6mm data, bullet length, bullet material, etc etc
It's around 80-90 psi on quickload depending on what you use as a bullet (I used a barnes ttsx just for shit and giggles) and what you use as case capacity.
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Buddies 22 creed blew up…. Any ideas
- Thread starter HOOFER
- Start date
It's around 80-90 psi on quickload depending on what you use as a bullet (I used a barnes ttsx just for shit and giggles) and what you use as case capacity.
I guess I used proficient too loosely.
He has some room for improvement hahah
Shot it in what?
I fireform 22-250 into 22 creed all the time
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Rough QL data:
104% 44.00gr 3910FPS 2105lbs of energry 82993PSI
104% 44.00gr 3910FPS 2105lbs of energry 82993PSI
I need a nap...I don't know where I got 6 Creed from when it clearly says 22 in the thread title.
I'll STFU now...
That should buff out
44 grains Varget underneath a 175 SMK in a 308 case (M118LR Brass) is my go to round, or at least a starting point, for 1,000 yard steel plinking rounds in my 308's, I would think that the same charge in a lower capacity cartridge, smaller diameter bore, albeit a bullet about half the weight would be a very stout load.
If the op is any indication, your suspicions would be correct.
I remember Chad Dixon posting up a rifle where a guy used a fast burn powder vs slow in a .338 Lapua.
Was epic.
Do not remember the complete story.
@LongRifles Inc. - can you expound?
Was epic.
Do not remember the complete story.
@LongRifles Inc. - can you expound?
When you bring dynamite to a firecracker fight. . .
This was a tale of multiple Chargemasters on a bench. We finished the gun, he races back across the state to enjoy a very narrow break in the winter weather and overlooked what powder was loaded in one of his CM's. A brand new rifle he'd saved up for over a year to build. -Gone in a "click".
Bummer deal.
If memory serves me correctly he gassed it up with Varget instead of H1000. It ended about like anyone here could imagine.
Re-posting this @orkan (primalrights) classic, demonstrates how to play the stupid game right, or at least less wrong:
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Now, I don’t shoot a .22 Creedmoor yet but 44gr Varget in a Creedmoor case with a bore that small sounds like a whole bunch to me. In my 6.5 Creedmoors with 130s, 40gr is getting mighty warm…Buddy was doing some load testing.. “very proficient reloader”.
My first thought was a double charge of powder.. or an overage.
He Was shooting 44 grains of Varget which he had shot previously… with no pressure signs.
Bullet hit gong. So I think it rules out an obstruction.
Sheared extractor off bolt and case head separation? Brass failure?
Brass was twice fired copper creek 22 creed brass.
62 grain controlled chaos bullets.
Criterion barrel
Luckily the action contained all the shrapnel and he just got a wake up call and a little fire ball.
Gun had 200 rounds through it.
John
In all fairness, I've seen two DTA's that had to be closed or opened with a 2x4 because of sand at blue steel ranch.
Maybe that was the true cause of this catastrophe. OPs buddy thought he was shooting a 22 creed when he actually chambered a 22 SA... aka 22 Stella Artwat. Or something like that.
That looks classic for a case head separation secondary to either excessive headspace vs. setting the shoulder back after each shot resulting in a bright ring forming (incipient brass failure) just above the base, eventual case failure.
The brass case adds almost nothing to the steel barrels ability to contain thousands of PSI.
You may be correct. I've only seen evidence of other's case failures. One firearm destroyed, thumb amputated secondary to partial barrel obstruction.
That wasn't caused by a case failure. That was something much bigger with the case being collateral damage
Like 85k PSI in regular brass.
I think @brianf may be knowing things about brass designed for high pressures.
Just sayin….
This was a moron reloading. Thats what caused this.
Too much powder, KABOOM.
I think @brianf may be knowing things about brass designed for high pressures.
Just sayin….
This was a moron reloading. Thats what caused this.
Too much powder, KABOOM.
Thanks for that! I about fell out of my chair laughing! Might need to borrow that one in the future.
I did a run in QuickLOAD with 22 creed, 44gr VARGET, 26" barrel, 2.6 COAL, used a Barnes 62gr as that's the only solid I seen in that range. To get the 4150fps case size is ~47gr H2O. So here's the kicker, pressure = speed more or less. To get that speed in those parameters, it's kicking out 103k+ PSI!
