Barrel too hot?

[IndianCent]

I have tried to search this topic but was not able to find posts, if I missed, my apologies in advance.
I started to shoot .223 Rem (paper for accuracy only) and wondered when the barrel is too hot. How do you determine what is too hot and what is acceptable?
I am using a Zermatt TL3 with a 26" Shilen with a barrel, 1:9 twist. I currently only use starting loads with CFE223 (23.8 gr) and Hornady 62 gr ELD-VT.
I shoot 10 rds and let it cool off a bit before I shoot 4 to 6 five round groups.
I plan to try my Raytek Autopro next time (used it to check engine temps in my aircooled cars). It will tell me the surface temperature of the barrel. Once I know what that is, I have to decide what is too hot and what is not. Is this a good idea and what is the acceptable temperature range? Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[1911Shootist]

IR readings can change based on material, coatings, surface condition and ambient lighting. Just a word of caution that you probably won’t be getting an accurate number unless the barrel is bead blasted & flat black with the emissitivity set correctly for it.

How much you can shoot will depend on the contour. I usually let them cool when I can’t indefinitely hold my fingers on the barrel (which is usually ~140F for me). They can get much hotter, but that’s an easy place to draw the line with no tools needed.

 

[Cody S]

on a 223 I'm thinking you're safe for 15 to 20 rapid rounds easily. I do 10 rounds quuck on my 6 creed,

 

[3GunNoob]

I also have been looking for a place to talk about heated barrel and it's effects on muzzle velocity. I recently was zeroing by LWRC REPR MK2 308 with NightForce 7-35 ATACR optic and I was going for a tight group at 300 yards. (I have been using 300 yard zeros. Why, because I feel it gives a better zero. I shot a 3 shot group in the first 5 or 6 shots. Took my time and it was a 1" group. So I started breaking down my setup to move over to steel. But before I moved, I lazed the target and it was 292 yards. I should have just stopped and used it. Instead, I went down range and changed it to 300 yards and started over. I wasn't very patient and shot faster without realizing and the group spread way out. I finally gave up and went to steel.

That night I was looking at the targets and checked my Garmin chronograph and saw the standard deviation over 30 FPS and the accurate shot string was 9.8 FPS. I do not feel this is a coincidence and I will post the targets and the Garmin chronograph shot strings.

My main reason for this posting is that I bought the Riflekuhl barrel cooling fan. But more importantly......I need to get the chamber temperature and the reason is that the next round sits in the hot chamber and cooks. The ammo is Federal Gold Medal Matchking 308 168 grain and it runs great in this rifle. I know that spread out pattern was not me. It had to be temperature.

What device is made to get the temperature of the rifle bore and not the surface temp. I need to know what part of the bore and I also want to monitor the chamber temperature between each shot. Am I dreaming or do they make such a device. I have looked at IR and contact temperature devices but can't seem to find the internal temperatures.

Thanks

 

[memilanuk]

I know that spread out pattern was not me. It had to be temperature.

...but a 1" group @ 300yd, from a gas gun (even a really nice one) running factory ammo, was totally believable?

 

[smoothy8500]

and the accurate shot string was 9.8 FPS....
The ammo is Federal Gold Medal Matchking 308 168 grain.

Sheeeet, I'mmm gonna' quit reloading and start buyin' this stuff....

 

[usafa77]

Shoot a 20 round group and report back. You had three shots hat were really close together. Probably sd of the ammo, not barrel temperature

 

[MarshallDodge]

I also have been looking for a place to talk about heated barrel and it's effects on muzzle velocity. I recently was zeroing by LWRC REPR MK2 308 with NightForce 7-35 ATACR optic and I was going for a tight group at 300 yards. (I have been using 300 yard zeros. Why, because I feel it gives a better zero. I shot a 3 shot group in the first 5 or 6 shots. Took my time and it was a 1" group. So I started breaking down my setup to move over to steel. But before I moved, I lazed the target and it was 292 yards. I should have just stopped and used it. Instead, I went down range and changed it to 300 yards and started over. I wasn't very patient and shot faster without realizing and the group spread way out. I finally gave up and went to steel.

That night I was looking at the targets and checked my Garmin chronograph and saw the standard deviation over 30 FPS and the accurate shot string was 9.8 FPS. I do not feel this is a coincidence and I will post the targets and the Garmin chronograph shot strings.

My main reason for this posting is that I bought the Riflekuhl barrel cooling fan. But more importantly......I need to get the chamber temperature and the reason is that the next round sits in the hot chamber and cooks. The ammo is Federal Gold Medal Matchking 308 168 grain and it runs great in this rifle. I know that spread out pattern was not me. It had to be temperature.

What device is made to get the temperature of the rifle bore and not the surface temp. I need to know what part of the bore and I also want to monitor the chamber temperature between each shot. Am I dreaming or do they make such a device. I have looked at IR and contact temperature devices but can't seem to find the internal temperatures.

Thanks

At 300 yards, wind becomes a bigger consideration than 100 yards, especially with a 223.

 

[Taylorbok]

IR readings can change based on material, coatings, surface condition and ambient lighting. Just a word of caution that you probably won’t be getting an accurate number unless the barrel is bead blasted & flat black with the emissitivity set correctly for it.

I had a really hard time trying to do powder temp testing using an IR temp gun. ended up using a couple different thermometers to estimate the temps.

Barrel temps if it doesn't give your hand 3rd degree burns it's fine.



seriously tho with big magnus I try and keep it around 10-15 round strings. smaller less overbore cases I'll run em hotter/ longer. F-class runs over 20 rounds continuous.

