5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)

[cubewarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Would be interested in seeing how this rifle would lash-up with the high resolution digital weapons sights being developed at RDECOM.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I think there may well be more sales to Hollywood than Washington; and that this will come back to haunt us all when it's sitting in front of a slew of media cameras on a table during a Senate Subcommitteee hearing.

Greg

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

You could set this up with any set of optics, but guessing where the subject (target) is going to be 8 seconds in the future... that is a whole other issue... The M-1 Abrams can engage targets out to 4k with a 120mm 6 pound fin stablized depleted uranium dart that leave the muzzle at nearly 5k fps I am not sure what the BC for that thing is but I know the computer that does all the work for a firing solution is really expensive.

 

[wadebrown]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I love thinking and working outside the box as there is often some trickle down years after for the normal folk. It may be that the trickle down will be the only truly useful product to come out of a program like this.

A couple of thoughts:
This definitely would not be a weapon for anti-personnel at 5km as the turbulence (mirage) in the atmosphere will not allow you to ID targets as humans. On hot and humid days you may not be able to ID anything smaller than a mid-sized building. Scopes do not eliminate turbulence unless you are doing adaptive optics systems and/or doing some very significant processing.

The TOF of 8 seconds makes hitting movers extremely difficult.

A TOF of 8 seconds will cause significant problems for any wind profiling system as the wind will in most cases change. We all know it does not take much change at 5 km to cause a miss. Carrying and powering the wind profiling system will add significant weight to the load out. See http://aeo.darpa.mil/Program/Details/advanced-sighting-system for information on the OneShot system which is a proven wind profiling system.

This might be a good round to try the DARPA EXACTO system (http://www.darpa.mil/tto/programs/exacto/index.html) with. Once again the load out would increase.

Instead of sending in a Predator for cross-border black op we should look at explosive payloads that would allow some of the smaller UAVs to take out targets. The Desert Hawk that is used by the UK has a two pound payload a range of 15 km and a loiter time at that range of at least 30 minutes. Stripped down system would be lighter than the proposed rifle system. No contrail to follow back to the launch point, electric motor and small size makes the UAV a low signature target. The targeting software is out there allowing the operator to choose the target using the realtime video RF'ed back. An onboard computer processes the video tracking the target allowing the plane to accurately fly into the target and go bang.

The issues of accuracy have been identified and discussed so I will not beat that dead horse.

Just my 2 cents,

wade

 

[bohem]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> trickle down to things like a better .30 cal or some other caliber. If you can design a 1000gr bullet with a BC of 2, you can design a better .30 cal with a BC over .525, although they want to come back with some crazy twist rate.
</div></div>

Like a 170gr bullet with a 0.6 G1 average BC that's stable in a 10tw barrel? It will be available soon enough, I'm working on sourcing a manufacturing house that will make them affordable instead of $1/bullet.

 

[Brutas]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "rainbow ride" is specifically people who dream up crap like this and Worse: GET THE FUNDING TO DO IT. Especially when we're still struggling a lot of times with money for the line unit sniper/observer. </div></div>


How many brand new M4's with Aimpoint's would one XM25 buy?

Just build a big catapult and launch bags of money out to 5000 yards, that would take out a truck too.

 

[jrob300]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior wow! Calling me a bean counter? Worried about our tax dollars going to R&D? Well let me put your worries to rest.... Crane is not giving out any R&D for ANY AMR projects...they have searched for 10 years and have not found 1 weapon to meet their criteria, So they will not fund these projects...I am doing this out of my OWN pocket! All R&D is paid by for by ME, and probably always be unless, the Navy chooses this as the new AMR. I could care less if I ever sell 1 rifle. The Navy has an open contract, and I have designed something, with the help of numerous people, that I believe will change ELR and AM.... </div></div>

saojao,

I appreciate your sense of innovation. And the fact that you're self funded. That frontier-breaking mentality is one of the things that made America great.

