I think this could be very educational and interesting. Shoot me a PM with the caliber and I will let you know if I currently have the pilot.
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AMP really worth the extra $$$$$$
- Thread starter Ruslow
- Start date
Hadn't seen any replies, busy with SHOT updates and purchases.
If any annealing on amp is needed by anyone for testing, we likely have the pilot and if not, will get it. It's a service we offer so mo pilots is mo betta.
But anyone wanting a fairly small amount seriously for testing, just pay shipping. (please don't anyone say they need 500 or 1000 pcs for testing. LOL)
If any annealing on amp is needed by anyone for testing, we likely have the pilot and if not, will get it. It's a service we offer so mo pilots is mo betta.
But anyone wanting a fairly small amount seriously for testing, just pay shipping. (please don't anyone say they need 500 or 1000 pcs for testing. LOL)
Wanna trade me for some pilots? I have several I don't need that are brand new. I will help out with the test to as I said
I have some AMP pilots as follows (#11, #73, #73, #50,
AMP Annealers are on sale to clear stock for the new one with the touch sceen that is on display at shot show. It pushed me over the edge so I ordered one tonight, and the question on what annealer to buy is now done for me.
shop.ampannealing.com
Brass Annealer For Sale Buy The MARK II AMP
FREE Shipping Anywhere in the U.S. via FedEx Includes: MARK II Induction annealerInstruction ManualAZTEC MODEUSB CableDust CoverStandard brass shell holder grip4x Rubber Base feetPower cableAMP hat For the warranty please click here. *Cooling tray, case tray, pilot and brass not included.Run out...
shop.ampannealing.com
is this a joke?
AMP press with those curves which are totaly useless and nobody, I mean REALY NOBODY doesnt look at them anymore !! because they mean NOTHING!
just like your super expensive priming tool and your primer seating depth testings, but in reality your tool is the most inconsistent priming tool on the market !
As per usual, you're wrong and making incorrect statements.
There are plenty still using the AMP Press. It's just another comparative tool. What shooter A's graph looks like has nothing to do with shooter B's graph. You use the press to get a baseline on what your preferred loading method produces in a graph, and if you see a graph that looks substantially different, you are able to troubleshoot and figure out why. Many times it's something that doesn't matter, but sometimes it does.
I have personally used it, and know others who have as well, to identify something failing in the process. One time was an issue with a trimmer pilot that had picked up too much brass and was roughing up the inside of the case neck. It resulted in less consistent velocity when fired. Not to mention, just the auto run itself is worth it if you load a very high volume of rounds. You seem to think the AMP press is advertised as something other than a comparative tool.
Also, you're basing your opinion of the CPS on one person's video who ended up not being the authority on testing many thought he was. Not actual personal experience.
Just like you base most of your purported knowledge on incorrectly interpreting data from Applied Ballistics and others.
Is it conicidence that I"m ignoring content by BOTH of the people you quoted (Porkan and SnarkySnark)?
Is a touch screen with DB/memory worth $275 over the current price, if one didn’t have an annealing device at all and was considering getting one down the line?
I could convince a buddy to let me borrow his. I’m a low volume shooter.
I could convince a buddy to let me borrow his. I’m a low volume shooter.
If you don't do a lot of different cartridges and such......it'll be hard to say. Personal preference if you don't want to write down codes or save them on another electronic device/cloud. I can't see how the touchscreen would improve life much over the current buttons. So the memory would be the important diffference.
I think on their part, this is just a quality of life evolution of their product that is aimed more towards new users rather than current users. Hence the price is relatively the same going forward.
I'd buy the new device, or wait for guys with money to burn to sell the MarkII for a discount greater than the current $200 manufacturer discount. Remember, those latter machines will depreciate. I'm thinking $1200ish shipped in a couple of months.
Ask yourself this ;
1. How many rounds a year do you shoot and reload ?
2. What types of competition do you shoot ? And how many require MOA out to 1000 yds , or sub MOA at 100 & 200 yards
3. What is your level of competition ? beginner or Pro ? And would any winnings justify the cost of the AMP ?
4. What Equip. up grades could you make for the cost of the AMP ?
My suggestion, either watch the classifieds for gas annealers OR , do a little research and see what features $ 350.00 will buy you.
