Gunsmithing Any thoughts on structured barrels?

[brianf]

No

I must be missing it somehow

If

I understand not saying it is not right .If they were testing my gun and they did it that way , I would still be worried . I could be wrong no doubt but would feel better if the same test was ran shoulder fired on bags and then compare results between the two as a confirmation. The reason is over the years the overall dynamic is soooo sensitive to change it is scary so I would like to confirm my testing with the same support just to make sure I am not sunk just because the gun reacted differently. For example I would have never thought a wood bench would change the gun but it did and stopped putting slower rounds high and this was a really sturdy bench but wood. Walked over to a concrete bench to shoot off of and life was good again .

so the answer is not “no”?

A tuned rifle can go out of tune if the shooter changes benches etc

Or for definition…tune or not it will not be as precise when comparing poa to poi…as you said it stopped putting slower bullets in the same spot previously observed

 

[JB.IC]

I threw this together real quick. Don't judge me too harshly on the version 1 design.

 

[timintx]

I must be missing it somehow

If

so the answer is not “no”?

A tuned rifle can go out of tune if the shooter changes benches etc

Or for definition…tune or not it will not be as precise when comparing poa to poi…as you said it stopped putting slower bullets in the same spot previously observed

I knew that would confuse you lol. let me reiterate, a wooden table will allow the gun to not have a consistent vertical support creating dispersion just like shooting rubber feet both creating inconsistent graphs. Every gun is like that I just happen to be able to measure it to a very small degree. it is much less apparent when shooting groups with one load, Tune does not change but it is not exempt from variables, no rifle is.

 

[brianf]

I knew that would confuse you lol. let me reiterate, a wooden table will allow the gun to not have a consistent vertical support creating dispersion just like shooting rubber feet both creating inconsistent graphs. Every gun is like that I just happen to be able to measure it to a very small degree. it is much less apparent when shooting groups with one load, Tune does not change but it is not exempt from variables, no rifle is.

Again …

Changing position , rest/bench are variables that blur the effectiveness of “tune”

So, a “tuned rifle” will only perform at it max potential shot in or around the exact temperature, location, position which makes sense.

But that also shows that the effectiveness of a “tune” is easily within the wash unless used in a very specific set of circumstances/ variables

Theoretically while a “tune” may or not actually work it’s effectiveness is small enough to be unnoticeable.

if you “tune” on a cement bench then move to a wood bench with bipod it’s not effective or if it is still effective the shooter is unable to tell.

No wonder why the military hasn’t signed a contract yet.

“Yes general thats correct…my product can only be shot prone using a bunny ear bag in combat. But when you do I can get you a .1 mil smaller group”

 

[John Baker]

I threw this together real quick. Don't judge me too harshly on the version 1 design.

I am on board.
I will search for the 480rds of Factory ammo or have a reputable loader produce 480rds of non-fired brass.
We will continue posting non-statistical groups for objective data.

 

[brianf]

I am on board.
I will search for the 480rds of Factory ammo or have a reputable loader produce 480rds of non-fired brass.
We will continue posting non-statistical groups for objective data.

Actually constructive focus moving forward.

So much better than 99% of threads

 

[JB.IC]

I am on board.
I will search for the 480rds of Factory ammo or have a reputable loader produce 480rds of non-fired brass.
We will continue posting non-statistical groups for objective data.

The one thing I didn’t specify in there was the response. I know it’s group size but it could be the center to center extreme stress or mean radius. The problem with mean radius is that if all the groups are tight, then we won’t know exactly where overlapping shots occurred. I’m sure a real-time camera or target marker can be used but I have no experience with those so I didn’t mention it.

 

[JB.IC]

I am on board.
I will search for the 480rds of Factory ammo or have a reputable loader produce 480rds of non-fired brass.
We will continue posting non-statistical groups for objective data.

Also, if you could capture the barrel temperature in a non-contact way (so there isn’t any blame about group size due to a contact measuring device), you can plot the barrel temperatures across time or shot sequence. Which is good information.

 

[John Baker]

This data does exist, using both eddy current sensors and laser vibrometers. It shows small amounts of movement, and variation in that movement does affect dispersion. I suspect a clever arrangement of sufficiently sensitive strain gages could also work, but would leave out the rigid body motion that occurs.


That's not the premise being proposed, but even if it was, the powder column is still acting on the barrel. The removal of the projectile does not imply the removal of all forces. Beyond that, the fact that the barrel movement is larger after bullet exit than before is easily observable. As you yourself have pointed out, current high speed cameras are not capable of resolving the lateral movement during barrel time, yet there are many videos showing movement after bullet exit. The obvious conclusion is that the barrel is now moving enough to be within the resolution of the camera.


I think you're strawmanning here (no one thinks that the barrel has no effect), but some of those questions are interesting regardless.
1) Troll question - barrels obviously change with shot count
2) Depends on the type of degradation. If you agree with Litz that the first sign of a barrel going out is BC variability then you will see vertical spread increase first. Opening of the entire cone of dispersion will come later.
3) Probably not, small changes in powder charge are unlikely to cause a large change in obturation.
4) Depends on the line, but yes. Any change in projectile mass balance will have negative effects. Scribed lines with radial symmetry won't have this effect.
5) See 4)
6) Yes, provided nothing in the gun has changed either.
7) More mass more better (unless you have to carry it for long distances, also notice I didn't say stiffness)
8) If you aren't just being snarky, there's a pretty clear explanation as to why the group is opening in all directions. Two of the largest contributors to dispersion are lateral throwoff and aero jump. Both are influenced by asymmetric engraving and in-bore yaw. As a bore expands, the amount of yaw possible increases, but the direction in which it occurs is random. This results in a increase in the entire cone.
9) Not worded clearly enough to answer. Same strawman about barrel not having any influence.
10) See 8)


It should be measurable and predictable, but it's not. A person could make a killing in the custom barrel market if you could tell a good from a bad barrel simply by inspection. This excludes things like comparing a barrel at SAAMI max bore and groove vs one at min, the outcome there is at least somewhat predictable.


Yes, but that's nothing to do with harmonics.

I have no arguments with anything you have noted.
Strawmanning- new term for me.... At some point I ask dumber questions as I view the accusations become more extreme. "Harmonics have nothing to do with platform accuracy and overall performance" being the overall main jist.
Telling every one of our clients they are dumb morons ... I would never do that do another company or person. Not who I am. I am glad that shooters like Chris Schmidt, Mark, Ben C, Shawn W., Lee W. are all dumbasses. So yes a bit heated.

With that - constructively- I do not agree with the premises that a heat treat has no effect on harmonics. We tuned 100's of horns. Heat treatment was used to create the required tune, make it less muddy, and separate 1st, 2nd, 3rd order vibrations. Without heat treatment- they would not work.
I don't see why this process will fail with a barrel.
I view it as a tool. An out of tune horn becomes incredibly hot quite rapidly and will proceed to destroy itself . (Along with my observations, Dukane, Branson, Crest.... various simulation models will all agree) Plus, our requirements were hugely greater that a typical welding tool. Welding tools operate for 10's to 100's of milliseconds. We had to operate at 10-40minutes continuously. Heat treat was hugely critical.

 

[John Baker]

Also, if you could capture the barrel temperature in a non-contact way (so there isn’t any blame about group size due to a contact measuring device), you can plot the barrel temperatures across time or shot sequence. Which is good information.

That we can do. We will have to post data showing barrel temps on a large caliber- extremely large group size. Some more objective measurements... or when does a measurement become actual data?
Anybody want to guess barrel temps on a standard 300Norma barrel at 30rds?

 

[Smokin7s]

That we can do. We will have to post data showing barrel temps on a large caliber- extremely large group size. Some more objective measurements... or when does a measurement become actual data?
Anybody want to guess barrel temps on a standard 300Norma barrel at 30rds?

