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Gunsmithing Any thoughts on structured barrels?
- Thread starter TriggerJerk!
- Start date
You should see the tenon for a GII barrel extension.Are you suggesting that it's a bad idea to have interrupted muzzle threads?
Yeah I don’t know the muzzle threads so have 8 slight depressions and the brake I have threaded right in and on and work fine
Maybe it is does something? Bad or good? But man! The rifle shoots really well so I don’t care
The intent of the grooves is to use the lower pressure at the muzzle to draw air through the holes in the barrel that are around the bore (Venturi effect), supposed to help in cooling. This would obviously be negated with the use of some muzzle devices, like suppressors.
A recently testimonial- Military- ranked PRS shooter-
Hahaha. This will be two messages long bc of IG. Stand by:
The idea of a hot-rod .223 came from my attendance at caliber restricted matches. I had to use a true .223 Remington, not an Ackley Improved or anything. I wanted to use 90 gr A-tips from Hornady to give me a competitive edge. Having tried the 90’s in other barrels several times with no success; I remembered the structured barrels from TACOMHQ and the claims they made about harmonic/node insensitivity.
I was easily able to find several nodes that would stabilize the heavy 90 gr bullet, including one node at 2800 fps with no pressure signs (only a 24” barrel).
I’m pleased the 90’s worked out, but the thing that was the most impressive to me was what I found during the break-in process. I have several different types of .223 ammo from cheap bulk to match grade.
I fired all of it. It all shot well. Some obviously better than others, but the worst group was just under a minute of angle. Several match grade groups under 3/8ths MOA. The best group(s) being under 1/4 MOA with hand loads. Even more impressive than that was that it shot every type of bullet in the same point of impact. I’ve only ever had to zero my scope one time. I can swap ammunition, and simply change kestrel profiles and it’s a totally different gun, hassle free.
I often make the joke that I have the most accurate .223 in North America. I don’t know if that’s true, but I would confidently put it up against any challengers. I’m looking forward to trying more barrels in other calibers to see if it the magic holds up!
The same noted gun at 1000yds.
I recently saw him and team members at Fort Chaffee.. both are purchasing barrels and noted how good these barrels shoot. We demoed a 300 Norma with a Netherland group shooting 168gr at 3400fps and 230's at 2950 at a 1500m target. Changed the Kestrel and shot with no new sight in or left to right input changes- back to back rounds. Our Norma was stretched out to 3200m a couple of years back on man size targets.
To specifically note: it has to be a good blank and good rifling. We just quiet the system down. It's like driving a current C8 Z06 Corvette as compared to 20years ago the same performance would be thunderous and ill mannered. Simple forgiveness to most any load (good chambers and concentric loads are still important).
In many cases the muzzle thread will be interrupted due to the deep hole drilling event. We do recommend "plugging" them. Not due to strength concerns but to stop any gasses from traveling back up the barrel- and they do. We either fill with a JB Weld 24hr epoxy (using release agents and at least two applications) or we cut for a spiral lock ring and silicone o-ring sealing the brake onto itself.
Yes- the intent is to move air through the barrel. We have been working with third party (Helber in South Africa) on computer simulations and real life concerning brakes- we are moving air at up to 80fps through the barrel.
Yeah, that’s an easy enough thing to do. Although in the meantime, I have a muzzle brake with a crush washer, and it’s not showing any signs of gas running through the little indents on the threads for the muzzle brake. This is by far the most accurate rifle I have ever shot and I’ve been able to shoot a whole lot of very very expensive F class rifles, as well as military long-range rifles so I must say again Mr. John Baker awesome job. I am very happy with the outcome of my structured barrel.
Anybody got new results to report using a structured barrel?
Thinking of building a 41XC using that.
Thinking of building a 41XC using that.
I’ve had really good results with my structured barrel. Highly worth the wait, and etc
So been a while since I dropped by this thread. I didn't get as much shooting with the Structured Barrel this summer as I wanted. Just endless outdoor work at the farm. But I did blast off enough ammo to now have about 100 total rounds made up to test down in Oklahoma next month when I go down on a Hog Hunt. The ranch has a 1000 yard range and I'm bringing a lot of .300. Some for fireforming. Some that I just loaded up that is neck turned, etc.
What I can say is that the rifle so far is shooting better with 'junk' fireforming ammo that some of my rifles shoot with carefully-prepped match rounds. The recoil impulse for a .300 WM is... minimal. The repeatability is fantastic.