I have been watching the classifieds and when I saw the price drop I just jumped on it.
I actually wanted the buttons and don't mind just adding the AZTEC codes to my loading books. The free shipping was just an even better deal.
I say jump all over the discount price on the current unit and save money. It’s amazing as is and the new features to me mean nothing.
Annealing aka ductility restoring in cartridge cases prolongs case life , by preventing delaying neck and shoulder splitting as well as benefiting neck tension . Other than that it doesn't do squat . Personally I prefer cases fired in MY chambers ,annealed resized to MY specs and using said cases over and over until they stretch so far as to become unusable . That # of reloads is elusive and variable dependent upon several factors .
However I've gotten as many as #54 reloads on the same cases in 7.62X51mm and Yes they were LC . I stopped before failure as I cut a couple of cases for thickness evaluation and one was exhibiting excessive thinning ,so scrapped those well used cases .
Brass hasn't gotten any cheaper and Military spec .30 Cal and 7.62X51mm can be difficult to obtain ,not to mention costly and nearly exhausted in case of .30 Cal M2 . One can use commercial ammo and cases , however I personally find torn rims and thinner cases produce far fewer reloading's than Military grade cases . #80 + year old battle rifles extractors can be ruthless or brutal on commercial cases .
The weed in the PNW has gotten too strong. Hence the previous post.
The amp guys did that's linked ITT. Otherwise I think some are planning to do that but no other tests that I know unless someone like @Ledzep has done it.
I wasn’t really lacking in accuracy prior to getting the amp, but I didn’t notice any specific accuracy improvement after
But like I said in my earlier post, that’s not why I got one
But like I said in my earlier post, that’s not why I got one
I don't know if anyone besides Sierra has a 300 yd. test tunnel and test machine. 15 cases, all fired in their test bbl. then, 5 rounds AMP annealed, 5 rounds flame annealed and 5 rounds just fired, then , all resized and loaded with a Sierra bullet of their choice so everyone could compare the 3 groups against what they have on record.
I don't see why anything other than SD or ES over radar would be needed. I think most are fine with those metrics at risk of waiting for someone with a testing tunnel to do this (in which case I really hope they shoot more than 15 shots)
right, so why are you introducing something into your reloading procedure that doesn't have any proof of improving your accuracy?
You're just using this to get a few more firings out of brass? are you really using old 10x fired brass on new barrels when you swap? if that's all I'm missing out on I'll keep buying new brass when I swap barrels (it would take 3 lifetimes of shooting to offset the cost of. brass vs the amp)
What I did was 20x virgin cases (baseline) vs. 20x cases on 3rd firing vs. 1x case reloaded 20 times with AMP anneal between each firing.
Basically the only difference I saw was that the 1st firing (virgin brass) was 10-15fps slower on average in all situations. The AMP annealing kept the neck soft enough to never split and I eventually case-head separated the case at 22 firings. ES/SD was pretty much the same across the board, just a shift in the average after the 1st firing that stayed steady. No notable dispersion difference.
I haven't large-sample tested when cases will neck split, nor the effects of going 4+ firings without annealing, but I can say anecdotally around 5-7 is when you start seeing it and you can feel the difference when seating bullets. What net effect that has I don't know.
ETA: In general, my opinion on brass prep at this point is that you can go out of your way to screw things up by ruining brass, mixing mfgs, mixing lots maybe... But generally speaking brass prep is a waste of time. Most case weight variation is accounted for by variations in extractor groove cuts. ES in case volume is eclipsed almost immediately by orders of magnitude once the bullet moves into the bore. I size it, trim it, anneal it (purely for life span), and chamfer the mouth myself.
I did a batch of cases that I neck turned, neck honed, sorted by volume, deburred flash holes, uniformed primer pockets, chamfered and deburred. Next to a batch of randomly grabbed virgin cases that I chamfered/deburred and ran with, there was no compelling evidence to ever do the work in the former again.
