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CCW Zero Distance
- Thread starter Jigstick
- Start date
Assume we're talking an RMR or similar, ie sightbore distance about 0.85", and using 147 9mm's for reference
On most pistols a 25 yard zero will leave you 1" low at 50 and about 7-9" low at 100.
A 50 yard zero (the same as a 11 yard zero with 9/147's), will leave you with a POI above your POA in the 25-35 yard range, which might not be expected.
A 7 yard zero would put you above POA by up to 2" from the 15-70 yard range.
On most pistols a 25 yard zero will leave you 1" low at 50 and about 7-9" low at 100.
A 50 yard zero (the same as a 11 yard zero with 9/147's), will leave you with a POI above your POA in the 25-35 yard range, which might not be expected.
A 7 yard zero would put you above POA by up to 2" from the 15-70 yard range.
Most engagements occur inside 7 yards. In an actual defense use you won’t even notice your sights. Practice coming up from the ready position and putting rounds on target without the use of sights. In our LE training for close range they taped our sights. Honestly I never noticed the sights either way
If your house is way larger than my poor ass then it may become more of a factor
If your house is way larger than my poor ass then it may become more of a factor
Yeah, do that for confirmation after about 10,000 reps of using the sights. I agree, with a good index and everything right you will be able to put rounds on target pretty accurately without the sights. Doing this before the right number of reps to establish the muscle memory and kinesthetic feedback will be an exercise in failure. When everything isn't right and your body position / index is fucked, revert to the sights, they will not lie.
I mentioned the dangers of a very close or very far (same thing) zero with RMR's because of the unintended consequences of rounds going too high, in some cases as close at 15 yards.
Let me tell a story. About a decade ago, some buddies and I would put on yearly 3Gun matches for LE ONLY, sponsored by Point Blank body armor. All the guys putting this match on were regular non-LE guys who shot 3Gun all the time. A typical rifle stage (or rifle part of a stage) would have largish steel plates to hit in the 80-250 yard range and a series of barricades, etc, to shoot them from. We witnessed a substantial minority of the shooters whiff rounds OVER the 100 yard targets by FEET. When asked what their zero was, the answer was like 5 yards because, quote, "they were entry guns." Note that at closer range they still had mechanical offset, but the angle of the sights required to get a 5 yard zero was so much that at even 50 yards they'd be like a foot and a half high already, just getting worse with more distance.
I mentioned the dangers of a very close or very far (same thing) zero with RMR's because of the unintended consequences of rounds going too high, in some cases as close at 15 yards.
Let me tell a story. About a decade ago, some buddies and I would put on yearly 3Gun matches for LE ONLY, sponsored by Point Blank body armor. All the guys putting this match on were regular non-LE guys who shot 3Gun all the time. A typical rifle stage (or rifle part of a stage) would have largish steel plates to hit in the 80-250 yard range and a series of barricades, etc, to shoot them from. We witnessed a substantial minority of the shooters whiff rounds OVER the 100 yard targets by FEET. When asked what their zero was, the answer was like 5 yards because, quote, "they were entry guns." Note that at closer range they still had mechanical offset, but the angle of the sights required to get a 5 yard zero was so much that at even 50 yards they'd be like a foot and a half high already, just getting worse with more distance.
It's a fucking pistol. Zero it at 10 yards and don't give it a second thought.
"but muh offset at 5 yards" It's a fucking pistol. It doesn't matter.
"But muh drop at 25 yards". Hold a little higher.
"but muh offset at 5 yards" It's a fucking pistol. It doesn't matter.
"But muh drop at 25 yards". Hold a little higher.
Is this something you've had actual experience with or are you just repeating internet fudd bullshit.
I've never been in a gunfight but I can guarantee you I see my sights (irons before, red dot now) on every single shot on every stage no matter how fast I'm going.
Depends on your sight height.
Ive seen this posted online.
Just spend some time yourself testing a couple zeros for your specific set up. Do 3 rd groups from 3-4 zero distances of your choice.