As for doing a 41XC on a structured barrel... Do it!!! Worth the wait. And it's definitely a whole new world has opened up with this technology being scaled into small arms.
I'll send pix and data from OK!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Did you find that detailed load development could be skipped, and simply loading a safe amount below max (no need to look for flat spots in the speed graph), with a nominal small bullet jump worked just as well regardless the jump/jam you used? So need for optimizing bullet jump. Or was same degree of optimization still needed. Just curious!
I literally just loaded up a “medium ish” load of varget .230 grain bullets and Peterson brass with cci br primers
It shoots better than any rifle I’ve had the privilege to shoot so I m just leaving it there
as its impossible to discuss...we always like pics either way
This thread has been very informative. Especially when you consider it went from “What is it, and how does it work” to outstanding results from members in only 2.5 years.
Keep the results coming folks.
Keep the results coming folks.
First question: Given the harmonic attenuation reported from structured barrel owners here, can we assume that structured barrels provide better dampening than can be achieved with barrel tuners?
Second question: Does harmonic attenuation decrease as a function of caliber for barrels of the same O.D. (i.e. barrel outside diameter has upper limits for most common chassis; therefore does harmonic attenuation change substantially as a function of O.D./I.D. ratio)?
I ask because it appears the answer to the first is “yes”, but give practical dimensional limits on barrel size (for common chassis) the answer to second may be “yes” but so small as to be insignificant.
Second question: Does harmonic attenuation decrease as a function of caliber for barrels of the same O.D. (i.e. barrel outside diameter has upper limits for most common chassis; therefore does harmonic attenuation change substantially as a function of O.D./I.D. ratio)?
I ask because it appears the answer to the first is “yes”, but give practical dimensional limits on barrel size (for common chassis) the answer to second may be “yes” but so small as to be insignificant.
Good questions. I know a lot of comp shooters here, where I live have pretty heavy large OD barrels…. And they are very heavy . So
Practically speaking … the structured barrel is lighter compared to the equal OD barrel “not structured “
Also
To be honest
I bought my barrel and had Tacom HQ do everything as per treatment to make the barrel structured…..
It shoots just fine
And def stay cooler in the heat shooting fast but …..
It is just a barrel
Maybe the One part that is that one very important component…that makes a huge difference? But it is still just a part of the whole….
So
It was a purchase I made almost as a personal experiment and to help grow as a shooter/ learn as I go
I hear the claims and arguments many make
But
. I don’t care to hear about any of it. I just reload round
Go to the range
And enjoy shooting
In a year or so
I think I’ll have a better idea of what the structured barrel
Did for
Me as at the moment I have about 163 rounds down the barrel including David tubs barrel Break bullets
So I just spend the day in the chip-cuttng and R&D Wonderland that is TACOM HQ... in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Spent much of the day with John Baker and had, literally, a blast. Shot some amazing rifles and will have a full write-up tomorrow with pictures.
Impressed doesn't cover the half of it!
I will preface my write up tomorrow with the fact that I am under NDA with them. But despite that, there is lots to talk about that is fair game and, well, it's fantastic stuff.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Shooting in the rain and high cross winds made checking the targets sort of... a mess. We had to pull John's Suburban out with his Hummer... The trip out to the 400 mark (bottom photo) was marginal. The trip back put us up to the axles... But all's well that ends well and we got both rigs back on dry(ish) ground! Was also totally worth it!
Impressed doesn't cover the half of it!
I will preface my write up tomorrow with the fact that I am under NDA with them. But despite that, there is lots to talk about that is fair game and, well, it's fantastic stuff.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Shooting in the rain and high cross winds made checking the targets sort of... a mess. We had to pull John's Suburban out with his Hummer... The trip out to the 400 mark (bottom photo) was marginal. The trip back put us up to the axles... But all's well that ends well and we got both rigs back on dry(ish) ground! Was also totally worth it!
Compromises: Engineering is all give and take.
On the larger barrels a tuner has essentially no effect on our barrels. I have also spun brakes in/out on our 33xc barrels with essentially no shift at 200yds.
While I do believe our barrels potentially negate the need for a tuner, at some point in some instance "never" is a big word.
Smaller barrels made to fit smaller channels (barrels 1.25dia) I would think would respond.
