AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

[RyanScott]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The best part about an AI is that you don't have to wait ten months, source a scope and have a local guy install it, etc. etc. Make an eight minute phone call (I picked Tac-Pro but you have options) and a SWS shows up at your dealers office later that week. That simple. One rifle, one box, with a scope, magazines, sling... It's a system not a cobbled together stash or hunting rifle/tactical components.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

I also have a surgeon in 6.54 creed , a AIAW in 338 lap and 308 and simply liove these rifles. also have a PGW coyote that I have not shot due to the excellent performance of the AW and the Surgeons.
Remmy was not for me just an opinion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did some research on this topic and found that the biggest critics were the British snipers that used them (AIAW). "The bloody thing was too heavy"? This was a view from a 18 yr old that never shot a gun before the military. I have watched videos of the bolts binding up. After everything was researched I went out and bought a AIAW 308. I loved it in almost every way. The English have excellent machining and quality control. They have been building them for a long time. The bolt was designed by a one of the great marksman of our time (even if he was English). The bolt design was cutting edge and still is.

The Remington 700 action has been around longer and has had more history behind it. It is lighter and cheaper to build. I am not talking about high end Surgeon or Lawton variants.

I think this thread was more about AIAW vs Surgeon (bolt safety) action? That would be apples to apples comparison. The AW and Surgeon have similar cost and design. Both high end.

With comparing these two I think you will find very little fails under heavy use. When using the 308 cal I have never found any record of failures do to design or quality. There is a web page on the internet that is for this exact research. Both actions are high end machined works of art.

Both the AW and Surgeon will jam and fail if abused. If there is enough dirt or bad ammo, failure will occur. With this understood it comes down to which action has seen more warlike conditions? This category is dominated by the AW at this time. I feel the USMC will adopt the Surgeon action or some variant in the future.

I love and posses both actions. If I had to choose one it would be the Surgeon. I feel it is smoother, And it is made in the USA.

</div></div>

 

[desertHK]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best part about an AI is that you don't have to wait ten months, source a scope and have a local guy install it, etc. etc. Make an eight minute phone call (I picked Tac-Pro but you have options) and a SWS shows up at your dealers office later that week. That simple. One rifle, one box, with a scope, magazines, sling... It's a system not a cobbled together stash or hunting rifle/tactical components. </div></div>

Certainly, AI has stepped up their production a bit. When I first got my AIAW 308, there was about a 4-5 months wait. Then came the AIAWSM, it was about 6 months wait also. The AICS also had a long wait as well. It was definitely worth the wait. When I shoot my AIAWSM in 338 LM compared to my Remy 700 in AICS done my GAP, there is an appreciable difference between the two. First, let me say that, George and his crew at GAP did a wonderful job on my Remy 300 WM. From an accuracy standpoint, my Remy 300 WM has the edge, at least out to about 1500 yards. In terms of smoothness of the action, there is no question that the AIAWSM has the edge. Due to the tight chamber of my 300 WM, there has been a few instances where the bolt was difficult to operate be it closed or opened. However, this is more due to my extended use of the brass. Didn't have any problem with new brass. Both are just as heavy, but the AIAWSM is a bit heavier. My AIAWSM functioned flawlessly in extremely windy and sandy conditions here in the desert.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have a surgeon in 6.54 creed , a AIAW in 338 lap and 308 and simply liove these rifles. also have a PGW coyote that I have not shot due to the excellent performance of the AW and the Surgeons.
Remmy was not for me just an opinion.

</div></div>

One wonderful collection to say the least, but do you actually utilize these rifles in such a way that tests their reliability?

 

[Agent Law]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Might it just be an issue of how much a dealer has on hand, then?

 

[beenjammin]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

From my TRGs, the only complaints I had was I experienced the spent brass ordeal Frank was talking about with the surgeons. If I did not forcefully run the bolt, the case would simply fall on top of the next round to be loaded instead of ejected. Saw this on three of my TRGs over the years.

Also The TRG's stock color appears to be infact a coating and not injection molded throughout like the AW side panels. I have had a green TRG stock chip to reveal black material. I noticed this when removing tan krylon with acetone.

