• Site Updates Coming Monday

    We’re planning to start making changes bright and early on Monday so you might see the site down fir a bit, but no worries, we’ll make our changes and be back as soon as we can!

    VIEW THREAD
  • Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

5000 meters+ Supersonic (*Updated with pics*)

Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Good read...cant wait to just see the round compared to a .338LM or something for a size comparison. Is it going to be single fed or mag fed lol? But seriously the uso sn-9 10x42x80 with 200moa has enough uppity and zoom to see a target at 2.5-3 miles.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ouch!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But seriously the uso sn-9 10x42x80 with 200moa has enough uppity and zoom to see a target at 2.5-3 miles. </div></div>
That would have been my vote from the very beginning.

...and for what it's worth, if anyone is grumpy that $$ is being spent on something other than what YOU want or what YOU feel we need (weather it private or federally funded), then get your own loan and start designing it yourself. THAT'S HOW AMERICANS PROGRESS.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ouch!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But seriously the uso sn-9 10x42x80 with 200moa has enough uppity and zoom to see a target at 2.5-3 miles. </div></div>
That would have been my vote from the very beginning.

...and for what it's worth, if anyone is grumpy that $$ is being spent on something other than what YOU want or what YOU feel we need (weather it private or federally funded), then get your own loan and start designing it yourself. THAT'S HOW AMERICANS PROGRESS. </div></div>
Also if this rifle has recoil compared to a 50 cal then the sn9 will be more than capable to handle it.

I say trudge on with the rifle and post some darn pics
smile.gif
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen, let's get this thread back on track. I have enjoyed reading the constructive criticism and compliments alike. Sandwarrior, we have been designing some other cartridges that might be right up your alley! I can appreciate the need for what your talking about. We have some pretty neat stuff that we will announce later. We just thought we would start with the biggest first
smile.gif
Personally, I have learned a ton from this project just by getting it to where it is now. I think more amazingly, we have companies like GS Customs that keep pushing the limits of projectile design every chance they get. I never realized HOW much goes into bullet design until I started this venture. Continue on... </div></div>

saojao,

That's what I'm looking for. I will be looking forward to what you guys can put forth.
I did look into buying some GS Custom bullets at one time but it didn't seem to work out with shipping. It will take an American importer to get them in bulk. FWIW, that's how Prvi established their bullets here. Not saying they are the best, but that's how they got established.

There is some published information on jbm using GS customs bullets. Good luck with this, then. Sorry for the rant. I do understand we need to look over the horizon at times to see some serious progress. Even though there is/will always be the issues needing solving right before us. Looking over the horizon if you will, can sometimes make hard or tedious tasks non-existant.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Good call in the sn9... I have talked to USO about it, and as soon as we get down to serious testing I will order one up!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good call in the sn9... I have talked to USO about it, and as soon as we get down to serious testing I will order one up! </div></div>

if it doesn't work, send it to me
grin.gif
I will put it on my new SuperExtremeLongRange 10/22 with the UltraSuperMatchCarbonMolySniperBarrel.

It's called the SELR USMCMSB 10000/22
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good call in the sn9... I have talked to USO about it, and as soon as we get down to serious testing I will order one up! </div></div>

if it doesn't work, send it to me
grin.gif
I will put it on my new SuperExtremeLongRange 10/22 with the UltraSuperMatchCarbonMolySniperBarrel.

It's called the SELR USMCMSB 10000/22 </div></div>

Stop stealing my research!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Man some of the replies in this thread are just outright funny lol. 

First let's review practicality... There once was just a whisper and that whisper was very seldom spoke of here due to getting bashed worse than this thread lol, anyone care to guess what that whisper was???ummm short barreled rifles!!! Now if you look and read here you would think nobody here has ever had a rifle with barrel any longer than 20" haha. 

Now onto it not needed due to this or that is better... You guys are aware there are more countries than just ours right??? And that companies are allowed to sell defense articles to approved countries? I can list you 5 countries that are on ITAR approval list that are actively searching for a 2000+ meter system right now, which is kinda ironic due to we view them as third world countries and we are arrogant and think they cannot shoot that far on consistent basis. So why do they??? Ummm maybe cause they don't have consistent access to everything listed in this thread as better? I don't know, may be!! But I do know that those seeking that type of system and the other countries that already have them take pride in being able to utilize them at those distances and outgun lots of others in regards to sniper on sniper.

