We get it, you love your king. Nothing wrong with that. I too want an AI Rifle. Will that makes us brothers if I get one?
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AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?
- Thread starter 300WSM
- Start date
We get it, you love your king. Nothing wrong with that. I too want an AI Rifle. Will that makes us brothers if I get one?
There's probably far more than 20-30x the number of 700's compared to AI's so lets take actual Remington manufactured actions off the table for the sake of discussion. How many Stiller, Defiance, Surgeon, Badger, or any other aftermarket actions exist compared to the AI? I'd wager AI has more rifles in the wild than any of those companies. Out of a potentially smaller sample size we still see / hear / read about failures at a much higher rate than AI.
The funny thing about numbers, real or otherwise is they always seem to support AI as being the more reliable platform.
I'd venture a guess that there are far more custom after-market actions than the AI but, again, most of the people here point a finger at the Remington breakdowns and say clearly the 700 loses...That's not reality.
I'm not disagreeing they support reliability...I'm disagreeing that a stock to stock comparison is fair.
I can buy a Remington in practically every gunshop in america. Can I buy an AI? No.
Can I buy a Stiller or a Defiance or a Badger...No.
When a comparison of like product is done, by quality smiths...Let's say a GAP vs. an AI, the results are similar...In terms of everything.
If my extractor breaks it's a 10 minute fix...It's the most likely part to break on any R700...Aftermarket or not...Again, why we have the Saiko...We have solutions for these issues...
What happens if the AI bolt breaks down in the field?
There are too many misnomers to make an accurate assumption about either gun, really...And thus the issue.
What's actually proprietary to the AI that makes it a better rifle?
Well, one thing that's cool is that I can pull the bolt out of one AI (same action length of course) and put it in another AI and roll on while you're fucking around for those extra 9 minutes and 30 seconds. Pretty sure the AE/AW are cross-compatible as well.
I'm pretty sure in that same vid, the zero was pretty close if not spot on after changing barrels multiple times and banging the gun on the concrete deck.
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I can have my Gunsmith make 4 of the same exact rifles and do the same thing...Same shit that was in the video...All for half the price.
Is it convenient? Yes because they're all made the same but, it's nothing proprietary.
The 10 minute thing was hypothetical...I've done it in under 2 but, your point is well taken...Still, what if I carry 2-3 bolts? It so happens that I have an extra 2 piece from PTG but, again, that's a quick fix if an extractor breaks...What happens if your AI bolt breaks down and you have nothing to replace it with?
Do you hold your dick until a replacement comes or can you work on it on the spot? Honest question btw.
All for 1/2 the price, you realize the AT is $4000 so you are gonna make a bulletproof Switch Barrel rifle for $2000... ?
Show me ...
If you AI bolt breaks down... how ? They don't break down, that is the point. Did you not read what AI said about repairs, returns, etc. ?
Show me ...
If you AI bolt breaks down... how ? They don't break down, that is the point. Did you not read what AI said about repairs, returns, etc. ?
You guys in your Hypothetical, "What if"...
What if we live in reality ... how about that. Custom Sticks are every bit the price of an AI today. Period.
The best after market parts are still subject to problems, take the Jewell Trigger, we all know they can and do fail under harsh conditions.
if you want to stripe the Remington down, replace everything and call it bulletproof, great, but that takes time and money and still it has no guarantees. Nothing does, but history can not be rewritten here, and hypothetical statements doesn't change any of it.
I like Remington too, I use a lot of Remingtons, they are cheap, easy, with a lot of aftermarket support. But when the world ends, the one rifle in my hand will be an AI. And I am sure if you are walking the Post Apocalyptic and find an AI, you drop whatever is in your hand to grab that one rifle.
What if we live in reality ... how about that. Custom Sticks are every bit the price of an AI today. Period.
The best after market parts are still subject to problems, take the Jewell Trigger, we all know they can and do fail under harsh conditions.
if you want to stripe the Remington down, replace everything and call it bulletproof, great, but that takes time and money and still it has no guarantees. Nothing does, but history can not be rewritten here, and hypothetical statements doesn't change any of it.
I like Remington too, I use a lot of Remingtons, they are cheap, easy, with a lot of aftermarket support. But when the world ends, the one rifle in my hand will be an AI. And I am sure if you are walking the Post Apocalyptic and find an AI, you drop whatever is in your hand to grab that one rifle.
I never said it would have a switch barrel capability...However, we could always notch the barrel, machine a wrench and make 2/3 swaps for significantly less than the extra barrels.
I know of 2/3 guys that do that now with their 308's...They notched their barrels similar to AR's and make the swaps themselves...Don't even need a go/no go...