Reducing the diameter of the barrel reduces its stiffness. Weight for weight it is significantly stiffer. However, building a barrel to fit current PRS, F1, hunting channels will potentially create the same stiffness at a reduced weight. In fact, the common question from PRS guys is "can you make it heavier". What has been found is a barrel that weighs 30% less performs at the same level as the solid heavier barrels. See the post by Mark and Sam after work where he notes the lighter structured barrel performs at the level as the heavier solid barrel.
I must admit I am biased- cut the channels LOL. Giving up accuracy and cooling for a dimension for my simple engineering brain is an easy choice. All of the barrels will fit into an optimized package: greatest stiffness, highest cooling and the lowest effective weight. On mid caliber barrels the difference is usually within 4lbs (channel fitting to optimized)- or the near equivalent of the solid barrel presently used.
In really reduced terms the OD becomes the main driver of the strength.
So the site was down this morning for maintenance, so I went off to play in the wilds of OK for the morning...
But wanted to give my rundown on the visit to TACOM. For those who remember, I got interested in these barrels when they first started to be discussed on SH c. 2020. And was immediately interested in the potential. We had worked with the concepts and the 'large scale' stuff at GD and there were absolute benefits for large (artillery and gatling/aircraft cannon) barrels. But for the smaller stuff, it was not economic.... just change a barrel. And when Uncle Sam (who is spending your money) says it's too spendy to justify in high-rate cannon barrels... you listen. But for the big stuff it's already used in some systems and does very good things and the 'economics' is not a factor when you need pinpoint accuracy on NLOS systems in particular.
What TACOM has done is to bring the technology down to the small arms level and as some know, when it comes to machining and miniaturizing, things get more complicated not less. To bring this to the small arms world has been a really interesting journey and, well, it has succeeded.
As I mentioned, I am under NDA so can't go into too much in detail. But I can talk about the scope of our conversation and give some impressions.
First, I came expecting a big 10 or 15 person operation. It's actually just John and his son in about a 6000 square foot shop near his home outside Fort Smith. That they are achieving the throughput that they are speaks to their work ethic! Because they are also making prisms for ELR hunting, scope protectors and working on some other proprietary stuff. The shop is neat as a pin. Everything is well-organized with barrels and names and customers all well-labeled and carefully stored. There is an on-site reloading area. And a number of projects in process. Also some of John's testbed rifles, which I'll tall about later.
A couple of CNC machining centers, lathes and some older manual stuff..
So the visit started with a quick shop tour and a look at several of John's personal guns. I won't go into details of some of the modifications, but from a technology perspective, he is treating the whole platform as a system with the barrel being one element. The things I saw on the R&D side are not only impressive, they are bleeding edge.
Conversation, while it was raining cats and dogs, went for about three hours and we discussed the gamut of things from vibration/harmonic mitigation to cooling to metallurgy to chassis design and I came away not only thinking that the structured barrel stuff is, as I have thought all along, a winning technology for ELR competition and the .mil world... but that we have not seen anything from TACOM yet. Also handled the prism's for the first time and they are really cool pieces of equipment. Does everyone need one? No. Do I need one. Not really. If you are starting to think about cold bore hits at 2+ miles or .mil applications... yes. You should be looking at this.
It's not for deer hunters... or 300 yard shooters. But that's not who the stuff is being made for. This is the absolute oleading edge of internal ballistics and will have ramifications for external ballistics for years to come.
So once the rain slowed down, we got out three rifles. One was my Structured Barrel .300 Win Mag which I've now put about 100 rounds through. @pmclaine I think is the only other person here who has fired it. My ammo at this point is still 'fireform' ammo. But I am gradually building up enough fire formed .300 to do a batch of really tier-one ammo for it. John also broke out his .300 Norma Mag. (A caliber I lust after). And a .260 Gas Gun. First time I have shot a .260 in, I think about 8 years. Great cartridge that was going to be the next big thing then the 6.5 Creedmore came along and everyone jumped ship.
Front to back, My .300 Win mag. John's .300 Norma. And his .260 gas gun.
The rain had not totally let up when we started shooting and he had a con call and I had to get on the road to OK, so shooting was limited. First, I shot his .300 Norma. We had poor visibility out at the 400 berm (the longest at his home range.) And 15 - 20 gusting full value crosswinds from the right. (The house next door to him, BTW, was destroyed by a tornado three months ago.... his house is untouched. Reminded me that wind down here is serious...) The Norma didn't fit me great and I didn't want to mess with the stock, but got parallax adjusted, good magnification (wicked nice ZCO on that gun, BTW). I got four shots off. First was sort of a sighter. The next three gave a nice group. I have no doubt that if I fitted it up better and fired more rounds, I'd have really dialed it in.