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I thought you had some info on this and had done some testing.
So.... is this just for 223/556 cases you've tested or have you done larger caliber rifle as well? Any other relevant info?
I can try to dig back through and see if there's any tests results but unfortunately I started the large sample testing at a time before the lab had the acoustic target setup and many of the targets were physical paper cut-outs. I know that what I outlined above I have a digital copy of and it was done with 6mm ARC.
It wouldn't be very difficult to replicate in a 6.5 Creedmoor or something this winter though. Just gotta take over the lab on a Saturday when nobody is there and set up all the equipment.
What do you want to see specifically?
Well ideally 6cm or 6.5cm. I'd like to see what different there is between 2x, 3x 4x and 5x fired brass that's not annealed vs brass that's annealed each time and if there's any difference in ES or on target. That's a pretty significant test though. I could supply the brass but I don't know if I have any that hasn't been annealed. Actually I'm not sure if it really matters if it's ever been annealed, just that it wasn't annealed, and then fired 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, and 5x vs same lot of brass that's annealed each firing.
Probably something I will have to do for myself but if you did it with 6arc, it's hard to imagine different results with a 6cm or 6.5cm, so .....
Did you use lapua brass when you did your 6arc test?
I didn’t add annealing for accuracy to begin with…I was already annealing with a Giraud prior to the AMP, I just swapped tools
I originally added it years back for consistent bump/sizing to aid reliability…no tight chambering rounds shooting in nasty field conditions
the cost of the brass or the AMP was not a factor for me, neither mattered. If it is for u, don’t buy one. I’d buy brass in 500pc lots and yes I’d run them thru however many barrels i could until I lost too many pieces in the grass and dirt to make 250-300 rounds for a 2 day match…then I’d buy another 500
I wanted a case I sized the 5th, 6th…10th time to bump/size the same as the first go round. Which they wouldn’t do prior to annealing
Gotcha. So you introduced an unknown variable in your reloading setup to “aid reliability…. No tight chambering rounds”
I can afford the amp just fine. I’m asking why people are just arbitrarily doing it for seemingly no reason or articulable improvement in accuracy, like you just told me above (except to chamber rounds??)
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It was Hornady for the 6 ARC. I have, however, tested Peterson, Hornady, and Lapua in 6.5 creedmoor and saw no measurable difference between them. From other, but semi-related tests, the Lapua heads have better grain structure and will ultimately last longer, especially at >65,000psi loadings, but from an ES/SD or dispersion perspective, no real difference. Again, my opinion is buy same mfg, same lot, and anneal at an interval that prevents splits and most brass prep is a waste of time. Did not get a chance to look at Peterson grain structure. I'm sure it's great.
I know I'm going against a lot of long-held beliefs with this, but as long as the cases hold the bullet somewhat consistently, are strong enough to hold the primer, and are pretty similar in internal volume, you're gonna need a lot of shots to see a measurable difference. Every time I've gone into these tests believing I'll see at least some measurable difference-- even if it's small-- that makes the work potentially worth it to some shooters.... and every time I get results that are basically identical to random grabbed same-lot virgin cases. I believe I've read Litz has more or less seen the same thing.
If you treat Lapua brass right, I've been able to get 30-40 firings out of it. If you treat Winchester/Hornady/Remington brass right you're usually talking 15-25 firings. If you're blowing primer pockets in Lapua in 5-15 firings you're probably running 75,000psi loads. If you're blowing Hornady primer pockets in 3 firings you're for sure well over 65,000 psi. You can "Well I'm within book data" me all day long-- I've tested it in multiple cartridges multiple times in calibrated P&V barrels. It takes 68+ksi unless something in mfg was messed up, which despite popular opinion is uncommon.
I can probably do 5-6 firings in the same 20 cases in a 6.5 Creedmoor sometime.
Take note of his last two sentences. He noticed changes in the way the brass sized over the brass' lifetime. Meaning, when he didn't anneal he was having to adjust his die to get the desired amount of sizing. Annealing alleviated this.
