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Coup De Grâce, New Action from American Rifle Company, $899 WOW!
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
Only problem having right now is that the brand new carbon fiber barrel that I just had finished by a very well-known barrel manufacturer seems to have been improperly crowned…Ah young padawan, you’ve learned so well.
As a result bullets were sliding off the inside of the end cap, going 10 mils right and 6 mils low. Got home and I found this:
(For the supressorless, that’s a 30 caliber suppressor and a 6.5 suppressor with an alignment rod, sticking into the barrel, and then through the suppressor. The crown of the barrel appears inproperly cut a few thousands off (out of wack) from the bore, resulting in the rod hitting the upper left-hand corner of the supressor… that’s not just a little off. The resulting few thousands of run out causes the bullets to not blow up the suppressor, but to slide off the inside of the endcap hole… this results with the bullet bouncing out of the suppressor and going 11.6 mils right and down at 100 yards. This happens because of the relatively sharp point on the 6.5 projectile, which is enough to cause it to slide out the end, cap hole as opposed to blow up the suppressor. [EG a federal grand slam safari round to probably have blown up the suppressor] The good news is that it shot fine with a 30 caliber suppressor, which would probably allow me to calculate how much run out I actually have.)
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Appreciate that you held the barrel manufacture name. Seems odd that co-centricity is the problem, given how this work is typically performed. I assume they have made other CDG barrels. Please let us know how this resolves, and best of luck!
They’ve done a lot of barrel work for me and this is the first time they’ve screwed up. I suspect they’re going to say something like the chamber end wasn’t perfect or something. No idea. However, they’ve shown exemplary effort on my behalf in the past… So there’s no reason to out them unless they fail to make it right.
They finished up a Bartlein barrel for me that is completely perfect… just turned out to be a little too thin for my purposes.
This barrel is a Proof Carbon Fiber 1:7.5 blank that was chambered and crowned.
They finished up a Bartlein barrel for me that is completely perfect… just turned out to be a little too thin for my purposes.
This barrel is a Proof Carbon Fiber 1:7.5 blank that was chambered and crowned.
That’s not a crown issue. That’s a muzzle thread concentricity issue.
I’ll take it if they can just cut them…
The 419 adapter seems to fit perfectly flush on the muzzle… Which is why I believe that that’s probably the issue.
The 419 adapter seems to fit perfectly flush on the muzzle… Which is why I believe that that’s probably the issue.
I’m the one who started that thread.
The issue at the time was that the supressor adapter for the 419 system was out of tolerance.
Everything I’m using, I took off a prior barrel that worked without an issue.
I also checked everything to make sure there wasn’t any Loctite that might be getting onto/into the mating surfaces, etc.
Everything is perfectly concentric with attached to a different barrel.
The issue at the time was that the supressor adapter for the 419 system was out of tolerance.
Everything I’m using, I took off a prior barrel that worked without an issue.
I also checked everything to make sure there wasn’t any Loctite that might be getting onto/into the mating surfaces, etc.
Everything is perfectly concentric with attached to a different barrel.
You guys are killing me, I ordered my LA on 2/13 and haven’t heard jack shit, I’m gonna go pout now.
It's replaceable if you do cause any issues. It might be hardened which could be harder to deal with. Go for it, all it can cost you is the price of a new handle.
I don’t know what the resolution was, but Ted had mentioned not hardening the handles at one point just for this reason.
Right. Which means the threads were cut concentric to the outside of the barrel. The issue you’re having is that the center of bore at muzzle is not concentric to the outside of the barrel. So it’s also not a crown issue. You definitely want to discuss this with your builder and he may have to address this with Proof. There’s only so much he can do in that situation.
try being a lefty and sitting patiently for any news of them making it out to the real world
Quit yer bitching and go use some scissors pal!
Looking for some insight for an issue I’m having with my CDG. Getting light primer strikes. I’m pretty confident I have the trigger hanger set up correctly, no drop or cock on close. I watched and rewatched Teds video on how to set it up.
as perfect as I try to make everything, I’m not, so if someone sees something I’m doing incorrectly or plain stupid, by all means I want to here about it.