As with my rifle, the recoil impulse is like shooting a .308. In other words, almost none. I watched the bullets splash on the targets. I could adjust my own holds. I was back on target well enough to see (not shoot) but see... before the bullet had hit at 400... Which is pretty impressive! Here is the target, BTW. I mixed up my aim points so we didn't have to drive out too many times in the mud (see yesterday's post). BTW, the Norma 'sighter' is not circled. It's high center mass a bit to the left... the only other hole we put in his steel (Sorry John!) The next three shots are near the rectangle. My wind calls account for the spread, methinks.
Next tried the gas gun. Again, unfamiliar, but at least I shoot AR-10 platforms enough that it was pretty easy to tuck into. Forgot what optic it has. But, again, got my parallax set and figured I'd go for the head. First shot just clipped the 'neck.' Second I got it centered up better and then 3 and 4 were using a bit of 'Kentucky' Windage and were touching. If I had not run out shells in the magazine, I don't think I'd have had a problem keeping them right in that spot. Again, the structured barrel with the gas gun was interesting. Very dead... little or no recoil. Very apparent that the last round had fired because the bolt impulse was 'more apparent' than it is usually. You could feel the difference easily. Not that sort of 'subtle' I'm Empty feel. I'd actually have liked to fire this one for several magazines, but time was running out. Even though the rain was stopping, the wind picked up even more. BTW, I think 2 is to the left of the number... and partly off the picture. The one to the right of the 2 is an old strike. John Baker may have a better picture.
Last, I shot my own gun. The .300 Win Mag. with Structured Barrel. As I mentioned, I only have about 100 rounds through this and am still fireforming. The experience remains the same. Almost no felt recoil. I had a suppressor on this and that made an interesting 'feel' to shooting it, because I didn't hear the shot or really 'feel' the shot, but heard the crack of the bullet bouncing off a stone wall to my left much louder than the shot. And then the whack of bullet on steel. Again, everything the structured barrel is purported to do and has been described from the earliest pages... yup, it's doing that. I fired two sighters (actually my first round hit the ground... my turret had gotten twisted probably when I was showing the rifle to someone last summer...). But brought back to zero and put round one about where I wanted it. Then settled in and fired off four more kind of quick shots before John suggested we drive out and look at some groups. He was spotting and my last four shots he kept saying "I think you keyholed your last shot.) 4 of 5 went into about 1.5 inches at 400 and, again, I was back on target fast enough to watch the splashes. Recoil, compared to my Mk 13, was almost nil. Like shooting my very heavy TRG-22 with match .308. My only surprise with this string was that it is one of the longer distances I've shot this and how easy it was to just shoot fast and know the round was going where it was supposed to. No need even for a spotter. I saw them hit.
So a handful of rounds in the rain doesn't make or break a technology... But shooting two other (albiet unfamiliar) rifles and getting the same results certainly speaks for my rifle not being a fluke. THe more important part of the day was the conversations with John and his ability to digest and respond to some of my more probing questions and observations. There was also no hesitation to explain or expand on a question. No humming and hawing. No snakeoil sales... this is a guy who gets the technology and can talk to a molecular level... a math level... a materials science level... he knows all the barrel makers and their in's and out's and how to maximize the structuring process on each. He gets machining, again at a microfinishing level that is required to understand how this stuff performs. And he has a passion for it.
So I guess the big question is "Do you need a structured barrel?" I did... if only because it led me down a path of intellectual curiosity at the leading edge of firearms science. And I need another one. Because the technology has come further in 3 years... than it was in 2020. And I need a .300 Norma (John, we'll talk.)
But does the average shooter? I'll say that if you are a casual plinker, the structured barrel will be cool and a novelty and you will get lots of 'cred' showing up on a range with it. But it's long-lead and expensive and isn't likely to do 'that' much for your game. If you are in the ELR game or shooting at high levels of competion... shoot one. Borrow one. See one at a match. Try it out. I'll gladly let folks shoot mine. John has guns. Vestals is turning out some amazing pieces. Find a way to shoot one and you willl be impressed. And if you are in the .mil community, this is a technology that you should seriously be looking at. SOTIC, NavSpecWar, Benning Sniper Program, USMCSS... should be looking at this. Again, I am not sure how far I can go into this without getting into NDA territory, so I will let John expand on that if he wants.