Is the 14.5 OPS a sniper rifle?? Not in it's directed role but you cannot argue that it will allow the shooter alot of "errors" due to its ballistics yet still remain on target even at distances of only say 2000m. Is it an AMR that has boatloads of potential? Absolutely yes. For those that don't realize what other AMRs are out there and what type of use they get and by what countries, you should research before you comment in this thread. I am in the middle of writing a book for some frog friends of mine that lays out what countries have sniper rifles that are ballistically dominating to ours and what type of training those countries have on uses those dominating systems. It is scary to say the least.

Anyways, keep up the work John and Anthony and the behind the scenes crew. My trigger finger and partial brain are waiting and ready to do the official demos for the AMR types lolol
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cybnew</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This was directed at sandyvagina..
</div></div>
You're lack of proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, not to mention your juvenile renaming of sandwarrior's name makes me believe that you are in fact unqualified to interject anything of quality to this discussion. If you are going to chime in, at least have something beneficial to say other than "Laffin" (It's spelled "laughing") or "Lol again"

At least Sandwarrior has taken the time to type out reasonable posts (whether you agree with them or not) which puts him far ahead of you. </div></div>

This Bloke "sniper2ndrep" caught my eye because he is claiming to be a sniper of the unit of 2e Régiment étranger de parachutistes. If you read any of his posts, they are all trash, not useful what so ever. I highly doubt this person was ever in the military of any nation, for his disrespectful and vulgar use of language in his comments. I must admit this is my first time on this website but posers who try to say that they are part of the French Foreign Legion and also a "sniper know it all" just pisses me off!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tannhauser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cybnew</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This was directed at sandyvagina..
</div></div>
You're lack of proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, not to mention your juvenile renaming of sandwarrior's name makes me believe that you are in fact unqualified to interject anything of quality to this discussion. If you are going to chime in, at least have something beneficial to say other than "Laffin" (It's spelled "laughing") or "Lol again"

At least Sandwarrior has taken the time to type out reasonable posts (whether you agree with them or not) which puts him far ahead of you. </div></div>

This Bloke "sniper2ndrep" caught my eye because he is claiming to be a sniper of the unit of 2e Régiment étranger de parachutistes. If you read any of his posts, they are all trash, not useful what so ever. I highly doubt this person was ever in the military of any nation, for his disrespectful and vulgar use of language in his comments. I must admit this is my first time on this website but posers who try to say that they are part of the French Foreign Legion and also a "sniper know it all" just pisses me off!</div></div>

That's why I thought I better tone down my rhetoric. Needless to say I got sucked into his little verbal sparring match. Using the language I did with him certainly wasn't within my "better judgement evelope". My bad for even addressing him.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Let's see. If your glass is perfect, your ammo is perfect, the shooter is perfect, wind is zero or doesn't exist - then this rifle would hit within 44cm circle at 3000m and within 73cm circle (that's roughly 2.5 ft) at 5000m. Anything goes wrong even a little bit - and this circle increases by how much? And what energy & ability to penetrate would this bullet have at 3000m? At 5000m?

And it's going to weight 50-60 lb.

What targets in your opinion would be suitable for such a rifle/round with such an accuracy? What is it that's larger than a 50cm cirle and would succumb to an anti-tank bullet at 3000m? Larger than 80cm at 5000m?

Do you really think it is fun to play with such a rifle? I don't.

P.S. Later mentioned that such a rifle could be beneficial/useful at closer distances (say around 2000m) because it would "forgive" shooter's errors. I don't know, and most AMRs advertised by other countries state effective range below 2000m and maximum range around 2000m). This one seems too cumbersome to deal with in practice, short of mounting it on a turret (in which case I'd prefer M1A2
smile.gif
)... And for destroying lightly-armored vehicles, radars and such at say 1500m - what's wrong with 12.7mm (.50BMG)?
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Again 45-50lbs less if I can get some things to work...total weight is with optic...It's has 40,000 or around there of energy at the muzzle...BC of bullet is 2.1... Simple math to figure out energy at 3000m...I forgot to add.. MV is 3,350 fps..,,
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

about 13,500 ftlbs @ 3000yds...

youve already told us the bullet mass is 1600grns or so, this means your velocity must be about 3300fps to achieve ~39,000ftlbs at the muzzle. A BC of 2.1 is nothing impressive from a projectile this size, in fact id call it very ordinary considering the technology available to us now. We should talk sao... PM inbound...