History of rifle goes as stated:
First dev/break in load of 25 rounds
Hornady virgin brass
33 grains Varget
109 ELDM
CCI BR4 primers
2 of 25 rounds did not fire, both rounds I recocked the rifle and tried again with no detonation.
At this point I made the mistake of blaming the primers, I had very similar striking marks as a fired round. I assume since I tried it twice the firing pin was able to make a deeper divot on the second attempt, there for making them visually similar to a fired round.
My second dev/break in load I did 50 rounds exactly the same as the first 25 (I was looking to test the primers to see how many wouldn’t fire at this point). 3rd round of 50 didn’t fire initially, I cocked the rifle again and it went. 4th fired. 5th did not after trying it twice. After inspecting the primer is when I noticed the light strike, so I took the rifle out of the chassis and proceeded to adjust the trigger hanger, my buddy and I determined that I pushed the trigger hanger to far back, essentially over adjusting it. So I loosened the set screw, overthinking it. 6th round didn’t go off after trying it twice. I stopped playing with it and went back home to figure out what was going on.
I have 3 ways to problem solve:
1. I can try using federal SR match primers, I’ve been told they’re a softer primer. Correct me if I’m wrong.
2. Order the next 2 heaviest firing pin springs from ARC, standard is roughly 16lbs, next heaviest is about 18lbs, and the last is roughly 22lbs. Test them using my currently loaded CCI BR4 primers
3. I can make a spacer to shim my current firing pin spring to potentially increase the weight. I’m leaning away from this idea because I won’t know what the weight would be therefore I wouldn’t be able to decide which spring I should order as I would not want to continually run with a homemade spacer.
For those going to ask rifle set up is:
6GT
26in preferred 1:7.5 barrel
MDT ESS chassis
AW mag with mag latch filed ~5-6 thou shorter
Razor gen 3 in Mbrace mount
Deadair sandman S
Of the groups I was able to shoot I came up with a .38 moa 5 shot.
as perfect as I try to make everything, I’m not, so if someone sees something I’m doing incorrectly or plain stupid, by all means I want to here about it.
History of rifle goes as stated:
First dev/break in load of 25 rounds
Hornady virgin brass
33 grains Varget
109 ELDM
CCI BR4 primers
2 of 25 rounds did not fire, both rounds I recocked the rifle and tried again with no detonation.
At this point I made the mistake of blaming the primers, I had very similar striking marks as a fired round. I assume since I tried it twice the firing pin was able to make a deeper divot on the second attempt, there for making them visually similar to a fired round.
My second dev/break in load I did 50 rounds exactly the same as the first 25 (I was looking to test the primers to see how many wouldn’t fire at this point). 3rd round of 50 didn’t fire initially, I cocked the rifle again and it went. 4th fired. 5th did not after trying it twice. After inspecting the primer is when I noticed the light strike, so I took the rifle out of the chassis and proceeded to adjust the trigger hanger, my buddy and I determined that I pushed the trigger hanger to far back, essentially over adjusting it. So I loosened the set screw, overthinking it. 6th round didn’t go off after trying it twice. I stopped playing with it and went back home to figure out what was going on.
I have 3 ways to problem solve:
1. I can try using federal SR match primers, I’ve been told they’re a softer primer. Correct me if I’m wrong.
2. Order the next 2 heaviest firing pin springs from ARC, standard is roughly 16lbs, next heaviest is about 18lbs, and the last is roughly 22lbs. Test them using my currently loaded CCI BR4 primers
3. I can make a spacer to shim my current firing pin spring to potentially increase the weight. I’m leaning away from this idea because I won’t know what the weight would be therefore I wouldn’t be able to decide which spring I should order as I would not want to continually run with a homemade spacer.
For those going to ask rifle set up is:
6GT
26in preferred 1:7.5 barrel
MDT ESS chassis
AW mag with mag latch filed ~5-6 thou shorter
Razor gen 3 in Mbrace mount
Deadair sandman S
Of the groups I was able to shoot I came up with a .38 moa 5 shot.
