries across the globe, but cavilian sales as well.

One more thing to mention is this...think of it as Formula 1 for rifles. It's about building the best possible rifle, and let the shooters decide what they want to do with it. It's like the big diesle truck...you don't use all that power every day, but it's there when you need it.

Getting the pictures now, so coming soon (not at home).

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

The projectile used in this system is the most important part. With a BC of 2.1 or so it just does not slow down... The fact that GS Customs was able to design a projectile with such a high BC, that is extremely stable, is simply amazing. As I have been told by a good friend " people try to change everything about a rifle round except the most important part....the Bullet!" without this projectile the system would be completely moot!

 

[Guest]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Technology has improved since then so it is possible these type of missions wouldn't be repeated today but note how many Iranian scientists are getting taken out by gunman/bombs (2 more this week)...yrs ago it was an Israeli airstrike that halted their nuclear programe. Today it is a small team on the ground using a scalpel.</div></div>
A scalpel is having their own folks doing it on our behalf. When our Ally Dogs fail, or their teeth are pulled, then and only then do we need to risk open intervention.

I do believe there is a perceived need for this.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Jimmy..this system is basically a mutated version of my intended diplomat system. It is not something that some Joe blow just decided to build in his garage. There have been tons of conversations with various people in their particular field of knowledge.

John I will give you a call when I get home or PM your skype Info.
Thanks

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

1941
14.5 anti-material rifle is old news... We found one in SE Afghanistan in early 2002 and it looks like this
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/antitank.htm
Not fun to shoot, Not fun to carry, Not accurate
An accurate bullet in a modern weapon may change that.

IT has been done before and the craze about "lucky" ELD kills has brought this thing around again... Most DM/sniping happens under 800 yds...
The ability to identify your intended target @ 5000 for a "Sugical Stike" Really? with the hubble telescope mounted on the rifle?
If the ROE doesn't allow for the use of Co level mortars on hostile targets... MK19, Browning M-2... The 240B can be used effectively as an indirect fire weapon FM3-22-68.

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Thanks Later..........

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

2700 is a little over half of 5000

 

[SiLo]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this system is basically a mutated version of my intended diplomat system</div></div> Still Vulcan case based?.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

No no, mutated lolol

 

[SiLo]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Cool thanks lol

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I'll bet that the technology used in making such a bullet will eventually trickle down to the civilian market and help to make future bullets more efficient.

 

[Sgt. Brumbaugh]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

While it sounds like a rifle that would be a lot of fun to play with, I don't see much of a military use for it. There would be such a limited scope of usefulness that for what ever mission that came up, there would probably be a better (currently availible) weapon for any particular mission, be it air, motor, arty, spec ops, etc, etc.

Like some one else has already mentioned the 50 and even the 408 are falling out of favor. Too big, too heavy, too loud, etc.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....The British in Afghanistan are already using the 105mm Light Gun in direct fire mode as Mountain Marine eludes to...the troops have stuck S&B on them and are using them from their FOB as an area domination weapon.....</div></div>

I love it.....grin

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Montana you get a free slot to the next SHC... I'm interested for sure. </div></div>

Sounds like your still humped up about me shooting a 308 past 800 yards, and having the gall to mention it here.

Get over it.

I'm just an average shooter, with a big backyard to shoot in.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread was certainly good for a laugh.

Why don't we just dismantle all the old guns off retired ships and let the guys carry them around??

</div></div>

well I'll let the guys at Crane know that. They must be out of their minds for searching for an AMR rifle for the past 10 years! 45 lbs. broken down into 2 weight packages is hardly comparable to artillery piece! Ymmv though...</div></div>

You tell the boys at Crane I'm laughing. Just like the dumbasses who decided we needed the 220 SMK instead of a dedicated higher BC bullet to reach farther. Nevermind accuracy of the .375/.408.

Why don't you just tell them I'm the dumbass now for not believing in them. Whatever!!!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The risk of capture and becoming a media circus far outweighs the benefits of a a single ELR shot...

I seem to recall when it wasn't close up, like person to person even the Israelis used a Jet on Iraq. As well as other places.