I don’t want to guess but I want to know I’m guessing 225

 

[John Baker]

The one thing I didn’t specify in there was the response. I know it’s group size but it could be the center to center extreme stress or mean radius. The problem with mean radius is that if all the groups are tight, then we won’t know exactly where overlapping shots occurred. I’m sure a real-time camera or target marker can be used but I have no experience with those so I didn’t mention it.

My first thought would be to limit groups to 5 rounds each. Within 5 rounds clover leaf groups will hopefully be acceptable for some non-measurable precise data. Most will have distinct edges to work with.
Open to better ideas.
Oehler88 or 89... just don't have two of them in my back pocket.

 

[John Baker]

I don’t want to guess but I want to know I’m guessing 225

We will see. Unfortunately my guess to date is really burnt fingers and palms. The 6xc after 43 rounds was at 84deg on a 45 deg day over a 20min shot period. The Norma on both 30 round groups could be picked up by the barrel with 30sec shot cycles. Chris could pick his barrel up on his .416 after 15 shots... All objective sorry. LOL However- there will be a difference along with cool down period.
Yes we have the data for cool down periods barrel to to Structured barrel- while testing the Cerakotes.

 

[John Baker]

I threw this together real quick. Don't judge me too harshly on the version 1 design.

JB.IC. -- please send me an invoice. Your work is not free. Your expertise is not free. Your time is not free.

 

[JB.IC]

That we can do. We will have to post data showing barrel temps on a large caliber- extremely large group size. Some more objective measurements... or when does a measurement become actual data?
Anybody want to guess barrel temps on a standard 300Norma barrel at 30rds?

Technically it's data the moment you record the measurement.

My first thought would be to limit groups to 5 rounds each. Within 5 rounds clover leaf groups will hopefully be acceptable for some non-measurable precise data. Most will have distinct edges to work with.
Open to better ideas.
Oehler88 or 89... just don't have two of them in my back pocket.

I think you would get a lot of push back on limiting the groups to five rounds each. That is the trend right now anyways to criticize small group samples. Plus, I am sure you would like to show case the precision at higher volume. It is a pain in the ass to do this the right way.

JB.IC. -- please send me an invoice. Your work is not free. Your expertise is not free. Your time is not free.

I will decline any payments because I might ask a favor of you to read over some material I plan on publishing in the future. I'll reach out to you offline when the time comes.


I am just realizing how much easier it is to communicate on this site while being on my desktop. It was such a pain to read everything on my phone.

 

[pyrotechnic]

Could you just shoot your high rounds counts as singles at individual points of aim, then use software to aggregate all the shots. This would give you the ability to pull mean radii and observe trends as round count increases.

Not sure if the individual aiming points would compromise another portion of the test.

 

[IntoTransonic]

We will see. Unfortunately my guess to date is really burnt fingers and palms. The 6xc after 43 rounds was at 84deg on a 45 deg day over a 20min shot period. The Norma on both 30 round groups could be picked up by the barrel with 30sec shot cycles. Chris could pick his barrel up on his .416 after 15 shots... All objective sorry. LOL However- there will be a difference along with cool down period.
Yes we have the data for cool down periods barrel to to Structured barrel- while testing the Cerakotes.

John … I don’t have your intellect …. Nor, the remainder of all those who have replied over the last 5 pages. I’ve read everyone of them. Two and three syllable words have come out of the woodworks. It seems a majority are more interested in damaging the man’s character and integrity. John Baker is a much nicer man than I…. John can attest to the point.

The fact remains intact today …. My 416 structured barrel has been extremely successful for a variety of reasons. Is it tune, skill, barrel, bullet, machinist that performed the work, experience, hard work or pure ass luck. That is for all of the experts to debate. But, the fact remains the barrel is stable enough to produce very very little vertical at distance (extreme distance). Besides the cooling … reduced mirage off the barrel … very unique recoil impulse that I struggle to articulate well enough. The barrel is very forgiving …. Easy to tune.

I differ with some here … a few combine tune and harmonics into one bundle. I differ … you will not change my mind; consistent pressure is what makes a consistent tune …. Harmonics affect poi with regard to poa. Is it cause or correlation; the fact is the barrel (40” finished) is like driving a freaking “I” beam, truck axle or whatever adjective you choose.

I, always, enjoy seeing people drive the beast and watching their reaction after the first shot. It’s a unique firing impulse.

I read about tunes …. Defining where a tune will work and if conditions change will the tune work. The fact is … my 416 was tuned at 1326’ altitude, remained in tune down to 2’ of elevation fired over salt water, and remained in tune up to 7000’ altitude. Not a single change in any load specific. I tune and hand load ALL of my own.
Offset doesn’t change a single minute measurement. 8-3/8” high at my home … 8-3/8” high at 6658’ in Raton, NM. Velocity changes with the ammo temperature.

All of this academia debate .. text book discussion, arguing and mud slinging means absolutely nothing. When your boots hit the ground and your ass is in the dirt …. The debate often turns a 180 degree the other way.

Full disclosure…. John has been a huge supporter of me, my efforts and the ELR goals that I have. I’m appreciative, BUT if I felt another barrel offered me a greater advantage …. I would go get one. Until that occurs, I have two structured barrels ready to go for 2024. I leave NO stone or detail left unattended with regard to my 416 and the components included in the system.

I’m unapologetic, steadfast and confident the technology offers me a fair advantage. I’ve spent too many years chasing the sport to use an inferior product.

Come spend a couple days with me in Tennessee… I will be more than happy to let you drive it. I will be at Shot Show in a couple weeks … send a message and we can meet and discuss. Have a good evening gentleman!

Cheers ..
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
RLTW

 

[JB.IC]

I seen some errors in the pdf I made earlier. I am sure there's more that I didn't catch. Added some other info as well. Here's v1.1

 

[John Baker]

Technically it's data the moment you record the measurement.


I think you would get a lot of push back on limiting the groups to five rounds each. That is the trend right now anyways to criticize small group samples. Plus, I am sure you would like to show case the precision at higher volume. It is a pain in the ass to do this the right way.


I will decline any payments because I might ask a favor of you to read over some material I plan on publishing in the future. I'll reach out to you offline when the time comes.


I am just realizing how much easier it is to communicate on this site while being on my desktop. It was such a pain to read everything on my phone.

So I understand: I am proposing 30 rounds (example) total per event. With 5 rounds in a subgroup allowing a more precise group size measurement. However, no issues shooting single 30rd groups.
Concerning the data-- a funny moment only... facetious. Not sure if I posted things like temp readings this group would accept them.

 

[John Baker]

John … I don’t have your intellect …. Nor, the remainder of all those who have replied over the last 5 pages. I’ve read everyone of them. Two and three syllable words have come out of the woodworks. It seems a majority are more interested in damaging the man’s character and integrity. John Baker is a much nicer man than I…. John can attest to the point.

The fact remains intact today …. My 416 structured barrel has been extremely successful for a variety of reasons. Is it tune, skill, barrel, bullet, machinist that performed the work, experience, hard work or pure ass luck. That is for all of the experts to debate. But, the fact remains the barrel is stable enough to produce very very little vertical at distance (extreme distance). Besides the cooling … reduced mirage off the barrel … very unique recoil impulse that I struggle to articulate well enough. The barrel is very forgiving …. Easy to tune.

I differ with some here … a few combine tune and harmonics into one bundle. I differ … you will not change my mind; consistent pressure is what makes a consistent tune …. Harmonics affect poi with regard to poa. Is it cause or correlation; the fact is the barrel (40” finished) is like driving a freaking “I” beam, truck axle or whatever adjective you choose.

