Coup De Grâce, New Action from American Rifle Company, $899 WOW!

[LeftyJason]

Re flutes: I like them too, looks-wise.

But has anyone ever tried “reverse” flutes? Not sure what to call them. Imagine a corn cob without individual kernels but with the horizontal rows, and twist it. You’d get, I don’t know, spiral horizontal “columns” or rows running down the length of the bolt.

Might provide some dirt resistance while better maintaining off-kilter bolt operation.

My dumb 2¢ brainstorm. Might look dumb, others may have already tried it.

Forming that on a mill would likely require a custom profile end mill. Side form shape would likely be the better vs an end shape but either would be hard to resharpen. Can it be done? Sure. Expensive? More likely. I don't remember seeing anything that could do that in an indexible carbide form.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Forming that on a mill would likely require a custom profile end mill. Side form shape would likely be the better vs an end shape but either would be hard to resharpen. Can it be done? Sure. Expensive? More likely. I don't remember seeing anything that could do that in an indexible carbide form.

Yep, more expensive all around. Harder to set tool offsets to get the blend perfect, more scrap due to harder setup. Likely a slight gain in feel.

 

[carbonbased]

Forming that on a mill would likely require a custom profile end mill. Side form shape would likely be the better vs an end shape but either would be hard to resharpen. Can it be done? Sure. Expensive? More likely. I don't remember seeing anything that could do that in an indexible carbide form.

See, this is why I’m a goddamn genius.

 

[karagias]

I appreciate the rapid responses I was not suggesting that this was a problem of that I need help in understand an action that I and others at ARC have painstakingly scrutinized and refined over the past several months. My intention was to garner opinions relating to one's desire for flutes. But perhaps I should have asked the question in a different way, and in hind sight, I'm not sure the questions was fair considering that a proper reply requires the context of having held and cycled one of these actions. Nevertheless, some of your comments are interesting and helpful, particularly those regarding the fast lead (high pitch, think screws) and straight fluting. We have considered straight flute and flutes with a much large pitch than those depicted in the renderings and both have been successfully implemented by other manufactures for years.

But the comment that resonated with me most of all was from Stanley White and his emphasis on function in adverse conditions. Stanley wrote, "Reliability under imperfect operator and operating conditions take priority for me. As such, I would prefer no flutes."

I think Stanley rightfully reminds us of what's important, and that is constant, reliable, forgiving functionality.

I'll post pics of out final bolt as soon as the decision is finalized.

Thanks for your inputs and I'll try to get back here sooner than later. Until then, keep the stream of consciousness flowing.

Ted

 

[max1840]

Fluted Bolts

Sorry about my recent absence. I've been busy finalizing design so that we can get these into the wild sooner than later. I'll try to get back here again in the coming days to answer more questions, especially those regarding magazines. But for now, I want to focus on fluted bolts.

How do you guys feel about fluted bolts? Flutes were obviously depicted in the renderings at the start of this thread but I'm liking them less and less. We've prototyped with and without flutes and the flute-less bolts are certainly more tolerant of shooters with poor bolt-cycling form. And remember, even good shooters sometime get a little sloppy with their form so this may apply to them as well.

The reason for that is that bolt flutes have edges that interact with receiver edges adjacent to the bolt bore. This is obviously true for any bolt action. I can run a bolt from muscle memory alone so for me, the interacting edges really don't present a problem. But if I deliberately run the bolt improperly by applying adverse torques and lateral forces, the effects of the edges become noticeable.

That said, flutes are not without benefits. They function as reservoirs for dirt and grime that, if tightly squeezed between bolt and receiver, might adversely affect the bolt cycle. They also reduce the mass of the bolt which is a very good thing for the bolt stop.

Not sure what the right answer is on this one. Tomorrow we'll be making bolts with fewer and shorter flutes positioned to avoid interaction with certain receiver edges. That might be the right balance.