Ive seen this posted online.
Just spend some time yourself testing a couple zeros for your specific set up. Do 3 rd groups from 3-4 zero distances of your choice.
@308pirate
This explains it well. Yes sims are great training.
I’m not saying don’t have or don’t use sights. But when the adrenaline cranks up and someone is in your face you won’t use the sights. You won’t even notice they’re there.
I’m referring to very close encounters. As in inside a few yards which is typical of many self defense situations. Further away then yes sights will be a bigger factor. But instinct still cuts down response time
Some training inside 3 yards we would draw and put rounds center mass from just above the holster. Or come to a front ready and fire from almost touching our chest. Less chance bad guy can reach out and grab the gun having it that close to your body vs punching out with your arms to look at sighs
If your target shooting then train and shoot whatever method helps you score more hits/points.
Not every method works for everyone
Also keep in mind I’m not talking about a gunfight. I’m talking intruder breaks in and you meet them in the hallway or when they round the corner to your bedroom as that is what the OP was referring to. Much different type of training and scenarios then stopping an active shooter or responding to a longer distance threat that you would hang back for or negotiate with
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All my serious use handguns have optics on them. They work best when focusing on the target.
I was in the Navy. My job did not involve the use of firearms (like the overwhelming majority of military personnel) and initial firearms training in the 80s was a joke.
Yeah most occur inside of 7yrds, bring your front dot to target “point and click”
One reason I really like the XS sights
CCW someone at 25yrds and chances are you going to jail (unless you’re a Clinton or biden or something)
One reason I really like the XS sights
CCW someone at 25yrds and chances are you going to jail (unless you’re a Clinton or biden or something)
That would be interesting. What do you mean by technique? Shooting technique? Or tactics?
I don't see shooting technique changing much at all. Shooting is shooting and tactics are tactics. One thing that sport shooting doesn't teach or incorporate is tactics, nor should it. IDPA's claim is a joke.
Sims are more than just the shooting portion so it would be interesting. Especially when the same “target” goes from friendly to killing you in seconds. Adrenaline and instant decision making coming into play. With no real way to prep for that “stage” as you don’t know if you actually will shoot when starting it
I remember when the reporters who Monday morning quarterback everything went through some sims. Pretty certain they all died or killed somebody they shouldn’t have
No different than a bow shooter who can hit a life saver candy but misses a deer with the same setup
Anyone who can should spend a hour or so in the meggs (sp?) simulator, VERY worth while.
I practice at 25 yds and 100 yds more for the challenge than the practical application. That's what steel is for! lol
But if I was taking fire in a parking lot from 100yds away and had nowhere to run and hide to - having a little bit of practice at that range might prove useful. Maybe.
I used to compete in local speed steel and falling plate matches, but been too busy the last couple years. Mine's zero'd at 10 yards (iron sights).
With 230 grain HPs at 830 fps, it's:
1/4" low at 5 yards,
dead on at 10 yards,
.1/8" high at 15 yards,
.1/8" high at 20 yards,
dead on at 25 yards,
2.5" low at 50 yards,
1.5 feet low at 100 yards
Once you develop a feel for your drops, you can consistently hit small targets anywhere from 1 to 100 yards. If you shoot several different handguns and/or ammo, it's a lot harder to develop that kind of proficiency with each gun/ammo combo.
Incidentally, I bought the best handgun I could afford (Wilson 1911) and use it for everything (EDC, HD, competition, hunting backup gun, homestead pest control). I believe this increases proficiency by avoiding dilution (the little differences in function, ergonomics, and recoil from one platform to the next translates into multiple sets of slightly different muscle memories and different drops to memorize).
With 230 grain HPs at 830 fps, it's:
1/4" low at 5 yards,
dead on at 10 yards,
.1/8" high at 15 yards,
.1/8" high at 20 yards,
dead on at 25 yards,
2.5" low at 50 yards,
1.5 feet low at 100 yards
Once you develop a feel for your drops, you can consistently hit small targets anywhere from 1 to 100 yards. If you shoot several different handguns and/or ammo, it's a lot harder to develop that kind of proficiency with each gun/ammo combo.