Yeah I told him… any factory action he might not be doing so well…
To be fair. Any other brass I think he would of hit “normal” pressure signs and stopped…
I didn’t know alpha brass didn’t show pressure signs either…
I also don’t just keep going…. For the hell of it..
I think he learned
How does alpha brass not show pressure? Is it not brass? Sounds like more internet BS.Yeah I told him… any factory action he might not be doing so well…
To be fair. Any other brass I think he would of hit “normal” pressure signs and stopped…
I didn’t know alpha brass didn’t show pressure signs either…
I also don’t just keep going…. For the hell of it..
I think he learned
Something you could check, if you have the tools, use a dial indicator, an adapter to the case head, (got mine from Mike Bellm's T/C website), a case gauge, a no-go gauge and measure one of the rounds that you haven't fired yet. It could be that the case is shorter than SAAMI mimimum. If this is the case, the first firing will cause lots of stretch in the case. If you then size it down all the way again, it will undergo the same excessive stretch. If the headspace in these cases is too much, you'll get head separation quickly, two firings might get you there. The no-go gauge will tell you where the bolt face is, in relation to any cartridge case. The no-go gauge will tell you where the bolt face is in relation to ANY brass you load. You'll always know the headspace and you can control that, in the sizing step. Assuming your bolt will not close on the no-go gauge, try sizing a case .001" shorter, and so on, until it closes on one. Then you'll know where the bolt face is in relation to any case head, SAAMI max., min., or anywhere else. If you have short cases from the factory, be ready for trouble, maybe even on your first firing. Flattened, cratered, or blown primers are a sure sign. Glad you guys weren't hurt.
It will show it, just later and at higher pressures than softer junk brass. Doesn't mean it isn't still there. You don't just double up and assume all is fine. @orkan has done testing with this exact brass and it is pretty top notch stuff. Pretty sure Hornady wouldn't make it close to the 100K(ish) pressure this is failing at.
You’re taking this out of context. And also not correct either. Barrels will handle pretty much anything you throw at them. The only part that matters with the barrel is if the chamber walls expand enough to allow the brass to oversize and become an extraction problem.
Brass is the pressure vessel. It has to fail before anything else can. If the brass doesn’t fail, the pressure doesn’t damage anything else.
As far as high pressure ammunition, it’s extremely simple to build actions and part out of stronger material. It’s literally just money and time.
Brass is the weak link and no matter how strong your parts are, if the case head blows off, you have problems.
Better cases is the future.
I use 39.5 in my rifle lol. Right chamber though. My other 308 runs 41.5 and both run just under 2600fps.
Also not true. If you use casings and materials able to contain the pressure, it works.
“Over Pressure” is based on SAAMI and/or CIP which was developed for common components generally used by most people. This is what quick load is based on.
Once you change the material holding the pressure, the max pressure possible before failure also changes.
Obviously in this particular situation, the pressure was too much. But max pressure in quick load doesn’t translate to everything.
We need more videos of this guy at that range. If OP can get them, he will have the next YouTube sensation.
I can't wait for his cross caliber event where he shoots .300 BO out of a 5.56.
I don't load 22CM, but if I did, I wouldn't be running .308 size charges of Varget through it.
I can't wait for his cross caliber event where he shoots .300 BO out of a 5.56.
I don't load 22CM, but if I did, I wouldn't be running .308 size charges of Varget through it.
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I blew up a rifle once with a load of my own.
New brass, very carefully loaded with exactly the right amount of power. (I checked the others, all right on) The loading manuals and Quickload showed the load to be hot but not maximum. The gun was salvageable, but the barrel, bolt, and stock were destroyed. I had/have shrapnel in my support hand and shoulder as well as the wall of my house from the case and bolt parts blown out the rear. Fortunately it was/is a DTA SRS-A1, and my face was not directly behind the bolt! I could not figure out why this happened. I checked everything, photographed every part, went over Quickload data and lost my confidence in my loading abilities. Then about a year later I was cleaning out the broken rifle parts, brass and powder from that incident and found the cause of the explosion. The can of powder that I used in those rounds was the right COLOR, but not the right NUMBER!