The point here is simple...Anyone can replicate AI's manufacturing process because there's nothing special about it. Nothing patented...At least nothing anyone has yet to prove within the 4 corners of this thread. The only real manufacturing ability they have thus far, is the ability to produce the same exact rifle, in mass. Thus, parts can easily be swapped if one goes down...But, the same is true of your basic Remington...So, aside from manufacturing, I have yet to see something special.
So, if I wanted to take that Badger M2013, throw it on an an AX stock with a Timney, I'm still 1k less than the AI and I could easily notch the barrels and have a switch barrel -- There's nothing proprietary...I'd obviously need bolts, true those heads...I'm not saying it's without work but, again, very doable.
I do plan on buying an AI MC as I stated earlier but, none of you are actually selling this rifle...There is not a single unique part to that gun other than the current switch barrel design which, comes at a very reasonable price.
Your singular point of discussion goes back to the bolt and how it doesn't break down -- What if it does? - Everything I've read says I'm boned.
What good does a $4000 rifle do me with switch barrels if I'm completely screwed the moment the bolt goes down?
If my Remington extractor goes, boom, fixed. Firing pin? Boom, fixed. I consider that a reliable situation considering I can reliably fix it if SHTF.
If you're so willing to ignore someone making a valid argument than I could honestly give a shit less.
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Really, a Badger 2013 in an Chassis at $1k less than $4000...
Again, show me, how about living in reality. Having a friend do you a favor is not the same.
The bolt's don't go down,.. we have already established that. AI has spoken on it.
You're making stuff up,
Again, show me, how about living in reality. Having a friend do you a favor is not the same.
The bolt's don't go down,.. we have already established that. AI has spoken on it.
You're making stuff up,
sure. where is it? can I follow you around? you seem to be one of the cool kids around here.. I want to follow a cool kid around, learn from him. hopefully be is friend too.
I'm saying what if. You say they don't go down -- There's a reason we call military intelligence an oxymoron.
The bolts don't go down? That's really an assumption you want to make?
Right now, I can snag a AX chassis from Mile High for 1200. A Stiller/Defiance from Bugholes for 1k. A Bartlein for 350. Timney or a Jewel 250-350.
Action won't need to be trued in either of those, maybe the bolt...Plus the reaming. We now have a custom rifle for $3200. So let's go above/beyond that. Order a PTG custom bolt...Order another barrel...+ the work, I'd estimate $800/barrel "kit" including setup. Let's notch it too for the tool...And a tool - I'd say $4200 out the door with a second barrel system.
Now obviously, that's not a badger...But, comparably a badger is only $200 more so...There you go.
60 Countries use AI, they have been doing this since the 1990s... there is a track record.
You have no idea, if you don't think you Custom Action needs to be checked and trued, you're not paying attention.
You keep making shit up, and being ridiculous along the way.
60 Countries, using it a Military Rifle, most seeing Combat... that is far beyond the punishment of a Weekend Gamer.
You have no idea, if you don't think you Custom Action needs to be checked and trued, you're not paying attention.
You keep making shit up, and being ridiculous along the way.
60 Countries, using it a Military Rifle, most seeing Combat... that is far beyond the punishment of a Weekend Gamer.
Frank, that's not what I said. I said: Action won't need to be trued in either of those, maybe the bolt referring to the Stiller/Defiance. I actually have had a Stiller where the bolt face had to be trued. So, I'd double check everything.
I made nothing up, went to Bugholes.com for all of the prices with the exception of the chassis since I ordered mine from Mile High and the same goes for the action.
Again, I'm not doubting the AI, I intend to buy one but, none of you, not a single one of you have yet to show me anything special about that rifle beyond it's manufacturing and switch-barrel capability.
Is it a proven rifle? Sure...Nobody is doubting you or that, it's a bad-ass rifle...But, right now, I can duplicate every single proprietary thing about that rifle myself. So can any gunsmith with half a brain.
Is it manufactured well? Yes...Definitely, no shit...and they keep making them well, no arguments there...But, what's so special that AI has that I can't get ANYWHERE else?
So far, there's nothing...And I'm not making anything up, even called my smith for pricing...We can literally make a swap barrel custom Remington 700 with 1 "kit" for $4200.
Also, saying that bolt is never going to go down? Coming from you man...That hurts a little. I'd never ever, not ever, take the word of the manufacturer, even if it is AI...Everything worth doing is worth overdoing...Would have a 2nd bolt in my bag 100% of the time for the just in case.
