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Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths
- Thread starter stevenc23
- Start date
The target is one of the 36-inch plates at Youngs Longshot, range was 1,000 yards, it was shot two days ago. The red arrow is about 7.5 inches. That was an unusually good target for me at 1k; those hits will fit inside an A-zone. After shooting this group, I drove out to the target and took the picture then drove back and, less carefully, put 5 more rounds on this target. The 10 hits could be covered with a dinner plate - still good by my standards with a 308.
I was shooting a 308 off a bipod and a bench inside a building with a space heater. I'm using LC LR brass, 175 SMK, and 4064. COL is 2.820, rounds feed out of a magazine. Air temperature was about 32F, wind 1 to 2 mph from about 9 o'clock. The scope is set for a 100 yard zero. Muzzle velocity is about 2,620 fps. I dialed 12 mils up and 0.5 mils left then held between 0 and 0.2 mils left depending on mirage. I was shooting moderately fast - trying to stay in the condition. I think that my less than perfect hold and the fact that the bullets were subsonic accounted for some of the vertical you can see. That particular rifle has about 1,500 rounds through the barrel.
I anneal after every firing. The brass used here was annealed at least 10 times, probably more. I use a flame annealer. I turn out the lights then adjust flame and time until the brass comes out of the flame with a glow that disappears within about 1 second. Then I turn on the lights and anneal the batch. I don't adjust the flame or time during an annealing session. I don't know the temperature and I have no hardness measurements. I anneal for two reasons - subjective consistent seating pressure and vertical on targets. Since I started to anneal, seating force is more uniform and vertical at 800 yards runs about 2-inches. I can't shoot groups like some of you guys and this is a bit of "blind squirrel finds acorn" but 10 rounds under 12 inches at 1,000 yards with a 308 is acceptable to me.
Heating the brass until it glows does not damage the brass. If it did, this brass would not shoot this consistently after many annealings. After annealing, I cannot pinch the mouth of the case - they are oxidized but not soft. I expand necks before seating. Subjective seating force is mostly good.
I went through a phase where things just weren't working to well. Load was junk, sizing and trimming had become quite a chore and inconsistent. I was annealing but what I came to find is I was under annealing. I trim my brass in a RCBS trim pro with a 3 way head. My brass had gotten so hard I thought my trimmer was dull. It wasn't until I had some split necks that I thought annealing may be the issue. I took that same brass and annealed it this time making sure the necks got that red glow in a darkish room. Everything was better, trimmed like butter the shoulder bump was consistent. It was a lesson learned the hard way. Nothing I do in a reloading room will ever be put on a spred sheet. For me the easiest way to tell if brass is hard is to trim by hand you will notice a difference. That red glow makes all the difference.
"Which annealer are you using"
Bench Source.
I also noticed what Salks noticed - more consistent neck ID after expanding, more consistent trim lengths - 0 to +.001 instead of 0 to +0.005, and more consistent shoulder measurements. My chamber is -0.002 from SAAMI - on purpose. When sizing with un-annealed cases, I get measurements between +0.002 and -0.003 relative to my chamber. With annealed cases, the measurements are 0 to -0.001 relative to my chamber. These are my arguments for annealing - during loading annealed brass behaves more consistently and when shooting it delivers better accuracy.
Bench Source.
I also noticed what Salks noticed - more consistent neck ID after expanding, more consistent trim lengths - 0 to +.001 instead of 0 to +0.005, and more consistent shoulder measurements. My chamber is -0.002 from SAAMI - on purpose. When sizing with un-annealed cases, I get measurements between +0.002 and -0.003 relative to my chamber. With annealed cases, the measurements are 0 to -0.001 relative to my chamber. These are my arguments for annealing - during loading annealed brass behaves more consistently and when shooting it delivers better accuracy.
Anneal the neck for more consistent neck tension. Anneal the shoulder so that your base-to-shoulder (or headspace) dimension is more consistent. I expand the neck after annealing. The tool itself is not as important as consistency. Give every case the same heat in the same place for the same time. Don't heat up the case head. Make sure that the places that work-harden (neck and shoulder) are annealed. If you do that, your brass can't tell which tool you used. The other good things will follow. One thing about shooting, the only thing that matters is the target. Within reason and rules, nobody cares how you did it.