Incidentally, I bought the best handgun I could afford (Wilson 1911) and use it for everything (EDC, HD, competition, hunting backup gun, homestead pest control). I believe this increases proficiency by avoiding dilution (the little differences in function, ergonomics, and recoil from one platform to the next translates into multiple sets of slightly different muscle memories and different drops to memorize).
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Some good stuff above…and not.
There are really good arguments for zeroing pistol MRDS at 10 (Scott Jedlinski) or maybe 15 yards (SIG Academy?) or 8.78 meters or whatever someone special (/sarcasm) says. Such as:
The trajectory (as noted above) is most realistic for pistol engagement distances and all are pretty darn close to a 25 yard zero. But if you can do a real 25 yard and it’s for yourself, rock on!
Most / many regular LE have trouble keeping them all in an 8” circle even at that distance, much less hitting the whole silhouette at 25…. Can you even keep them all in a 1 or 2” circle at 10 yards (or even a paper plate at 15) to really define a zero? Until then, all moot discussion, as you can’t even zero the shooter, much less the sights.
Walking 10 yards to score, tape, zero is much less admin time wasted, and easily achieved on almost any range.
And yes, I have the training, experience, and sim scars (with iron sights seen), to back up my words.
There are really good arguments for zeroing pistol MRDS at 10 (Scott Jedlinski) or maybe 15 yards (SIG Academy?) or 8.78 meters or whatever someone special (/sarcasm) says. Such as:
The trajectory (as noted above) is most realistic for pistol engagement distances and all are pretty darn close to a 25 yard zero. But if you can do a real 25 yard and it’s for yourself, rock on!
Most / many regular LE have trouble keeping them all in an 8” circle even at that distance, much less hitting the whole silhouette at 25…. Can you even keep them all in a 1 or 2” circle at 10 yards (or even a paper plate at 15) to really define a zero? Until then, all moot discussion, as you can’t even zero the shooter, much less the sights.
Walking 10 yards to score, tape, zero is much less admin time wasted, and easily achieved on almost any range.
And yes, I have the training, experience, and sim scars (with iron sights seen), to back up my words.
Old, but I'd imagine the basic dynamics of the gunfight have not changed since the days of SA revolvers, only the equipment. The basic choice has always been "spray and pray," or take the time to aim.
WYATT EARP ON SHOOTING VS. GUNFIGHTING
Interview taken from “Wyatt Earp: Frontier Marshall” by Stuart N. Lake
“I was a fair hand with pistol, rifle, or shotgun, but I learned more about gunfighting from Tom Speer’s cronies during the summer of ’71 than I had dreamed was in the book.
Those old-timers took their gunplay seriously, which was natural under the conditions in which they lived. Shooting, to them, was considerably more than aiming at a mark and pulling a trigger.
Models of weapons, methods of wearing them, means of getting them into action and operating them, all to the one end of combining high speed with absolute accuracy, contributed to the frontiersman’s shooting skill. The sought-after degree of proficiency was that which could turn to most effective account the split-second between life and death.
Hours upon hours of practice, and wide experience in actualities supported their arguments over style.The most important lesson I learned from those proficient gunfighters was the winner of a gunplay usually was the man who took his time.
Practicing the basic draw from your preferred, comfortable, long term holster is they key here. And dry firing with an unloaded gun at a small target.
The second was that, if I hoped to live long on the frontier, I would shun flashy trick-shooting—grandstand play—as I would poison.When I say that I learned to take my time in a gunfight, I do not wish to be misunderstood, for the time to be taken was only that split fraction of a second that means the difference between deadly accuracy with a sixgun and a miss. It is hard to make this clear to a man who has never been in a gunfight. Perhaps I can best describe such time taking as going into action with the greatest speed of which a man’s muscles are capable, but mentally unflustered by an urge to hurry or the need for complicated nervous and muscular actions which trick-shooting involves.