I like the trigger on the TRG a little more, but I just could never keep the TRG for long and always ended up with another AIAW. My biggest mistake was selling my old school 93 AWP. It was such a shooter. I still have my 5 shot groups from that rifle. My 2007 is just not the same as that older rifle. Its close, but not the same. Perhaps sentimental value plays a big role.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the reliability highlight reel
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

No bias there at all then Frank!

All the best,

Neil</div></div>

It is not my video, I was not present nor did I have anything to do with the competition... However the facts are the facts... there would have been no reel if these other rifles didn't screw up. </div></div>

I actually just got home from shooting with him (the shooter of the first Tubb in the video) and it makes me sad for him everytime I see it, but facts are facts and the T2K is gone from my "I need one of those someday" list, however and AI AW is still on it.
His T2K in 308 had a hiccup or two today.........


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......... a cobbled together stash or hunting rifle/tactical components. </div></div>
I'll still take a well built 700 platform any day of the week. If they are built right any dpwntime is very likely operator error.

I'd love to get my hands on an AW action and stock not bonded yet, then mill the stock down to a mini chassis, then put it in a stock that fits me better than the AI setup!

 

[desertHK]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

sobrbiker883, where did you guys shoot today? We need to get together for a little Long range shooting seesion.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I zeroed a new scope on my AI .338 after the 3Gun match today. I took 4 rounds to get dead on at 100. The next 3 rounds were shot 2 by me and 1 by a friend-- they comprised a group less than 0.2". I don't claim this is typical, but damn impressive nonetheless.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

zak have you rebarrled any of your AI's yet? if so did you buy another AI barrel or have a custom one done?

 

[Raabe]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I still want to setup a AW in 7mm Rem Mag like you have Zak, you still shooting that fairly regularly?

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

On the note of brass back into reciever.
I noticed on my stiller's 338lm it does throw the brass back in when you run the bolt fast and hard, ( but it is because the brass hits the bottom of my S&B windge knob..
Could this be the problem with the surgeons. I fixed the problem by going to higher rings....

 

[johndoe]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Sticky.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">zak have you rebarrled any of your AI's yet? if so did you buy another AI barrel or have a custom one done?</div></div>
Yes, but not because of wearing out the original AI barrels.

I bought a used AW in 2006 and immediately put a GAP .260 barrel (Rock Creek blank) on it. I used that rifle just a few months laster to win the 2006 Steel Safari.

Then in 2007 I tested a 6.5x47 Lapua barrel on my '05 AWP, for a year (Satern blank - GAP chambered). It is now back to the original 24" .308 barrel - and incidentally, it has over 6000 rounds through it and still shoots well under 0.5 MOA. (I sold the 6.5x47 barrel to another AI shooter since I had decided the 6.5mm I wanted to stick with was the .260)

In late 2008 I put a GAP 7mm RM barrel on my AWSM, converting it from .338LM. This involved getting the .300WM bolt body from AI (and using .300WM magazines). That barrel has been on that gun until last week, when I switched it back to .338 in order to demo .338 for someone.

I used the AI rifles with the two 6.5mm barrels to generate the data and experience I used in the series of 6.5mm cartridge articles in the 2006-2009 timeframe.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still want to setup a AW in 7mm Rem Mag like you have Zak, you still shooting that fairly regularly?</div></div>
Yes. A 7mm RM barrel on an AWM rifle is a laserbeam. It is a great setup.

VNgunfighter and I got a pair of 7mm RM barrels from GAP in 2008 for his AWM and my AWSM - only difference is I needed to buy the .300 bolt body and mags (while he had already procured the .338LM bolt body and mags to shoot .338 for a while). We were getting 2950 fps from the 180 gr Bergers, but had a weird consistency issue. However, we knew both guns and scopes were solid due to how they had shot with the .300 and .338 barrels.