You don't need a bench source cobber. They're a tad over-engineered. Get yourself one of them Elfsters annealing machines with the adjustable cartridge length back plate. Great little units, particularly if you want to anneal different case lengths.
All you gotta do is heat that neck shoulder up till she's glowing a real hard pink for 3 or 4 seconds & you'll be good to go. Otherwise you can do the 750F for 7 sec thing if you like wasting gas & time but, it's up to you what you decide on. That little Elfster annealer will do all you need it to do. The only slight downside is that it doesn't have a case magazine for auto dispensing into the flame but, flame annealing isn't a task best left unattended so it's not a deal breaker IMHO. If you're going to flame anneal, use MAP gas, it's a lot faster.
PS. Not meaning to denigrate the bench source. They work well & are very well made but, there are other much simpler, cheaper designs which accomplish the same thing.
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Thanks everyone for your help girlfriend got me the EP for Christmas and I got it yesterday. Works as advertised and very happy. I had ordered the AGS so I will have it for sale as soon as it comes in.
Shoot us a PM when you get it. We use an amp, but a compact unit like the AGS would be nice to have to experiment with different temps and dwell times.
100%! for $268 shipped lower 48 states, it will anneal anything from 300blk to 50bmg without having to add or remove any parts & can adjust from cartridge to cartridge in 30 seconds or less. trust me, if you anneal anything 200pcs or less (and in my opinion even more & don't care that it doesn't have a hopper = will take the adjustability & ease of use over the hopper any day) = ready to anneal out of the box other than the blue propane tank. more info here and video below: https://www.epintegrations.com
Actually no, you cannot do 750F for 7 seconds. Temperatures of 750F will anneal brass, but only if held for nearly an hour. It is not high enough temperature to flash anneal the brass.
750F for one hour in an oven will anneal the neck of brass to a hardness of 117HV in the middle of the neck wall. Annealing with an AMP is actually more effective than even 750F for a full hour, yielding an average neck hardness of 105HV if annealing is performed after any working/sizing of the brass. Even if you anneal with an AMP prior to sizing with a bushing die (which will work harden the brass somewhat), the post-sizing hardness of the brass in the neck region is only 118-120HV.
The data is clear that heating the brass to 750F for 7 seconds is completely insufficient for flash annealing of cartridge cases, because even heating to 750F for a full hour is less effective at returning brass to the initial neck hardness values (which averaged 100HV) than proper flash annealing which reaches peak temperatures of just over 1000F.
Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP
View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.
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I'm not sure about the hardness figures you mention but, I did state that 750F for 7 sec was a waste of gas.Actually no, you cannot do 750F for 7 seconds. Temperatures of 750F will anneal brass, but only if held for nearly an hour. It is not high enough temperature to flash anneal the brass.
750F for one hour in an oven will anneal the neck of brass to a hardness of 117HV in the middle of the neck wall. Annealing with an AMP is actually more effective than even 750F for a full hour, yielding an average neck hardness of 105HV if annealing is performed after any working/sizing of the brass. Even if you anneal with an AMP prior to sizing with a bushing die (which will work harden the brass somewhat), the post-sizing hardness of the brass in the neck region is only 118-120HV.
The data is clear that heating the brass to 750F for 7 seconds is completely insufficient for flash annealing of cartridge cases, because even heating to 750F for a full hour is less effective at returning brass to the initial neck hardness values (which averaged 100HV) than proper flash annealing which reaches peak temperatures of just over 1000F.
Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP
View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.
Anyhow, I reckon he'll be happy with his EP annealer.
I plan to get an EP myself. Good little units.
Eventually I plan to cobble together a fully automatic induction unit so the temperature & time can be set.
So, where are we on annealing?
Have we all given up on cooking shit out of the brass & over annealing & all that shit?
Haven't been able to do as much testing as I did months back but, I just went over my records & surprisingly I've annealed just over 1700 cases now to 100RC which is +1400 F or +750C for at least 5 seconds & absolutely no issues whatsoever. Some of the cases have been annealed & shot 14 times with no issues.
How about that?
Admittedly, I do get some extended case growth at times but, the neck walls measure 0.012" to 0.010" & seem to be getting more consistent with every anneal.
I've cut cases in half longitudinally & no signs of case head separation, except for some of my Winchester 243 cases which are very old, 25+ years & were grossly oversized years ago. All of the recent 308 Win cases are just like new.