Also, this post should make evident that during development, we scrutinize every detail no matter how subtle its effect may be. So please, if you end up purchasing a Coup De Grâce action from us, be very careful about making alterations to it. We are aware that cool looking features help us sell actions, but sometimes, as in the case of fluted bolts, adding such features may result in diminished performance.

Ted

I love the flutes as depicted in your rendering to start the thread

 

[PRSDietitian]

While I love the look of flutes, i prefer an action that just plain works. That being said, i like the shallower flutes like on the Zermatt actions. It's very pleasing to the eye, but beauty contests dont win matches

 

[st1650]

Fluted Bolts

Sorry about my recent absence. I've been busy finalizing design so that we can get these into the wild sooner than later. I'll try to get back here again in the coming days to answer more questions, especially those regarding magazines. But for now, I want to focus on fluted bolts.

How do you guys feel about fluted bolts? Flutes were obviously depicted in the renderings at the start of this thread but I'm liking them less and less. We've prototyped with and without flutes and the flute-less bolts are certainly more tolerant of shooters with poor bolt-cycling form. And remember, even good shooters sometime get a little sloppy with their form so this may apply to them as well.

The reason for that is that bolt flutes have edges that interact with receiver edges adjacent to the bolt bore. This is obviously true for any bolt action. I can run a bolt from muscle memory alone so for me, the interacting edges really don't present a problem. But if I deliberately run the bolt improperly by applying adverse torques and lateral forces, the effects of the edges become noticeable.

That said, flutes are not without benefits. They function as reservoirs for dirt and grime that, if tightly squeezed between bolt and receiver, might adversely affect the bolt cycle. They also reduce the mass of the bolt which is a very good thing for the bolt stop.

Not sure what the right answer is on this one. Tomorrow we'll be making bolts with fewer and shorter flutes positioned to avoid interaction with certain receiver edges. That might be the right balance.

Also, this post should make evident that during development, we scrutinize every detail no matter how subtle its effect may be. So please, if you end up purchasing a Coup De Grâce action from us, be very careful about making alterations to it. We are aware that cool looking features help us sell actions, but sometimes, as in the case of fluted bolts, adding such features may result in diminished performance.

Ted

Personally I prefer very light flutes like the AI or no flutes.

I don’t mind the spiral flute on my Defiance anTI since they’re lightweight hunting actions but I’d certainly prefer light short flutes on a tactical action

 

[LeftyJason]

@karagias if you decide no flutes at all it might be good to put out design guidelines for those that want them later so they don't go too far.

 

[The_Steward]

Don't pretty much all the top tactical competition actions have fluted bolts?

I would think that if they really presented that much of a difference in reliability, people wouldn't use them.

 

[BenW]

BAT makes a big fuss about how tight their clearance is between the bolt and raceway, saying it keeps dirt out. I always liked (and think it’s more practical) that ARC’s bolts had tight clearance in battery but a relieved portion in the middle of the bolt for dirt clearance. I buy ARC for well considered design and reliability. Flutes look neat but I don’t think they’re necessary to clear dirt.

 

[carbonbased]

See, this is why I’m a goddamn genius.

I hope people know I’m mocking myself. Lack of emoji has me worried.

 

[b6graham]

aesthetically the massive flutes are one of the things i like most about the action

but if they 'hinder' performance then i guess they can go

 

[shootertom]

Fluted Bolts

Sorry about my recent absence. I've been busy finalizing design so that we can get these into the wild sooner than later. I'll try to get back here again in the coming days to answer more questions, especially those regarding magazines. But for now, I want to focus on fluted bolts.

How do you guys feel about fluted bolts? Flutes were obviously depicted in the renderings at the start of this thread but I'm liking them less and less. We've prototyped with and without flutes and the flute-less bolts are certainly more tolerant of shooters with poor bolt-cycling form. And remember, even good shooters sometime get a little sloppy with their form so this may apply to them as well.