I, always, enjoy seeing people drive the beast and watching their reaction after the first shot. It’s a unique firing impulse.

I read about tunes …. Defining where a tune will work and if conditions change will the tune work. The fact is … my 416 was tuned at 1326’ altitude, remained in tune down to 2’ of elevation fired over salt water, and remained in tune up to 7000’ altitude. Not a single change in any load specific. I tune and hand load ALL of my own.
Offset doesn’t change a single minute measurement. 8-3/8” high at my home … 8-3/8” high at 6658’ in Raton, NM. Velocity changes with the ammo temperature.

All of this academia debate .. text book discussion, arguing and mud slinging means absolutely nothing. When your boots hit the ground and your ass is in the dirt …. The debate often turns a 180 degree the other way.

Full disclosure…. John has been a huge supporter of me, my efforts and the ELR goals that I have. I’m appreciative, BUT if I felt another barrel offered me a greater advantage …. I would go get one. Until that occurs, I have two structured barrels ready to go for 2024. I leave NO stone or detail left unattended with regard to my 416 and the components included in the system.

I’m unapologetic, steadfast and confident the technology offers me a fair advantage. I’ve spent too many years chasing the sport to use an inferior product.

Come spend a couple days with me in Tennessee… I will be more than happy to let you drive it. I will be at Shot Show in a couple weeks … send a message and we can meet and discuss. Have a good evening gentleman!

Cheers ..
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
RLTW

Thank you Chris... nor should it be lost on anyone, quality matters, materials, processing, gunsmith, ammo etc... and the big variable: the trigger puller. Our goal is to smooth some of those hiccups that can occur such as vertical ... flatter sd per our excellent 3rd party customers- along with other minor improvements. The chase is on. Great Drivers who are detail and data driven- Chris- adds confidence to our potential claims.

 

[JB.IC]

So I understand: I am proposing 30 rounds (example) total per event. With 5 rounds in a subgroup allowing a more precise group size measurement. However, no issues shooting single 30rd groups.
Concerning the data-- a funny moment only... facetious. Not sure if I posted things like temp readings this group would accept them.

For the groups: after shooting the 5 rounds per all subgroups, if there was a way to transpose each subgroup on top of each other, then a final mean radius can be calculated. There might need to be a transition window to allow the shooter to get onto a new POA. I haven’t spent much time shooting groups in the last few years because it’s one of my least favorite things to do. So, someone probably has a better method.

 

[timintx]

Again …

Changing position , rest/bench are variables that blur the effectiveness of “tune”

So, a “tuned rifle” will only perform at it max potential shot in or around the exact temperature, location, position which makes sense.

But that also shows that the effectiveness of a “tune” is easily within the wash unless used in a very specific set of circumstances/ variables

Theoretically while a “tune” may or not actually work it’s effectiveness is small enough to be unnoticeable.

if you “tune” on a cement bench then move to a wood bench with bipod it’s not effective or if it is still effective the shooter is unable to tell.

No wonder why the military hasn’t signed a contract yet.

“Yes general thats correct…my product can only be shot prone using a bunny ear bag in combat. But when you do I can get you a .1 mil smaller group”

This is real simple here , the gun is not out of tune . Solidity is paramount for any gun to be accurate ,even yours. You have done nothing to help instead you just troll by distorting my explanations. These are merely just variables that can effect any gun . Please don’t try to sabotage this thread as you have so many in the past .

 

[Tokay444]

I understand not saying it is not right .If they were testing my gun and they did it that way , I would still be worried . I could be wrong no doubt but would feel better if the same test was ran shoulder fired on bags and then compare results between the two as a confirmation. The reason is over the years the overall dynamic is soooo sensitive to change it is scary so I would like to confirm my testing with the same support just to make sure I am not sunk just because the gun reacted differently. For example I would have never thought a wood bench would change the gun but it did and stopped putting slower rounds high and this was a really sturdy bench but wood. Walked over to a concrete bench to shoot off of and life was good again .

Just use your tuner to tune your barrel to the fixture. Tuners work.

 

[Tokay444]

That we can do. We will have to post data showing barrel temps on a large caliber- extremely large group size. Some more objective measurements... or when does a measurement become actual data?
Anybody want to guess barrel temps on a standard 300Norma barrel at 30rds?

I bet it’s over 110° in the chamber, the temp Timmy told Eric barrel steel softens.

 

[Tokay444]

This is real simple here , the gun is not out of tune . Solidity is paramount for any gun to be accurate ,even yours. You have done nothing to help instead you just troll by distorting my explanations. These are merely just variables that can effect any gun . Please don’t try to sabotage this thread as you have so many in the past .

If “solidity is paramount” why on earth would you to shoot shouldered on bags?

 

[clefairy]

Afraid not as I don't have a Chrono. That's why we would love to see someone with all the quantitative data analysis tools do some testing.

I can say that the group sizes right out of the gate were amazing and only got better as I fireformed brass and worked up loads. Even at some very impressive ranges it just hammers.

I think a good way to do testing would be to have an MRAD barrel done and be able to swap back and forth between factory and Structured in similar conditions. It was my plan to do a .300 NM MRAD barrel, but this year some other projects side-tracked me. And last year (2022) the build kits were a PITA to get.

I think the guys with the best data will be the ELR folks or someone like Vestals, which I know has built a lot of them. Or visit TACOM. He has a few of his own rifles. Shoot a couple! I found them really accomodating and open! Just don't go during mud season ;-)

Cheers!

Sirhr

You don't have a chronograph? Do you shoot comps? Do you reload or do you just shoot a short distance and put the estimated fps in your ballistic app?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You don't have a chronograph? Do you shoot comps? Do you reload or do you just shoot a short distance and put the estimated fps in your ballistic app?

I don’t shoot comps (PRS Benchrest, etc) and when I did, it was just for “professional development.” Closest’comps I shoot now are 200’yd egg shoots to support out local gun club and they are not much of a challenge. But fun.

I do reload just about everything. The only factory rounds I ever buy are shotgun shells and .22lr. And I do it all the old fashioned way with notebooks and groups and DOPE and a databook. That said, I only shoot short distances aka out to 1000 or so.

I’d like to get into ELR but no places Up here to do it safely. If I get into ELR, a chrono will be a requirement. But so far, for the last 41 years since Instarted reloading, I start with published data and work up and down until I get the load I want. I know… very boomer of me.

I don’t have a borescope, either! Figure I am happier that way. But every barrel has a round count in a notebook!

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[brianf]

This is real simple here , the gun is not out of tune . Solidity is paramount for any gun to be accurate ,even yours. You have done nothing to help instead you just troll by distorting my explanations. These are merely just variables that can effect any gun . Please don’t try to sabotage this thread as you have so many in the past .

I’m actually trying to differentiate the 2 methods of tune. With a few jokes popped in because everyone is too serious nowadays.

You suggest that a non adjustable tuner is the best way when using a tuner

structured barrels are a “tune” of sorts with out having to attach/ manipulate the barrel

if they both produce the same desired effects on target because that’s all that counts, which am I buying?

Structured barrel I call up and they sell me a prefit for my AI/ impact etc with a lead time

With a non adjustable tuner I buy a barrel then?

Do I have to find smith/ service?
From who and how much?

Do I Buy a non adjustable tuner from someone ?
From who and how much?

since im buying 2-3 barrels (and more if the product does what it says it does ) in the near future im trying to figure out my lead time and total cost

If a tuner has all of these special criteria that may or may not reduce the effectiveness why would I go the tuner route when I can just buy a barrel and shoot next weekend etc. or vice versus

As I’m typing..it brings up the real question …because I have a few builds going on right now

Tim, do you sell your services or who can I buy a “pre tuned” barrel from? You?