The world is not growing, it in fact is getting smaller, so distances are shrinking and not growing.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If the concept improves the accuracy of systems inside 2000 yards, go for it, but as been discussed, the size necessary and the weight is a very limiting factor. I for one dont' want to have to try and infiltrate a Nation State with the purpose of delivering a single round if I have to carry around a 35+ lbs system not including my personal support items. I think the CIA can pay a fringe group to bomb it and let them take the blame. </span>

All due respect back, -- I like to think in a practical fashion, not some fantasy of the ultimate mission to take out a missile secretly with no one being the wiser. </div></div>

I know it's not right to reply right after yourself, but I wholly agree. We, the ground pounder type, have enough problems fighting at 100-1000m let alone equipping a "super-team" to carry in a light artillery piece to do the job of a sniper weapon. I'm impressed as hell at the Brits doing what they did shooting two "insurgents" {my pc side says I can't use more derogatory terms} @ 2707 yds. But, the point is the war is a fingernail/eyeball/strand of hair war. Not some, "We need to to shoot 2000m every time." I will agree that part of the problem is guys like me who are impressed with that. Truth is you need a guy who is "snap-second" already squeezed the trigger 100-400 yds. Anything farther is mostly cake. Or icing on the cake. It's the guys danger close that need whacking.

The reason I'm laughing at Crane is because they think now that the Brits set a record the Americans have to one-up them. Stick to what we need. And that is getting good optics and training and filling Battalion Assets down to the point where they really do a company good!

This reminds me of that History channel show. Where they show Furlongs record shot, Reicherts shot....But no one seems to remember the Marine who stayed overlooking that alley and nailed like 27 from 150-800 yds. And looking at it. That one was the most important. He had a whole bunch of his people pinned down danger close. And a lot of those mid-range 300-600m shots were split second. They moved, he followed, he pulled the trigger...end of story, for them anyways.

I've seen a whole crapload of stuff come and go. This is the biggest waste of quality people I have seen lately.

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Got to love the critics! It is sometimes hard to think outside the box for some....

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

mabe this round will be finalised and developed and mabe some special forces will get to play with one and it will likley be used the smae way a 50 cal is deployed not mabe in a fixed position at a fire support base with sensors out to 5000 yards but honestly anyone that regularly shoots past 1000 yards knows the enviremental factors that come in and past 2000 yards it is another ball park. I am building a 375 Viers mag and that should get past 3000 yards i will play with it because it realy is a toy. the problem will be the sighting have you ever looked at something 3000 yards away through a scope and then tried to use the cross hair to aim at the target even thethinest cross hair above 40 power almost completly covers a target. So if it is used for hard targets and they are 5000 yards away call int he air support if it needs a surgical shot get within 1000 yards with a spec ops team and nutrilise the thread with a higher probability of the shot doing what it is expected to.

Even if this shoots moa at 5000 yards that is just under 50" i dont know if i would be able to say that is precision it is not so you may as well use another type of delivery system. Also if the special ops do get to play with one if it is to hard to transport and set up how then do you get the sensors forward of your position?

Just a pipe dream i think that is will ever be adopted after the prototypes get fielded to actualy units it will go into the big bin full of great ideas that realy dont do anything that another system already in use will not do better.

I say good luck making it because some rich people will have to buy one just to say they have the biggest and baddest rifle so there will still be a limited market and then they will take it to the range and shoot 20 gallon drums full of water at 100 yards and enjoy the moment.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got to love the critics! It is sometimes hard to think outside the box for some....</div></div>

Dude! It's like we're standing ass deep in mud and you're saying "Wow, look at the stars...." We need to look right in front of our feet for starters then stretch out. We need to fulfill the mission we set out to do before we stretch it past what matters.

I think "outside" the box all the time. I'm just not all happy about your rainbow ride of great long range artillery carried on the backs of our troops.

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

The rifle is up and shooting... Wouldn't really call it a rainbow ride! You must really think this weighs 300 lbs. Just wanted to share what alot of really talented people have been working on for some time. They all believe in it and are really excited, as am I. We will be at Crane and Aberdeen in the very near future. If the Navy takes it and runs with it so be it.... If not, it's fine by me as well. I love doing this stuff, and working with people on the cutting edge! Sometimes looking up to the stars as you say, will help us get out of the "mud" we are sinking in...For those interested stay tuned, for everyone else resume shooting your .308s...