Mentally deliberate, but muscularly faster than thought, is what I mean.In all my life as a frontier police officer, I did not know a really proficient gunfighter who had anything but contempt for the gun-fanner, or the man who literally shot from the hip. In later years I read a great deal about this type of gunplay, supposedly employed by men noted for skill with a forty-five. From personal experience and numerous six-gun battles which I witnessed, I can only support the opinion advanced by the men who gave me my most valuable instruction in fast and accurate shooting, which was that the gun-fanner and hip-shooter stood small chance to live against a man who, as old Jack Gallagher always put it, took his time and pulled the trigger once.
I’ve worked with and talked to enough (CONUS LE) who most definitely used their sights to great effect. One almost could count the striations on it. I’ve also seen and talked to those who didn’t “remember” or couldn’t say. Their performance reflected it.
Here’s the thing. If you really train to use them, you probably will. If you train not to use them, “because they aren’t needed”, then you almost certainly will not. And in order to hit the required target zone to stop fights (about the size of your fist or an index card), even at close range and when things are ‘dynamic’, you probably would do much better using some appropriate sighting system than merely “pointing”.
If you don’t believe me, look up Tom Givens / Rangemaster training. He’s trained a whole lot of regular citizen types against criminal assault. He distills out three needed skills to prevail: efficient presentation of the handgun, movement out of the kill zone or to cover, and two handed / “aimed” fire. His students who did that have an incredible success ratio.
Here’s the thing. If you really train to use them, you probably will. If you train not to use them, “because they aren’t needed”, then you almost certainly will not. And in order to hit the required target zone to stop fights (about the size of your fist or an index card), even at close range and when things are ‘dynamic’, you probably would do much better using some appropriate sighting system than merely “pointing”.
If you don’t believe me, look up Tom Givens / Rangemaster training. He’s trained a whole lot of regular citizen types against criminal assault. He distills out three needed skills to prevail: efficient presentation of the handgun, movement out of the kill zone or to cover, and two handed / “aimed” fire. His students who did that have an incredible success ratio.
Plus qualified immunity.
Citizens are held to waaaaaay higher of a standard, plus even if they shoot 100% justified, there’s a significant chance the police will kill them or destroy their life when they arrive on scene
Thank you. That's what I was poorly trying to get across.
The more you do something, the more subconscious the execution of it becomes. The more subconscious the execution becomes, the more likely is that execution will be done correctly when the conscious is occupied with other things.
Those who make fun of action shooting sports probably don't have any idea of how much skill with a handgun it takes to be even mildly competitive. That effort into subconscious competence has to carry over to a fight. Too much sports/performance science to argue otherwise.
I am well aware of the dynamics and distinctions. But I was attempting to refute the specious and oft repeated assertion that you won’t need or have time to use your sights in a gunfight. Maybe, maybe not. But I sure know it can be done and done well.
And if you need to apply this specifically to regular good guy ccw, then check with perhaps one of the best CCW instructors in the nation with a proven curriculum and track record, Tom Givens.
But you all do what works great for you. I’m not dogmatic about it, just can’t abide hearing “can’ts”.
But back to the OP, if you can zero your MRDS equipped pistol to keep them all on a 1” paster at 10 yards or in the X / 10 ring of a B8 at 25, AND CAN SHOOT THE DIFFERENCE IN REAL LIFE, then you should go work on other skills necessary to keep you alive and well in this world. Eat healthy, get in shape, take first aid, learn to grow your own food, etc.
During various force-on-force training sessions I've done and witnessed, in AARs where everyone missed and didn't land any shots, in every instance the participants did not recall seeing their sights, even when the engagement distances were within arms reach. In cases where hits did land, it seems from AARs that most (I didn't count the exact numbers) indicated at least remember getting a flash picture of a sight or at the very least a part of their gun in view. There were a few with hits that didn't recall looking at or seeing their sights, but those are always in the minority. By my estimation (I didn't record any numbers), over a dozen or so evolutions, you might have one person land a hit that just shot without aiming.