Do I have to buy a blank and send it to you first?

do I have to send the whole rifle to you?

It’s a product that you are shooting currently so I’m guessing your business plan has some kind of limited sales currently?

Or your non adjustable tuners are one offs and your still in the infancy of the product plan.?

If there is no way to buy a tuned barrel just yet then I’ll buy a 20” structured barrel this afternoon for an AXSA in 308 or 6.5creed (prob 308 so I get more barrel life) and see the lead times.

If I can send you a Krieger and you work your magic I’ll prob buy one of those as well, but I have no idea how to get one or what the cost is

 

[Tx_Aggie]

For the groups: after shooting the 5 rounds per all subgroups, if there was a way to transpose each subgroup on top of each other, then a final mean radius can be calculated. There might need to be a transition window to allow the shooter to get onto a new POA. I haven’t spent much time shooting groups in the last few years because it’s one of my least favorite things to do. So, someone probably has a better method.

You might consider using a Shotmarker target system. I think that would allow you to shoot a single large group, and later break that into sub groups if you saw a reason to do so. Especially since one assertion being tested seems to be that you don't start to see the benefit of structuring until higher round counts.

Here's an example of a simple 20 shot seating depth test done using a Shotmarker target.

 

[JB.IC]

You might consider using a Shotmarker target system. I think that would allow you to shoot a single large group, and later break that into sub groups if you saw a reason to do so. Especially since one assertion being tested seems to be that you don't start to see the benefit of structuring until higher round counts.

Here's an example of a simple 20 shot seating depth test done using a Shotmarker target.

I made a mistake earlier as I thought this product was called “target marker” but it would be a better method than transposing.

 

[John Baker]

For the groups: after shooting the 5 rounds per all subgroups, if there was a way to transpose each subgroup on top of each other, then a final mean radius can be calculated. There might need to be a transition window to allow the shooter to get onto a new POA. I haven’t spent much time shooting groups in the last few years because it’s one of my least favorite things to do. So, someone probably has a better method.

All valid points and no matter what the transition a variable is added. As noted I was shooting for a 30rd group the other day and in order to keep rifle transition down I dialed 1mil... or so I thought. The group went from 3/8 to 2" to 3" then 4". Agreed that is a truly random failure. However transitions are all about the shooter. (generally speaking guys).
I would also like to propose a process on the ammo- check and correct all ammo for concentricity. Gun test versus ammo test.
Perhaps someone will disagree with me but I have found concentricity to be pretty important.

 

[John Baker]

View attachment 8314045View attachment 8314046
Day 2- same 300Norma Tubb Gun. Rounds 21-30. 208gr at 3164fps. 1800+ rounds on the barrel.

• Vudoo .22

“The first 10-rounds with the SK were one hole. One thing became very obvious to me is the ES/SD impact shows immediately, but that was it. The rifle wants put everything in the same hole. It’s like watching a video game through the scope. No recoil, no movement, nothing just deadness.

Groups at 100-yds | POA 2/10ths high:
+ 1st row CX .001RO | Avg .1675″
+2nd row Midas+ no RO | Avg .268″
+3rd row XACT no RO | Avg .276″
+4th row Tenex no RO | Avg .272″
*RO – Run out

Corollary data:
CX 0.001RO | Avg 1065 SD 6.7
M+ | Avg 1068 SD 11.4
XACT | Avg 1049 SD 8.9
Tenex | Avg 1107 SD 8.1
Δ58 FPS

Honestly, the rifle outperformed every ammo I fed it. It needs to go to Lapua and Eley for testing in their tunnels to find an ammo lot that will deliver the best SD’s. It was amazing shooting across the radar that I could tell based on where the impact went whether the velocity was high or low. I did have some ammo I was testing an Olympic runout gauge on, and the ammo performed best. And it was .001RO. I still need to shoot the .000’s I have, those will tighten up the group even more. Or at least the data of 20 years of research shows that for every .001″ of run out equates to 1/10th group size.

The barrel is outstanding, and shows quickly the weak point is in the ammunition. Even though it’s Olympic ammo.” – Chris Baxter

5-Round Groups from Four Different Manufacturers

Also, if you could capture the barrel temperature in a non-contact way (so there isn’t any blame about group size due to a contact measuring device), you can plot the barrel temperatures across time or shot sequence. Which is good information.

An initial look at cool down data- will try to get more from the Cerakote test.

 

[JB.IC]

All valid points and no matter what the transition a variable is added. As noted I was shooting for a 30rd group the other day and in order to keep rifle transition down I dialed 1mil... or so I thought. The group went from 3/8 to 2" to 3" then 4". Agreed that is a truly random failure. However transitions are all about the shooter. (generally speaking guys).
I would also like to propose a process on the ammo- check and correct all ammo for concentricity. Gun test versus ammo test.
Perhaps someone will disagree with me but I have found concentricity to be pretty important.

I have seen others test concentricity and claim it does not matter. I’ll put it out there that I am not a fan of group testing because any time someone is trying to shoot a tiny group, just breathing incorrectly can wreck havoc. It has been proposed that the bullets that are not concentric will aligns itself. Does it matter? You know from your physics background that you want to isolate a system down to its simplest complexity. We have no idea under what complexity concentricity matters and doesn’t matter.

Let’s say an unstructured barrel could never discern bullet concentricity’s impact because of its physic properties. Maybe a structured barrel can? Of course, this is hypothetical but it’s yet another test that could be favorable for structured barrels under the assumption that its process is more stable. What I mean by “stable” process is that the barrel’s precision could be held to tighter tolerances.

Imagine this experiment having favorable results and then the comment section turning into “well the ammunition wasn’t perfect for the unstructured barrel.” I suspect most of those people have never shot a large sample size because groups only grow as replications increase. World record groups notwithstanding. Which is why mean radius is a more favorable response variable.

This is a tricky scenario when it comes to pleasing the mod. It’s just a tricky problem.

 

[John Baker]

John … I don’t have your intellect …. Nor, the remainder of all those who have replied over the last 5 pages. I’ve read everyone of them. Two and three syllable words have come out of the woodworks. It seems a majority are more interested in damaging the man’s character and integrity. John Baker is a much nicer man than I…. John can attest to the point.

The fact remains intact today …. My 416 structured barrel has been extremely successful for a variety of reasons. Is it tune, skill, barrel, bullet, machinist that performed the work, experience, hard work or pure ass luck. That is for all of the experts to debate. But, the fact remains the barrel is stable enough to produce very very little vertical at distance (extreme distance). Besides the cooling … reduced mirage off the barrel … very unique recoil impulse that I struggle to articulate well enough. The barrel is very forgiving …. Easy to tune.

I differ with some here … a few combine tune and harmonics into one bundle. I differ … you will not change my mind; consistent pressure is what makes a consistent tune …. Harmonics affect poi with regard to poa. Is it cause or correlation; the fact is the barrel (40” finished) is like driving a freaking “I” beam, truck axle or whatever adjective you choose.

I, always, enjoy seeing people drive the beast and watching their reaction after the first shot. It’s a unique firing impulse.

I read about tunes …. Defining where a tune will work and if conditions change will the tune work. The fact is … my 416 was tuned at 1326’ altitude, remained in tune down to 2’ of elevation fired over salt water, and remained in tune up to 7000’ altitude. Not a single change in any load specific. I tune and hand load ALL of my own.
Offset doesn’t change a single minute measurement. 8-3/8” high at my home … 8-3/8” high at 6658’ in Raton, NM. Velocity changes with the ammo temperature.

All of this academia debate .. text book discussion, arguing and mud slinging means absolutely nothing. When your boots hit the ground and your ass is in the dirt …. The debate often turns a 180 degree the other way.

