Can a Savage be made into a competent tactical gun?

[tylerw02]

Can a Savage be made into a competent tactical gun?

I have shot a 0.748 5 group 5 shot average with a 0.193 best group. But for the bench rest one jagged hole over and over again is a whole other class of shooter and equipment. The fact that I'm a lefty took me to the Savage since it was that or custom action.

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Kudos to you man. You're realistic! Lots of guys would claim that .1xx" to be normal rather than best. Good shooting for a factory rig! You can get lefty 700s but they aren't as common.


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[missed]

I have shot two tactical matches with my 308 and didn't have any gun problems. I placed close to the bottom, the group of shooters were damn good and it was there primary hobby and there job in some cases, I did see where the custom action smoothness would help. I shot a buddies bat action some and that will be my custom action route one of these days. The fluted bolt body on my guns made them considerably smother to run also.

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[bunsen27]

So yours had a custom barrel? How many tactical matches did you shoot your savage in? Was it reliable?

So far we have hunters equating hunting to tac matches. And your experience with accuracy after changing to a custom barrel. Let's put it all in context of this thread.

Who in the thread currently runs a savage in tactical matches? Why?

They aren't cheaper, any more accurate, and parts support isn't as good. Why pick savage other than an emotional connection Savages guys have to their guns? Why aren't the top shooters using them?




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I've run two Savage's 12's for the past 18 months in local Tac matches and never finished lower than 15th. I chose Savage because the price point of the Savage 12 LRP fit my budget and it was one of the few factory available rifles in .260Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor. I can't justify dropping $3k-$5k on a custom rifle. I have other toys to buy like suppressors and SBR's. The LRP can be found for $950, Rifle Basix trigger for $85, Dark Eagle Custom magazine for $90, and add a custom barrel for $350ish if you choose. The bottom rifle is a LRP with a muzzle break added, cerakoted, and a paint job. The top is a 12 Varmint action with a Shilen barrel in a Manners T2. Excluding the scope, paint, and Cerakote work neither rifle cost more than $1.5k. They are plenty accurate and reliable. I've never experienced bolt binding or feeding issues with Dan's magazines. However, the Savage factory mags do tend to suck.

You're projecting with your second question. I wasn't aware of all the Savage haters on the Hide until after I had one, and I personally find it quite amusing. They are just rifles; tools to do a job or fill a role. Some people do get emotionally invested with the "superiority" of inanimate objects, typically when they have invested a lot of money in said inanimate object.

 

[tylerw02]

Finally somebody making a point. Choose the Savage if you're wanting a different caliber in a factory gun. However if you're changing barrels it is a moot point.


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[bunsen27]

Finally somebody making a point. Choose the Savage if you're wanting a different caliber in a factory gun. However if you're changing barrels it is a moot point.


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I don't follow your logic. This thread was never about bone stock Savage rifles. The OP ask: Can a Savage be made into a competent tactical gun? The "made" portion of the original question implies a not out of the box stock rifle. If you're not understanding why I have a Shilen on my Manner's stocked rifle, that is because I just bought the 12 Varmint action NOT a complete second 12 LRP rifle. The Shilen barrel and Manner's stock completed the build. That may not have been crystal clear in my original post.

 

[tylerw02]

Can a Savage be made into a competent tactical gun?

The point of Savages being allegedly *more* accurate than other options out of the box. If you are changing barrels, stocks, etc it's not really a Savage anymore. It's a custom. At that point does it matter what you use? It's an action.

Either way what works for you is what to use. Myself savage isn't what I'll pick. It's like pushing uphill.


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[bunsen27]

The point of Savages being allegedly *more* accurate than other options out of the box. If you are changing barrels, stocks, etc it's not really a Savage anymore. It's a custom. At that point does it matter what you use? It's an action. Why Savage?

Either way what works for you is what to use. Myself savage isn't what I'll pick. It's like pushing uphill.


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I think you need to go back and read D.I.D's post about his 0.25MOA Savage he built in his bathrobe. That wasn't a factory Savage barrel he ordered. So your assumptions and assertions that this thread was ever about factory Savage rifles were incorrect. You got your knickers in a twist over nothing actually.