We never did figure out what caused it exactly, because we both switched to the 162gr AMAX or the 168gr Berger, both which shoot with excellent accuracy and consistency. My current load is a 162gr AMAX at 3075 fps. Using a .30 caliber suppressor (the 30P-1 in my case), the 7mm RM has pretty minimal recoil but really awesome ballistics that only lag .338LM by a tiny bit.

Lately, I have been shooting more .260 than 7mm RM simply because I have quite a supply of 139gr Scenars laid in -- but I need to order more 7mm bullets.

Here's my AWSM with a heavy Palma 7mm RM barrel on it


When Shane's rifle had a last minute problem at the last Sporting Rifle Match of 2009, he shot my 7mm with only like 5 rounds to practice that morning, and managed to place 4th. Not bad for an unfamiliar rifle.

 

[19818119]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Hey Zak,

Any reason why you chose to stick with the 260 over the x47?

Thanks,
Rath

 

[Baldmonk01]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Zak,

Any reason why you chose to stick with the 260 over the x47?

Thanks,
Rath </div></div>

Small Primer cratering and piercing with AI bolt and the 260 could do everything the 6.5x47 could do a little better according to his article.

I have been trying to find someone to Bushing my firing pin for my AW, No one seems to want to do it because the AI bolt are so much harder than other bolts. GreTran says it breaks his tooling they are so hard.

 

[19818119]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Baldmonk01, thanks for the info. I read Zak's 6.5 article and found the info.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

zak any opinion on the FN spr actions etc from reliablity stand point?

 

[Lburt]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have an empty piece of brass in the action, how do you run the bolt ?
What happens is, it pulls the spent casing out, spins it around and deposits it back into the action. </div></div>Yup. Makes your Surgeon a single shot.

Moon has a fix, though: extend the ejection port.

The problem appears to be that when you run the bolt hard the empty brass remains engaged by the extractor until the body of the case is behind the opening of the port. When the extractor cuts the case loose the bottom third of the case hits the side of the port opening, spins the case 180 degrees, and deposits the empty case in the action backwards.

I sent Preston what I thought was a polite PM explaining the problem. He read it and deleted it. I never received an answer.</div></div> My rifle smith ran into a problem of the ejected cases coming out so hard that the case mouth was sometimes dented and the cases were all over the place. He did not run into the problem of the case spinning and staying in the loading port, although I have seen that happen. Gary cut a couple of coils from the ejector spring and now my cases don't bang the lip of the loading port and they fall into a neat little pile about 18" away like the cases from my 1911's. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone run their actions harder than benchrest shooters that find a condition they like and ram 5 shots down range super quick. Some of their guns don't have extractors but those that do have extractors have them set so that they their cases drop into a neat little pile. I don't know if reducing the strength of the ejector spring would have helped the case spinning and staying in, but it can't hurt.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

.260 has more case capacity than the x47 so it has more performance potential, period. But, yeah, I write shit up in articles so I don't have to retype it in every thread where it comes up.

There is another thread where I speculate about the pressure limiters I found in the 6.5mm cartridges in the AI.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

where is that article on preasure limiters

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

This is the thread in which I speculated about the mechanics of the problem
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1630204
Note that I am not generalizing this problem, just noting that it happened to both my .260 and my 6.5x47 barrels.

It is also not meant to be a discussion of reloading practices in general-- it is just a discussion of a very specific type of pressure issue.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In my guns, shooting .260 since 2006 and 6.5x47 since 2007, primer piercing would occur during load progression after significant primer cupping, to the "volcano" level. Thus my hypothesis is that eventually the primer cup material cannot be stretched anymore and the volcano "plug" simply breaks off (and is left loose in the bolt head).

I speculate this happens due to firing pin retraction fast enough during firing to allow the primer material to move. However, this is just a guess with no direct observation, measurement, or instrumentation.

One could always blame this on pressure, but that's kind of a cop out because:

(1) it is caused by pressure and if you reduce pressure it goes away - the same can be said for any pressure symptom, and

(2) we are running high performance loads in high performance guns, and other rifles (with different bolt assembly designs) do not have the piercing issue.

But the point is that the AW exhibits this problem before other rifles do, and this limits the performance I can wring from the AW.