For an iron sight pistol zero, I strive to be about 2-3" high at 20 yards in slow deliberate fire. I have found that when running at speed in the shooting sports, the slight blur on the edges of the front sight effectively makes it act like a slightly taller one. That way, under time stress, my hits are spot on 20 yards and in.
Red dot shooters that shoot with a target focus vs a front sight focus probably don't need to fudge their 20 yard slow fire zero like I do with irons.
Inside of 3 yards, its mostly a point shoot speed thing vs aimed fire. Just make sure you choose to run a pistol platform that is an instinctive pointer for you.
Red dot shooters that shoot with a target focus vs a front sight focus probably don't need to fudge their 20 yard slow fire zero like I do with irons.
Inside of 3 yards, its mostly a point shoot speed thing vs aimed fire. Just make sure you choose to run a pistol platform that is an instinctive pointer for you.
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Some Seals and a Green Beret talking about pistol technique, mindset, training, etc. Goto 18:38 in the vid for how one Seal explains how he aims (maybe not all of the time, but in close-in fights).
FWIW, the only time I have had to shoot when actual, not simulated, pressure was on was at a charging pit bull mix that was coming at me. I was alone and was trying (with a notable lack of success) to arrest its owner. The cowardly bastard opened the door to his house and set the dog after me.
I saw the dog coming, then the dog was down with a round in its head. Then I noticed that I had my gun in my hand. All automatic, no memory of drawing nor of aiming.
I saw the dog coming, then the dog was down with a round in its head. Then I noticed that I had my gun in my hand. All automatic, no memory of drawing nor of aiming.
My whole purpose of asking this was the whole legal issues around defending yourself. It seems appropriate to zero it at a distance where most CCW self defense situations occur. If I pop someone at 25yds it may end up bad in the courts.
I mean... If deadly force is justified and authorized it's not dependent on "typical" engagement range. Hardly a reason to zero at a distance that's going to be less forgiving at longer ranges.
I think post #9 sums up the physics of it pretty well. Similar to the 200-250yd hunting zero, max point blank range, etc.. A balancing act of trajectory vs. sight over bore to keep PoA and PoI as close to each other as long as possible.
I think post #9 sums up the physics of it pretty well. Similar to the 200-250yd hunting zero, max point blank range, etc.. A balancing act of trajectory vs. sight over bore to keep PoA and PoI as close to each other as long as possible.
You're mixing two things that have nothing to do with each other. The decision at which to zero a pistol has everything to do with trajectory and nothing to do with the actual distance of any particular target.
That’s an emoji I don’t often see! Well done sir.
About the actual question: I have no effing idea. I rarely shoot pistols, and when I do, there’s a big old suppressor on them. Just ran across that vid one day and said, “Huh, interesting.”
I also stuck a little square of white tape on the back of ye olde Glock and by gum, I think I might like that. Gotta try it outside the house before I’d commit to paint. Wife is getting sick of all the holes in the drywall.
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I’ve never been in a gunfight, but I have been in fistfights with a couple that I didn’t even know a fight was an option. I’m not so sure you have had the experience because if you had the instant adrenaline dump then you could relate a bit better.
So you’re suggesting zeroing the RDS on my CCW at basically the PBR of ammunition I’m using? And learning the DOPE between 3-25yds?
I guess......
I start at 10, make sure I can hit center on a 2x2 square or a 2" circle. Then move out to 25 yards and adjust to hit center of USPSA A zone. All freestyle.
I don't know my "dope" at any distance. I just shoot and hit.
You guys want to overcomplicate the shit our of this, spend your time bagging pistols or putting them on tripods, have at it.
Go shoot an IPSC, USPSA or IDPA match and come back and tell us what a good zero is. As mentioned above, most defensive shooting situations happen at VERY close range. When I was shooting, the IDPA qualifier had a stage where you shot a torso target with 3 shots coming out of the holster, 2 to the body one to the head at 7 yards, 21 feet. Good shooters with 3 "A" hits were around 2 seconds, extremely good shooters were 1.5 seconds. Average Joes were around 2.5 seconds with many around 3 seconds.