The reason for that is that bolt flutes have edges that interact with receiver edges adjacent to the bolt bore. This is obviously true for any bolt action. I can run a bolt from muscle memory alone so for me, the interacting edges really don't present a problem. But if I deliberately run the bolt improperly by applying adverse torques and lateral forces, the effects of the edges become noticeable.

That said, flutes are not without benefits. They function as reservoirs for dirt and grime that, if tightly squeezed between bolt and receiver, might adversely affect the bolt cycle. They also reduce the mass of the bolt which is a very good thing for the bolt stop.

Not sure what the right answer is on this one. Tomorrow we'll be making bolts with fewer and shorter flutes positioned to avoid interaction with certain receiver edges. That might be the right balance.

Also, this post should make evident that during development, we scrutinize every detail no matter how subtle its effect may be. So please, if you end up purchasing a Coup De Grâce action from us, be very careful about making alterations to it. We are aware that cool looking features help us sell actions, but sometimes, as in the case of fluted bolts, adding such features may result in diminished performance.

Ted

I think that shallower flutes with nicely chamfered edges might be nice. They you can still have collection points and not cause much resistance.

 

[357Max]

@karagias - Flutes

Ted - My initial thought when looking at the renderings. Well Ted redesigned the extractor thus allowing flutes & the flutes look aggressive. Bad ass looking IMO. Are flutes necessary - No. Do they really help - Biggest benefit is probably shaving a little weight from a big bolt.
That said I Love them. Even more so I like that they are not a copy of AI, Surgeon, or anyone else. They make a statement (these are ARC flutes) The flutes appear to be truncated at bearing areas. It also appears you've added/extended about .700"of bolt support to the rear of the action by closing the top.

Obviously a lot of thought went into the design. Don't second guess yourself. Tweak the flute profile/spacing if you must to optimize performance.

The flutes as rendered are Compendious!

If you do away with the flutes I want 1 of the prototypes.

My second thought was crap I hope Ted didn't compromise on the extractor to allow for fluting. That was put to rest as I read on. I wonder how many people fully understand & appreciate the extractor design? The forthcoming video should clarify.

In my experience anytime something is comprehensively engineered really well, it doesn't jump out at you.

 

[TheOE800]

Aesthetically I prefer flutes. Functionally I dislike bolts that don’t tolerate lateral loading of the bolt.

 

[BB&P]

Maybe im just naive, but what role does this fill that the other 3 actions do not?

 

[PRSDietitian]

Maybe im just naive, but what role does this fill that the other 3 actions do not?

I see it as a Archimedes that accepts AIAW mags with a shorter bolt throw which is very appealing to me. It's like arch 2.0

 

[browning442]

Ted - would it be possible to offer the choice of fluted or non-fluted? Some prefer aesthetics, and won’t be running in adverse conditions much. Others was pure functionality over aesthetics which is also understandable. I think having a choice would be best case scenario but understand if it has to be one or the other from a mfg cost perspective. It certainly LOOKS sharper than non-fluted to me and separates this as it’s own beast.

 

[357Max]

Maybe im just naive, but what role does this fill that the other 3 actions do not?

He addressed most if not all the gripes everyone had with the Archimedes & Nuke.

• 3 lug that can run Lapua bolt face
• adjustable cock on close with any trigger
• Bolt with lever that can be field stripped without tools
• Integral pick rail adds strength to receiver - This plays into next bullet point
• AW mag compatibility
• Bolt support extended at rear of action
• Likely the strongest/safest extractor made in an over pressure event

 

[S3th]

I love flutes. I also want an action that can just run when pressure is ability at various angles. It is virtually impossible to bind my Zeus which I believe has pretty aggressive fluting. How about a bolt that is partially fluted? I believe Impact's bolts are partially fluted.

 

[4O6shootist]

Thanks for the info. Did you have to remove any stock material to make it fit or was the inlet slightly larger/just didn't line up proper? Any accuracy issues?