 

[loudandproud]

Well... Mine is bone stock with exception to the B&C Medalist (also considered a turd around here) and It runs pretty well. Ill slam about 200 rounds a session through it and it will take the abuse reliably.

That being said, it doesn't run like a custom. Not near as smooth. For the money its an excellent rifle though. 3/4 MOA regularly and 3/8 MOA if I get lucky.

The $1800 I save over building a custom bought me a good optic (XRS).

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I wouldn't exactly call shooting from a covered bench on a nice day "abuse". That's casual plinking.

 

[rrflyer]

From your pictures it doesn't look like its being used in a match environment.......

Get off the bench and start shooting in the dirt, wind, and rain.


To build a savage vs a remington your honestly looking at a savings of a few hundred dollars....that's less than the cost of entry fees and ammo for a single preision rifle match.....

 

[bflee]

I dont shoot tactical matches but I do shoot against alot of guys with 700's at a local range. I know alot of them well. Most of us hunt with the same gun we target shoot with. I have an out of the box 12LRP in 6.5CM and it has alot of them scrambling right now because they cant beat it even with some of them costing twice as much. I know this isnt a tactical match, but it sure makes me feel good! If I were going to Camp Perry next year I would probably look into the customs, but it would have to shoot pretty good to make me put down the LRP. It doesnt need to be customized. I put a scope and a bipod on it and its kicking their butts.



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[loudandproud]

Its the only pics I had. The gun has been run hard in local matches (Didnt do great but it wasnt the rifles fault)..like I said... its not the smoothest thing in the world, but it gets er done. I dont think anyone here is saying a savage is as good as a custom, they are just a good bang for the buck all purpose rifle

 

[tylerw02]

I think you need to go back and read D.I.D's post about his 0.25MOA Savage he built in his bathrobe. That wasn't a factory Savage barrel he ordered. So your assumptions and assertions that this thread was ever about factory Savage rifles were incorrect. You got your knickers in a twist over nothing actually.

Nobody had knickers bound. There are posts about "out of the box" accuracy being so good and references to "savages vs customs" when the Savage with a new stock and barrel IS a custom as much as a Remington with a new stock and barrel.

At that point it's action vs action. Everybody tends to agree Rem actions are smoother, more tolerant to the elements, have more trigger choices and a better factory trigger in the old 700. Why, if you're changing everything but the action, savage? You can make a 120 year old Mauser shoot.

So you can use a barrel nut instead of using a barrel vice at home? Remage conversion? You can change out bolt faces? Who does that with a match rifle anyway?

Why do the best choose Remington and their clone?

I personally use AIs. More durable, reliable, and easy as hell to change barrels should I choose to. But that's irrelevant.

This thread was doomed from the get go because nobody answered the question from the get go. Perhaps I'm contributing to the thread drift but the countless posts about how accurate people's custom barrels on a savage action when they shoot leisurely against their friends isn't addressing things much.


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[GONE BAD]

Some of you guys are down right delusional. I made a challenge for the half MOA box stock savage guys to provide a 5x5 on a single sheet from a single range session that never has been met.

The reality is equipment doesn't win. Shooters do. I haven't ever seen a Savage shooter win, but it can and does happen once in a while. The reality is that Rem, Win, Savage...similar quality at a similar price. Sometimes it seems more value on tikka and Howa anymore.

Truth is a 1 MOA rifle is good enough for most PRS style matches if you can do that from all positions.

What matters more is a rifle that cycles cleanly and smooth and always works. Nothing throws you off your game than a gun that doesn't function. And don't kid yourself, you are the weakest link.

What's in the winners circle? In PRS a lot if the time it's a sponsored shooter running a custom from the name on their shirt.

The reality is the best guys can win with a stock Rem with a DBM added. They are that good.


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Tyler I think I'll do this. Anyway is it five 5 shot groups that are all <.5 or average < .5? Are you saying @ 100 yds? I have four 3 shot groups shot consecutively that are in the .3's. I know, I know, that doesn't count. I'll post results. This is a bone stock Savage. In the end I might be like the rest but we'll see. Sounds like fun. Savage did build me an excellent stick!

 

[tylerw02]

Five of them with five rounds each on a single sheet of paper with a factory rifle.

Elfster had a similar challenge asking for six groups with any rifle. I'm being easy asking for five with a factory Savage.