Full disclosure…. John has been a huge supporter of me, my efforts and the ELR goals that I have. I’m appreciative, BUT if I felt another barrel offered me a greater advantage …. I would go get one. Until that occurs, I have two structured barrels ready to go for 2024. I leave NO stone or detail left unattended with regard to my 416 and the components included in the system.

I’m unapologetic, steadfast and confident the technology offers me a fair advantage. I’ve spent too many years chasing the sport to use an inferior product.

Come spend a couple days with me in Tennessee… I will be more than happy to let you drive it. I will be at Shot Show in a couple weeks … send a message and we can meet and discuss. Have a good evening gentleman!

Cheers ..
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
RLTW

Hi Chris,
An on line interview. Subjectively objective anecdotes. SOA.

1) How many rounds on the current barrel?
2) Still a true one hole gun?
3) Fire cracking description?
4) Throat erosion?
5) Ladder test width?
6) What do you mean a node in a node?
7) Are you aware of other Structured Barrels acting the same?
8) "No Vertical"- in the ELR world what is that?
9) How important to control that?
10) You have shot a few of our guns- Do they all have unique recoil in your experience?
11) I use the term "quiet" to describe the recoil: Is that a fair statement?
12) Our AR... was it unique?
13) You have 800+ rounds on the barrel: How many have been tracked and recorded?
14) On a scale of 1-10 (10 high): Do you consider yourself detail oriented?
15) Is Mirage a reduced event?
16) You had a side by side event on the island: two .416's were present. What was the differences between the two guns?
17) Did they shoot the same? all aspects.
18) As I recall- one of the shooters then bought two 22cal barrels to test on their platform. Chris Baxter groups shown earlier. What do you think of the results of the 22cal groups?

Most important question: You have a unique "in your face" military background. If you were to be in an engagement and you are on an over-watch team or sniper team:
Scale of 1-10 (10 high) our barrel on the gun or standard barrel?
Same question comparing a standard barrel to ours: What is the scale 1-10 (10 high) that you would choose a standard barrel over ours?

BIG NOTE: When we say standard barrel- there is absolutely no derogatory intent. Without a great barrel we are a waste of time. We just try to take the great barrel to greater extended capabilities..

 

[John Baker]

I have seen others test concentricity and claim it does not matter. I’ll put it out there that I am not a fan of group testing because any time someone is trying to shoot a tiny group, just breathing incorrectly can wreck havoc. It has been proposed that the bullets that are not concentric will aligns itself. Does it matter? You know from your physics background that you want to isolate a system down to its simplest complexity. We have no idea under what complexity concentricity matters and doesn’t matter.

Let’s say an unstructured barrel could never discern bullet concentricity’s impact because of its physic properties. Maybe a structured barrel can? Of course, this is hypothetical but it’s yet another test that could be favorable for structured barrels under the assumption that its process is more stable. What I mean by “stable” process is that the barrel’s precision could be held to tighter tolerances.

Imagine this experiment having favorable results and then the comment section turning into “well the ammunition wasn’t perfect for the unstructured barrel.” I suspect most of those people have never shot a large sample size because groups only grow as replications increase. World record groups notwithstanding. Which is why mean radius is a more favorable response variable.

This is a tricky scenario when it comes to pleasing the mod. It’s just a tricky problem.

What if we group them by .001" values and they become part of the random number generator? Or sub groups within the generated numbers?

Noting -" Will a barrel straighten the bullet"... my gut says not completely. The forces are so high that its initial offset would become an issue. If I take a precise rod and try to drop it into a precise bore and it is slightly out of axis- beating it with a hammer does not solve the problem LOL. In fact you cab lock things up substantially. Bearing bores and squared up races. At some point could something re-align- perhaps. The "perhaps no" side is the bullets are soft compared to the barrel and forces being applied and I believe the bullet will fail in shape first.
We have collected fired rounds and have some in which the engraving is so offset, side to side, and end to end, that you wonder how it got down the barrel. Truly wonder.
At the very least a non-concentric round is (in my mind) guaranteed to create lesser BC values as the nose is pointing in a axis that is now greater than predicted as compared to the bore.

 

[IntoTransonic]

Hi Chris,
An on line interview. Subjectively objective anecdotes. SOA.

1) How many rounds on the current barrel?

840 rounds

2) Still a true one hole gun?

yes … but, more importantly it hasn’t changed in the life of the barrel. Clean cold bore … or cold bore. Zero group size is very good.

3) Fire cracking description?

I have documented this from the beginning. I use a borescope for a number of reasons. At 840 rounds … I have fire cracking 4” into the bore. To be fair, I am not a speed junky. Accuracy first … speed second.

4) Throat erosion?

The throat is in amazingly good condition. I will be happy to scope/video the barrel for all to see.

5) Ladder test width?

I have never done ladder tests with any of my competition rifles. ALL tuning has been accomplished at 100 yards. I use plumb lines drawn onto target noting/following center of bore in relation to poi. I work to achieve consistent pressure loads through seating depth as a final determinant.

6) What do you mean a node in a node?

I have found that I could take the caliber/barrel another step. I tune a rifle much like many making small incremental changes … isolating one variable at a time. Before I compete with a new barrel/tune …. It has to repeat, in testing, three consecutive range trips. Think 6 dasher ES and that is what I experience with my ELR rifle (3-4 ES).

7) Are you aware of other Structured Barrels acting the same?

Yes, Chase Stoud is a highly competent shooter who uses a structured barrel. Plus, we have sent several barrels to Europe (my reamer/my 416 design) with same level performance.

8) "No Vertical"- in the ELR world what is that?

Lack of vertical at distance is the holy grail of success for any ELR shooter. The “room for error” is very small when distance is added to the equation. If vertical’s are introduced into the system….. the shooter/spotter end up chasing their previous shot.

9) How important to control that?

Controlling verticals is a variable we all work to eliminate. If barrel temp increases rapidly in a 10-15 shot string, and with time restrictions …. It’s easy to experience a “high/low” situation. It’s not uncommon to fire three -five rounds in a minute to a minute and a half. At distance … when a shooter has a hit; the follow up shot is typically immediately after an impact report from scoring. Remember … we are using 185+ grains of powder … a lot of heat is produced. Controlling the heat is one variable that equates to success at distance.

10) You have shot a few of our guns- Do they all have unique recoil in your experience?

Yes, it’s unique and I find it very difficult to explain. That’s why I enjoy watching others drive the 416. There are a number of videos out where it appears to not even move me. My follow up shot is typically moving the rifle forward just a bit meaning reticle is above target after recoil impulse.

11) I use the term "quiet" to describe the recoil: Is that a fair statement?

Again, it’s unique and I have a difficult time explaining. Sure, the combination of the barrel, weight, recoil lug placement, muzzle brake are all contributing; but, it’s a very soft recoil impulse. To give an idea … it’s a Sunday drive in your grandmothers caddy. It’s surprisingly very very smooth.

12) Our AR... was it unique?

Even more so than my bolt gun. The difference is more drastic given all the moving parts compared to a bedded bolt gun.

13) You have 800+ rounds on the barrel: How many have been tracked and recorded?

Probably the number one question I receive ….. hey Chris what do you right down in your book. It is always with me. I track round counts, barrel conditions, clean/dirty conditions … temps, locations, target packages … atmospherics.

14) On a scale of 1-10 (10 high): Do you consider yourself detail oriented?

10. Wife calls me anal. I feel it has been one reason for consistency over the years with varying calibers. Patterns exist in our sport … identifying those patterns adds to consistency.

15) Is Mirage a reduced event?

Mirage is reduced from the scope objective to the muzzle. Mirage exists in space beyond, but having a clearer sight picture is a welcome feature. ELR … mirage and the ability to perform in heavy mirage conditions divides the competition field quickly.