If the brass is reacting differently to sizing from firing to firing, the only way to know if that matters on target is to test. And test a ton. Since you'd have no idea when precision will change. It could change every firing, every other, every five, or doesn't change at all. But, you'd only know if you tested each firing.
The alternative is to eliminate one variable (the inconsistent sizing from firing to firing) via annealing and save yourself either large volume testing or knowing that you don't actually know if it's going to hurt your performance.
you're back! did you bring any proof with you? I see you did not.
no, you don't need to test on target. ES, and because you love it, SD would be the preferred testing here for whether the spring-back you are negating is actually causing a difference.
annealing alleviated the need to move his die - yeah, he didn't even remotely say that.
What do you say to our boy above who did some testing, you have zero proof and no testing.
Thats my point! You’re doing something in your process that you don’t actually think (or have proof of) having any positive correlation to accuracy. That makes no sense to me
So then you agree it has no relevance to accuracy and you’re just doing it to increase brass longetivity? I would accept that but people are on here talking about the benefits it has to accuracy which I’m suggesting there is nothing to support.
No, again… I’m doing it for sizing consistency…i dont think I mentioned longevity at all? Don’t particularly care.
I already said in the post you originally quoted I didn’t see any obvious difference in accuracy…it was more than acceptable before and remained so after.
I won’t say it can’t have an effect in other cases, because I haven’t specifically set out to test it thoroughly in multiple rifles over large enough samples to have a firm stance on it
If you’re suggesting it does nothing for accuracy, go prove it to them
People are shooting all over the country where they keep score
I already said in the post you originally quoted I didn’t see any obvious difference in accuracy…it was more than acceptable before and remained so after.
I won’t say it can’t have an effect in other cases, because I haven’t specifically set out to test it thoroughly in multiple rifles over large enough samples to have a firm stance on it
If you’re suggesting it does nothing for accuracy, go prove it to them
People are shooting all over the country where they keep score
@Maurygold
Might want to swing over to this thread and clear this misunderstanding up.
www.snipershide.com
Might want to swing over to this thread and clear this misunderstanding up.
Optics - Trijicon Accupoint tr-23
Trijicon Accupoint tr-23 With green illumination and mil dot reticle. Has moa turrets that have seen some action and I captured that in photos. Glass is perfect and functions 100% perfect. $650 no mount.
www.snipershide.com
@Maurygold
Might want to swing over to this thread and clear this misunderstanding up.
Optics - Trijicon Accupoint tr-23
Trijicon Accupoint tr-23 With green illumination and mil dot reticle. Has moa turrets that have seen some action and I captured that in photos. Glass is perfect and functions 100% perfect. $650 no mount.
You’re a moron. These are scammers with no history. But good deflection
I love that you went after me personally instead of the science I’m asking about in this thread. What a low down approach to life.
@Maurygold
Might want to swing over to this thread and clear this misunderstanding up.
Optics - Trijicon Accupoint tr-23
Trijicon Accupoint tr-23 With green illumination and mil dot reticle. Has moa turrets that have seen some action and I captured that in photos. Glass is perfect and functions 100% perfect. $650 no mount.
So like you going to apologize for being a dick or not?
WTF are you talking about? I let you know so they were over there dragging your name through the mud. Hence why I said clear up the misunderstanding.
Next time, I'll just let them continue making accusations without you knowing.
Sorry for letting you know you were getting accused of scamming I guess??
You’d have done it in a pm if you weren’t trying to embarrass me. Facts.
You went searching through my history and found that. You were trying to find something and used it and now you look like an asshole.
No, actually I got a text from someone who knew them. And said they had tried to get ahold of you in PM and you haven't answered. They posted the pic of the PM's that had been sent directly to you and you didn't respond.
I knew you were active in this thread so I tagged you as it seemed you weren't getting the PM's or responding to the thread.
The rest you're just being paranoid and making up. I couldn't care less of your opinion on an AMP or not. Definitely not enough to go searching for something to embarrass you.