 

[memilanuk]

The bigger problem for me - both in F-class, and in load testing - is the heat mirage off the barrel (or brake) becomes a problem around 10rds or so when using higher powered scopes. Having to look through a friggin' fish bowl of mirage off the barrel, before you can even attempt to see the mirage (wind) downrange is *not* conducive to consistently small groups.

A mirage band helps, but a portable fan can help out if you're doing load testing at a square/flat range. Otherwise a barrel cooler between strings is a great idea. F-class John has some good videos on the topic.

 

[Wannashootit]

How do you determine what is too hot and what is acceptable?

Too hot to grab and hold with your hand, is too hot for me.

 

[Emerson0311]

The bigger problem for me - both in F-class, and in load testing - is the heat mirage off the barrel (or brake) becomes a problem around 10rds or so when using higher powered scopes. Having to look through a friggin' fish bowl of mirage off the barrel, before you can even attempt to see the mirage (wind) downrange is *not* conducive to consistently small groups.

A mirage band helps, but a portable fan can help out if you're doing load testing at a square/flat range. Otherwise a barrel cooler between strings is a great idea. F-class John has some good videos on the topic.

I find bringing a room temp rifle out into the cold gives me quite a bit of mirage too.

 

[supercorndogs]

I will shoot a 223 until I run out of ammo or targets.

 

[3GunNoob]

The fist string after cleaning the barrel last 3 shots. I know it’s tight but it’s real. Then I realized it wasn’t 300 yards. I got mad and moved the target to 300 and impatiently started shooting.

 

[3GunNoob]

I tried to post the targets of that day but I got this message.

This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.

I will upgrade my membership so that I’m not invisible LOL. I’m not sure what it means, but I’m going to upgrade my membership. I’ve been told that this is a very good site with a lot of knowledge. I just started 4 months ago getting much deeper into long range shooting. There is so much to learn and I try to remain a student forever.

 

[wind gypsy]

The bigger problem for me - both in F-class, and in load testing - is the heat mirage off the barrel (or brake) becomes a problem around 10rds or so when using higher powered scopes. Having to look through a friggin' fish bowl of mirage off the barrel, before you can even attempt to see the mirage (wind) downrange is *not* conducive to consistently small groups.

A mirage band helps, but a portable fan can help out if you're doing load testing at a square/flat range. Otherwise a barrel cooler between strings is a great idea. F-class John has some good videos on the topic.

I will shoot a 223 until I run out of ammo or targets.

What they said. Shoot until the mirage is worse than you feel like dealing with.

 

[mark5pt56]

I do some redneck shit like a scrap piece of cardboard taped underneath the scope Obj bell for mirage.

 

[Ledzep]

There is no real concrete data on this because there are so many variables at play... This is just my experience/opinion.

In general small stuff like .223 or the ARC/Grendel family I've never seen anything cause groups to open up in 1.20" contour barrels as much as 40 round strings. I never tested more than that.

6.5 Creedmoor I started seeing things open up over 30 rounds occasionally, not always.

PRCs can do strange things after 15-20 rounds. These are all from a fixture so mirage isn't an issue.

Out of the fixture, profiled barrels;
Proof Research Carbon wrapped 6.5 creedmoor barrels are good for ~10 rounnds usually. These are very barrel-by-barrel. Some more than that, but you will start to get walk. Some other brands of CF barrel I've watched walk 3 mils from shot 1 to shot 15... I think they're fine for hunting rifles and for stuff like NRL Hunter but after this current one burns up I'm not using one for a competition rifle again.

Winchester featherweight starts opening up after 3 rounds. Various generations of Remington and Savage button barrels are in the same realm. Some don't care, some care very much after 3-7 rounds.

6 creedmoor vs. 6mm ARC from a rem varmint contour after 20 rounds is night and day. IMO 6cm is a cold-weather match cartridge for stuff like PRS because in the summer you often see guys getting erratic results by the end of the day. Again, not always, but often enough that I started to notice it. 10 rounds of 6cm is HOT to the touch, 10 rounds of ARC is lukewarm.

Too hot to hold is a good rule of thumb but it's very dependent on construction and contour, too. No real good way to get actual bore temp, and it's very hard to get CF wrapped barrels too hot to hold, but the steel is probably scorching.

JME, YMMV, etc.

 

[sloporsche]

AK owners beez like.....when i smell the wood handguards scent its time for a butt break / 300 win mag its usually around 15/20 rounds or my shoulder says its had enough or every one around the range is moving away from me .

 

[mark5pt56]

As always, every barrel will be different, along with the caliber. While not scientific, a .223 should be ok precision wise with a sustained rate of a round every 30 seconds. One would have to measure temp and compare against a target to see the effect. If I'm doing a load test, etc. I try to stay 30-60 seconds or shoot my 5, etc. at a pace to adhere to the fundementals, evaluate, record, etc. By then several minutes have passed and repeat if continuing.
When I was doing the 1000 yard matches with a .300WM or a 6.5CM, 20 minutes for unlimited sighters and 20 for record, I can tell you in the summer NC sun, that barrel was pretty f'ing hot at the end. One had to be mindful of how many sighters were fired for sure.

 

[3GunNoob]

Hey Everyone, thanks for all the info!!
I am not up to snuff on forums yet so I wanted to know if post #14 showed up for all to see. That message I received from the Sniper’shide monitor confused me. I didn’t upgrade my membership to what ever the next level is. It seemed that message meant I can’t post pictures at the rookie membership level I am currently at. Could someone let me know if the 3 target pictures are visible because I was going to put the Garmin velocity data of the bad shot strings.

 

[Modoc]

I can see your pictures.

 

[3GunNoob]

Thanks Modoc