16) You had a side by side event on the island: two .416's were present. What was the differences between the two guns?

Yes …. On an island shooting over salt water to targets staked above water line. Big difference, again, is heat in the barrel. Two rifles … my reamer, my design …. Structured barrel retained less heat than standard barrel. Again …. It’s all about verticals and heat can/will introduce verticals.

17) Did they shoot the same? all aspects.

Both rifles uses an exact tune … same bullet… same powder. Same everything other than one was in a chassis. My rifle is in a bedded McMillan beast Gen 2 stock. John… strings of fire introduce building heat in barrels. I see less verticals because of the slowing heat build up.

18) As I recall- one of the shooters then bought two 22cal barrels to test on their platform. Chris Baxter groups shown earlier. What do you think of the results of the 22cal groups?

22LR ammo is so specific to a particular rifle. A structured barrel and a wide variety of ammo is an ideal proving ground for the barrel.

Most important question: You have a unique "in your face" military background. If you were to be in an engagement and you are on an over-watch team or sniper team:
Scale of 1-10 (10 high) our barrel on the gun or standard barrel?

I’ve mentioned this to John before … if my life depended on it … I would want my structured barrel with me. It is a confidence value that I would want. I’ve spent a lot of time behind one of your barrels … it’s a variable that is consistent; one that I’m confident with.

The military side and civilian side couldn’t be any more different other than reading wind, fundamentals and spotter/shooter communication. Equipment, specs, ammo (in some cases), objective(s), weight couldn’t be more different.

Reducing verticals in the total solution remains a common factor.

Same question comparing a standard barrel to ours: What is the scale 1-10 (10 high) that you would choose a standard barrel over ours?

I will choose to use a structured barrel everyday that ends In “y”. I’ve used and had success with a number of good Bartlein barrels. Until very recently, I would ONLY use a Bartlein barrel as a foundation for a structured barrel. The host manufacturer is important … I see a structured barrel as a “next level” … adder if you choose. My sport is basically F1 compared to nascar or dirt track type racing. I’m looking for that “better” performance in my 416 system.

I will be using a K&S host barrel for the structuring John performs at his site. All my barrels are gain twist - right hand twist - 40” finished.

A lot of good barrel manufacturers out there … I simply want that next level … next level gear of performance.

BIG NOTE: When we say standard barrel- there is absolutely no derogatory intent. Without a great barrel we are a waste of time. We just try to take the great barrel to greater extended capabilities..

Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions. I want others to enjoy the sport I so dearly appreciate. Best of luck.
Cheers!
Chris Schmidt
Tennesseee

 

[6.5SH]

840 rounds

yes … but, more importantly it hasn’t changed in the life of the barrel. Clean cold bore … or cold bore. Zero group size is very good.

I have documented this from the beginning. I use a borescope for a number of reasons. At 840 rounds … I have fire cracking 4” into the bore. To be fair, I am not a speed junky. Accuracy first … speed second.

The throat is in amazingly good condition. I will be happy to scope/video the barrel for all to see.

I have never done ladder tests with any of my competition rifles. ALL tuning has been accomplished at 100 yards.

I have found that I could take the caliber/barrel another step. I tune a rifle much like many making small incremental changes … isolating one variable at a time. Before I compete with a new barrel/tune …. It has to repeat, in testing, three consecutive range trips. Think 6 dasher ES and that is what I experience with my ELR rifle (3-4 ES).

Yes, Chase Stoud is a highly competent shooter who uses a structured barrel. Plus, we have sent several barrels to Europe (my reamer/my 416 design) with same level performance.

Lack of vertical at distance is the holy grail of success for any ELR shooter. The “room for error” is very small when distance is added to the equation. If vertical’s are introduced into the system….. the shooter/spotter end up chasing their previous shot.

Controlling verticals is a variable we all work to eliminate. If barrel temp increases rapidly in a 10-15 shot string, and with time restrictions …. It’s easy to experience a “high/low” situation. It’s not uncommon to fire three -five rounds in a minute to a minute and a half. At distance … when a shooter has a hit; the follow up shot is typically immediately after an impact report from scoring. Remember … we are using 185+ grains of powder … a lot of heat is produced. Controlling the heat is one variable that equates to success at distance.

Yes, it’s unique and I find it very difficult to explain. That’s why I enjoy watching others drive the 416. There are a number of videos out where it appears to not even move me. My follow up shot is typically moving the rifle forward just a bit meaning reticle is above target after recoil impulse.

Again, it’s unique and I have a difficult time explaining. Sure, the combination of the barrel, weight, recoil lug placement, muzzle brake are all contributing; but, it’s a very soft recoil impulse. To give an idea … it’s a Sunday drive in your grandmothers caddy. It’s surprisingly very very smooth.

Even more so than my bolt gun. The difference is more drastic given all the moving parts compared to a bedded bolt gun.

Probably the number one question I receive ….. hey Chris what do you right down in your book. It is always with me. I track round counts, barrel conditions, clean/dirty conditions … temps, locations, target packages … atmospherics.

10. Wife calls me anal. I feel it has been one reason for consistency over the years with varying calibers. Patterns exist in our sport … identifying those patterns adds to consistency.

Mirage is reduced from the scope objective to the muzzle. Mirage exists in space beyond, but having a clearer sight picture is a welcome feature. ELR … mirage and the ability to perform in heavy mirage conditions divides the competition field quickly.

Yes …. On an island shooting over salt water to targets staked above water line. Big difference, again, is heat in the barrel. Two rifles … my reamer, my design …. Structured barrel retained less heat than standard barrel. Again …. It’s all about verticals and heat can/will introduce verticals.

Both rifles uses an exact tune … same bullet… same powder. Same everything other than one was in a chassis. My rifle is in a bedded McMillan beast Gen 2 stock. John… strings of fire introduce building heat in barrels. I see less verticals because of the slowing heat build up.

22LR ammo is so specific to a particular rifle. A structured barrel and a wide variety of ammo is an ideal proving ground for the barrel.

I’ve mentioned this to John before … if my life depended on it … I would want my structured barrel with me. It is a confidence value that I would want. I’ve spent a lot of time behind one of your barrels … it’s a variable that is consistent; one that I’m confident with.

The military side and civilian side couldn’t be any more different other than reading wind, fundamentals and spotter/shooter communication. Equipment, specs, ammo (in some cases), objective(s), weight couldn’t be more different.

Reducing verticals in the total solution remains a common factor.

I will choose to use a structured barrel everyday that ends In “y”. I’ve used and had success with a number of good Bartlein barrels. Until very recently, I would ONLY use a Bartlein barrel as a foundation for a structured barrel. The host manufacturer is important … I see a structured barrel as a “next level” … adder if you choose. My sport is basically F1 compared to nascar or dirt track type racing. I’m looking for that “better” performance in my 416 system.

I will be using a K&S host barrel for the structuring John performs at his site. All my barrels are gain twist - right hand twist - 40” finished.

A lot of good barrel manufacturers out there … I simply want that next level … next level gear of performance.

Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions. I want others to enjoy the sport I so dearly appreciate. Best of luck.
Cheers!
Chris Schmidt
Tennesseee

K.S. Arms from Canada for the next barrel? Can't find a "K&S".
Thanks in advance.

 

[JB.IC]

What if we group them by .001" values and they become part of the random number generator? Or sub groups within the generated numbers?

Noting -" Will a barrel straighten the bullet"... my gut says not completely. The forces are so high that its initial offset would become an issue. If I take a precise rod and try to drop it into a precise bore and it is slightly out of axis- beating it with a hammer does not solve the problem LOL. In fact you cab lock things up substantially. Bearing bores and squared up races. At some point could something re-align- perhaps. The "perhaps no" side is the bullets are soft compared to the barrel and forces being applied and I believe the bullet will fail in shape first.
We have collected fired rounds and have some in which the engraving is so offset, side to side, and end to end, that you wonder how it got down the barrel. Truly wonder.
At the very least a non-concentric round is (in my mind) guaranteed to create lesser BC values as the nose is pointing in a axis that is now greater than predicted as compared to the bore.