The short version of my trip is that it confirmed what I was pretty sure of when I placed the first order (and started following this thread) in 2020. This isn't just a science fair project that I was interested in any more. This is some serious and game-changing technology that has flowed down from the artillery world to small arms and the "Precision Tactical Marksman" world. Something that sort of 'came into public eye' in a small group of ELR shooters morphed into a big discussion on SH and, as usual, you heard it here first. And certainly is a great example of a technology that is going places in part because of the interest (and support) this community has given it. Including folks like LRI and, if I am not mistaken, @Geno C. has a couple of their prisms. And the folks doing some very advanced .22LR stuff are even taking note (again, not sure I can mention names under NDA... but perhaps John can.)
I'll have one more follow-up, I hope, in the next couple of days. I am down on a hog hunt and while I don't plan on using the .300 for hog hunting, there are a few other LR (and non LR) shooters joining us and the ranch we are on has a 1200 yard range. I brought more than enough ammo for everyone to put several goups down range. So I'll have ammo fire-formed. And a report from a bunch of 'newbies' to long range about their experiences and impressions.
And I plan to streth this out to a 'proper' range in the OK sun! We will definitely get to test out cooling as I expect the line to shoot this will be long.
If I left anything out, just ask. John may chime in... And I want to express my thanks to him for his hospitality and for letting me shoot some really cool rifles... and for getting stuck in the mud on my behalf! Gentleman and a scholar indeed!
Cheers,
Sirhr
But wanted to give my rundown on the visit to TACOM. For those who remember, I got interested in these barrels when they first started to be discussed on SH c. 2020. And was immediately interested in the potential. We had worked with the concepts and the 'large scale' stuff at GD and there were absolute benefits for large (artillery and gatling/aircraft cannon) barrels. But for the smaller stuff, it was not economic.... just change a barrel. And when Uncle Sam (who is spending your money) says it's too spendy to justify in high-rate cannon barrels... you listen. But for the big stuff it's already used in some systems and does very good things and the 'economics' is not a factor when you need pinpoint accuracy on NLOS systems in particular.
What TACOM has done is to bring the technology down to the small arms level and as some know, when it comes to machining and miniaturizing, things get more complicated not less. To bring this to the small arms world has been a really interesting journey and, well, it has succeeded.
As I mentioned, I am under NDA so can't go into too much in detail. But I can talk about the scope of our conversation and give some impressions.
First, I came expecting a big 10 or 15 person operation. It's actually just John and his son in about a 6000 square foot shop near his home outside Fort Smith. That they are achieving the throughput that they are speaks to their work ethic! Because they are also making prisms for ELR hunting, scope protectors and working on some other proprietary stuff. The shop is neat as a pin. Everything is well-organized with barrels and names and customers all well-labeled and carefully stored. There is an on-site reloading area. And a number of projects in process. Also some of John's testbed rifles, which I'll tall about later.
A couple of CNC machining centers, lathes and some older manual stuff..
So the visit started with a quick shop tour and a look at several of John's personal guns. I won't go into details of some of the modifications, but from a technology perspective, he is treating the whole platform as a system with the barrel being one element. The things I saw on the R&D side are not only impressive, they are bleeding edge.
Conversation, while it was raining cats and dogs, went for about three hours and we discussed the gamut of things from vibration/harmonic mitigation to cooling to metallurgy to chassis design and I came away not only thinking that the structured barrel stuff is, as I have thought all along, a winning technology for ELR competition and the .mil world... but that we have not seen anything from TACOM yet. Also handled the prism's for the first time and they are really cool pieces of equipment. Does everyone need one? No. Do I need one. Not really. If you are starting to think about cold bore hits at 2+ miles or .mil applications... yes. You should be looking at this.
It's not for deer hunters... or 300 yard shooters. But that's not who the stuff is being made for. This is the absolute oleading edge of internal ballistics and will have ramifications for external ballistics for years to come.
So once the rain slowed down, we got out three rifles. One was my Structured Barrel .300 Win Mag which I've now put about 100 rounds through. @pmclaine I think is the only other person here who has fired it. My ammo at this point is still 'fireform' ammo. But I am gradually building up enough fire formed .300 to do a batch of really tier-one ammo for it. John also broke out his .300 Norma Mag. (A caliber I lust after). And a .260 Gas Gun. First time I have shot a .260 in, I think about 8 years. Great cartridge that was going to be the next big thing then the 6.5 Creedmore came along and everyone jumped ship.