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[MarinePMI]

And while everyone argues the endless debate of Savage versus Remington...I'm loading 6.5 Creedmoor ammo for the next match. Seems time better spent (IMHO) in preparing the gear, and working to make myself better...more so than arguing about the tool. I like seeing and hearing the steel rock and ring at 900yds...

 

[GONE BAD]

Five of them with five rounds each on a single sheet of paper with a factory rifle.

Elfster had a similar challenge asking for six groups with any rifle. I'm being easy asking for five with a factory Savage.


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Well I guess you just closed the deal. I don't shoot (factory) ammo. Now I see why there has been no offers.

Opps! I sorry. Its early and I misread your reply. I thought I read factory ammo. I'm back in!

 

[tylerw02]

Can a Savage be made into a competent tactical gun?

Factory rifle not factory ammo. Use whatever ammo you'd like. The challenge has been posted because of the comments of all the 1/4 MOA out of the box Savage claims.


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[GONE BAD]

Well a lot of people say a lot of things on here . It's easy to say you have a 1/4" rifle on here no matter what the make or builder. I'm just doing this cause it sounds like fun and I want to see for myself. It won't end any debates on here either way. .3's are close to .25's but also close to .5's! Anyway I'll get back with you on this. Might throw in a extra group, we'll see.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Factory rifle not factory ammo. Use whatever ammo you'd like. The challenge has been posted because of the comments of all the 1/4 MOA out of the box Savage claims.

Like you, I highly doubt there are many (if any) factory Savages capable of a 1/4" 5x5.

Trouble is, there are fewer SHOOTERS than there are factory Savages capable of the same.

The 5x5 is a better test of marksmanship than it is rifle capability.

 

[tylerw02]

But we read about them all the time on the forum!

Closest thing I've had to doing a .25 MOA 5x5 was two groups in the .1s, one in the .2s an one in the .5s. It just isn't as easy as people think. People throw it around like its common.


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[Greg Langelius *]

I own Remingtons, Savages, Rugers, and a Mossberg MVP. I like them all pretty much the same.

My only custom rifle started out as a factory Savage 10FP .260 back in 2001. The triggers on the old Savages were not good for precision shooting, and were nearly impossible to adjust to a reasonable match gun pull weight, so I have a Sharpshooter Supply trigger from back then, adjusted down to about 1 1/2lb. The 2001 Savage plastic stocks were never suitable for bipod shooting, so it is pillar bedded into a McMillan A3 Tactical stock, also from 2001. It shot in the first SOA match at Whittington in 2002, along with another pair of nearly identical rifles. I was in way over my head in that crowd, but still managed a 197/200 at 1000yd on the last day. A week before, the longest distance I had ever shot was 300yd.

Next, the rifle had a new barrel added, an L-W Stainless, 28" 1:8", pre-chambered for easy assembly as a SAAMI .260 Rem. This rifle competed at Bodines for several years in F Open Class 1000yd competition. Never let me down as much as I let it down; again, I am not a world class shooter.

When Bodines discontinued High Power F Class and N/M course shooting, the rifle had a hardscrabbled military M-14 overrun barrel blank chambered in .30BR, and has continued to this day shooting club matches at 250yd. It shoots to the limits of my ability, and probably a bunch better in better hands.

This Savage has never let me down.

My other Savage .260 is a modern 10 Predator Hunter Max 1, with a factory 24" 1:8" light bull barrel. It's a very likeable rifle, and I wish I had more time to shoot it more seriously.

Yes, the Savages have changed several times since 2001. But every one of those changes was an improvement. We got detachable mags, a very good and very safe trigger, and a much better stock in the bargains. The latest Savage product line is varied enough that somewhere in a very broad market, buyers are going to find something they like well enough that modifications are no longer necessary. They may be a reason why some gunsmiths shun them, they do not need much work. I have shot the Savage .308 F T/R rifle, and that baby is a hummer.

I also own a 10FCM Scout 7.62x39. It's a real fun rifle, and does double duty as a C/F Trainer for my Grandkids. Honestly, I had not expected as good performance from ComBloc MilSurp and Russian sporting steel cased ammo. 110gr V-Max handloads are an education.

Do they win? Naaah. But they don't lose dead last either, and they might/could be winners if I was the kind of shooter they deserve.