In theory we could do that, but getting the population parameters to be correct would be the concern. One of the reasons a sample size of 30 is the recommended minimum sample size for estimating a population parameter is because of the asymptotic properties of the CLT. The problem here is we would need 30 observations of 30 shot groups to estimate the population parameters. Which is 900 shots total!

 

[clefairy]

I don’t shoot comps (PRS Benchrest, etc) and when I did, it was just for “professional development.” Closest’comps I shoot now are 200’yd egg shoots to support out local gun club and they are not much of a challenge. But fun.

I do reload just about everything. The only factory rounds I ever buy are shotgun shells and .22lr. And I do it all the old fashioned way with notebooks and groups and DOPE and a databook. That said, I only shoot short distances aka out to 1000 or so.

I’d like to get into ELR but no places Up here to do it safely. If I get into ELR, a chrono will be a requirement. But so far, for the last 41 years since Instarted reloading, I start with published data and work up and down until I get the load I want. I know… very boomer of me.

I don’t have a borescope, either! Figure I am happier that way. But every barrel has a round count in a notebook!

Cheers, Sirhr

I get that you start with published data, what do you use to know how to go up or down on a load?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I get that you start with published data, what do you use to know how to go up or down on a load?

Group size between 100 and 350 (which is the length of the range at Schloss Nitrocellulose.)

Then I can go out further by shooting at 100 yard increments and recording my drop. Once I settle on a load, I just have DOPE on it.

It's primitive. But it works. The first school I went to... that's how we did it out to 1000.

I am not shooting for velocity, I am shooting for group size/accuracy. Most of my loads are way below max velocities. Even when reaching out to 1000... which, today, is a pathetically short range. Honestly most off the shelf precision rifles, even in .308, these days are capable of ringing plates at 1000 with very little work.

And, by way of full disclosure, I love advanced stuff. So when it comes to things like structured barrels (both drilled up and externally-structured as LL referenced above), prism's, cool bullet designs, tuners (I believe in them, but as I said above, I think they are often mis-applied to pencil barrels or to make up for other shorcomings), loading tech, gain twist... and computerized ballistics stuff (see other thread). I'm for it all. I'll try it all. I'll give everything a chance. It comes from a career at the bleeding edge of 'stuff...' both tech and defense.

Except 6.5 Creedmoor. That shit is ghey.

But back to your first question... I'll load up based on published data. See how it does at 100 - 350 or so. Tune up or down. (And I always fireform). Then once I have it shooting gnats at 350... I'll start taking it out further. Though I will admit, I don't get on 1000 yards up here enough. But I know if I am grouping at 350, I can take further with no issues. Just have to watch wind and write down DOPE.

Is it the best way? Well, it's NFG for ELR. But I have not got there yet. I want to and I am in awe of the folks who are shooting that stuff.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Oh and PS... My other hobby is live artillery. So I know a thing or two about shooting 3000 yards with a live anti-tank gun. But those are a whole different ball of wax.. Tire pressure matters. Just 'sayin. Cheers!

 

[Fn 50 cal guy]

840 rounds

yes … but, more importantly it hasn’t changed in the life of the barrel. Clean cold bore … or cold bore. Zero group size is very good.

I have documented this from the beginning. I use a borescope for a number of reasons. At 840 rounds … I have fire cracking 4” into the bore. To be fair, I am not a speed junky. Accuracy first … speed second.

The throat is in amazingly good condition. I will be happy to scope/video the barrel for all to see.

I have never done ladder tests with any of my competition rifles. ALL tuning has been accomplished at 100 yards. I use plumb lines drawn onto target noting/following center of bore in relation to poi. I work to achieve consistent pressure loads through seating depth as a final determinant.

I have found that I could take the caliber/barrel another step. I tune a rifle much like many making small incremental changes … isolating one variable at a time. Before I compete with a new barrel/tune …. It has to repeat, in testing, three consecutive range trips. Think 6 dasher ES and that is what I experience with my ELR rifle (3-4 ES).

Yes, Chase Stoud is a highly competent shooter who uses a structured barrel. Plus, we have sent several barrels to Europe (my reamer/my 416 design) with same level performance.

Lack of vertical at distance is the holy grail of success for any ELR shooter. The “room for error” is very small when distance is added to the equation. If vertical’s are introduced into the system….. the shooter/spotter end up chasing their previous shot.

Controlling verticals is a variable we all work to eliminate. If barrel temp increases rapidly in a 10-15 shot string, and with time restrictions …. It’s easy to experience a “high/low” situation. It’s not uncommon to fire three -five rounds in a minute to a minute and a half. At distance … when a shooter has a hit; the follow up shot is typically immediately after an impact report from scoring. Remember … we are using 185+ grains of powder … a lot of heat is produced. Controlling the heat is one variable that equates to success at distance.

Yes, it’s unique and I find it very difficult to explain. That’s why I enjoy watching others drive the 416. There are a number of videos out where it appears to not even move me. My follow up shot is typically moving the rifle forward just a bit meaning reticle is above target after recoil impulse.

Again, it’s unique and I have a difficult time explaining. Sure, the combination of the barrel, weight, recoil lug placement, muzzle brake are all contributing; but, it’s a very soft recoil impulse. To give an idea … it’s a Sunday drive in your grandmothers caddy. It’s surprisingly very very smooth.

Even more so than my bolt gun. The difference is more drastic given all the moving parts compared to a bedded bolt gun.

Probably the number one question I receive ….. hey Chris what do you right down in your book. It is always with me. I track round counts, barrel conditions, clean/dirty conditions … temps, locations, target packages … atmospherics.

10. Wife calls me anal. I feel it has been one reason for consistency over the years with varying calibers. Patterns exist in our sport … identifying those patterns adds to consistency.

Mirage is reduced from the scope objective to the muzzle. Mirage exists in space beyond, but having a clearer sight picture is a welcome feature. ELR … mirage and the ability to perform in heavy mirage conditions divides the competition field quickly.

Yes …. On an island shooting over salt water to targets staked above water line. Big difference, again, is heat in the barrel. Two rifles … my reamer, my design …. Structured barrel retained less heat than standard barrel. Again …. It’s all about verticals and heat can/will introduce verticals.

Both rifles uses an exact tune … same bullet… same powder. Same everything other than one was in a chassis. My rifle is in a bedded McMillan beast Gen 2 stock. John… strings of fire introduce building heat in barrels. I see less verticals because of the slowing heat build up.

22LR ammo is so specific to a particular rifle. A structured barrel and a wide variety of ammo is an ideal proving ground for the barrel.

I’ve mentioned this to John before … if my life depended on it … I would want my structured barrel with me. It is a confidence value that I would want. I’ve spent a lot of time behind one of your barrels … it’s a variable that is consistent; one that I’m confident with.

The military side and civilian side couldn’t be any more different other than reading wind, fundamentals and spotter/shooter communication. Equipment, specs, ammo (in some cases), objective(s), weight couldn’t be more different.

Reducing verticals in the total solution remains a common factor.

I will choose to use a structured barrel everyday that ends In “y”. I’ve used and had success with a number of good Bartlein barrels. Until very recently, I would ONLY use a Bartlein barrel as a foundation for a structured barrel. The host manufacturer is important … I see a structured barrel as a “next level” … adder if you choose. My sport is basically F1 compared to nascar or dirt track type racing. I’m looking for that “better” performance in my 416 system.