I don't know man...Not doubting this AI fanbase, not one bit, it's well deserved for a quality product but, atm that product is something that I can easily replicate...Or anyone can for that matter...Within the same realm of quality? That's debatable...But, it is what it is.
You are a waste of energy and not living in reality.
It's that simple and I'm not the only one saying this..
Stick to your what if, take a chance, do whatever,
I'm done with you.
You do realize until the PSR, AI would not even sell you a spare bolt.
It's that simple and I'm not the only one saying this..
Stick to your what if, take a chance, do whatever,
I'm done with you.
You do realize until the PSR, AI would not even sell you a spare bolt.
Don't know why a quick change barrel is considered so "INNOVATIVE". The MG42 had a quick change barrel since 1942! and I am sure there are many guns before it that also had that option.
I myself have been quick changing my XCR barrel (one allen bolt) since 2008! Swapping between 556 and 7.62x39 is a breeze.. hell this should be the standard for all guns.
I myself have been quick changing my XCR barrel (one allen bolt) since 2008! Swapping between 556 and 7.62x39 is a breeze.. hell this should be the standard for all guns.
I did not know that...But, saying I'm not living in reality?
I just got off the phone with another smith and it's very doable. Set the barrels up for the same action. Set the bolts up for the same spacing...All I ultimately need, if anything is a barrel vice.
People typically Remage at that point but, it's 100% possible on a Remington 700 platform. -- I'm also not saying go SA to LA or Mag to SA...I'm saying that within the caliber tree, this is doable...And it's really not that much work.
Make all of the barrels the same, ream them, do the work...The only issue in a swap barrel Remington is tightening the barrel. - Oversize the base, notch it, make a proprietary tool, draw a line, use a go/no-go if you like and you actually have a swap barrel Remington. -- I've priced it out for you already so, I don't think we need to hit that again.
This is me, living in reality...In fact, you're tempting me to do it just because I want to prove you wrong...Did I say it was easy? No...I said doable. Doable in 2 minutes? No...Might take me 10...But, it's a swap barrel Remington.
Clearly the AI has an advantage but, to say this setup is impossible? That's a straight up lie...Because it's been done before.
AI came up with a brilliant quick-swap barrel design that's easy but, I fail to see anything unique about it that I can't do already with a little elbow grease...
It's accurate...It's reliable...The quick swap is nice...There's nothing unique thus far about that rifle except that it's made in England.
Not trying to piss you off but, it seems like I'm the only realist in this entire thread...And I'm not even trying to troll, I'm just pointing out the facts.
[MENTION=76201]Masked[/MENTION]
I'm sorry we've failed to sell you on the AI platform. Just forget about the AI, it's nothing special. Build the custom swap barrel and be sure to use the Jewell trigger. This should give you an accurate and highly reliable platform that you'll enjoy for years to come.
I'm sorry we've failed to sell you on the AI platform. Just forget about the AI, it's nothing special. Build the custom swap barrel and be sure to use the Jewell trigger. This should give you an accurate and highly reliable platform that you'll enjoy for years to come.
You would be a realist if you figured in Labor to build your dream rifle.
You figured everything but the time to build it, I suppose if you call the smith back tell him you ordered the parts and you want it done for nothing your price comparison might just about come in under $4k.
Call GAP and order one and then report back back what they want for a cost.
You figured everything but the time to build it, I suppose if you call the smith back tell him you ordered the parts and you want it done for nothing your price comparison might just about come in under $4k.
Call GAP and order one and then report back back what they want for a cost.
The AI's come that way from the factory...as is...nature of the beast while you have to have yours fitted by your smith. I don't have the luxury of a "my smith". If I were to ever have a problem, I would rather deal with AI for parts rather than wait several months with a smith to help me out so the drop-in capability is HUGE to someone like me. I can't say i've been to any training or critical scenario without the spare bolt on hand. I don't do long-range/precision comps...they aren't too common in this area, and seeing the behavior of some on this forum, there is no way in HELL I would take the time and resources to travel to one. But to answer your question, if my rifle took a shit, I would probably be fucked even if I could fix it...the ball would be in someone else's court.
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I would like to see a custom switch barrel like Masked is describing be built and run against a comparable AI. We can agree to a budget, Masked can take lead on design and production (provided it is based on a Rem 700 or clone action) and then run the two guns. Points will be awarded for accuracy, reliability, and price differential.
Who's in?
Who's in?
Since Frank wasn't military intelligence and that is public knowledge, your remark was obviously regarding the military in general.
Does AI allow us to buy spare parts? Do they have a schematic and a parts list we can reference? and who do we call to buy AI parts?