I feel the same way about my M70, M700's, M77's, and my MVP. I think less about comparisons than I do about the word 'adequate'. Lately, it's become my byword where rifles and shooting are concerned.

I know who I am and what I can do, and none of my rifles are holding me back. Life's too short to go chasing off over the horizon demanding perfection.

Greg

 

[bflee]

I have a Savage 12 LRP that cost me $950 bucks. I put a Vortex 6-24x50 FFPm scope on it and it is at least a 1/2 MOA rifle. I dont use a lead sled or any holding device and I can shoot 1/2" groups easily. Someone with more BR and reloading experience could probably beat my groups easily. I think the target accutrigger is great but I have never shot any other target triggers. If I could go oit and get another action that would have competed "out of box" I would have looked at it to compare, but I found nothing. Several friends and coworkers have spent twice as much on their 700's and they cant do anything with the LRP. I am definitely the weak link here because I had never shot past 400 before I got it and i can hit 2 liter bottles out to 600 now with very little problem. I am looking forward to going farther when I find a longer field.


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[HodgdonExtreme]

I have a Savage 12 LRP that cost me $950 bucks. I put a Vortex 6-24x50 FFPm scope on it and it is at least a 1/2 MOA rifle. I dont use a lead sled or any holding device and I can shoot 1/2" groups easily. Someone with more BR and reloading experience could probably beat my groups easily. I think the target accutrigger is great but I have never shot any other target triggers. If I could go oit and get another action that would have competed "out of box" I would have looked at it to compare, but I found nothing. Several friends and coworkers have spent twice as much on their 700's and they cant do anything with the LRP. I am definitely the weak link here because I had never shot past 400 before I got it and i can hit 2 liter bottles out to 600 now with very little problem. I am looking forward to going farther when I find a longer field.


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Congratulations!

Next, hump it out into the field, in the rain and mud, or blowing dust, and put a couple hundred rounds through it while on the clock and then report back to us on it's incredible reliability.

 

[bflee]

Ok


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[bflee]

I dont competition shoot and I hunt from box stands. I dont have 4000 to spend on a rifle you like. I can shoot MOA with the rifle I have. That being said I dont baby my rifles but I do take care of them. I think I will be ok because when I do go shoot I am off the clock.
I will be happy to report on how it works over the years.
What kind of setup do you have Hodgton Extreme? I was just wondering. I sense a little sarcasm in your post.


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[HodgdonExtreme]

[MENTION=94006]bflee[/MENTION]

There was some sarcasm, but I apologize if I came off as a dick. I agree the Savage 12LRP is a great setup for a lot of people. For under $1000 you can't touch it! I've in fact recommended them to several friends getting started. From the ones I've personally seen, I 100% believe it when somebody such as yourself says they get consistent 1/2 moa from it.

However, this thread in particular is focused more on heavy rigorous field use - and if a Savage is up to it. I personally have my doubts.

 

[bflee]

I understand there are alot better actions out there, but for the money I dont know what will beat it. I know you are talking from experience and I respect your input.
There are alot of guys out there looking for something like the LRP though. I dont shoot comp, I dont hunt much in the rain, I just shoot against my friends in a big field and coyote, deer, and hog hunt from a box stand a long ways off. I am not going to carry the LRP through many fields period! It weighs 15 pounds. With the accuracy I have with this setup I can sit in the truck at one end of a field and shoot game T the other without disturbing them or lugging a rifle. I love that. I grew up with a browning A-bolt 30-06 that I loved because it was light, and it brought alot of meat home. There is no way you could make thT rifle shoot accurate past 350 yards. I never shot but 2 or three past 100. I have just been really shocked by the accuracy of this gun and have just been exposed to the LR bug. I look forward to going oit every weekend and pushing just a little further. Thanks for all the input. I need all the help I can get!


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[oltmann]

I've been shooting a Savage stagger feed, pre accutrigger for the last 12 years or so. Few hundred rounds a year for the first couple of years. Ramping up over time, several thousand a year for the last couple of years. I would estimate 7-8k rounds over the years. At least 80% of those shots in the field, I don't practice at the range much.

I shoot every match here in the PNW that I can get to. This old, fragile, Savage has put a lot of high dollar rigs to shame over the years. I normally finish in the top 25%, regularly in the top 10%.