But Sandwarrior raises a very valid point that we've all too often lost sight of. We, as Americans, have spent far too much on the wrong things for far too long, and it has caught up with us. Our financial irresponsibility has nearly bankrupt us and unless each one of us does a better job of measuring our contribution and expenditure against the big picture, we may cease to exist as we are now known. Yes... it's your money, but how you spend your money affects others positively or negatively.

Looked at from that perspective, although I think it's a very cool concept in a very intriguing micro-niche, it might not be the best place to help our country right now. That may sound scary close to collective thinking, but we have just entered an era that we have never seen before in this country, and if we don't want to end up like Greece, we HAVE to start thinking more community-minded. We have a responsibility to each other for our future and that of our children.

.02

John

 

[TimK]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But Sandwarrior raises a very valid point that we've all too often lost sight of. We, as Americans, have spent far too much on the wrong things for far too long, and it has caught up with us. Our financial irresponsibility has nearly bankrupt us and unless each one of us does a better job of measuring our contribution and expenditure against the big picture, we may cease to exist as we are now known. Yes... it's your money, but how you spend your money affects others positively or negatively.

Looked at from that perspective, although I think it's a very cool concept in a very intriguing micro-niche, it might not be the best place to help our country right now. That may sound scary close to collective thinking, but we have just entered an era that we have never seen before in this country, and if we don't want to end up like Greece, we HAVE to start thinking more community-minded. We have a responsibility to each other for our future and that of our children.

.02

John </div></div>

You are on an extremely slippery slope with that comment and that thinking. You might consider reading <span style="text-decoration: underline">Atlas Shrugged</span> by Ayn Rand to see the final outcome of that philosophy.

 

[jrob300]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are on an extremely slippery slope with that comment and that thinking. You might consider reading <span style="text-decoration: underline">Atlas Shrugged</span> by Ayn Rand to see the final outcome of that philosophy.</div></div>

Tim,

I understand and appreciate your concern.

However, this is a thread derail waiting to happen and that was not my intent.

John

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Montana you get a free slot to the next SHC... I'm interested for sure. </div></div>

Sounds like your still humped up about me shooting a 308 past 800 yards, and having the gall to mention it here.

Get over it.

I'm just an average shooter, with a big backyard to shoot in.</div></div>

No I think you act like you know it all... I shoot 308s past 800 too and have just as big a backyard as you... I shoot a lot of other things... you just think you know it all and only really guess while you float around in your particular pond... FYI the post above he wasn't complimenting you, he was saying they are shooting arty in a straight fashion. As in it's nothing new, and why create or argue for a new weapons system like you are when you can use a 105mm ?

You act like I can't walk out the door here, a 5000+ feet, I am willing to bet I have a lot more stuff to shoot a lot farther than you and your half assed 308. or that I don't actually work with these units you claim to know about . I think it is comical how you talk with authority and then go out and shoot rocks on the side of a hill and claim accuracy and know how.

Look how many are backing up what I have said... D'uh. </div></div>


That's precious.

25+ years as an 0861 Fire Support Man, I DO know a little bit about a few wide open training/impact areas. I've even witnessed direct-fire artillery....who knew. I also have a fairly deep understanding of Fire Support Coordination, and the value of accurate and timely fire support, or the lack thereof.

I hardly know it all though, or even close. I am comfortable relating what I do with my 308 and 30-06 rifles. In the overall scheme of things, that's a fairly narrow lane. Seems a bit odd that you are troubled by my sharing what I do. But I don't know you, so I won't speculate.

I have no idea what "units" you are referring to that I claim to know all about, that you work with. Frankly, I don't give a shit either.


