8.6 Blk reloading info

[45-90]

So I completed a test with 6.5 Twist and 350 Maker bullets.
They do indeed open up in the 6.5 twist. But it may be delayed a bit when compared to the 3 twist.
You can adjust the velocity up to 1600 fps to get some real power, with the muzzle device attached and good accurscy, in the 6.5 twist....not limited to 1050 fps as in the 3 twist.
Accuracy, the 3 twist is horrible...group sizes were 3 and 1/3 times larger with the 3 twist with the 350 gr Maker. Some even greater, like 6 and 1/2 times larger!
Reminded me why I gave up on the Faxon rough barreled 3 twist. It just as waste of ammo.
I enjoyed the AR platform, but will do no more shooting with this barrel.
The 6.5 twist and 350 gr Makerl...looking through the back, as the bullet expanded in this jug of water.
Exit wound in wet paper shows expanded bullet with petals still present.
These 350 Maker were not caught in full bloom. They open up and had a huge cavity in a burned log, then lose the petals and penetrate for ever,.. it seems. Stopped it with armor plate, glanced off the plate, and dug into the ground. Took a shovel to find it.
How fast they open is adjustabe by velocity to only 1050 fps with the 3 twist. But do not open at around 750 or maybe 800 fps depending on medium impacted. Steel would be different, gravel was different...so it depends...
I'm only testing these and do not plan to hunt with the 8.6 Blackout.
The performance varies, and is somewhat adjustable, but it's a close range bullet as the velocity changes the performance changes.
So if ya find a velocity and range it works good in, on the animal you hunt, keep your range limited.
Not that it won't kill if it doesn't expand, but works a lot better if it does.
I bought 5 boxes of these 350 Maker bullets and fired almost 2 boxes on testing. Is it a good hunting bullet? Who knows? I haven't killed anything with it.
But it will penetrate, after the petals break off...
And the accuracy of the Faxon 3 twist ...if ya aim at a hogs head and hit him in the lower jaw at 70 yds...that is about my accuracy with the Faxon 3 twist barrel, so expanding won't kill him....but the 6.5 twist will put the bullet very close to where you aim, 350 Maker, or almost any other, in subsonic mode, plus you have excellent supersonic capabilities with any lead bullet guaranteed to dump a hog, economically.
After today the Faxon 3 twist is definitely retired...I have better things to do, than waste ammo, with this horribly inaccurate barrel.
But if you love your 3 twist, keep on using it. Other brands might be a bit more accurate.

 

[wgranvilleb]

@45-90 : Thanks for the thorough testing and follow-up. All of your hard work is greatly appreciated.

 

[45-90]

Well the Faxon 3 twist barreled 8.6 AR, is no more...
Took the gun apart, saved the good stuff and discarded the barrel.
If I build another AR in 8.6 it will be a 6.5 twist barrel.

 

[@xedentlyprone]

I'm looking to get an AR load recommendation(s) for 16" faxon 1:3 twist using 270 eldx. Super and or sub.

 

[DRWilson]

I'm looking to get an AR load recommendation(s) for 16" faxon 1:3 twist using 270 eldx. Super and or sub.

If you can, run a 6.5 twist and you can get that bullet humming. Not sure the bullet can get going fast enough to expand with the speeds a 3 twist can generate. I’m not sure a 6.5 twist will be able to expand that bullet either. Someone probably has better knowledge on that.

 

[45-90]

The 3 twist is very limited, to hunt you need the specialty bullets from folks like Maker, for 1050 fps max velocity.
Or all copper bullets from people like Barnes for faster supersonic loads....but most won't go fast enough to open up if very heavy, and range is still short.

I ran the lead 285 gr ELDM in my 3 twist, it blew up around 30 yds, at just 1400 fps.
According to Hornady it needs 2400 to 3200 fps muzzle velocity in conventional rifling like 10 to 8 twist to perform, 0 to 400 yds in a hunting situation...but might deform a little down to 1600 fps. Giving it long range potential in a conventional rifle...not the 3 twist.
It can be shot in a 3 twist around 1200 fps, maybe...but might as well shoot it at 1050 fps, to be safe, in the 3 twist...all loads with lead and Maker should be in that range...max 1050 fps. It's basically a subsonic round.
I like the Barnes 160 gr for velocity but no copper bullets were accurate in my 3 twist, plus it slows down fast...making it a short range rifle.
Change to the 6.5 twist, long barrel, bolt gun and the 270 gr is good for 2000 fps...its good for hunting to 500 yds, on elk in the high desert 4200 ft elevation...according to Hornadys minimum 1600 fps and 1600 ft/ lbs on impact...but I wouldn't do that. But 300 yards would be easy...And why I personally quit using the 3 twist.