I've loaded both 243 & 308 cases to where the primers were flat as tacks &, gas was leaking & no signs of incipient head separation.
Even with my cheap sizing regimen, I can size to within +0.001" to -0.001" which, seems to improve with every annealing cycle.
Yep, no doubt about it. With AMP taking the brass to at least 1050 to 1100 F, they're definitely on the right track &, with absolutely no ill effects.
If you can afford it, get yourself an AMP otherwise, anneal to 100RC & be done with it.
Have we all given up on cooking shit out of the brass & over annealing & all that shit?
Haven't been able to do as much testing as I did months back but, I just went over my records & surprisingly I've annealed just over 1700 cases now to 100RC which is +1400 F or +750C for at least 5 seconds & absolutely no issues whatsoever. Some of the cases have been annealed & shot 14 times with no issues.
How about that?
Admittedly, I do get some extended case growth at times but, the neck walls measure 0.012" to 0.010" & seem to be getting more consistent with every anneal.
I've cut cases in half longitudinally & no signs of case head separation, except for some of my Winchester 243 cases which are very old, 25+ years & were grossly oversized years ago. All of the recent 308 Win cases are just like new.
I've loaded both 243 & 308 cases to where the primers were flat as tacks &, gas was leaking & no signs of incipient head separation.
Even with my cheap sizing regimen, I can size to within +0.001" to -0.001" which, seems to improve with every annealing cycle.
Yep, no doubt about it. With AMP taking the brass to at least 1050 to 1100 F, they're definitely on the right track &, with absolutely no ill effects.
If you can afford it, get yourself an AMP otherwise, anneal to 100RC & be done with it.
Seems like we need the bungee cord bipod guy @PracticalTactical in here to tell us more of the secrets he uses to collect the participation ribbons he displays so proudly on his wall, because apparently all the world record holders and national champions are doing it wrong.
I've thought for a while now: unless one is annealing their brass after every firing, with something as consistent and repeatable as an AMP, they may actually be introducing more randomness into their reloading process trying to anneal in a way that's not consistent and repeatable.
Another shooter at my club brought it up one day... and I agree.
Another shooter at my club brought it up one day... and I agree.
Consistent & repeatable is the whole idea behind annealing at temperatures which take the brass to 100% recrystallization within a few seconds. This can be done without expensive units using simple flame at higher temps.
When the brass reaches 100% recrystallization, the brass can be said to be of the same hardness & ductility, at least for reloading purposes &, since further softening at those elevated temps takes many hours, the time frames required to achieve very dependable repeatability do not have to be anywhere near as exact as partial recrystallization which, is how AMP anneal.
I don't know about jockeying for position. I'm simply stating that it is very difficult to "over-anneal" as you describe it.I wish people shot more.
Then academic discussions such as this would not be entirely academic. There would be a result-based portion of the discussion.
I'd like to shoot with the loudest voices in this thread at some point. I'd like an opportunity to see the results of their knowledge on target. Being this hostile with one another and jockeying for position in an imaginary hierarchy is not good for anyone.
Results. Results on target should be a more important part of this discussion than it ever is.
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Truth be told, if you're getting good results with the way you think you're annealing, then it's blatantly obvious that annealing doesn't matter simply because you just aren't annealing the brass, it's that simple.
I've listed all the scientific studies which detail the temps & times that are necessary so, your argument really isn't with me. You've basically made a video which was not factual & I called you out.
It wasn't my express intention to embarrass you but, there's little that can be done when someone is called out in public when they're wrong.
I will say though that you could have handled the situation considerably better. You've really only yourself to blame for much of this, especially the proud "know it all" attitude, as well as the appeals to being unduly persecuted.
As can be seen, it's some time since this thread died a death however, after viewing some of your latest vids, I really felt that I should say something to possibly remind you that, despite your belief that you have some kind of monopoly on reloading knowledge, that the world is a very big place my friend, with many millions of folk who reload & test. To be honest, I've wondered about your motivation in all of this since, after being given the information on annealing 70/30 brass, you still haven't taken that ridiculous video down which, is full of nonsense. In the vids on your channel, you can't seem to help taking a "holier than thou" attitude, depicting yourself as some guru of reloading knowledge. It's not so much what you say but, the way you say it. Not only that but, in all your vids, you claim some grand statements without the least appeal to statistical relevance. The viewer is left having to take all of your statements at face value, many of which I know for a fact to be false when analysed statistically. You are not the only one to test things bother, as difficult as this statement seems to be for you to accept.