Front to back, My .300 Win mag. John's .300 Norma. And his .260 gas gun.
The rain had not totally let up when we started shooting and he had a con call and I had to get on the road to OK, so shooting was limited. First, I shot his .300 Norma. We had poor visibility out at the 400 berm (the longest at his home range.) And 15 - 20 gusting full value crosswinds from the right. (The house next door to him, BTW, was destroyed by a tornado three months ago.... his house is untouched. Reminded me that wind down here is serious...) The Norma didn't fit me great and I didn't want to mess with the stock, but got parallax adjusted, good magnification (wicked nice ZCO on that gun, BTW). I got four shots off. First was sort of a sighter. The next three gave a nice group. I have no doubt that if I fitted it up better and fired more rounds, I'd have really dialed it in.
As with my rifle, the recoil impulse is like shooting a .308. In other words, almost none. I watched the bullets splash on the targets. I could adjust my own holds. I was back on target well enough to see (not shoot) but see... before the bullet had hit at 400... Which is pretty impressive! Here is the target, BTW. I mixed up my aim points so we didn't have to drive out too many times in the mud (see yesterday's post). BTW, the Norma 'sighter' is not circled. It's high center mass a bit to the left... the only other hole we put in his steel (Sorry John!) The next three shots are near the rectangle. My wind calls account for the spread, methinks.
Next tried the gas gun. Again, unfamiliar, but at least I shoot AR-10 platforms enough that it was pretty easy to tuck into. Forgot what optic it has. But, again, got my parallax set and figured I'd go for the head. First shot just clipped the 'neck.' Second I got it centered up better and then 3 and 4 were using a bit of 'Kentucky' Windage and were touching. If I had not run out shells in the magazine, I don't think I'd have had a problem keeping them right in that spot. Again, the structured barrel with the gas gun was interesting. Very dead... little or no recoil. Very apparent that the last round had fired because the bolt impulse was 'more apparent' than it is usually. You could feel the difference easily. Not that sort of 'subtle' I'm Empty feel. I'd actually have liked to fire this one for several magazines, but time was running out. Even though the rain was stopping, the wind picked up even more. BTW, I think 2 is to the left of the number... and partly off the picture. The one to the right of the 2 is an old strike. John Baker may have a better picture.
Last, I shot my own gun. The .300 Win Mag. with Structured Barrel. As I mentioned, I only have about 100 rounds through this and am still fireforming. The experience remains the same. Almost no felt recoil. I had a suppressor on this and that made an interesting 'feel' to shooting it, because I didn't hear the shot or really 'feel' the shot, but heard the crack of the bullet bouncing off a stone wall to my left much louder than the shot. And then the whack of bullet on steel. Again, everything the structured barrel is purported to do and has been described from the earliest pages... yup, it's doing that. I fired two sighters (actually my first round hit the ground... my turret had gotten twisted probably when I was showing the rifle to someone last summer...). But brought back to zero and put round one about where I wanted it. Then settled in and fired off four more kind of quick shots before John suggested we drive out and look at some groups. He was spotting and my last four shots he kept saying "I think you keyholed your last shot.) 4 of 5 went into about 1.5 inches at 400 and, again, I was back on target fast enough to watch the splashes. Recoil, compared to my Mk 13, was almost nil. Like shooting my very heavy TRG-22 with match .308. My only surprise with this string was that it is one of the longer distances I've shot this and how easy it was to just shoot fast and know the round was going where it was supposed to. No need even for a spotter. I saw them hit.
So a handful of rounds in the rain doesn't make or break a technology... But shooting two other (albiet unfamiliar) rifles and getting the same results certainly speaks for my rifle not being a fluke. THe more important part of the day was the conversations with John and his ability to digest and respond to some of my more probing questions and observations. There was also no hesitation to explain or expand on a question. No humming and hawing. No snakeoil sales... this is a guy who gets the technology and can talk to a molecular level... a math level... a materials science level... he knows all the barrel makers and their in's and out's and how to maximize the structuring process on each. He gets machining, again at a microfinishing level that is required to understand how this stuff performs. And he has a passion for it.
So I guess the big question is "Do you need a structured barrel?" I did... if only because it led me down a path of intellectual curiosity at the leading edge of firearms science. And I need another one. Because the technology has come further in 3 years... than it was in 2020. And I need a .300 Norma (John, we'll talk.)