Your 3 twist 270 gr ELDX load would be 15.0 gr AA 1680, for function, 1050 to 1100 fps...maybe, it's a Faxon barrel my 3 twist was rough as hell, torn and galled rifling...that helps tear up bullet jackets causing failures...it wil be target shootable but not a hunting bullet, for the 3 twist ...it's too slow to perform, as its manufactured for the high velocity of the 338 magnums.

Chronograph it to be sure, and take off your muzzle device....or experience the bullet blow up in your muzzle device, destroying it, and your chronograph bayonet. I spent considerable time and money on the 3 twist...it's very specialized, with expensive special bullets for hunting subsonic, at close range...it's main goal...IMO.

 

[wgranvilleb]

I'm looking to get an AR load recommendation(s) for 16" faxon 1:3 twist using 270 eldx. Super and or sub.

Fully agree with @45-90 post in #906. He has considerable reloading experience in general, and especially in this area (and unfortunately bad luck with Faxon barrels).

Q LLC, who developed this round, recommends only using solid copper or bonded projectiles for the 1:3" twist. Just assume most anything else will spin apart as soon as it exits the barrel.

Two functional areas to consider:
- rifle: cycling in an AR platform (non-issue in a bolt gun)
- projectile: minimum velocity for proper function (expansion)

If you haven't already, I suggest you refer to an earlier post in this thread #893 for a starting point for loading data. Additionally, in order to load for this round, a chronograph is nearly indispensable.

I agree with @45-90 in that the eldx projectile is not suitable for the 1:3" twist and requires velocity for function which is beyond scope of the 8.6 BO. Furthermore, and to emphasize what @45-90 has previously stated, this projectile will likely be dangerous and self-destruct upon exit from the barrel. IMHO, the 275 gr weight is much too heavy for (practical) supersonic loading.

My opinion, FWIW, is to select projectiles that are more suitable for their anticipated roles for the 1:3" twist which is a highly specialized environment.
- Subsonic:
- the 300 gr SMK was used for primary load development and I did not experience any difficulties with projectile instability. As mentioned previously, Maker manufactures 300 gr and 350 gr solid copper projectiles which are specifically designed for 1:3" twist subsonic loads. (Note: the 350 gr projectile only loses ~100 fps at 300 yards).
- Supersonic:
- 160 gr Barnes TTSX was used during my load development as the lightest available projectile to determine a maximum velocity limit for projectile function and to guesstimate maximum useable range (ballpark 150 yd - 175 yd (max)).
- 220 gr Maker - designed for 1:3" to operate in the 1,500 fps - 1,900 fps velocity range and probably 125 yd - 150 yd range. IMHO, this is the heaviest projectile weight I would be comfortable using for (practical) supersonic applications.

In summary, the 1:3" twist is a challenging and specialized environment. An emphasis on safety is even more important than the usual levels when loading for more conventional twist rates. Proceed carefully . . .

 

[45-90]

I did extensive tests on the 3 twist....
Here is an example:
My 16" faxon 3 twist one of their recommended loads that to months to get removed from their site.
A lead supersonic 225 gr bullet out of a 3 twist...will not kill a rabbit at 10 yards!
Notice the muzzle has no muzzle device, (I learned the hard way) and it's fired 2 feet from the opening of a large box.
The bullet comes completely apart as soon as it leaves the confines of the barrel.
Bullet fragments covering the top bottom and sides of the big box.
Back up to 8 feet and the outside of the box is hit with bullet shrapnel, jacket and lead pieces.
The air is full of lead dust....difficult and dangerous to breathe.
I fired 5 or 6 in rapid sucession in the dirt at 10 feet, and the air was poisonous, had to back off.
The 3 twist can be very dangerous.
I did these experiments so you don't have to. Do not have anyone beside you if you decide to try this as some fragments exit at 90° and will injure a person next to you. If you leave a muzzle brake on, the bullet fragments and break fragments can come back at you.
I experience that on the first Faxon recommended lead load...I was lucky it only cased a few hundred dollars in damage, destroyed the break and magnetospeed bayonet.
Be safe get a chronograph, keep velocities in the 1050 fps range and test without a muzzle device...or have some stainless steel break pieces, and deflected bullet fragments, come back to your face and chest.
It will be a WTF moment...
If you like your 3 twist I'd strongly suggest you stay inside the speed limit of 1050 fps, and even 900 to 950 fps for suppressor.