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

The "rainbow ride" is specifically people who dream up crap like this and Worse: GET THE FUNDING TO DO IT. Especially when we're still struggling a lot of times with money for the line unit sniper/observer. Who would do a lot of good. What are you gonna shoot at 3000-5000m in Afghanistan?? Most of the worst firefights I'm told (by friends and aquaintences who've been there) are within 500m and closer. Troops go in to search a village and get ambushed while ass deep in it. A big long range rifle isn't going to do you any good. Maybe, just maybe if you got some better optics at the company level you could have ten precision shooters in your platoon providing supporting fire for troops going into these tight little villages. The worst single thing I've come up against is pushing for a basic better round and rifle. Apparently, that isn't needed but a multi-million dollar uber-long range rifle is...? Again, I totally question the priorities here. We don't have this for the troops, we don't have that. But hey, hold on~ We now have the "Rainbow rifle" with magical powers that only costs.....

saojao, I'm getting the feeling you are nothing more than a bean counter, or bean-counter mouthpiece. You need to spend some time behind the lines and come back and tell us how packing that great big rifle worked so well.

It's pretty hard for you to understand that one weapon isn't going to win this fight. I predict this weapon will be more ineffectual than the Sgt. York ADA system.

Again, though, let me say I'm impressed with what the Brits did at 2707 yds. I'm impressed with long range. The "brains at Crane" declined to go with this weapon. But it can't substitute for the day-in day-out need for short and medium range rifles that can be stretched to long rifles. When you dedicate long range rifles you just limited their capability.

 

[GO-FASTER]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

If its big make it bigger
If its fast go faster
if its bad make it badass!

cant wait to see it

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Montana you get a free slot to the next SHC... I'm interested for sure. </div></div>

Sounds like your still humped up about me shooting a 308 past 800 yards, and having the gall to mention it here.

Get over it.

I'm just an average shooter, with a big backyard to shoot in.</div></div>

No I think you act like you know it all... I shoot 308s past 800 too and have just as big a backyard as you... I shoot a lot of other things... you just think you know it all and only really guess while you float around in your particular pond... FYI the post above he wasn't complimenting you, he was saying they are shooting arty in a straight fashion. As in it's nothing new, and why create or argue for a new weapons system like you are when you can use a 105mm ?

You act like I can't walk out the door here, a 5000+ feet, I am willing to bet I have a lot more stuff to shoot a lot farther than you and your half assed 308. or that I don't actually work with these units you claim to know about . I think it is comical how you talk with authority and then go out and shoot rocks on the side of a hill and claim accuracy and know how.

Look how many are backing up what I have said... D'uh.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I don't think that anyone said that this is going to be a "sniper rifle" just that this caliber has an incredible range.
Yeah this sounds like a crazy idea but crazy ideas are what evolves the military industry, projects like these open new ideas and I wont argue with that.
I thought my friend was crazy when he wanted to design a weapon that tracked sound. Years later he developed one that could take out a column of tanks with a single missile that had ton of pods in it that each pod traveled to the sound of a distinct engine noise and took out that engine of the tank.
Northrop was working on a project yrs ago that used a 35mm auto cannon that would be used as a stationary sentry platform for the borders in Afghan. These would be located in mountain tops in heavily fortified concrete bunkers that had a remote lifespan of 2 yrs before being/needing serviced. A system like that could cover a huge range and was to use a triangulation optic system.

Perhaps when on a patrol I like the sense of mind of having an op watching my ass even if they are far away. I'd rather have them have the capabilities of supporting me and my team than having to have the excuse that they are out of range.

But to be honest I doubt systems like this will ever make it to production but I try to have an open mind.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

And for the record, again... because it appears the peanut gallery missed it the first time I wrote it...

I look at this like Benchrest, they are fantastic R&D for the everyday shooter. They develop stuff that does trickle down to use after it gets proven by the benchrest field.

I would hope, and talking to some of these guys, (not exactly these guys, but similar, these guys) they will tell you, I push for the development and technology to trickle down to things like a better .30 cal or some other caliber. If you can design a 1000gr bullet with a BC of 2, you can design a better .30 cal with a BC over .525, although they want to come back with some crazy twist rate.

A lot has changed on the battlefield, even in the last 10 years, so you have to ask how practical it is, or not because it clearly pays to do these things. I mean IBA got a million dollars to chop the barrel on a Remington 700 to 18.5' and change the stock... so why not collect your million for proving you hit something at 5k. Just hope the guy from Crane doesn't retire first.