But does the average shooter? I'll say that if you are a casual plinker, the structured barrel will be cool and a novelty and you will get lots of 'cred' showing up on a range with it. But it's long-lead and expensive and isn't likely to do 'that' much for your game. If you are in the ELR game or shooting at high levels of competion... shoot one. Borrow one. See one at a match. Try it out. I'll gladly let folks shoot mine. John has guns. Vestals is turning out some amazing pieces. Find a way to shoot one and you willl be impressed. And if you are in the .mil community, this is a technology that you should seriously be looking at. SOTIC, NavSpecWar, Benning Sniper Program, USMCSS... should be looking at this. Again, I am not sure how far I can go into this without getting into NDA territory, so I will let John expand on that if he wants.
The short version of my trip is that it confirmed what I was pretty sure of when I placed the first order (and started following this thread) in 2020. This isn't just a science fair project that I was interested in any more. This is some serious and game-changing technology that has flowed down from the artillery world to small arms and the "Precision Tactical Marksman" world. Something that sort of 'came into public eye' in a small group of ELR shooters morphed into a big discussion on SH and, as usual, you heard it here first. And certainly is a great example of a technology that is going places in part because of the interest (and support) this community has given it. Including folks like LRI and, if I am not mistaken, @Geno C. has a couple of their prisms. And the folks doing some very advanced .22LR stuff are even taking note (again, not sure I can mention names under NDA... but perhaps John can.)
I'll have one more follow-up, I hope, in the next couple of days. I am down on a hog hunt and while I don't plan on using the .300 for hog hunting, there are a few other LR (and non LR) shooters joining us and the ranch we are on has a 1200 yard range. I brought more than enough ammo for everyone to put several goups down range. So I'll have ammo fire-formed. And a report from a bunch of 'newbies' to long range about their experiences and impressions.
And I plan to streth this out to a 'proper' range in the OK sun! We will definitely get to test out cooling as I expect the line to shoot this will be long.
If I left anything out, just ask. John may chime in... And I want to express my thanks to him for his hospitality and for letting me shoot some really cool rifles... and for getting stuck in the mud on my behalf! Gentleman and a scholar indeed!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Coming back to this thread was nice, I recently got a new QC job and some of the things talked about in here made a lot more sense with some of the things I'm involved in there.
That combined with the info from Sirhr and others in thread has made me wonder... @John Baker have you ever done one of these for a Desert Tech platform? Thinking an HTI in .375 CT with one of these would be veritably insane for extreme reach. (.50 BMG would be interesting as well, due to the ammo insensitivity)
Didn't have time to re-read the full thread, but a basic keyword search shows that Cerakote wasn't discussed outside of a vague reference, have you tried any of these SB designs with a cerakote treatment applied? Mostly thinking from the perspective of hard use or not wanting things that stand out like a nice long length of finished stainless does!
Curious about the answers, since my Imagination has me dreaming of doing said HTI topped with a March Genesis and a prism with my next bonus check....
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Actually we have tested two Cerakote products- with the intent of not insulating or holding heat in. One is black one is a gun grey. Both met the original bare barrel heat dissipation. We worked from a starting point of mid three hundreds and timed cool down with temp. The black actually has an advantage as that material does not "sun soak" to the same degree as the grey or bare barrel.
We will also be investigating heat retention within the system along with a fully integrated suppressor.
We have new materials that we are ready to test also...
I have always wanted to build a Desert Tech ground up.
We were involved in one build. During that build it was noted "the barrel shot high". Unfortunately we could not get a full description of the observation and supporting components around the build. I am not sure how a barrel "shoots high". However- it does use an extension and we have recently ran into extension issues on another brand.
Well, keep me posted, it won't be until end of 2023 that I may be able to swing something like that, but I'd be game to acquire the rifle and then send it to you for a custom fitting.
DT has a great track record of working with other companies on innovative products (Blk Lbl being the most high profile), so if you reach out to them I'm sure they'd provide you the necessary technical data to resolve any issues.
Get your fire formed brass loaded by April and I'll meet you in Florida MA again.
I’ll be in greenfield march 30 and on for a couple weeks… I can bring my tacom hq set up…. Message me
If you are going to be in greenfield, you, me and Phil might find a way to meet up near Greenfield. He has a long range a bit West. @pmclaine ??
Sirhr
Yeah sure I just need to know if it is a sure to happen thing so I can pack my gear
It will be happening in April, just sort of depends on whether the weather agrees with our arrival.