Now take the same bullet but 200 gr instead of 225 gr put it in a bolt gun 6.5 twist with a long barrel...and ya have a dual purpose cartridge.
Cheap 200 gr Speer over 2500 fps... with accuracy.
Or a one hundred yard ladder test with 285 ELDM, And 300 gr match bullets one same target...you can see the bullets grouping together as the velocity increases.
Cause one can go heavy super loads with out fear of bullet blow up, huge gains in bullet energy are available 2850 ft/lbs with the 200 gr Speer on sale for 30 cents, or 2790 ft/lbs for the 160 Barnes, or 2590 ft/lbs for the 300 gr Berger, and 2200 ft/lbs for the 350 Maker...
Take the 300 Berger to 1000 yds 1244 fps remaining velocity with 1032 ft/bs. Drop 53.8 MOA wind 72 inches of drift in a 10 mph cross wind ...that's doable.
I only harp on this for safety for those who like their 3 twist...and there's another option to consider, a slower twist...with the 6.5 twist, giving the option of a real dual purpose cartridge. This is just my journey with the 8.6 Blackout, all it's problems and what I consider a solution to them.

 

[@xedentlyprone]

Great info! Gonna have to do more reading and thinking on this now.

Also I'm testing function in an st 8.6 and with fort scott subs tui im getting failure on to eject ...to me I think short stroke based on case particularly exiting and jamming since I had the gas all the way up and ran it down with dame issue. Also thought my jp buffer with law folding extension may be an issue with factory spring so was going to change up the buffer weights and or spring

 

[Dogtown]

This thread made me go with the 1:6.5…thanks

 

[45-90]

Great info! Gonna have to do more reading and thinking on this now.

Also I'm testing function in an st 8.6 and with fort scott subs tui im getting failure on to eject ...to me I think short stroke based on case particularly exiting and jamming since I had the gas all the way up and ran it down with dame issue. Also thought my jp buffer with law folding extension may be an issue with factory spring so was going to change up the buffer weights and or spring

If you're gonna shoot the 8.6 Blackout, you should be a reloader, with a chronograph.
The 16" Faxon has carbine gas, with a .106" dia gas port, works with AA1680 powder, even down to 800 fps. With standard carbine buffer and spring,..nothing special needed.
You can not depend on others to make ammo for this 8.6 especially 3 twist, and have it work for you, because of all the variations in barrel length, chambers, rough rifling, gas port size, gas lentths etc.
It's mostly disappointing in function and accuracy...from the reports I've seen.
Even if a factory ammo works for a few boxes a slight reduction change in powder charge could mean a malfunction. They have to keep ammo on the low side so the bullets don't blow up on most and subs...except Barnes, and Hornady solid copper types for high velocity.

 

[DRWilson]

I am SOLD on my 6.5 twist 8" Mostek Barrel for my AR platform setup. It's more accurate for me. I zeroed and shot it for the first time today and I immediately noticed the difference in accuracy. I was finally stacking bullets and that was lacking in my 3 twist barrel. I hope to shoot my 12" bolt 6.5 twist Mostek barrel tomorrow and that will be my first time shooting that one. My previous barrel was a Faxon and my grouping didn't exit. I had a 20 moa groups at 100 yds .It was nuts. So far the AR will be subs only and my bolt will be supers.

 

[DRWilson]

Okay. I took the bolt gun to the range and zeroed my 6.5 twist barrel. Geez! I must have had a bad Faxon because this is now a sub MOA round with supers. I am shooting Barnes 225gr ttsx and the bullet gets full expansion at 1800fps and 1.7x expansion at 1600fps. I will be working up my own loads to maximize my expansion distance. For factor loads, I am at 1992fps. I am hoping for more with my Alpha Brass running a slightly higher pressure. Wish me luck!

 

[GregP42]

I am SOLD on my 6.5 twist 8" Mostek Barrel for my AR platform setup. It's more accurate for me. I zeroed and shot it for the first time today and I immediately noticed the difference in accuracy. I was finally stacking bullets and that was lacking in my 3 twist barrel. I hope to shoot my 12" bolt 6.5 twist Mostek barrel tomorrow and that will be my first time shooting that one. My previous barrel was a Faxon and my grouping didn't exit. I had a 20 moa groups at 100 yds .It was nuts. So far the AR will be subs only and my bolt will be supers.