I wonder if you are willing to admit that the annealing video you still have up is incorrect & that you are at least willing to look into the subject further.
I think this is quite important as you have lead so many reloaders astray with the nonsense in that video.
Lets see where the Christian values lead?
It'll be difficult but, worth it in the end.
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I've been using the drill, torch, socket method for a few-5 years now and it works for me. Seating depths, neck tensions all much more consistent than the 20yrs prior to not annealing. I started after I had a batch of brass that got hard as hell to seat the bullets. Researched about annealing and tried it. Problem went away on that batch of brass after annealing and I was hooked on the idea. To further test to myself, I purposely didn't anneal some batches after that and the necks split on the non-annealed brass. If I were to buy a machine to anneal brass it would be one where I load a batch into a hopper type feeding system so I could do other things in the shop while it went to work.
What I found in my method of flame annealing:
- Time & heat matter, but I only look at the end result. For me, that is when the anneal line/coloration/whatever it is/forms just below the shoulder. (1/8" or so) I can get there fast or get there slow depending on placement in the fame. I do try to stay somewhat consistent in the flame placement. (For science)
- Keeping the case mouth to the sky while annealing makes the anneal line more even.
- I think annealing each firing can be beneficial. I've mistakenly annealed the same batch after annealing, and after tumbling the anneal grit off the cases. I did not see another anneal progress line form on the already annealed cases. I do see that progress/coloration form after a single firing, however.
This shit is not hard, nor does it take a machine to regulate the temp and hardness and crystalline structure anatomization and all that other shit. I imagine humans could write a 5" thick egg head binder on the rotational forces, physics, wood grain, graphite properties of sharpening a pencil. Or you stick the damn thing in the hole, turn the crank until you see a sharp tip and press on with the writing.
What I found in my method of flame annealing:
- Time & heat matter, but I only look at the end result. For me, that is when the anneal line/coloration/whatever it is/forms just below the shoulder. (1/8" or so) I can get there fast or get there slow depending on placement in the fame. I do try to stay somewhat consistent in the flame placement. (For science)
- Keeping the case mouth to the sky while annealing makes the anneal line more even.
- I think annealing each firing can be beneficial. I've mistakenly annealed the same batch after annealing, and after tumbling the anneal grit off the cases. I did not see another anneal progress line form on the already annealed cases. I do see that progress/coloration form after a single firing, however.
This shit is not hard, nor does it take a machine to regulate the temp and hardness and crystalline structure anatomization and all that other shit. I imagine humans could write a 5" thick egg head binder on the rotational forces, physics, wood grain, graphite properties of sharpening a pencil. Or you stick the damn thing in the hole, turn the crank until you see a sharp tip and press on with the writing.
Let me see if I understand correctly.
You dig up a thread that started 7 years ago, and has only been getting necro-posted on for the last 5 years, on a forum I haven't posted on in any meaningful way for over 2 years, (more like 5 years actually) to talk about a video I put up an actual entire DECADE ago?
The first time you necroposted this thread, it was 3 years since any previous activity. Then today, you necro it again, from roughly 1.5 years ago, quoting a post of mine from 3 years ago, while you were the last reply to this thread 1.5 years ago... so you literally replied to yourself.
... and you think you're embarrassing me?
I forgot which is better the metric mil annealers or the Merican MOA ones. I don't want read the whole thing again.
Just wondering when you're going to remove the annealing vid from your channel. Every point you make in that vid is incorrect.Let me see if I understand correctly.
You dig up a thread that started 7 years ago, and has only been getting necro-posted on for the last 5 years, on a forum I haven't posted on in any meaningful way for over 2 years, (more like 5 years actually) to talk about a video I put up an actual entire DECADE ago?
The first time you necroposted this thread, it was 3 years since any previous activity. Then today, you necro it again, from roughly 1.5 years ago, quoting a post of mine from 3 years ago, while you were the last reply to this thread 1.5 years ago... so you literally replied to yourself.
... and you think you're embarrassing me?
Besides that, I just don't like your attitude.
I'll never understand the seemingly unrelenting need of some people to be "correct" on the internet and then project that need.