Four feet of frost still in the ground makes pounding Tpost a chore add three feet of snow and we will be firing from a snow foxhole.
Today is close to 70 in Boston..let’s have more of this. Possible snow this weekend though.
This hotel is at top of Whitcomb summit.
www.bluevistamotorlodge.com
Appears to be in operation again.
If I stay here I can shit without having my toilet paper roll away from the tree I am leaning against.
This is within 5 miles drive for an adult beverage too….
www.berkshiremenus.com
Four feet of frost still in the ground makes pounding Tpost a chore add three feet of snow and we will be firing from a snow foxhole.
Today is close to 70 in Boston..let’s have more of this. Possible snow this weekend though.
This hotel is at top of Whitcomb summit.
About — Blue Vista Motor Lodge
www.bluevistamotorlodge.com
Appears to be in operation again.
If I stay here I can shit without having my toilet paper roll away from the tree I am leaning against.
This is within 5 miles drive for an adult beverage too….
Golden Eagle Restaurant & Lounge
Hello Sirhr,
A bit drier and haven't gotten stuck this week.
Some tid bits:
Chris Schmidt now holds the cold bore ELR challenge with a three shot 2878 distance. Ultimately he went 6/8 on that target. He is shooting a .416 built by Dan Warner.
A couple of pictures: our 300WM with a Bartlein barrel in a 12-8 twist and its 200yd group during sight in (rds 4,5,6). Front bipod and rear squeeze bag. The brass is once fired brass from another gun. 190Sierras MK.
The itty bitty clean punched holes are from a 7mmSBI shooting a 190Atips at 3036- during load work up- 4rd groups. Gunsmith John Mills.
Another shooter at the NF match shot a sub 2" group at 1005 and did exceptionally well on the second day (more later) 338 EnABLER shooting a 275gr Badlands Bulldozer at 3230. The barrel had 650rds on it before the match and shot the sub 2" group at 800rds.
More later on a 1000yd bencher later- light class (4lbs under) "shoots like my heavy barrel". "Can you add weight?"
Hi John:
That is awesome!!! Congrats to your acolytes!!
Stuff if moving at an amazing pace right now in Precision Rifle!
Cheers,
Sirhr
That is awesome!!! Congrats to your acolytes!!
Stuff if moving at an amazing pace right now in Precision Rifle!
Cheers,
Sirhr
This is great to see! Any chance being a VERY happy owner of a Tacom hq structured barrel? I can ever visit you guys and see what your day is like? And also just chat?
We are always open to constructive visits. A bit of shooting too. What are you thinking about for a barrel?
Reach out to me [email protected]
A recent 4rd grp at 100yds (at Raton NM) . .416 Barrett the barrel has 850+ rds on it. Same gun that was used for the cold bore record. This is a few levels up of shooter capability.John Baker is a highly intelligent man …. Way further up the chain than I. The structured barrel that I have has really been special, and we are in the process of getting additional barrels ready for the next couple years of ELR.
The three biggest differences that I have seen compared to my other traditional barrels has been 1)forgiveness 2)lack of verticals at distance, and 3) the cooling benefit(s). Also, I have a clearer site picture because of the machine pattern cut in the barrel: the machine work breaks up the barrel mirage.
Sending 13 (416 rounds) down the tube in less than 6 minutes really puts John’s machining technologies to the test …. Consistency at great distance requires or demands that any vertical dispersion be limited; very limited. To demonstrate or acknowledge the benefit … after the three record rounds/impacts at 2,874 yds; we had to transition to two additional targets while being on the clock. 2650 yards and a return back to 2874…. The barrel performed again at 2874 yds with three more impacts (1,2 and 3rd round). A structured barrel does perform, and perform well deep in strings of Fire (550 grain bullet/middle 180 grains of powder)
I can’t overstate how much I appreciate John’s friendship, and his engineering mind.
Best of luck and great shooting
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
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What's the diameter on these? Does he do 1.250 straights? I'd like to try one for shits and gigs.
We will finish to a 1.25dia on smaller calibers. All blanks have a preferred starting diameter of 1.5+/-. Smaller diameters down to 1.375 can be processed at increasing risk of failure in processing.
I’d have to measure mine but it is a very large in comparison over all diameter compared to other barrels I have, but, it is noticeably stiffer and lighter…. Shoots better, more often, than any other rifle I own