Attachments
- What was your brass prep?
- Have you checked head space/shoulder of fired vs unfired brass?
- What trigger are you running?
- Are you 100% sure the hanger isn't contacting the stock & shifting when you torque the action screws?
- Make sure the trigger sear isn't dragging on the fire control sear. I think you'd feel it if you hold the trigger depressed while closing the bolt (unloaded obviously).
Ah, I’m no gunsmith but aren’t muzzle threads supposed to be indexed off of the bore and most certainly not O.D. Of the barrel?
I’ve seen a lot of issues with guys over sizing/bumping their brass leading to FTF/light strikes. I personally had that issues with one my R700 300 BLK action that could only ignite reliably with Fed 205m which are softer than BR4, 450s and REM 7 1/2 due to its shitty factory chambering and excessive headspace.
Also I’ve experienced bit of sear dragging on my RimX which gives me a 5% FTF with a TT Diamond single stage. For some reason, the TT double stage doesn’t have that issue. Could be because the single stage is set for very low pull weight, could be tolerance stacking, etc. The solution here would be to time the cocking piece or get a BnA Tac sport pro with the low sear high.
I’m personally not a fan of increasing striker spring pressure, it’s kind of putting a bandaid on the problem and not resolving the issue. When I had that R700 problem, I did switch to a Wolff extra power striker (24lbs) and all it did was reduce but not eliminate the issue and the trigger pull was shittier and bolt lift heavier.
Glad two great minds like ours can agree! LOL
But, we actually don't know this:
They could have merely fucked up indexing off of the bore at the muzzle end...by a very slight amount.
Also, although @GBMaryland didn't see any space between the 419 uni adapter and muzzle thread shoulder, doesn't mean that there isn't some very small degree of error.
GB said in his post above he struck the end cap of a 30 cal can with a 6.5 bullet but this was a typo. He struck a 6.5 can with a 6.5 bullet and when he put a 30 cal can on it did not strike.
So, I think the error may be very small and it will take some detail measurements to see where the error was introduced.
Cheers
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Just one small thing that I’m sure you know and have checked, but in case. Make sure that all of your primers are seated fully. Proud primers and those that are not fully seated will absorb the firing pin energy and drive them to the proper depth before using what’s left to show a light strike.
Primer seating depth and excessive headspace are the two first easy things to look for. Inspect them all before firing. Afterwards does not give you the answer.
Primer seating depth and excessive headspace are the two first easy things to look for. Inspect them all before firing. Afterwards does not give you the answer.
For brass prep, I ran the necks through the expander ball in my resizing die (RCBS matchmaster), chamfered/debured.
Fired brass grew 6 thousandths
I have a triggertech special set at roughly 1.5 lbs
After inspecting the trigger hanger in the chassis, it does sit on the washer of the rear bolt for the trigger hanger. The height of the trigger hanger plus washer to the bottom face of the receiver where the rear action screw goes is .167, the chassis has a pocket in front of the rear action screw hole that has a depth of .158 from the valley of the “V block” in the chassis. I would have to say the action face sits 2-3 thou higher due the V but it still sits on the trigger hanger.
So I will be taking a dremel to the chassis to fix that, much appreciated for sharing that potential problem, I definitely overlooked it.
On another note, when you check the trigger sear dragging on the fire control sear, with the trigger depressed does your bolt “spring back” roughly 3/16ths of an inch when the bolt is just pushed in, not closed? Does this prove that the sears are dragging or is there something else that causes the bolt to do that. I don’t feel anything dragging while pushing the bolt closed otherwise.
Yes your bolt will spring back about 3/16" that is normal.
No as I push the bolt forward,even with additional thumb pressure at the end, the cocking piece does not move at all. Only when you start to rotate the bolt closed (trigger depressed) does the cocking piece start to snap forward. It basically wants to finish rotating the bolt for you.