I know for a fact that some of my fellow competitors are shooting .260 and 6.5x47 loads in other rifles that caused extreme primer cupping or piercing in my AWs, and I can't match their velocities using the same recipes without those issues.

The first 6.5x47/AI-AW article was published by me in 2007 and I detailed the limitations I found with this combination with regard to primer piercing. This happens to be the same limiter I had with the .260, although I didn't mention that in an article until the 6.5mm Shootout, late 2007.

I realize this is off topic for this sub-forum, and I don't mean to divert an industry for-sale post; however, some things I said were quoted and I wanted to make it totally clear what my experience was with regard to the issue.

FWIW, I still stand by my statement that this is not a big handicap, just an annoyance, and that any practical field match can be won with a 139gr Scenar at 2900 fps. I shot 1st and 2nd place at the last two Sporting Rifle Matches in 2009 using my my .260 AW with its original barrel from GAP (from 2006).

I also think that .260 is a better choice than the 6.5x47, and specifically on the AI-AW platform in light of the issues detailed here.</div></div>

The original reporting of it was here
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=2
and here
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek084.html
and here
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5x47-lapua-tactical-rifle/?p=3

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

when is the next steel safari match

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

A couple other SH members and I went out Sunday morning for some extreme long range shooting. There were two AW's present: a GAP-barreled .260, and a factory .308; one AWSM in .338LM, and one AW50. The wind was real bad, but we were able to put a bunch of hits on a target WAY out there - we estimate 1600 or 1700 yards based on the dope we needed to apply to hit it.

We were shooting some 750gr AMAXs through the AW50...



... and at some point noticed this ...



Hmm, that's the pressure release "valve" (really a plastic disk) that covers the two vents from the bolt area. The AW50 has one such vent on either side of the receiver to safely vent pressure away from the shooter if there is a case rupture. Hey, wait, did that just fall out or something? Weird.

Well I was convinced that it couldn't have just fallen out, so I started to look through the fired brass and here's what I found:



So there was a gross defect in one of the LC cases. At some point we shot that round and didn't notice anything different - except it was almost certainly one of the "misses" - and kept shooting. Neither the shooter or observers noticed anything different at the time, nor did it affect the ability to make hits after the bad round (maybe 5 or 10 more rounds were shot until we noticed).

Being able to take a ruptured case head while igniting over 230gr of powder, make the condition safe for the shooter and not even noticeable at the time, and continue shooting accurately is a very strong testament to the engineering and design that went into this gun. In a lesser gun, this failure could have caused serious injuries and rendered the rifle inoperative.

When we went over the footage later, we actually found the footage of the bad round:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=257Du_JrCGg

And the obligatory "group" photo

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when is the next steel safari match
</div></div>
http://steelsafari.com
http://sportingriflematch.com

 

[BLANKSGUNS]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeap, this is the 2nd one in the past year I have seen or heard of now. So the good news is obviously, SAFE & STRONG, now the bad news, it needs to come to AINA for service, and you need to seriously scope the chamber for damage as well.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Thanks for the note. Your voicemail inbox is full. I sent you an email regarding details and my cell number.

thanks
-z

 

[BLANKSGUNS]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeap, sorry, I emailed you back, talk tomorrow, on the range today, in and out.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I would like to comment on my actual field expirences with various bolt action rifles. I have been shooting them for 45 years and fire 5,000-10,000 rounds a year for the last 10 or 12 years. 98% plus is handloaded by me. I will say that many of the failures are due to an overload or improperly resized case. I was raised in a hunting family and the "controlled round feed" and pre-64 model 70 Winchester were the only thing made. After more than 250,000 rounds fired, I have the following comments. All are to be considered personal opinion and dismissed as you see fit.
Faliures I have had.
#1 is failure to extract.
Worst offenders, Pre 64 Win, and rifles with "Sako" type extractors. Rugers as well.
Best "never failed" are Rem 700 and 98 Mauser
Failure to eject, Pre 64 Winchester and Ruger.
Best 98 Mauser
Worst at controlling escaping gas is Win 70 Best is Rem 700 and 98 Mauser.
Most reliable trigger 98 Mauser two stage. Can be tuned to perfection. Will not catch crap
Faliure to feed, custom actions. Won't name.
Personal favorite action for LR use, hunting, target and tactical
is the Rem 700. Surgeon action is near Rem 700 for reliability as would be expected.
Personal favorite action for big game hunting is Mauser 98 with Mauser trigger, two stage, properly tuned.
Just my opinion.