I'm actually really glad you don't like me. I'm pretty happy that most people don't like me, actually. If I were operating in a way that would make someone like you approve of me, I'd be really upset.
Not only am I not removing that annealing video... I'm adding more. Since you dislike me so much, but obviously you just can not stop watching my stuff... check out this annealing video from last year. It should make you really mad. Just remember, every time you click on one of my videos... I get paid. You and the rest of the haters get used to bless me all the time, and I find it quite amusing. I wonder how that makes you feel?
It must just burn you up that I'm sitting here doing all of this every day, and making a good living doing it. The kind of deep seated psychosis it takes for someone to dredge up something from years, or a decade ago, to try to mount some kind of attack. You could click that little button that says "do not recommend this channel," and you'd never see anything of mine again. Not from 10 years ago, not from 10 minutes ago. However, I'm sure you're the kind of guy that if you have no problems in life, you'd get right busy making some for yourself. So go on being mad. Flail away.
You see, because I'm not a psychopath, when some youtube personality does or says things I find objectionable, I never watch anything they put out ever again. I'll at least wait a long time before checking them out again. I certainly won't click on their videos. That's because I actually stand on my beliefs. Where as you types, you watch everything I put out, and you take whatever you can take... and then you badmouth me every chance you get. If you had any integrity at all, you'd never have a complaint about me because you'd never see a single thing I'm doing. Instead I'm rent free in your head, and everything you do to try and hurt me, helps me.
I don't care if you like what I say. I don't care if you like the way I say it. I don't think about you, at all.
Pay the man, click; pay the man; click again, and again, and again...
I have the video on loop...
I have the video on loop...
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I'm actually really glad you don't like me. I'm pretty happy that most people don't like me, actually. If I were operating in a way that would make someone like you approve of me, I'd be really upset.
Not only am I not removing that annealing video... I'm adding more. Since you dislike me so much, but obviously you just can not stop watching my stuff... check out this annealing video from last year. It should make you really mad. Just remember, every time you click on one of my videos... I get paid. You and the rest of the haters get used to bless me all the time, and I find it quite amusing. I wonder how that makes you feel?
It must just burn you up that I'm sitting here doing all of this every day, and making a good living doing it. The kind of deep seated psychosis it takes for someone to dredge up something from years, or a decade ago, to try to mount some kind of attack. You could click that little button that says "do not recommend this channel," and you'd never see anything of mine again. Not from 10 years ago, not from 10 minutes ago. However, I'm sure you're the kind of guy that if you have no problems in life, you'd get right busy making some for yourself. So go on being mad. Flail away.
You see, because I'm not a psychopath, when some youtube personality does or says things I find objectionable, I never watch anything they put out ever again. I'll at least wait a long time before checking them out again. I certainly won't click on their videos. That's because I actually stand on my beliefs. Where as you types, you watch everything I put out, and you take whatever you can take... and then you badmouth me every chance you get. If you had any integrity at all, you'd never have a complaint about me because you'd never see a single thing I'm doing. Instead I'm rent free in your head, and everything you do to try and hurt me, helps me.
I don't care if you like what I say. I don't care if you like the way I say it. I don't think about you, at all.
You sure spent a lot of words and energy telling this guy that you don't care and that you don't think about him at all.
Which means, obviously, that you do. If you truly didn't care you would've have ignored him and not responded to him.
There is more hypocrisy here, but I don't care all that much so I'll leave it at that.
God is trying to teach me to patient, humble and kind, but I'm a slow learner.
I type really fast.
I'd say that was about 2 minutes worth. (i'm just sitting here waiting for some wipe-out patch-out to get done eating some copper anyway) Oh, and another thing... you think because I chose to respond, you correlate that with me caring what THAT person thinks.Your thinking is flawed.
Lots of eyes here, and I don't care about most of them. Those few though, those precious few... they are worth a mountain of haters.
One. One reasonable person willing to have a genuine interaction. That's worth millions of douche bags posturing and trying to win the internet-cool-guy contest.
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Ego and pride my Brother.I type really fast.
Your thinking is flawed.
Lots of eyes here, and I don't care about most of them. Those few though, those precious few... they are worth a mountain of haters.
One. One reasonable person willing to have a genuine interaction. That's worth millions of douche bags posturing and trying to win the internet-cool-guy contest.