Couple of years back the ejection was starting to get a little weak, so I replaced the ejector spring. That's it.

It has seen upgrades over the years, but those are just rewards for good behavior. B&C medalist stock, inlet done by CDI for his bottom metal and cut for AW mags about 4 years ago. Timney trigger a few years back. Upgraded to the PTG bolt body and bolt head last year.

After all these years, I'm going to try a custom action soon. I hope it's an upgrade.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

We fucking get it, savages sometimes are damn accurate out of the box and with a few parts all of them are accurate. BUT, the OP is not asking about accuracy, he owns one and probably knows it's accurate. The questions at hand has to do with reliability, get that.

Savages simply are not very reliable. You can fool yourself all you want and ignore the matter by going back to accuracy but at the end of the day they don't have what it takes to be reliable in field conditions.

 

[bflee]

I was wondering if any of you with the custom actions and triggers had tried the target accutrigger? I have never shot anything nicer and I was just wondering how they compared. I know alot of you have said the trigger is a weak point. I thought this trigger was great. Its better than any other rifle I have for sure, but I own alot of deer guns, not competition guns.


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[redneckbmxer24]

The trigger being the weak link has nothing to do with its feel. Sure it feels ok but once again its not reliable, it has problems. A Jewell trigger feels great as well but in the field it's not reliable.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

The trigger being the weak link has nothing to do with its feel. Sure it feels ok but once again its not reliable, it has problems. A Jewell trigger feels great as well but in the field it's not reliable.

Woulda "liked" this post but that feature doesn't seem to be available in this thread.

As far as factory guns go, love the release of the accutrigger. Crispy and clean with no over travel. A huge improvement over the old style Savage/Stevens trigger. But it's still a bandaid for shitty overall design and execution, not reliable in field conditions.

 

[tylerw02]

I have a Savage 12 LRP that cost me $950 bucks. I put a Vortex 6-24x50 FFPm scope on it and it is at least a 1/2 MOA rifle. I dont use a lead sled or any holding device and I can shoot 1/2" groups easily.


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Please post a single target with five groups of five rounds not with a single group over half MOA.


I keep hearing the claim made of half MOA savages, but still haven't seen one.

You could be the first.


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[HodgdonExtreme]

Please post a single target with five groups of five rounds not with a single group over half MOA.


I keep hearing the claim made of half MOA savages, but still haven't seen one.

You could be the first.


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Shit! Loosening the standard from 1/4 to 1/2?? I think my old 10FP coulda done a 1/2" 5x5, or at least come close enough to receive an honorable mention. Alas, that barrel is long gone so I'll never get to try.

Still, a friends 12LRP in 6.5 oughtta be able to do it, it shoots pretty well.

Tyler, somebodys gonna make you eat your words on the 1/2" challenge!

 

[tylerw02]

He made the claim, asking him to prove it. He didn't say 1/4 MOA. We all know anybody that says that theirs will won't ever do it.

I just like how everybody responds about this thread talks about how accurate their savage is and hasn't ever shot a match. Makes a lot of sense to listen to them, right?


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[bflee]

I dont have to shoot competition to be able to shoot. My "range" is fifty yards outside my back door. I get as much practice as I need. Its only 200 yards at the house and I have to ride 3 miles to get to my 550 yard field. I have two young kids and I am in charge of the heating and air at our local hospital, so I dont get to travel alot. I still know what 1/2" is. I didnt claim to have a 1/4" rifle because I cant shoot it. I can send you a few targets if you want to see them. I will pull those and shoot you a few more if you want. I plan to shoot a couple hundred rounds this weekend. I dont claim to a great shooter, but at my limited range I practice at now you wouldnt blow me away either!


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[bflee]

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums
/a617/bflee1/2013-02-0195165622_zps245faa03.jpg

This is the only one I have a picture of because it was my best. Before you jump up and start screaming there are not five groups of five up there, I am aware of that. This is just an example of what it can do. I will have to shoot five groups on a piece of paper. I have only had the rifle a little while and I never shot alot of groups on one piece of paper.
The red circle is a traced quarter. The hole is five shots. I thought it was pretty decent but I am probably wrong because I dont shoot matches.