In the past, you were never allowed to buy AI parts... every now and then a few have trickled out, but generally speaking no.
With the PSR, and now the new AX338MC, you might be able to by the bolts and parts to change the caliber, but it will be just the bolt for that and maybe the insert for the magazine.
But you can't by spare parts.
With the PSR, and now the new AX338MC, you might be able to by the bolts and parts to change the caliber, but it will be just the bolt for that and maybe the insert for the magazine.
But you can't by spare parts.
Can someone post some pictures of an AI bolt or a link, I would like to see what they look like. Don't know a thing about AI
I have the luxury of not being forced to guess. Simply stated and trying to be polite, you are not correct.
Some of the clones I've owned were built by great builders and they did a wonderful job. The basic design has limits - the trigger, ejection, and receiver coming loose are issues I've personally experienced. Have not had the same with my AI, which is why I went to it - out of frustration. It would have been far less expensive if I had bought it first.
Already done it. Sold all of the R700's and clones except for a GAP Surgeon build, which is my wife's favorite rifle, and kept the AI-AW.
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If you want to see a close up, watch the videos I did ...
Stuff like the 1 finger take down of the bolt, the barrel change, stock, etc... all in the videos I did
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/O7BZQ-boWG0?list=UUwHsnyWOaQNtrGjJKsTgegg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Stuff like the 1 finger take down of the bolt, the barrel change, stock, etc... all in the videos I did
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/O7BZQ-boWG0?list=UUwHsnyWOaQNtrGjJKsTgegg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I don't suppose you but them both through an endurance course and videotaped it for my amusement, did you?
Only heat, sand, and dust of South Texas during our worst drought in recorded history.
Some photos hopefully will convey the idea and include examples of both in use.
When this guy shows, I really would like things to work and could care less about warranties or 15 minutes with the toolbox.
Accuracy is helpful in addition to reliability.
Worked over R700 in the field:
AI in the field:
That is pretty great. I wish I had been able to do some hunting during my all too brief time in Texas. I was in Austin during the summer of 2011 and it was murderous.
Only heat, sand, and dust of South Texas during our worst drought in recorded history.
Some photos hopefully will convey the idea and include examples of both in use.
When this guy shows, I really would like things to work and could care less about warranties or 15 minutes with the toolbox.
Accuracy is helpful in addition to reliability.
Worked over R700 in the field:
AI in the field:
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My boy got Ai ae in 260 for Xmas. He's fired two shots at deer and both dead. He just turned 12 and too me he would never own nothing but AI. I told him to be prepared to make lots of money. I have to get me one now!
Everyone should love their rifles as much as you guys love your AI's. However, how can you call it a combat rifle if you can't even get spares for it?
Also I was in the Army, I know what FIELD USE truly means. You guys think by carrying and shooting the rifle outdoors, well that is considered field use. I know how what real field use is. Military guys abuse their gear, and it's not from use! they abuse them from everyday activity, such as throwing them in the bed of a 5-ton when they enter the vehicle, or Dropping them from heights on concrete after dismounting from the same 5-ton, etc, etc. I am sure no one here does that to their $5k rifle that they paid for with their own money.
Also I was in the Army, I know what FIELD USE truly means. You guys think by carrying and shooting the rifle outdoors, well that is considered field use. I know how what real field use is. Military guys abuse their gear, and it's not from use! they abuse them from everyday activity, such as throwing them in the bed of a 5-ton when they enter the vehicle, or Dropping them from heights on concrete after dismounting from the same 5-ton, etc, etc. I am sure no one here does that to their $5k rifle that they paid for with their own money.
nope, and I don't treat my guns I own now like I treated my Service guns, my issued SAW, M60, A3, 1911, or Grease Gun.
At least with Remington's you can carry spare triggers and spare bolts.. that does not seem to be an option with an AI.
Reminder: I am an AI fanboi, and I WANT ONE!
Reminder: I am an AI fanboi, and I WANT ONE!
When I say 60 countries use them, you realize that means Armies right.
What they get in terms of parts might be different from what they sell civilians.
I dont think they are worried about your understanding of the situation.
What they get in terms of parts might be different from what they sell civilians.
I dont think they are worried about your understanding of the situation.
Why not? The parts are interchangeable between rifles, and much easier to swap than R700's. Bolts swap between different rifles as do triggers.
Having said that, I've never heard of a bolt failing on an AI.
I am sure these Army get great support via their chain of command, with mucho parts, and they probably even have new spare rifles on their Arms-Room racks. However, I am not an Army, and do not have such options... and I could care less if they understand my situation or not.
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