Have a great day.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> trickle down to things like a better .30 cal or some other caliber. If you can design a 1000gr bullet with a BC of 2, you can design a better .30 cal with a BC over .525, although they want to come back with some crazy twist rate.
</div></div>

Like a 170gr bullet with a 0.6 G1 average BC that's stable in a 10tw barrel? It will be available soon enough, I'm working on sourcing a manufacturing house that will make them affordable instead of $1/bullet. </div></div>

That sounds exactly what I asked for a year ago at SHOT... The guy needs to get me some and I will get them loaded for testing

 

[bohem]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> trickle down to things like a better .30 cal or some other caliber. If you can design a 1000gr bullet with a BC of 2, you can design a better .30 cal with a BC over .525, although they want to come back with some crazy twist rate.
</div></div>

Like a 170gr bullet with a 0.6 G1 average BC that's stable in a 10tw barrel? It will be available soon enough, I'm working on sourcing a manufacturing house that will make them affordable instead of $1/bullet. </div></div>

That sounds exactly what I asked for a year ago at SHOT... The guy needs to get me some and I will get them loaded for testing </div></div>

I'll send you some to test when I have them in hand and have tested them to verify that they're not going to be seating depth sensitive.

 

[Panic0317]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Sounds like a fun system.

Although I think it is a bit impractical for sniper applications. I don't even want to think about having to hump a 40 pound weapon plus ammo and the ballistic computer that it will no doubt need to be effective at such ranges. You are looking at 60 plus pounds not even including your normal kit that is organic to any sniper.

Afraid I agree with Lowlight...there are much more practical means to accomplish the same mission.

 

[flounderv2]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll send you some to test when I have them in hand and have tested them to verify that they're not going to be seating depth sensitive. </div></div>

Pick me, Pick me. Ill be interested to see what youve been working on Josh. Hope it works out for you.

 

[badbot]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

reguardless what we think or what is right our goverment is going to spend loads on stuff.

darpa is likely getting more mileage out of a dollar with the grand challenge tactic than the average angency.

I vote with letting this guy build his gun and if the navy gives him a grant, great! if they don't then he can call out the diplomat for a bragging rights shootoff. I want to watch but I have no idea if I will be able to see anything.

if someone wants to send me a box of 170gr g1 .61 pills i'll take them.

as far as bellyaching about humping 80 pounds being out of the question IIRC our guys have humped a lot more around the world in defending us and many others. we dont have much to say about that but I will listen to any of our guys actually doing the work and I will let them complain but I bet when they are done they pick it up and march on. they might not ever complain at all.

who called this a sniper rifle? I read hard target and navy.

I know nothing about anything, but this thread is sounding a bit too internet for me.
Good work on your projects everyone. I hope some where it helps our guys/gals.

 

[Tactical]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I commend everyone for thinking outside the box.

Most great advances came from someone doing just that.

Better bullets, powder and weapon systems come along because folks think outside the box.

I have to ask a few questions
1. Weight of system
2. Felt recoil
3. Barrel life


I have seen many things come and attempt to push envelope that failed on anyone of the three.

If it can not be carried it fails
If it recoils to much for avergare shooter to hit with it fails
If it burns bbl life quickly it fails

I hope this system passes these test but everything I have seen to date to beat 50BMG has failed one, two or three of these areas.

 

[SiLo]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimmy..this system is basically a mutated version of my intended diplomat system. It is not something that some Joe blow just decided to build in his garage. There have been tons of conversations with various people in their particular field of knowledge.
</div></div> Btw, when can we expect an SRS HTI in this cal

 

[Yasherka]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

This thread got me to thinking.

Before I retired (2005) we were looking forward to being supplied with the new laser-guided 2.75" rocket. Basically a guidance package compatible with deployed LRF/D's strapped to a Hydra-70 series rocket.

Just a swag, but I'd guess the package to weigh around 26 pounds, need only a rudimentary launch pad (a few beer cans to get it pointed in the general direction) and an LRF/D to guide it onto target.

It could be used in both point and area target roles depending on warhead...10/17 lb HE or flechette/M261 respectively.