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[bflee]

Dont know why this pic wont post. Maybe this will work.


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[tylerw02]

I didn't say you have to shoot competition to be able to shoot. Take a chill pill.

But, to answer OP's question whether or not a Savage makes a good tactical competition rifle, it's going to take somebody with that experience to answer. It I told you my Buick is an awesome racecar, would you expect me to have raced?


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[bflee]

I would have to see pictures of that Buick!


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[rrflyer]

Dont know why this pic wont post. Maybe this will work.


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You missed

 

[MoBoost]

Obviously it's impossible to build a competent tactical gun out of Savage - real world experience of those who did it is heavily outweighed by the knowledge of internet commandos.

Properly adjusted Accutrigger is very reliable, repeatable and the fastest (locktime) trigger on the market. Some people would rather spend $250 than spend 10 seconds using their brain.

It's honestly very simple - you HAVE to have pressure on trigger return spring and you HAVE to locktite it for hard use. The center blade is a FAIL-SAFE feature; if it engages - you don't have properly adjusted trigger. It is not a very hard concept to grasp.

Sear drops on accu-blade = bad adjustment on the trigger.

It's not a secret, there is no voodoo, the gun is not a POS, you don't have to send it back to Savage - the darn gun comes with the adjustment tool for pete's sake, and the manual explains how to do it.

 

[BoilerUP]

It I told you my Buick is an awesome racecar, would you expect me to have raced?

Depends on the type of Buick and the type of racing we're discussing- a Grand National is a whole 'nother animal from a Verano and drag racing is way different than SCCA.

 

[MoBoost]

As far as factory guns go, love the release of the accutrigger. Crispy and clean with no over travel. A huge improvement over the old style Savage/Stevens trigger. But it's still a bandaid for shitty overall design and execution, not reliable in field conditions.

You do realize they didn't change anything but the type of return spring (went from leaf to coil) - everything else is same. As a matter of fact the old trigger had more adjustment - sear engagement and independent overtravel. Accutrigger just made the adjustments idiot-proof (doesn't go "bang" with improper adjustments) - I guess, you could say it's a "huge improvement" if you like to behave like an idiot.

 

[HOGTOOTH5R]

Shit! Loosening the standard from 1/4 to 1/2?? I think my old 10FP coulda done a 1/2" 5x5, or at least come close enough to receive an honorable mention. Alas, that barrel is long gone so I'll never get to try.

Still, a friends 12LRP in 6.5 oughtta be able to do it, it shoots pretty well.

Tyler, somebodys gonna make you eat your words on the 1/2" challenge!

Even if someone does show up with a 5x5 full of 1/2" moa holes then what? What if we can't proof it was at 100 yards??? There's no win in this unless its shot in a video with two cameras and a bunch of mutual witnesses to testify. Lol

 

[mrbungle]

i am trying to turn my 308 savy into a competition rifle. right now it is a my practice rifle.

running a factory barrel,trigger and action. i am going with a new trigger. it is messing up my groups. i have a bighorn/beanland 6.5 x 47 lapua rifle and i can shoot bugholes with it. i am a middle of the pack shooter. not great but don't completely suck either.

here is my rig. FLCP-k 308 with mcrees folder stock, spuhr mount , stiener 4x16 scope.

here is my latter testing groups with it. i need a new trigger. 5 shots each target, the stickers are 1 inch. except for the flyers i think this will be a 1/2 moa rifle.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

You do realize they didn't change anything but the type of return spring (went from leaf to coil) - everything else is same. As a matter of fact the old trigger had more adjustment - sear engagement and independent overtravel. Accutrigger just made the adjustments idiot-proof (doesn't go "bang" with improper adjustments) - I guess, you could say it's a "huge improvement" if you like to behave like an idiot.

Ugh.

To those who get it, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't, none is possible.

Good day, sir.

 

[MoBoost]

Ugh.

To those who get it, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't, none is possible.

Good day, sir.

You got called out on technical bullshit and ignorance - your come-back is quoting an early 20th century magician? BTW, in original context the quote meant that people would rather be delusional than reasonable ... so it might be very well fitting.

 

[mrbungle]

well, i am going with a timney trigger.


i do not like the accu trigger, but my other rifle with a timney shoots great.