 

[Shane C.]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

When Shane's rifle had a last minute problem at the last Sporting Rifle Match of 2009, he shot my 7mm with only like 5 rounds to practice that morning, and managed to place 4th. Not bad for an unfamiliar rifle.

I was bummed my rifle went down. But, I was really was disappointed when I didn't beat him with his rifle.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

 

[Shane C.]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Backward knobs and floppy bi-pod

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The high score you shot using your rifle last year wasn't higher than what you shot with my 7.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Follow-up on .50 case failure

 

[desertHK]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Zak, what kind of velocity are you getting with the 750 AMAX out of your AW50?

 

[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Zak,

This looks tottaly "random." Did sectioning the case give you any insight into why it failed?

Jeff

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Hi i see a lot of custom rifles here we rebarrel and the biggest gripe i have is people thinking Benchrest tolerences are the Go even for F Class. we had a shoot where there was a safty issue and cease fire the shooter new he was hard into the lands and did not want to unload but had to result powder through the action. so out with the cleaning rod and tap it out then his action would not cam shut the powder in the bolt recess was binding it up and he had to borrow a rifle to finish the shoot with. It was a Stillar Python great action for the use but theit is no accuracy diference giving 5 or 20 thou clearence around the bolt nose on a rifle as long as the case is supported corectly ats far as possible i prefer some extra clearence for crap that blows up in our dusty dry ranges i have pieces of grass and grit in my Lawton all the time and it is working a treat.

As for tacticle actions one that has not been mentioned is the Steyr SSG69 they are a very accurate rifle and reliability is 100% however unless you have a P4 the barrels are harder to be refitted as the actions are not threaded and you need to do it to replace the barrels. other than that they are a great desighn and have been used in Austria as there primary sniper rifle for 40 years.

We have a Surgeon coming in to be rebarreled and a M852 is likley the chamber it will get so it has clearence to work everywhere and be accurate we will also have to machine the ejection port back because it regularly throws a case back into the port backwards. i personaly dont like the feel of the AI chassis system the forend would be 100% bettter if the pannels were molded with a radius on the bottom but this is a personal thing. the Sako's are a very nice rifle but can have issues with the rear attachment points of the but crushing over time. As for the mag issue of loading one less than their max capacity we have done that for years including when we used to have semi auto's in the Australian army we never loaded the max of 32 rounds into a steyr AUG mag they just dont work well and unless you are reloading with a bolt held back by the bolt lock they dont go in.

Some good points here and people have to think about the rifle that suits them.

We have a few shooters that tell people to take there good barrel out and use ther old barrel not to wear it out and their old barrels are out because they dont shoot well anymore this is the worst thing. if the barrel is nackered toss it somewhere you can never find it if you have a rifle that shoots where it is supposed to you will learn that that wild shot was you if the rifle throws shots you will never learn anything and progress to being a better shooter.

Shoot with the best ammo rifle and scope you can afford and learn from it a piece of crap will not help you at all. A realy good place to start learning is a factory Rem if funds are limited but the sky is the limit. but make sure the scope on the rifle is perfect because again you will be wasting your time if the rifle shoots and the scope is changing POI.

As for the Ammo i only use handloads with projectiles into the lands IF i can load one and eject it without the projectile moving in the case i measure before and after it is loaded and that has to be in a dirty chamber and barrel because they come out of clean barrels but get stuck in dirty chambers. and this is for F Class only the rest of the time the projectiles are at least 10 thou off every round that go's into my rifles is full length sized every time and i use temp sensitive powders and dont run max loads especialy in a tacticle or hunting type rifle where a malfunction could cost you.