 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

saojao,

You have a very interesting concept and now that I've reread this thread a few times, I *think* I understand what you're trying to do in proper context. Perhaps the difficulty for most, like me, is that this was posted on a Sniper forum in a thread on 1000 yd + shooting where OUR paradigm is a standard shoulder fired weapon for engaging live (or steel or paper in my case)targets at reasonable (that's relative) distances.

Your concept is very intriguing, but I have no frame of reference by which to judge it, so I keep coming back to what I know, which isn't fair to you.

Keep us appraised though. Very interesting... and as the context continues to unfold, perhaps myself and others will appreciate your contribution more fully.

John
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 13,500 ftlbs @ 3000yds... </div></div>

THAT... has the potential to leave a mark.

John
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Groper, not sure if it really matters, but the bullet weighs 1,690 grains...not 1600
smile.gif
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I'm still not sure how this system is going to be employed? Would this take the place of the Barrett? Is this a crew served weapon?

What would the complete system include? What type of optic?

I'm still really skeptical about weight as well. I'm curious how much each round weighs in at. I can't imagine a full combat load weighing less than 60-70 pounds. So you are looking at a minimum 60 pounds and this isn't including plates, carrier, kevlar, primary weapon plus ammunition. I guess it will be SL3 complete with a mule to help carry it up the mountain.

I'm coming off as being really negative about this concept...I'm really not. I think it is an interesting idea, I guess I'm just confused what niche this is going to fill.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

The AMR "rifle" is virtually obsolete.

Tanks used to shoot at other amour using rifled guns. Now they have all moved to smoothbore guns using APFSDS ammunition due to the much greater ballistic performance and AP ability which translates into much better effectiveness. A dart travelling at 5000fps muzzle velocity has an EXTREMELY flat trajectory and MUCH shorter time of flight and much longer range. It is FAR superior in terms of a long range "gun".

The future of AMR guns lies within the smoothbore concept such as the 39lb Steyr IWS 2000 using plastic cased ammo, and APFSDS projectiles. This is only until they become obsolete entirely - by guided weapon systems. Which is pretty much already the case anyway...
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Bro, reason I called crew served weapon is total weight of system
Is weight with Huge Rifle Scope on top?
Bipod?
How much does loaded ammo weigh?
What do you consider load out of whole system ready for war to be?

Yes M107 is 35lbs for system minus ammo in full size form but many lightened ones are being fielded because it kicks rump to carry that system, plus normal combat stuff.

I dont see this system being light enough for any one man to carry in field when has to hump everything else and terrain is considered.

Lets see Afghanistan beats you because its Billy Goat Country and Iraq is oven with guys with slung M4s passing out. Now throw on the additional weight of this system.

I see this as stand off weapon, fairly stationary or moved by vehicles/Helicopter. I just dont see your average guy with full load, this and an M4 doing anything but crumping in place. Put one of these at ever corner of a COB and engage things with direct fire past what a M2 can. That is a place this has geat potential. Report is engaged with rifle fire may raise less eyes than we launched a TOW etc at them. Unfortunately we are having harder and harder time getting air or artty strikes approved but heck this would just be a rifle.


 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

see above,...near enuf 5,000fps and astonishing BC

Also abandoned as totally pointless.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Nope, the tungsten projectile weighs about 310grains... the rest is the discarding sabot. A main focus in all modern smoothbore development, aims to reduce the sabot weight as much as possible so that less energy is wasted. This means higher velocities for the actual projectile, and higher energy downrange.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: saojao</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Where is the astonishing BC? It says effective range 1,000 meters max effective range 2,500 meters....Also the projectile weighs only 550 grains! </div></div>

Not trying to rain on your parade, but have a look at the trajectory... its arc is 800mm over 1000m, this a fancy way of saying it drops 1600mm over 1000m.

They do not list a BC for the fin stabilized projectile, but assuming you had the same velocity with the GSC BC=2.1 @ 4800fps, yours would still drop more @ 1900mm. So clearly the BC of the fin stabilized projectile is much higher than 2.1.