I went to Mos-Tek's website, they show a 1-3 or a 1-5 for the bolt action barrels, do you have to call them to get the 1-6.5?

Greg

 

[wgranvilleb]

I went to Mos-Tek's website, they show a 1-3 or a 1-5 for the bolt action barrels, do you have to call them to get the 1-6.5?

Greg

Greg,
You can order it online. There is a build page with a list of options on their website.
(Barrel length, twist rate, muzzle finish (shoulder and thread pitch), chamber collar, cryo treatment, coating, etc.)

The 1:6.5" is if you are oriented more towards supersonic applications, the 1:3" for subsonic applications, and Mos-Tec claims they have found a sweet spot between the two with the 1:5" twist for a balance between the two extremes.

You will need to decide how you plan to use it and choose accordingly.
Be aware, there is a 25 week lead time.

 

[DRWilson]

I went to Mos-Tek's website, they show a 1-3 or a 1-5 for the bolt action barrels, do you have to call them to get the 1-6.5?

Greg

It was on their site when I ordered. I’d call them or email. They usually get back in a day or two from my experience. But they still make the 6.5 twist… that I know. I have really appreciated working with them.

 

[MSBRPT]

Received a 6.5 twist barrel from Mos-Tek for the Fix. Quality looked better than the Q 1:3 barrel when I scoped it. Shot it for the first time today with random hand loads and Gorilla subsonics. Muzzle velocities seemed a lot more consistent than the 1:3.

I couldn’t get groups on paper. Went from a dirty zero on a 66% IPSC at 185 yards to paper before I got a squib before grouping. I was able to knock it out. The load was a SRP using BR4s. None of the powder burned, which got me thinking if SRPs aren’t suitable for subsonics where case fill is pretty low. From what I understand LRPs have a lower rate of failing to ignite. Some background, just swapped the barrel from 6.5 CM and shot hundreds of hand loads using SRPs without this issue. Could’ve just been a bad primer, not sure. Looking for insight before I get another squib I can’t knock out on my own.

 

[45-90]

Received a 6.5 twist barrel from Mos-Tek for the Fix. Quality looked better than the Q 1:3 barrel when I scoped it. Shot it for the first time today with random hand loads and Gorilla subsonics. Muzzle velocities seemed a lot more consistent than the 1:3.

I couldn’t get groups on paper. Went from a dirty zero on a 66% IPSC at 185 yards to paper before I got a squib before grouping. I was able to knock it out. The load was a SRP using BR4s. None of the powder burned, which got me thinking if SRPs aren’t suitable for subsonics where case fill is pretty low. From what I understand LRPs have a lower rate of failing to ignite. Some background, just swapped the barrel from 6.5 CM and shot hundreds of hand loads using SRPs without this issue. Could’ve just been a bad primer, not sure. Looking for insight before I get another squib I can’t knock out on my own.

I don't use SRP in 8.6 loads....but have used them in 308, & 450 Bushmaster...where fairly large powder charges are used.
Did a small test one time with both SRP and LRP in the 308 with heavy 230 gr bullets in a 9 twist 22" bolt gun. The LRP were more consistent in velocity, had better accuracy, and about 40 fps faster with the same weight powder charge. So these days I tend to use LRP...although I still have several boxes of Lapua SRP in 308 and 6.5 CM. I will not purchase any more, so that's where I stand on SRP in larger cases.

But I did have a very similar problem where no powder ignition happened. It was not the primer...It was small bullet diameter.
It takes a lot of resistance to build pressure.....pressure resistance causes the powder to burn. And why high pressure rounds burn cleaner.
if all the bullets are correct caliber for the barrel, like .338" and not a .333" thrown in then its likely one bad primer, rare but it does happen.
To get better ignition a smaller neck diameter die can help...along with a Lee factory crimp die...

 

[wgranvilleb]

Received a 6.5 twist barrel from Mos-Tek for the Fix. Quality looked better than the Q 1:3 barrel when I scoped it. Shot it for the first time today with random hand loads and Gorilla subsonics. Muzzle velocities seemed a lot more consistent than the 1:3.

I couldn’t get groups on paper. Went from a dirty zero on a 66% IPSC at 185 yards to paper before I got a squib before grouping. I was able to knock it out. The load was a SRP using BR4s. None of the powder burned, which got me thinking if SRPs aren’t suitable for subsonics where case fill is pretty low. From what I understand LRPs have a lower rate of failing to ignite. Some background, just swapped the barrel from 6.5 CM and shot hundreds of hand loads using SRPs without this issue. Could’ve just been a bad primer, not sure. Looking for insight before I get another squib I can’t knock out on my own.