And very few (if any) ballistic calculations or need to exfiltrate heavy equipment. And the components are (relatively) available now. I'm not sure how many guidance boxes are available.

Just musing...

One other thing: it has an estimated effective range of 10km

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/275in-rockets.html

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I commend everyone for thinking outside the box.

Most great advances came from someone doing just that.

Better bullets, powder and weapon systems come along because folks think outside the box.

I have to ask a few questions
1. Weight of system
2. Felt recoil.
3. Barrel life


I have seen many things come and attempt to push envelope that failed on anyone of the three.
If it can not be carried it fails

If it recoils to much for avergare shooter to hit with it fails
If it burns bbl life quickly it fails

I hope this system passes these test but everything I have seen to date to beat 50BMG has failed one, two or three of these areas. </div></div>

Great questions!

1. Weight will be around 45-50lbs. Possibly lighter if a few variables work out the way I want them to.
2. Recoil will meet Cranes 60 ft lb requirement. Due to recoil reduction in the stock, as well as, the suppresor system.
3. Barrel life is in the thousands, due to GS Customs projectile design and due to a few other things....

I really want people to understand that this is not, nor was it EVER intended to be a SNIPER rifle! It is an Anti Material Rifle. I also need to point out that this rifle exsists! It's not a dream...We are in the process of cutting the weight and having the suppresor done.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Wow, this had gone to a place Jon and I never thought it would go. Sandwarrior, that's quite some comentary. Jon is paying for this out of his own pocket, and that should be not only commended, but complimented as well, instead of spending our tax dollars! Not to mention how many people spend so much money for entertainment that have no return...dare I say gambling? How much to people spend are cars and trucks? Jon has spend less then 5K building this, and many hours, but he should be thanked for spending in the community we all (here) love so much! How many hours have we all spent on our own weapons that will never see combat? How man hours have thoses here spent here, on this forum, that are not using that knowledge for the greater good? Look guys, this is not a place for political beatings, nor is this project deserving of this...negativity. And let us not even challange Jon's character; he is a man of honor and curage, and simply a good guy. Those points that have been made have been concidered, weighed and appreciated, so thank you.

As for this being concidered this a waste...not even close. How about the military spending $30m and 10 years to develop a new higher B.C. 77 grain 5.56 projectile? Oh, GS handled that in 6 hours and less then $100 in copper. Oh, they do cost more...but how many bullets will it take to make up for the cost difference when 30 million is added to it? Not to mention 10 years of time and saleries!

And about this technology trickling down...it already has. How about 1.85 B.C 1100 .510 projectile, along with a 1.75 1033, or the 1.55 975 grainer, or 1.17 800 grain version? (12, 12.5, 13 & 15 twist respectively). Or how about a 1.243 B.C 375 414 grain bullet, or 1.01 295 grain .338, or .83 197 .308, or .4/.5 B.C. 68/69 grain 5.56 projectile that works in a standard 1:7 (first one is mag compatable) and gets 3000 fps...that will mimic the trajectory of the current 175 SMK out of the slower 7.62/M40 out to 900+? Look, this is all good stuff, and the technology WILL be valuable in all of us here, including the troops. Let's not belittle this project, or any one else here either for that matter, for their part in advancing our level of ability herein.

What makes me smile at all this is simply how much we all love the shooting sport, yet we are so criticle of it...

 

[jpmuscle]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Practicality aside the tech is interesting. pics yet?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And about this technology trickling down...it already has. How about 1.85 B.C 1100 .510 projectile, along with a 1.75 1033, or the 1.55 975 grainer, or 1.17 800 grain version? (12, 12.5, 13 & 15 twist respectively). Or how about a 1.243 B.C 375 414 grain bullet, or 1.01 295 grain .338, or .83 197 .308, or .4/.5 B.C. 68/69 grain 5.56 projectile that works in a standard 1:7 (first one is mag compatable) and gets 3000 fps...that will mimic the trajectory of the current 175 SMK out of the slower 7.62/M40 out to 900+? Look, this is all good stuff, and the technology WILL be valuable in all of us here, including the troops. Let's not belittle this project, or any one else here either for that matter, for their part in advancing our level of ability herein.