Now let look at your actual figures assuming BC=2.1 @ 3300fps from this cannon of yours... it will drop ~4010mm @ 1000m, thats about 2.5 times as much drop over the same distance and it will be exponentially worse as the distance increases because you have lower velocity AND lower BC.

Whats more important, rather than the drop, is the time of flight, and therefore its effectiveness of actually hitting a target beyond this distance...

Your rifle will have a time of flight of ~3.5sec @ 3000yds. The steyrs APFSDS is ~2.0secs.

Yours cannon will still carry more energy at this range, but who cares if you cant hit anything but a completely stationary target...?

Your using old technology to develop a new weapon, good luck with that...
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

well put,...Steyr put significant R&D money into their project.

The conclusion was it was a pointless excercise.

5,000yd shoulder fired "rifles" are going to remain the stuff of armchair warriors, there are simply far more practicle solutions that are vastly more effective.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Wow, some very impressive finds here... OK, sarcasm aside, the APFSDS vs this system is a moot point. Don't care how you slice it or throw numbers around, that APFSDS round is only good for 1000m effective and 2,500 Maximum (where it transitions to subsonic, so calculate the BC there). Our system doesn't go subsonic till past 5000m, so yes, it far outshoots the IWS 2000. Now I know hight velocity will provide a super flat short range trajectory, but this isn't a 1000m gun guys. And we are not punching a 1/4" hole in the target either! This is by far a longer range weapon.

Now let's think for a moment...wonder why not every ammunition company on this planet isn't now making an Uber range product with these APFSDSs? Don't we still use the basic steel penatrator for all our 50 needs? If these were so great, and since we've been using them in tanks since WW1, then they would be a whole lot more popular then they are. Fact is, they are inaccurate, and when they slow down, they fall out of the sky! Remember, they are like arrows, and they will steer themselves downwards at slower speeds. Not to mention the cross-wind effect on those fins at longer ranges. No where can you see a chart that shows a finned projectile possesing a higher B.C. then a bullet designed version. They did that to make it skinnier, so it will penetrate deeper, yes!...but longer range, no. It can be fired from a smooth bore, and that's got it's advantaged, but not much in small arms, where targets are not tank sized always, or when they are further away. Let's also note that it only weighs 308 grains! KE is important sometimes. I'm sure that little guy will out penetrate our 14.5mm 1690 under 1000m, but not at 3000, or 4K, or 5K! And let us remember one thing...our bullet isn't AP! Yes, it can be made so, and we can easily do a Sabot in the future with a Tungsten sub-caliber bullet, but this one is Civilian legal.

Oh, and let us not even mention cost. Just how much do you think that rifle costs? And how about those tungsten darts with sabot and all that rest of that case you see in the linked pictures? Willing to wager it's a lot more then $12-15 a round, and we haven't even gone into production. This is still all custom stuff, and the rifle was made for less then $5000.

OK, so here are some pics.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

FYI, it's over 42,000 lb/ft KE at the muzzle, and over 7,300 at 5000 meters.

And as to the availability of our bullets...as someone started to point at earlier...all you have to do is order them. Yes, 30-50 have showen up here and there when we sent them out to customers for testing in rifles we just happened not to have or custom orders, but they are available, whenever. Not like there is a mystery to getting them, or smoke and mirrors surrounding them. Might not be listed on the website yet, because we've been quite busy, but all you have to do is ask.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5851690SP011b.jpg


5851690SP011a.jpg
</div></div>

What a BEAST!!!

I like the idea
grin.gif


Please post some shooting videos of the rifle system and some 2500-5000Y hits ASAP!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Wow, i gave you credit and thought you knew more than that Anthony...

The reason it lists 2500m maximum range, has nothing to to do with it going subsonic. They quote this range because its an "anti material rifle" and its armour piercing ability has reduced to a point where they deemed it no longer effective at killing armored targets.

The outright supersonic range of that steyr would far exceed your rifle, but they realize that its use would be limited beyond 2500m. If they scaled up that rifle and its ammo as big as yours, increased the entire system weight to the point of impracticality like yours, and then compared the 2 systems... yours would be a ballistic dog in comparison.