I will be using a K&S host barrel for the structuring John performs at his site. All my barrels are gain twist - right hand twist - 40” finished.

A lot of good barrel manufacturers out there … I simply want that next level … next level gear of performance.

Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions. I want others to enjoy the sport I so dearly appreciate. Best of luck.
Cheers!
Chris Schmidt
Tennesseee

You had to go and break the thread by posting all of that information. The “Call of Duty” warriors shooting their dad’s 6.5 cm at self-proclaimed ELR distances up to 600 yds don’t know how to respond. After all, when they base their comments on what they heard their daughter’s boyfriend’s little brother read somewhere online rather than first-hand experience, meaningful dialog is unlikely.

 

[John Baker]

John B, this would imply that load development is much shorter/simpler/quicker and burning perhaps significantly less components in the process?

I realize a large ES at distance will create vertical, but other than looking for max pressure, then finding lowest available ES/SD working down from the max pressure charge, what else needs to be done to complete load development?

Do you really have to test 5 different bullets and 3 different powders… to find one “that your rifle likes”? Or do they all shoot (almost) equally well.

“We do move the bullet up and down the lands to help control pressure at the bolt”:

OK, so jump has limited effect on group size, but a shorter jump (or especially a jam) will increase peak pressure and therefore speed. A hard jam could spike the pressure over a 100 fps in some cases, so there certainly is a strong effect there to play with. So yes i can see how seating depth becomes a tuning variable that leaves group size intact (structured barrels do not whip and therefore do not benefit from or suffer from positive/negative compensation), but seating depth/COAL still moves speed and pressure up or down to stay close to max…. Perhaps to compensate for temp sensitivity of your primers, more so than powders. [We have “Extreme” powders like H4350 that are far more temp stable than before, but no temp stable primers yet…]

Do you now use COAL as a tuning variable to deal with the temp sensitivity of the powder/primer combo, load a slightly longer jump for summer and a smaller jump for winter, or even a mild jam for mid-winter in the deep snow? To avoid over pressure situations only, or do you try to keep the speed the same as before? Do you still see flat spots/nodes in the powder vs speed diagram…. To help minimize your SD.

Sorry, million questions… but you see where i am going with this…

Sorry about this late reply- I passed right on by it somehow.

Technically we (and others) have found the barrels very easy to tune to. We typically look for concentricity and then for ES/SD. We do different bullets just to show their forgiveness. Our throats are usually set for heavy rounds and though we can get lighter rounds (230 vs 168g) to shoot it is a big jump or literally balancing the bullet in the case throat with just enough pressure to hold it in place. No matter what the lighter rounds have big jumps typically.

Yes: our limited experience usually puts us at a .025-.050 initial jump for pressure control than start walking it in. Again we need to be capable of shooting (when we load) as if it was a factory round. Got to chamber, shoot, and extract.

Unfortunately we are not the group to answer using COAL as a variable when linked to temp, powder/primer combos... We do not tune to the level others do here as we are not competitive shooters the need is not present. With that- once we hit bolt set back (noting an average 75-80deg day) we will drop a couple of grains just to make sure we can operate at 90-100deg ambient. If we positively know we will be 75 or less we might add a grain back. Our Kestrel builds focus on the temperature of the shoot- a 60deg gun, 80deg gun etc... with out limited experience we want to have a more predictable outcome as the ranges increase.

 

[John Baker]

View attachment 8314045View attachment 8314046
Day 2- same 300Norma Tubb Gun. Rounds 21-30. 208gr at 3164fps. 1800+ rounds on the barrel.

Not a 30 round group. Component testing 25shots: 87,88 grains, neck sized vs annealed, full length size. "I expect all 100yd groups to be 1hole or touching". 338Lapua- currently 2000+rounds "still the most accurate rifle I have". Dan Brock

 

[John Baker]

Not a 30 round group. Component testing 25shots: 87,88 grains, neck sized vs annealed, full length size. "I expect all 100yd groups to be 1hole or touching". 338Lapua- currently 2000+rounds "still the most accurate rifle I have". Dan BrockView attachment 8317798

Is the barrel forgiving during load development?
4 loads. 5 shots each group. Consecutive groups. Bipod, rear squeeze bag. 300Norma.
Left to Right.
168gr Sierra 3400fps
168gr Sierra 2200fps
230gr Berger Hybrid 2970fps
190gr Sierra 3200fps
Same hold. No scope adjustment.
The F1 shooter who did this - shot the gun without a cheek piece. My chassis did not fit him so he shot without it.... some control for sure.
Can someone post a similar test in order to establish base line comparisons?

 

[John Baker]

Is the barrel forgiving during load development?
4 loads. 5 shots each group. Consecutive groups. Bipod, rear squeeze bag. 300Norma.
Left to Right.
168gr Sierra 3400fps
168gr Sierra 2200fps
230gr Berger Hybrid 2970fps
190gr Sierra 3200fps
Same hold. No scope adjustment.
The F1 shooter who did this - shot the gun without a cheek piece. My chassis did not fit him so he shot without it.... some control for sure.
Can someone post a similar test in order to establish base line comparisons?
View attachment 8318582View attachment 8318583View attachment 8318585View attachment 8318588

AR10 .260Rem, Vortex Genll 3-18. 9:30sec shoot time. 19sec per round. 30rounds total. No sighters. Normal is 200yd zero.
Fed Gold Match 142gr
100yds, wind 4:30-3:00, 6-20+, 58deg sunny.
Bipod and rear bag
Auto/mag feed.
Interestingly the 5round on rounds 1-20 all (coincidentally) showed a slight left pull. In one case 1". Could be a jerk behind the trigger also.
21-30 used 6 rounds in the mag and shot 5.
The gun started on a clean cold bore round.
Final barrel temp 85deg. We could easily go another 20-30rds.

 

[dyecocker1]

What I am saying is "scale". Noting we are not a "real manufacturer" ... choice words.

Don't sweat it, he is just a bully looking down on the world

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If anyone is at SHOT, these two rifles were built by us, for TRIARC Systems and are at the Accufire Booth. Both utilizing structured barrels.

No data to relay as we only test fired them.

 

[kthomas]

If anyone is at SHOT, these two rifles were built by us, for TRIARC Systems and are at the Accufire Booth. Both utilizing structured barrels.

No data to relay as we only test fired them.


View attachment 8330789View attachment 8330790

If for nothing else, those structured barrels look pretty badass.

 

[John Baker]

If for nothing else, those structured barrels look pretty badass.

You got me at "Hello"..

 

[John Baker]

View attachment 8319714
AR10 .260Rem, Vortex Genll 3-18. 9:30sec shoot time. 19sec per round. 30rounds total. No sighters. Normal is 200yd zero.
Fed Gold Match 142gr
100yds, wind 4:30-3:00, 6-20+, 58deg sunny.
Bipod and rear bag
Auto/mag feed.
Interestingly the 5round on rounds 1-20 all (coincidentally) showed a slight left pull. In one case 1". Could be a jerk behind the trigger also.
21-30 used 6 rounds in the mag and shot 5.
The gun started on a clean cold bore round.
Final barrel temp 85deg. We could easily go another 20-30rds.

6xc - Factory rounds
Tubb Gun, Vortex Gen lll, Tubb muzzle brake, Magneto Speed used for data.
60shots- group shown is 56-60- 12minute cycle.
100yds, Phoenix Bipod, rear bag, prone.
69deg ambient. Final barrel temp 110max read with a chamber value of 93deg. Wind 11:00 2-5mph. 34%RH
Stripped clean cold bore shot included.
2 Witnesses.

A question - is it your experience to see SD's flatten as the barrel carbons/coppers back up? Not specific to or barrel. My intuition says "yes". With that: the question becomes how many foulers should be shot?