But I do believe these are great tests beds, just not practical real life weapons systems... what comes after this will be the better mouse trap.

 

[groper]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
... If you can design a 1000gr bullet with a BC of 2, you can design a better .30 cal with a BC over .525, although they want to come back with some crazy twist rate.

</div></div>

This is exactly what i am working on... results very soon

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I can see Saojao's suggestion that this could be a naval borne weapon as more credible than a land based one. For a start, having the weapon on the height of a deck will allow much greater visability (presuming flat seas) to that of a prone shooter at ground level who can barely see 3k yrds before the curve of the earth takes the target away. Yes, naval sounds more credible but I still don't buy it. There isn't a navy in the world in the same league as the USN in terms of size, technology or deployability. Granted the USN is probably over-equiped for certain types of low tech warfare but this sort of weapon wouldn't have stopped the USS Cole attack and nor would it be practical in dealing with Iranian high speed gunboats or the CG with drug running rigs. The recent Somali priate sniper shot of the back of the warship was probably made with a 308 (i'm guessing on that but i bet the range was less than 200-yrds). The navy has a vast array of existing weapons that are light yrs ahead of any other nation when it comes to delivering presicion at distance but the good old deck mounted GPMG is extremely effective for close defence (not to mention in situ at the moment, low cost to operate and extremely easy to train crew to use) and anything further out is typically dealt with by helicopter given the moving nature of the target at sea.

I can tell you for one that if I thought I'd developed a successful weapons platform there is not a hope in hell I would be bringing it to the attention of a forum like this where the number of potential customers who can afford to buy, operate and have the range to utilise this weapon is probably no more than a handful. However, if i was thrilled that I'd spec'd a weapon that might secure me additional funding to push the barriers further and perhps make a name for myself I would be posting here like crazy.

 

[blksno]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

This is a late night rambling from a completely inexperienced individual (me) when it comes to long range or even the practical application of military arms, but come on guys, this is no different than building a race car that goes 400 miles an hour when what we should be focusing on is a car that will get 100 mpg.

The practical use for a 400mph car is probably only for showing off, holding records and winning medals...but that doesn't change the fact that innovation and achievement are what the US uses to thrive.
If this new rifle doesn't make it to the field or even to the military, it doesn't change the fact that the IDEA has the potential to unlock doors decades down the road either for ELR or the recreational shooter and their .308.

It just seems a little close minded to discredit something we don't think is necessary, and pout that someone else isn't making what WE think should be made instead.

Do I think it is currently necessary...probably not, but these guys are pushing the limits, finding answers for questions that no one has even bothered to ask yet, but just because no one has asked the question NOW, doesn't mean the question won't present itself later...and if it does, these guys will be ready.

 

[Swan]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

This just might be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever wasted 15 minutes reading. Surely the brains at Crane are looking at this system, thats what our tax dollars pay them to do. I think pushing the technological envelope in ballistics is crucial to development in ELR shooting. In fact, that is what kind of makes it "extreme", no?

But if you actually think team guys would ever carry this 50+lbs system into combat you are an idiot. There is nothing this system could do that UAV's could not do better and more accurately, with less risk.

Keep up the good work though. Glad my tax paying dollars are going to guns n boolits n manly shit.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

as above,...This is not a new project or infact a radical development.

Take some time to look at the Steyr 15mm saboted projectile project.

It worked and knocks this current "new development" into a cocked hat.

Steyr abandoned the project,...does that not speak volumes????

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Sandwarrior wow! Calling me a bean counter? Worried about our tax dollars going to R&D? Well let me put your worries to rest.... Crane is not giving out any R&D for ANY AMR projects...they have searched for 10 years and have not found 1 weapon to meet their criteria, So they will not fund these projects...I am doing this out of my OWN pocket! All R&D is paid by for by ME, and probably always be unless, the Navy chooses this as the new AMR. I could care less if I ever sell 1 rifle. The Navy has an open contract, and I have designed something, with the help of numerous people, that I believe will change ELR and AM....

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got to love the critics! It is sometimes hard to think outside the box for some.... </div></div>
You’re kidding right? I am probably just jealous because I will never be able to afford the thing on E-8 pay. Outside the box is doing a cross boarder op on a mountain bike with suppressed weapons. Like I said earlier the ability to recognize a threat target vs a non threat target at that range is impossible and to take the shot would be irresponsible/illegal.