It also has nothing to with accuracy either. In fact, the accuracy of APFSDS ammo is superior to a rifled gun... which would help exlpain why all modern tank guns are now smoothbore instead of the old rifled guns.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5851690SP011b.jpg


5851690SP011a.jpg
</div></div>

for anyone who came in late to the thread...
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

This thread makes me feel dumb
frown.gif



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Okay Mark Walhberg...

</div></div>

That made me laugh though.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, it's over 42,000 lb/ft KE at the muzzle, and over 7,300 at 5000 meters.

And as to the availability of our bullets...as someone started to point at earlier...all you have to do is order them. Yes, 30-50 have showen up here and there when we sent them out to customers for testing in rifles we just happened not to have or custom orders, but they are available, whenever. Not like there is a mystery to getting them, or smoke and mirrors surrounding them. Might not be listed on the website yet, because we've been quite busy, but all you have to do is ask.</div></div>

Sorry, Anthony, That was me and I was going to order them, but it was a couple years ago. Very interesting concept with the SP bullets. How close are the numbers that JBM worked up for them if I may ask?
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Shooting videos and hits are up to saojao, and that might take a little while since we are now waiting on a custom stock and suppressor system.

groper, why are you so insulting? Do you really think I didn't know what I was talking about before I spoke? The range is limited by it's penetration ability, and it is specific in this, that 1000m is it's limit for effective range...and it goes subsonic at 2500m, of this I am sure. I checked it out, and it complies with military standards for rated listings, in that max effective is it's effective range for intended use, and Max range is it's transonic point. Please review the data, and not just the published adverts by said company. Also of note is that tanks are not all smoothbore, like you stated. They still use rifled barrels and carry numerous conventionally stabilized projectiles with payloads. And if you are regarding accuracy, it is because the tank possesses it's own computer aiming system. It calculates everything for the shot, so it is accurate, and very expensive, and too large to attach to a small arm. And, of importance, is that all tanks also use the APFSDS rounds for short to medium ranges, and the explosive conventional rounds for longer ranges. What also needs to be understood is how a finned projectile flies, like an arrow. They do fly flat for a while, with very little drop because of speed and small profile area and the fins, but they drop radically after a while. The requirement for 40mm of steel penetration is lost after 1000m, of which we can keep up with no problem. Now I say again, if we have been using these systems for some 40 years, why has it not been found in our extremely large inventory of smaller calibers, like the 20mm, or 30mm anti-tank gun of the A-10, or the 50 M107? Because it is of little to no advantage there. If it was so great, why isn't everyone doing it? Not to mention, they would actually have to scale down, since they are 15.2mm, and only 5 pounds stands between us...so maybe we can make ours 5 pounds lighter and we'll be good then.

Tactical, Not sure on weight. saojao can tell you, or I can if he gives me a case weight. As to other rounds, we already have some planned and programmed, but are not making AP yet, as there is no need. We also have the 1015 grain high velocity bullet, but a load has not been worked up yet. Also, other standard 14.5mm projectiles can be used here, and work fine. Who knows, depends on what is needed.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

sandwarrior...wrote you a note and just changed it; got your answer. Since we list the B.C. at 3 different speeds, it is extremely accurate. Most ballistic programs offer a calibration step to guide in the degradation of B.C. where as the graphing of 3 or more points on trajectory is the most accurate method. Not to mention it shows how GS Custom Bullets retain their B.C. much better; so it's not just the initial stated high velocity B.C. that is commonly used.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Why not a miniaturized version of the GPS guidance package available for 120mm mortars on a RAP version of a 60mm mortar bomb? Overall package weight and range would be comparable, and it would have better terminal lethality in both anti-personnel and anti-material, not to mention a dual role capability and greater first round pk in variable environmental conditions--throw in an EXACTO-type laser capability for movers in line of sight and done...