Edit to add: There is a little spring loaded plunger (Gold pictured below) that gets depressed when you close the bolt. The spring is weak, but it can push the bolt back about 3/16. If that's what your referring to than yes it's normal. Also doesn't matter if trigger is depressed for that.
The silver cocking piece visible @ back of bolt should not move at all when you normally rotate the bolt closed. If it moves in when rotating then it's de-cocking on close = meaning your loosing striker travel/force.
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When you rotate the bolt shut normally without trigger held, does the Silver cocking piece move at all?
Also @lash made a good point earlier. Primers need to be fully seated. On my 6GT with Hornady I'm typically -.004 to - .006 below flush.
I double check all of my primers after seating them, I will admit with the Hornady brass the primer will protrude about a half a thou on a few cases. I am not happy with this so I plan to use a pocket uniformer on every case to correct this, but I can assure that I fully seat them everytime.
What are you using to seat your primers? If they are protruding past the base of the case I would doubt that they are really seating properly for you. Your bolt may be seating them further when you close the bolt. I would really look closely at that part of your process as this could be giving you ignition issues like you are experiencing.
Hornady iron press, I manually insert primers due to having to many issues with the auto feed straw.
It feels like they bottom out in the pocket, but maybe I’m being misled and the press stops before it is seated properly.
I will being looking into this for sure! Thank you
Since you are basically doing it manually, I would suggest you to consider priming with this:
-Gen III Super Precision Click Head Bench Rest Priming Tool
Introducing the Gen III Super Precision Click Head Priming Tool from 21st Century Innovation. This Priming Tool moves the primer 1 thou per click (.001) for very precise amount of crush. All stainless steel components with billet aluminum handle. CNC machined in house at 21st Century...
21stcenturyinnovation.com
This gives you full control of the process (and your hand receives full feedback of what is going on while seating)
I haven't missed a beat since using it.
A quick check with a straightedge sampling a few should tell you. Pays to do some QC along the way with various things, as you know. Best of luck; I'm sure you'll figure out the gremlin.
Spoke to the gunsmith today, and they gave me a little bit more information on how they actually do carbon fiber barrels…
First, they are totally shocked because they went out of their way to make sure everything was indexed off the bore. The boss himself did the barrel, and he is totally shocked by this… and these guys are known for being really good.
Second, he indicated they put things in a sleeve to prevent issues with getting the CF barrel in the chuck.
Lastly, they sent me a pick up label so that I can go back immediately today.
All the sort of thing I would expect from these guys…..
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I have the MK Machining version with no issues.
Also got my long action assembled today in my AG Composites stock from 2019, took some dremel work to inlet for the trigger hanger but not too much. My brother got his assembled as well and tentatively it appears that 30-06 will feed as the dummy cartridge I had worked without any issues and a flat breech though I’ll have to do more testing before confirming it.
I got a chance to test feeding with AICS mags and a 6.5CM barrel with a flat breech. This was just a small shank prefit from Proof. It worked perfectly fine, zero hang-up, for the 25 or so dummy rounds I tested with on the bench. Which magazine would more benefit from the conical breech? AICS or AW?
Well I couldn’t make my AW mag to work with my flat breech 6.5 creed so if yours work with AICS then I wouldn’t change it.
That being said I didn’t try a different latch height, it was on my Xylo chassis.
I don't know, this was just a savage small shank prefit, for a barrel nut.
Hey all anyone running into a slight hang up when feeding? It’s 6.5CM and it seems like the bullet tip is hitting the left side of where the case shoulder would normally be inside the chamber. If I run the bolt hard enough it’ll self correct and chamber fine but if I’m going slow it’ll hang up until I apply enough pressure.
I haven't experienced that and I tend to run the bolt really slow. Mostly so it doesn't launch the case into next week. I'm running AW mags if that makes a difference.
yea I’m running AW mags as well. I tried 3 different AW’s and 2 different chassis to see if it would make a difference at all.
This is what it looks like when the round leaves the mag. As you can see it’s already oriented really far left and just stays on that path.