What makes me smile at all this is simply how much we all love the shooting sport, yet we are so criticle of it...</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold">Trickle down is good,</span> however if you want too much per round it will never take off,

If you can't supply in quantity or in a timely manner it will never take off

if you can't get someone to offer loaded rounds it will never take off

If you don't tell anyone but a few select ELR folks it's a micro niche and will never take off

We hear of lot of <span style="font-style: italic">whispers</span> about 10 rounds here, 20 rounds there, performing to expectations but that is really all it amounts too... <span style="font-style: italic">whispers,</span> because in the end <span style="font-weight: bold"> its so expensive and so limited in quantity</span> people will simply move on. You shouldn't be surprised by reactions <span style="text-decoration: underline">when your real focus is less than 1% of the shooting community.</span> Try opening that up to more people and I think you'll find a more receptive audience.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Man I just knew this thread was gonna go right where it has lol!!

The lovely thing about practicality is that it's perception of; change every so often. Sometimes those changes don't come until someone comes up with answer before the question.

I typing from my phone on wifi so sorry for not giving more of my opinion on this lol

John and Anthony...I will call you guys when I get back stateside.

 

[Tactical]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I hope this works out well for you.

As an anti material weapon it seems to have potential to me. So it is basically a crew served anti material weapon as you visualize it, correct?

It is always good to have stand off distance. The more the better.

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I don't know about crew served! It doesn't weigh all that much more than a m82...except we have 3x the capabilites if needed.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior wow! Calling me a bean counter? Worried about our tax dollars going to R&D? Well let me put your worries to rest.... Crane is not giving out any R&D for ANY AMR projects...they have searched for 10 years and have not found 1 weapon to meet their criteria, So they will not fund these projects...I am doing this out of my OWN pocket! All R&D is paid by for by ME, and probably always be unless, the Navy chooses this as the new AMR. I could care less if I ever sell 1 rifle. The Navy has an open contract, and I have designed something, with the help of numerous people, that I believe will change ELR and AM....</div></div>

The best thing I heard you say on this post was a few back when you responded to LL. And that was you are still looking for a better BC bullet that is practical out of a .308(?). Or, is that a .30 cal in general? But that's what I'm talking about. We need solutions to get us out of the mud we are currently bogged down in. The point of focus for development needs to be right in front of us. We don't need a moonshot here, we need a mud-rover.
I fully agree we need R&D in most areas. But, I'm tired of hearing about WOW! projects that don't have a connection to the here and now. I fully believe we need to push envelope in what I call, "Standard sniper rifle range". The .338 was a good step as proven towards this. Don't count on 2700 yd. shots every time though. But, what you can count on is an increase in the percentage of hits @ 1k-1.5k. I read on here some time ago, that first round hit percentages from 800-1k were something like 4% or less. What if we upped that to %20? Actually having a 4x better chance to hit that mountain top observer. Yet Crane ignores that field or comes up with a lame suggestion, to the tune of 49.5 mil. You see what I'm saying? We need to extend the capable range of our snipers with systems that are nearly compatible with the ones we are carrying now. It can be done because we do it here in the states. It's just that the military establishment, of which Crane is a part, want to spend R&D dollars on the proverbial moon-shot system.

<span style="color: #000099">Edit:

saojao, At no time did I ever come down on you for personally financing the development so far. But, what happens if this does get taken on? That's why my rant about Crane is because they've been key in a few decisions I don't like. Namely staying with the .300WM and the .220 SMK as the "long range solution". There is better out there. Why do we have to see this time and time again. I'm like <span style="font-weight: bold">C'mon Man!</span> But then I hear all the benefits (crap that I see through word for word) ....whatever.</span>

 

[aj_brown]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for this being concidered this a waste...not even close. How about the military spending $30m and 10 years to develop a new higher B.C. 77 grain 5.56 projectile? </div></div>

What round are you talking about?