 

[TorF]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for tacticle actions one that has not been mentioned is the Steyr SSG69 they are a very accurate rifle and reliability is 100% however unless you have a P4 the barrels are harder to be refitted as the actions are not threaded and you need to do it to replace the barrels. other than that they are a great desighn and have been used in Austria as there primary sniper rifle for 40 years.
</div></div>

I've experienced feeding trouble with the rotary mags in extreme cold like -20degC or colder. I had to tighten the magspring one extra rev to get the mags to feed.

I've also experienced misfires with M700 rifles in extreme cold with military berdan primed ammo.

I was once issued a M98 based sniperrifle and nothing beats it for reliability. This M98 had an offset scope for left eye and could be loaded with clips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KV-M59F1.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_M59

I put an S&B 6x42 with a zero stop BDC from 100-800m on mine. No mirage from heated barrel on this one . It actually worked much better than it looks. The qd mount was reliable and scope was carried in protective case on skipatrols. (There are no scopes that survives mounted on a rifle on a skipatrol..) The rifle could reliably make 10cm/4" 5 shot groups at 300m with 5 cold shots and scope removed from rifle between every shot using Raufoss 147gr ball ammo. I was issued this rifle in the cold war and as a "sniper in a country occupied by the Soviets" this kind of performance is good.

 

[GB213]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Tag

 

[King-Kong]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have seen Mauser actions whit different kinds of failures misfires, failure to feed etc etc. Most of those mauser were old or whit shitty lubrication.

Same goes whit Ak.

Well after three night (camp) out we had to start shooting blank.
Almost every one had ably some heavy lubrication before that camp. I think only 3 out of 25 could take those shot and it was only -15°C.

It was so epic. Some try to pull that charging handle but it wouldnt move. Well some of them did move when they started to stamp on that charging handle. One guy holding the gun and other stomping on that charging handle. Some of those rk-62 bolts were so badly frozen that firing pin just wouldnt move! It was our first "cold" weather camp.

Other rk-62 fails that i can remember:
#3-5 iron sight trouble
#One trigger failure.
#One folding stock fail off
#Couple firing pin troble. Old pins.
#5-7 Magazine failure

i have seen some Ak (Saiga,Norico,Arsenal,Sako) fails at the range for as well. Feeding problems, trigger trouble, magazine fails, etc etc.

Moust of these problems could have been avoided if the operator/armorer would have done their job right.

 

[Guest]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Why does this thread have 5 pages of posts? I know a vast majority of it has been a lot of "Ask Zak" AI Q&A which has been informative.



How can people not grasp the concept:
People fail
Machines fail
Thus, machines made and run by people fail

Now add quality to the equation:
Stupid people fail more often
Crappy machines fail more often

Shooter error aside, I don't think there is any dispute that the AW is superior to the 700 in the robust and reliable categories. That being said, I would put more faith in an experienced operator running a 700 than an amateur with an AW. Anyone who claims 100% reliability is either lying or doesn't use said product as intended.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Good thread! Makes me want an AI even more...

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I did see an AI "malfunction" at the '10 Steel Safari. As the shooter approached each shooting station, he had his magazine (AW) in his pocket. At one station, it failed to feed and he ejected the mag and rounds were falling out. He single fed to finish the stage. I examined the magazine right then and the culprit was a <span style="font-weight: bold">penny</span> stuck under the follower. I do not fault the rifle design for that - it was operator error.

I do have some SEM photographs of the failed 50BMG case. I will post another thread with all the info there later.

 

[TorF]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KingKong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen Mauser actions whit different kinds of failures misfires, failure to feed etc etc. Most of those mauser were old or whit shitty lubrication.

Same goes whit Ak.

Well after three night (camp) out we had to start shooting blank.
Almost every one had ably some heavy lubrication before that camp. I think only 3 out of 25 could take those shot and it was only -15°C.

It was so epic. Some try to pull that charging handle but it wouldnt move. Well some of them did move when they started to stamp on that charging handle. One guy holding the gun and other stomping on that charging handle. Some of those rk-62 bolts were so badly frozen that firing pin just wouldnt move! It was our first "cold" weather camp.