That being said, I want to see pics/video none the less
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
groper, why are you so insulting? Do you really think I didn't know what I was talking about before I spoke? The range is limited by it's penetration ability, and it is specific in this, that 1000m is it's limit for effective range...and it goes subsonic at 2500m, of this I am sure....</div></div>

Ok, so you honestly believe that a projectile launched at ~4800fps, with a sectional density at least 4x greater than a conventional projectile (5.56mm with mass = 310grains) goes subsonic at 2500m huh? im not even going to entertain educating this much ignorance... instead ima sit back and wait for the others to call you out so as to avoid 'insulting' you...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I say again, if we have been using these systems for some 40 years, why has it not been found in our extremely large inventory of smaller calibers, like the 20mm, or 30mm anti-tank gun of the A-10, or the 50 M107? Because it is of little to no advantage there. If it was so great, why isn't everyone doing it?... </div></div>

First, APFSDS called the M919 is currently in service from the 25mm M242 cannon on the bradleys and a whole bunch of other gear in service... its also been done in nearly every caliber from 15-120mm, its here its now. i thought you thought before you spoke?

http://www.atk.com/ammo_pdfs/mediumcaliber.pdf

Second, look at the dispersion data for all the APFSDS rounds compared to the conventional projectile of the same cartridge... has nothing to do with guidance, just raw gun dispersion. Most hold around 1MOA or .3-.4 milrad dispersion out to 3000m or more.

And by your own reasoning,if your cannon is so great, why hasnt anyone done it yet?
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

I like the idea! In fact, we have thought about it a bit, and our shooter has looked into it. If this happens to go Military, then they already have systems in place, so it would be a fit-up post adoption. And honestly, who knows what they will want when we demo the rifle. They might say they like it, they might not. And they might have a whole list of stuff for us to do once they get a good look at it.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

You are certainly impressive groper... Note that the caliber listed in there with a discarding sabot tungsten dart is not fin stabalized, and that 25mm is not on my list above. The 30mm Mk44 weapon and round I have not seen before, but the dispersion is only slightly better then the other rounds listed (.4 vs .44-.5 of other rounds listed) and that is simply because it's being shot faster. Take note of the non-finned APDS...it's faster and has a farther range. No where in any manual have I ever seen a APFSDS round that will out-range other styles, and I've seen a lot of manuals. Fact, the listed maximum range of the 15.2mm round from the IWS2000 goes subsonic at apx 2,500m. I checked. I admit, I'm not a tank gunner, but I spent the last 3 years at Crane with most every small and large arm the Navy has, and only seen the 120's and 155's with APFSDS. What you need to do is stop assuming. We have a few APFSDS rounds, but we use very little of them, and the guns are all still rifled, and they are all still shooting conventionally shaped and stabalized rounds, most of the time in fact. The advantage of the APFSDS is it's ability to penetrate armor, but it's not all that and a bag of chips. All you have done so far is show me how I'm supposed to think the round works, rather then actually see the data, and I have a slightly better then average idea of what I'm talking about. What bothers me is how you have completely assumed so much that you have gone all the way down to the SD, disregarded aerodynamics and those darn fins that have vastly more surface area then the same diameter solid of proper configuration. Slow down with all the drama, please.

P.S This isn't a tank!

P.S.S. Ours is public OK, not AP.

P.S.S.S Then make one!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5851690SP011b.jpg


5851690SP011a.jpg
</div></div>

Sweet Jesus!!!!! Now thats a bullet!
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

OK then. All we need to do now is introduce the question of Coriolis Effect and Spin Drift and we *might* have the Epic Thread.

Back to the unfolding drama.

John
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Anthony,...maybe you should stick to reading manuals and leave those that actually work with and design APFSDS and other real world projectiles to advise you?

Sorry to say it but your really clutching at straws with what you are writing.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anthony,...maybe you should stick to reading manuals and leave those that actually work with and design APFSDS and other real world projectiles to advise you?

Sorry to say it but your really clutching at straws with what you are writing. </div></div>

Emouse maybe you should stick to the high st mushy peas and moaning and leave the boys that are actually doin it to advance their projects with out given them stick .
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

che,...theres nothing "advanced" or novel in what anthony is "attempting" to produce.

Re-inventing the wheel is not progress.
 
Re: 5000 meters+ Supersonic

Emouse, Anthony is not "attempting" to produce anything....the rifle is built and shooting...If you ever make it to Virginia your more than welcome to come out and shoot...Maybe Groper can bring some of his bullets by, and we can put metal to metal and see how they fly...I even told him I would chamber another barrel in 1:16 twist just for his bullets...I know the GS design works, period! Nick, if you have a better design send me some...I'll wait for my invoice
smile.gif