Alan

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for this being concidered this a waste...not even close. How about the military spending $30m and 10 years to develop a new higher B.C. 77 grain 5.56 projectile? </div></div>

What round are you talking about?

Alan</div></div>

Mk262 mod 0/1 I believe

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Sorry, I just can't see a single relevant use for this weapon other than "fun factor". Why would the military invest money into training and materials for what would seem minimum 3 man crew to effectively deploy this system?

At 45-50 lbs is it a take-down rifle...barrel length well over 30" I'm sure, so one man hauling that up a mountain in shitty weather with a full load-out isn't happening.

Haven't even addressed the issue of optics and effectively identifying a target at 5k, which an Abrams tank has a hard time hitting a large target using a fire control computer with a gun that is fully stabilized eliminating any shooter error.

Systems this size were often used as anti-tank rifles, that is until a better way to kill tanks was designed. There are already better ways to succeed at the mission this rifle is intended for, with less risk to the guys humping it around. A UAV and a Hellfire missile seem to be doing this job with a lot of success right now.

I hate to rain on someone's parade but it took the military years just to upgrade their sniper rifles from .308 to 300 Win Mag when most of our allies had been using the 338 Lapua for some time.

Show me a military requirement that this system fulfills where something in the current inventory cannot do the job and aren't limited by atmospheric conditions, darkness, and expendability.

 

[aj_brown]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for this being concidered this a waste...not even close. How about the military spending $30m and 10 years to develop a new higher B.C. 77 grain 5.56 projectile? </div></div>

What round are you talking about?

Alan</div></div>

Mk262 mod 0/1 I believe </div></div>

Black Hills foot the bill on developing the Mk262 the only military spending was for safety release and type classification. It was in the field in less than 6 months.

Alan

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Anti-material.... LRF and a GPS=JDAM find a way to attached this weapon to the bottom of a UAV and you have home run

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior wow! Calling me a bean counter? Worried about our tax dollars going to R&D? Well let me put your worries to rest.... Crane is not giving out any R&D for ANY AMR projects...they have searched for 10 years and have not found 1 weapon to meet their criteria, So they will not fund these projects...I am doing this out of my OWN pocket! All R&D is paid by for by ME, and probably always be unless, the Navy chooses this as the new AMR. I could care less if I ever sell 1 rifle. The Navy has an open contract, and I have designed something, with the help of numerous people, that I believe will change ELR and AM....</div></div>

The best thing I heard you say on this post was a few back when you responded to LL. And that was you are still looking for a better BC bullet that is practical out of a .308(?). Or, is that a .30 cal in general? But that's what I'm talking about. We need solutions to get us out of the mud we are currently bogged down in. The point of focus for development needs to be right in front of us. We don't need a moonshot here, we need a mud-rover.
I fully agree we need R&D in most areas. But, I'm tired of hearing about WOW! projects that don't have a connection to the here and now. I fully believe we need to push envelope in what I call, "Standard sniper rifle range". The .338 was a good step as proven towards this. Don't count on 2700 yd. shots every time though. But, what you can count on is an increase in the percentage of hits @ 1k-1.5k. I read on here some time ago, that first round hit percentages from 800-1k were something like 4% or less. What if we upped that to %20? Actually having a 4x better chance to hit that mountain top observer. Yet Crane ignores that field or comes up with a lame suggestion, to the tune of 49.5 mil. You see what I'm saying? We need to extend the capable range of our snipers with systems that are nearly compatible with the ones we are carrying now. It can be done because we do it here in the states. It's just that the military establishment, of which Crane is a part, want to spend R&D dollars on the proverbial moon-shot system.