Other rk-62 fails that i can remember:
#3-5 iron sight trouble
#One trigger failure.
#One folding stock fail off
#Couple firing pin troble. Old pins.
#5-7 Magazine failure

i have seen some Ak (Saiga,Norico,Arsenal,Sako) fails at the range for as well. Feeding problems, trigger trouble, magazine fails, etc etc.

Moust of these problems could have been avoided if the operator/armorer would have done their job right.
</div></div>

If you run an unmodified M98K "by the book" there are no malfunctions (except the very odd exception)

If you want to run a weapon in extreme cold without hazzle you should do what the russians do: boil the action in water to get rid of all grease and oil and run it completely dry. I've tried it in -35C and it works.

Mobil 1 synthetic engine oil is also great for running MG3, MG34 and G3 at -30C

 

[ChrisF]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

In reguards to the Steyr SSG series of rifle , realise that this was cutting edge in 1969 when it was adopted by the Austian Army .

Also just because you have not heard of any problems , dose not make it so .

I look at the SSG as a reasonable SWS , but by no means Top tier .

The main area's ( problems ) that I have heard mentioned are the stock & magazine , the mags break & the stocks break thru the wrist area .

I have also heard of the small parts in the trigger group & bolt also breaking as well as the plastic trigger guard / mag housing .

I have seen photos of the Steyr SSG PII that was used in the NZ Army trials in 1991 , and it broke clean thru the wrist area , I was also told that they had trouble using it in the wet / rain , as its poi changed markedly from whe the rifle was dry .

The main attraction of the SSG , now would be one of small size/weight .

Later Chris

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People screwing up the trigger adjustments are a big, big problem. Including some gunsmiths who listen to customers and want them around 1lbs. Or with the AIs they don't understand what a 2 stage trigger is and think they have "Creep" and then try to adjust the trigger down to a single stage trigger which is dumb.

I have never touched a trigger on my AWs, or AE, they are perfect from the start. </div></div>That is hilarious! I had a guy at the range ogling my gun yesterday. He was a benchrest competitor from years past, and was practicing for a highpower match that day.

He felt my trigger and was like "good god, this thing has a TON of creep!" I'm surprised an experience shooter couldn't tell a 2 stage trigger when he felt one.

A little off topic, but you should have seen how horrified the guy got when he found out I had gone over 300 rounds since my last cleaning as well. Told me I was going to ruin my barrel.

 

[recurry]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cazorp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously AW is the better choice compared to almost anything when it comes to reliability since we Swede's had a saying in the development of that rifle, and here in Sweden we always prepare for the worst, including aliens..

</div></div>

This is reassuring - I do a lot of hunting in cornfields and you never know when you're going to run smack into a bunch of aliens that are trying to lay down a crop circle at three in the morning.

 

[TimResin]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Great thread but I have a good question what about some of us that really can't stand the AI stock but love the action?

Got to try a AWSM last week and lost the action but I can't stand the stock. And so I looked into the Badger action but was wondering if the Badger was as bullet proof as the actual thing?

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great thread but I have a good question what about some of us that really can't stand the AI stock but love the action?

Got to try a AWSM last week and lost the action but I can't stand the stock. And so I looked into the Badger action but was wondering if the Badger was as bullet proof as the actual thing? </div></div>Try a TRG. If I didn't have an AW or if the AW stock didn't work, I would have one. They are excellent, the action is butter smooth, and the trigger is the best of any stock gun I've tried.

 

[cazorp]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recurry</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cazorp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously AW is the better choice compared to almost anything when it comes to reliability since we Swede's had a saying in the development of that rifle, and here in Sweden we always prepare for the worst, including aliens..

</div></div>

This is reassuring - I do a lot of hunting in cornfields and you never know when you're going to run smack into a bunch of aliens that are trying to lay down a crop circle at three in the morning.
</div></div>

Well, there you go - the obvious answer to corn field hunting is made by AI