I wish you well.
It wasn't ego and pride that led you to make the post in the first place? That kind?
You weren't in this, at all. I was personally called into it. Were you? Nope, you weren't in it at all... yet you can't stand it can you? You cool kids have to be seen being cool. How else would anyone know just how cool you are?!?!
You "don't care," and "you'll leave it at that"... yet there you are replying again like a bot.
Let it burn you right up.
No burning here. Actually, I'm sort of a fan of the information you try to share.
You sure are sensitive, aintcha?
Like I said ego and pride. . . it's what made you respond in the first place, to someone who you say you don't care what he thinks or says about you.
Ego and pride , you just had to respond. Ego and pride now has you calling me out as a "cool kid" because you perceive some level of criticism aimed at you? Ego and pride. It can make you and it can break you, but I know, you don't care.
We all need to be better.
Of course you're a fan. lolNo burning here. Actually, I'm sort of a fan of the information you try to share.
You sure are sensitive, aintcha?
Like I said ego and pride. . . it's what made you respond in the first place, to someone who you say you don't care what he thinks or says about you.
Ego and pride , you just had to respond. Ego and pride now has you calling me out as a "cool kid" because you perceive some level of criticism aimed at you? Ego and pride. It can make you and it can break you, but I know, you don't care.
We all need to be better.
Got my best interests at heart no doubt.
I'll repeat myself just because.Of course you're a fan. lol
Got my best interests at heart no doubt.
I wish you well, and I do have your best interests at heart. Why would it be otherwise?
Good God Orkin do you just come here to fight with everybody? I thought that’s why you went away for the last couple of years after you posted that pathetic video of you holding the flowers looking over a grave, claiming that the forums were dead.
Many of us really liked it that you had given up on the dead forums and that we got a break from you for a couple of years
Many of us really liked it that you had given up on the dead forums and that we got a break from you for a couple of years
Oh & here's the mindless guardian. I wonder if you even know what's being referred to?
I imagine not.
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I'm actually really glad you don't like me. I'm pretty happy that most people don't like me, actually. If I were operating in a way that would make someone like you approve of me, I'd be really upset.
Not only am I not removing that annealing video... I'm adding more. Since you dislike me so much, but obviously you just can not stop watching my stuff... check out this annealing video from last year. It should make you really mad. Just remember, every time you click on one of my videos... I get paid. You and the rest of the haters get used to bless me all the time, and I find it quite amusing. I wonder how that makes you feel?
It must just burn you up that I'm sitting here doing all of this every day, and making a good living doing it. The kind of deep seated psychosis it takes for someone to dredge up something from years, or a decade ago, to try to mount some kind of attack. You could click that little button that says "do not recommend this channel," and you'd never see anything of mine again. Not from 10 years ago, not from 10 minutes ago. However, I'm sure you're the kind of guy that if you have no problems in life, you'd get right busy making some for yourself. So go on being mad. Flail away.
You see, because I'm not a psychopath, when some youtube personality does or says things I find objectionable, I never watch anything they put out ever again. I'll at least wait a long time before checking them out again. I certainly won't click on their videos. That's because I actually stand on my beliefs. Where as you types, you watch everything I put out, and you take whatever you can take... and then you badmouth me every chance you get. If you had any integrity at all, you'd never have a complaint about me because you'd never see a single thing I'm doing. Instead I'm rent free in your head, and everything you do to try and hurt me, helps me.
I don't care if you like what I say. I don't care if you like the way I say it. I don't think about you, at all.
This is the behaviour I'm referring to.
If you were to simply admit that you weren't privy to all the information at the time of the video & that, you can understand that with new information, you are willing to update the vid, I for one would be satisfied with that kind of understanding. You however are content to completely skirt the main issue & bring in all manner of completely irrelevant B.S which doesn't even cover as an excuse.
I have no option other than to question your motives, all your motives.
I handed you a way to make a complete fool of me however, you continue to defend yourself in the most unnecessary way by attempting to derail the central theme.
All you have to do is either remove or update the annealing video or, be cast as the fake you seem to have chosen to be.
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I’m telling you to shut up so you stop making such a fool of yourself.
This thread is full of fools and I worry that I may be among them without knowing it
As usual, you have nothing of substance to add but a Hollywood movie clip.
Says something about your grasp on reality.
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