Thanks for your initial feedback with the new barrel. Additional follow-up as you gain experience will be appreciated.

Regarding the primers, I have only used LRPs and have had no issues.

Regarding the zero and grouping . . . when starting out in a new environment such as new barrel, projectile, charges, scope, etc., I eventually acquiesced to the more classical approach of large paper at short distances (~50 yds) to verify I'm in the ballpark before pushing out to distance. IMHO, the few initial shots up close save time later.

Please keep us apprised as you progress.

 

[MSBRPT]

Thanks for your initial feedback with the new barrel. Additional follow-up as you gain experience will be appreciated.

Regarding the primers, I have only used LRPs and have had no issues.

Regarding the zero and grouping . . . when starting out in a new environment such as new barrel, projectile, charges, scope, etc., I eventually acquiesced to the more classical approach of large paper at short distances (~50 yds) to verify I'm in the ballpark before pushing out to distance. IMHO, the few initial shots up close save time later.

Please keep us apprised as you progress.

Couldn’t group yesterday because the second round on paper squibed. Went back today and shot a 6 round group. First three rounds stacked pretty close together. The following 3 opened up slightly with the 6th being a possible flyer, ckye pod feet slipped on concrete bench top. With the flyer the group is just under 1.5 MOA. Without it, it’s .8 MOA. I was able to pick up 10 shots (yesterday’s shots and todays) from the load which was 11 grains of Lil Gun, BR4s, converted alpha 6 GT brass and 250 grain lapua scenars seated at 2.7” COAL. Average MV was 979 fps with a SD of 11.9. I feel a lot more confident in this barrel as far as accuracy and consistency goes than the 1:3 so far. Being able to break subsonic without damaging equipment or worse is nice too.

As for the squibs, I had a few more today. When chambering the cartridge I felt some resistance. Fired and nothing happened. Same thing I experienced yesterday with none of the powder being burnt. Popped out the round which is getting lodged where the lands start. The following squib, once I felt more resistance than normal I pulled the bolt back before even trying to lock the bolt down. The round still got lodged. After cleaning Lil Gun out of the chamber and barrel for the second time I called it. All sized brass, neck wall thicknesses and loaded cartridges get checked with a gauge and are within spec. This happened only with the scenars and not with 350 grain makers. Neck tension is set to .002” under for all cartridges. I haven’t measured distance to the lands in the 6.5 barrel. Once I figure out the cause I’ll give an update.
Update:
I measured distance to the lands and CBTO on the handloads. I got a difference of .017”. It seems the lands are closer in the 6.5 twist barrel than pre-fits from Q. I believe seating the bullet deeper will remedy the stuck bullets. CBTO on hand loads with 350 grain makers are under the measurement to the lands.

 

[MSBRPT]

I sat the scenars to 1.99” CBTO and this fixed my squib issue. The lands were pulling the bullets when locking the bolt. No pressure and no ignition. The Mos-Tek barrel has a shorter distance to the lands. I’m very happy with the barrel. Group is under 1” and MV is really consistent. Distance was 100m.

 

[45-90]

I sat the scenars to 1.99” CBTO and this fixed my squib issue. The lands were pulling the bullets when locking the bolt. No pressure and no ignition. The Mos-Tek barrel has a shorter distance to the lands. I’m very happy with the barrel. Group is under 1” and MV is really consistent. Distance was 100m.

Also make sure you're not oversizing the brass with the new barrel. If the COAL is different on this chamber. The headspace may be different also, allowing excess headspace..check your fired cases (preferably a full power load) against your FL sized cases.
Pushing the case too far into the chamber with headspace inconsistencies will cause a few miss fires as described, or "click" when the trigger is pulled, with the bullet jammed into the rifling the bullet and powder are left in the barrel.
One can hard jam cases in fireforming wildcats to fill out 40° shoulders, but the case closes on the bolt with resistance in rough forming....or closes on resistance with the false shoulder method.
The primer always goes off, fire forming the case....is why I mentioned checking the fired case headspace against the FLsized case before continuing...with measuring tools. Then adjust the die to the chamber.

 

[Mike6158]

Ballistic High Speed just turned a video loose showing bullets exiting the muzzle for various handgun and rifle calibers. 8.6BLK made the cut, probably with a 3 twist. They compared exits at 200,000 frames per second to 600,000 frames per second. It was interesting to see the difference between suppressed and unsuppressed.