Shooting the "games" teaches you to shoot at various distances on the clock with speed; your zero is the last thing you think about.
Shooting the "games" teaches you to shoot at various distances on the clock with speed; your zero is the last thing you think about.
That's not really true, but it can be. It really depends on the individual person and circumstances.
People react differently to stress and have different degrees of stress innoculation. I had a conversation about this topic with another LE guy once and he was talking about tunnel vision and auditory exclusion under stress. Common stress responses.
He phrases it like, "you know what that's like"
I said nope.
He looked at me like I had two heads and said what do you mean by nope? I explained to him that in all the hairy shit I'd seen in my years on the street and since I'd never experienced either of those stress responses.
He didn't believe me because he obviously had been through it and felt strongly that everyone must. Again, circumstances and reactions to stress are different for everyone.
IMO (not a scientist, this is anecdotal) I think a lot of those phenomenon are tied tightly to panic and shock levels of fight / flight from a fear response to a situation.
Not saying I've never been afraid, but I'm able to function regardless and I've found typically the reality of how scary something was hits me after it's over because I typically don't have the time to examine the scary elements of it when it's happening... cause I'm in the middle of fuckin handling whatever it is.
My point in all this is to say nobody knows how they'll react to real life / death kinda stress till they're staring it in the face. Till then you're speculating.
The more experience you get dealing with it, more than likely, the better you'll be able to deal with it in subsequent encounters.
Don't assume anything will or won't happen based on anyone else's say so.
I've pointed a gun at my share of evil doers in my time, never had an issue seeing the sights. Now, with a glowing red RDS it'd be pretty hard not to, but with irons at close range there are definitely times when it may not be necessary or even possible.
Circumstances will dictate your options and stress will dictate your abilities.
I have not been in a citizen style self defense scenario or any gun fight where I used or witnessed anyone use a pistol, but I've been in plenty of actual rifle based firefights.
There's a reason so many instructors talk about muscle memory, and thats because your "muscles" (sunconscious brain) can do what your conscious brain has practiced, and I've personally found that to be true in both real firefights and competition shooting.
Like someone else said, you can practice not using sights or you can practice using sights. If you practice using sights enough, then you'll most likely use them under pressure. Now not everyone "blacks out" during a super stressful situation like a gun fight, some do, and I'd say most people are kind of half and half their first, or first couple firefights. Example: my first firefight, I don't remember much of the details. More so the big events, but as I went to habitually put another mag in without even thinking about it(admin reload), I realized my rifle was on safe AND my dust cover was closed, which is of course, how we constantly trained...
By my last firefight, I remembered most of the details exactly, and remember aiming specifically with my laser at multiple spots both close and far away...JUST LIKE WE TRAINED.
If you practice all the fundamentals regularly(with purpose), then you'll most likely shoot close to how good you normally shoot, in a real life gun fight. So the question would be: why the fuck would you not practice the way that guarantees you'll shoot the most accurately and most consistently in ANY possible situation, not just the probable one?
Everyone's mileage may vary and I'm far from the most experienced in gun fights, but it seems obvious to me. Advice like: "don't train with sights at close distance cause you won't use them", just sounds purposefully sub-optimal.
...and for what it's worth, I think force on force sim training is pretty damn close to the adrenaline you'd have in a real life fight. The "shock" of a gunfight never hit me until after...during the fight, it's just all adrenaline. Shooting USPSA in my opinion, isn't far off, especially if you have a good competitive group and a lot of people.
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Yep. Love my XS big dot sight on my CCW. I have other handguns with red dots. But not on my carry gun. One less thing to worry about. And as others have said, most conflict will be only a few yards away.
All my close self defense shooting is done via Point Shooting at 15' tops. If I were worried about setting up the sights I'd zero them at that range. Fast draw/panic style shooting at this range I can generally keep all rounds in a 4" - 6" circle without acquiring sights.
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