I could not believe I was stupid enough to do this! However, having found the reason for the mishap I was able to reload again with confidence in my process. And learned a valuable lesson on positive identification of components.
Maybe this can be of some help to others here.
New brass, very carefully loaded with exactly the right amount of power. (I checked the others, all right on) The loading manuals and Quickload showed the load to be hot but not maximum. The gun was salvageable, but the barrel, bolt, and stock were destroyed. I had/have shrapnel in my support hand and shoulder as well as the wall of my house from the case and bolt parts blown out the rear. Fortunately it was/is a DTA SRS-A1, and my face was not directly behind the bolt! I could not figure out why this happened. I checked everything, photographed every part, went over Quickload data and lost my confidence in my loading abilities. Then about a year later I was cleaning out the broken rifle parts, brass and powder from that incident and found the cause of the explosion. The can of powder that I used in those rounds was the right COLOR, but not the right NUMBER!
I could not believe I was stupid enough to do this! However, having found the reason for the mishap I was able to reload again with confidence in my process. And learned a valuable lesson on positive identification of components.
Maybe this can be of some help to others here.
How in the name of all that is holy did you blow up a DT to the point where it damaged it? I couldn't do it, even with a full 338LM case of pistol powder and a 285 hornady jammed into the lands.
A DT was used to test the new Alpha OCD brass, and I filled a 22CM case with H4350 to the top of the neck. Right at 47grs. I then crushed a 75gr ELDM on top, jammed into the lands about 40 thousandths. That 75gr eldm pulled almost 4,000 fps. Ejected the case just fine. No significant damage to the case. I didn't even keep it, because it looked like I could easily load it again. lol
For those without much experience with fast 22cals. ... a 22-243AI can't even do that. Not even close.
Yet just as I always say, the pressure is there... and you can't be trying to convert cartridges into other cartridges. They are what they are. They do what they do.
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So if you shot chambered a barrel so only the neck and shoulder could fit, then somehow locked a bolt behind it and fired, how much pressure could the unsupported case body take? Not much. That's why OOB detonations are always spicy, a cartridge case of any material not fully surrounded by a chamber/bolt can't take shit. Just like the head gasket in your car, on it's own it's worthless, it needs to be sandwiched to take the pressure it does, but the combustion chamber is taking most of it. A cartridge case is a gasket, not a pressure chamber. This is why we can have case head separations and split necks all day and nothing blows up, even the the brass failed to seal the chamber.
The opposite end of this is if you dropped a bullet into the throat, dumped powder in, glued a primer onto the bolt face, closed it and fired. You know, kinda like a muzzle loader works. It wouldn't work right but it wouldn't blow up, because the chamber, not the brass, takes the pressure. The refined version of this is caseless ammunition, so it's not just a theory.
If you have enough to pressure to blow up a gun and the brass does (will) fail in the process, don't blame the brass.
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Academically you're at least partially correct... but what @Hoplite Arms Ammunition is saying is that the barrel isn't the thing to blow up... until it is.
Yeah, I agree, but to keep using pressure analogies, if my truck makes 100psi of boost and I lift the head off of it, it's not the gaskets fault for no longer containing that pressure.
In what actual use situation would what you describe ever be a reality?
Don't forum posters ever get tired of being academically correct in a theoretical situation instead of learning how to advance themselves in this discipline?
Some of you REALLY need to evaluate your goals.
The reality is when a guy has enough pressure to blow up a rifle and people in this thread are talking about brass strength like more or less of it would've created a different end result. I even mentioned a real world kind of rifle/ammo that handles pressure and has no cartridge case.
Or the head gasket thing? Happens all the time.
It’s enough pressure to blow up *that* rifle.
The brass matters when the rifle is strong enough to handle the pressure. Our receivers can handle well over 100k psi repeatedly. But you need cases (not necessarily brass) that can handle that. Otherwise you can’t take advantage of the receiver material.
You took a quote out of context. He didn’t say the brass would have kept that rifle from blowing up.
In your analogy, if your engine parts were able to withstand the pressure, but the gaskets can’t…..then the parts don’t matter.
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Depends on what actually happened.
If the bolt lugs got set back enough, that could let the headspace become excessive which allows the case head to separate.
Shows up to range... Hey guys check out this new load I'm running its a fuckin laser... Stand back its got some kick to it...Similar threads