<span style="color: #000099">Edit:

saojao, At no time did I ever come down on you for personally financing the development so far. But, what happens if this does get taken on? That's why my rant about Crane is because they've been key in a few decisions I don't like. Namely staying with the .300WM and the .220 SMK as the "long range solution". There is better out there. Why do we have to see this time and time again. I'm like <span style="font-weight: bold">C'mon Man!</span> But then I hear all the benefits (crap that I see through word for word) ....whatever.</span> </div></div>

Laffin...

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

LOL again..

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Your first hand experience and second hand info is a fucking joke and downright insult to the professionals who bust their ass and actually give a shit. so please take your bullshit opinions and skewed stories and tell them to your buddies at your local gunstore there hero..

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL again..</div></div>

Yes, moon-shot was meant as a double entendre

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your first hand experience and second hand info is a fucking joke and downright insult to the professionals who bust their ass and actually give a shit. so please take your bullshit opinions and skewed stories and tell them to your buddies at your local gunstore there hero..</div></div>

first your laughing and now your bitchin'...which is it there country girl.

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your first hand experience and second hand info is a fucking joke and downright insult to the professionals who bust their ass and actually give a shit. so please take your bullshit opinions and skewed stories and tell them to your buddies at your local gunstore there hero.. </div></div>

Not sure who this is directed at?

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Thats allright cherry..while your playing make believe some of us actually work in this field..You aint nobody in this field so go pose somewhere else because no ones listening..

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your first hand experience and second hand info is a fucking joke and downright insult to the professionals who bust their ass and actually give a shit. so please take your bullshit opinions and skewed stories and tell them to your buddies at your local gunstore there hero.. </div></div>

Not sure who this is directed at? </div></div>

This was directed at sandyvagina..

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats allright cherry..while your playing make believe some of us actually work in this field..You aint nobody in this field so go pose somewhere else because no ones listening.. </div></div>

You seem to be pretty interested. And "cherry" isn't exactly the word I would use. Long past my prime would be a better choice. And since you like fucking joking around with me there country girl just what exactly is your experience? Front line experience? Combat jump experience? Scuba or any other SF qualifed schooling experience? Take your fucking joke AND TURN IT INTO SOME SOLUTIONS! I have a problem with the process here. You turned it personal. So be be it ass-clown. I'm not impressed with someone telling me they're coming on to the scene with a two piece 60-70 lb 5km range AMR. We have quality stuff that will already do that.

Or, maybe I completely missed the point of the thread and assumed this was about sniping not destroying equipment. In which case there are forums for armor and mounted infantry.

And FWIW, who are you to say anything to me even if I was a civilian with NO experience. When I talk to an ex-82nd soldier, a son of a friend of mine, who was sniper qualifed and made a 1500 yard shot with the .50, I take what he says that he may know what we need or don't.

Maybe you have a problem with me pointing out the obvious bullshit, like awarding Federal a $49.5 mil contract for the ammo and someone else the contract of about twice as much to modify most of the M24's to .300 Win mag and use the 220 SMK instead of going to a better bullet already being built? All that done on Cranes testing/say-so. Nobody has a right to disagree with you?

Just because you call yourself a "professional" doesn't mean I'm going to be impressed. It means first and foremost you better double damn well prove yourself to me. Because you're being paid extra for it.

 

[flyboy]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Why is it that every one of these ELR threads get to the point that they need to get locked.

Can't some of you just be happy that there are people out there making new cool shit and leave it at that?

 

[jrob300]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you have a problem with me pointing out the obvious bullshit, like awarding Federal a $49.5 mil contract for the ammo and someone else the contract of about twice as much to modify most of the M24's to .300 Win mag and use the 220 SMK instead of going to a better bullet already being built? All that done on Cranes testing/say-so. Nobody has a right to disagree with you?</div></div>

SW,

At the risk of an derailing unbelievably educational thread (what is it about over 1000 yds. that makes people become so antisocial?

) Perhaps I missed something along the way... wasn't the upgrade of the M24 + MK248 Mod1 a stopgap until something could be leveraged off the PSR? Perhaps I misunderstood.

John

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you have a problem with me pointing out the obvious bullshit, like awarding Federal a $49.5 mil contract for the ammo and someone else the contract of about twice as much to modify most of the M24's to .300 Win mag and use the 220 SMK instead of going to a better bullet already being built? All that done on Cranes testing/say-so. Nobody has a right to disagree with you?</div></div>

SW,

At the risk of an derailing unbelievably educational thread (what is it about over 1000 yds. that makes people become so antisocial?

) Perhaps I missed something along the way... wasn't the upgrade of the M24 + MK248 Mod1 a stopgap until something could be leveraged off the PSR? Perhaps I misunderstood.

John</div></div>

It won't be a stopgap. It'll be the standard for at least I'm betting, the next ten years.

And you're right. Getting anti-social over the range that people shoot is a waste of time and energy. It is what it is.

 

[KYS]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Always have to resort to the name calling......
I think when we all can visualize the results of this system we MIGHT believe it. Until then, its all speculation.


My dads best friend moms step sons roomates dog that belonged to a friend was a sniper a long while ago too. He should comment on this topic.....

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Pictures. It's all about pictures to me. I love to see new systems and firing results. Gives me inspiration for getting better.

I'm not sure why some people get all upset about insanely long distance shooting. As was said before, "it is what it is". Just unleash that at our enemies and chaulk one up for the good guys. I can't wait to see the Huble that you put on that thing!

 

[Tribe]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Dude builds a rocket in his garage... leans over the fence to let me know he's going to light er' up.... damned if I ain't gonna step out on the porch, to see if she'll fly... I don't recall the OP ever claiming he was out to save the world.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tribe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude builds a rocket in his garage... leans over the fence to let me know he's going to light er' up.... damned if I ain't gonna step out on the porch, to see if she'll fly... I don't recall the OP ever claiming he was out to save the world.</div></div>

Good point. My misunderstanding. I was under the impression this was already a "research project" being paid for by the taxpayer. It is an individual project, which I did not understand when I posted initially. However, my point remains the same. You will get my applause when I see you working towards something I feel is needed at this time and in the near future. If you work towards something like the item in this thread, good on you....I don't think we'll need it. And I really hope it doesn't become a "research project" as I feel those who get paid to solve tough problems on the battlefield need to stick to the 'here and now' and 'where do we go from here' perspective rather than the "look, I have something that shoots the stars...."

 

[Cybnew]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This was directed at sandyvagina..
</div></div>
You're lack of proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, not to mention your juvenile renaming of sandwarrior's name makes me believe that you are in fact unqualified to interject anything of quality to this discussion. If you are going to chime in, at least have something beneficial to say other than "Laffin" (It's spelled "laughing") or "Lol again"

At least Sandwarrior has taken the time to type out reasonable posts (whether you agree with them or not) which puts him far ahead of you.

 

[dferg77]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tribe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude builds a rocket in his garage... leans over the fence to let me know he's going to light er' up.... damned if I ain't gonna step out on the porch, to see if she'll fly... I don't recall the OP ever claiming he was out to save the world. </div></div>

Can't argue with that......

 

[saojao]

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Gentlemen, let's get this thread back on track. I have enjoyed reading the constructive criticism and compliments alike. Sandwarrior, we have been designing some other cartridges that might be right up your alley! I can appreciate the need for what your talking about. We have some pretty neat stuff that we will announce later. We just thought we would start with the biggest first

Personally, I have learned a ton from this project just by getting it to where it is now. I think more amazingly, we have companies like GS Customs that keep pushing the limits of projectile design every chance they get. I never realized HOW much goes into bullet design until I started this venture. Continue on...