Had to take a file to the bolt cut, it wasn't deep enough, handle bottomed out in the inlet. Talked to John Kyle and he ensured it would fit properly, and it didn't.

 

[lash]

I also like the flutes and have been using fluted bolts, run hard and heavy for many years. I like them. Did I say that I like them?

 

[Bryan W M]

This is a tool as such it is supposed to work and always work. Guys bitching about the name and how it looks I don’t understand.

Ted make it work and handle hell that’s all that matters.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Ah yes but the trick is to make it handsome and functional.

 

[Luke G]

My vote would be to keep them. I am a function over aesthetics guy and while the large flutes look fantastic they also help with debris as you mentioned.

If the only down side is that bolt operation is slightly less smooth if not operated properly then in true snipers hide form I would simply suggest that people who have problems with that simply get better and learn how to shoot a bolt gun. Alternatively maybe check out the semi auto threads and see if that’s a better fit for you.

Joking of course but as long as they don’t actually cause any binding or other issues I like them. Worse case as mentioned before maybe try experimenting with smaller flutes or straight flutes.

Also, definitely add a swept handle option. That would be icing on the cake for a lot of guys on here and would probably sell a lot of actions due to that feature alone!

 

[aviumvenator]

Ah yes but the trick is to make it handsome and functional.

Most any designer can make a product look good and most any engineer can make it work. Making it both, well that’s where it’s at.

 

[Pav67]

Love the look of the flutes in the rendering.That being said they need to work when the bolt is run properly.I wouldn’t eliminate them because someone may gorilla fist the action and cause it to bind.

 

[shootertom]

I appreciate the rapid responses I was not suggesting that this was a problem of that I need help in understand an action that I and others at ARC have painstakingly scrutinized and refined over the past several months. My intention was to garner opinions relating to one's desire for flutes. But perhaps I should have asked the question in a different way, and in hind sight, I'm not sure the questions was fair considering that a proper reply requires the context of having held and cycled one of these actions. Nevertheless, some of your comments are interesting and helpful, particularly those regarding the fast lead (high pitch, think screws) and straight fluting. We have considered straight flute and flutes with a much large pitch than those depicted in the renderings and both have been successfully implemented by other manufactures for years.

But the comment that resonated with me most of all was from Stanley White and his emphasis on function in adverse conditions. Stanley wrote, "Reliability under imperfect operator and operating conditions take priority for me. As such, I would prefer no flutes."

I think Stanley rightfully reminds us of what's important, and that is constant, reliable, forgiving functionality.

I'll post pics of out final bolt as soon as the decision is finalized.

Thanks for your inputs and I'll try to get back here sooner than later. Until then, keep the stream of consciousness flowing.

Ted

I also notice that some others that do fluting will leave the lower side of the bolt un-fluted. I imagine the goal is to not have flutes create an off camber drag on the next round in the magazine. Something to consider for smooth loading.

 

[Jon_ARC]

Ted and I were working on the Coup De Grâce action this evening and I thought I would share a snap shot of it. We are getting closer!

 

[SawtoothShooter]

Ted & Jon -- This action is highly interesting for a pair of 416 Rigby builds a customer brought to me recently. Perchance will the LA version be capable of accepting extended 3.850 boxes of the appropriate girth for such use? We Looked at a Mausingfield chambered in 338 Norma today, and I was very hesitant regarding the amount of milling necessary to make it work for something so violent, so if this action would come ready to roll for a big boy round like the rigby (or have enough meat to customize) that would be amazing.

 

[Hetzer]

No flutes is fine with me. Especially if it reduces the overall cost for little benefit.

 

[Kadams1563]

IMO not putting flutes in will deter people from buying. People are still heavily invested in the first type of cool (the looks).

I mean hell I shoot a tiger striped 6GT lol.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Flutes are sexy.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

My other four ARCs don’t have flutes. I love the looks of the original posting and would like them flutes. If it binds then the action is telling me I need to tighten up my game. It’s not the actions fault.

 

[spife7980]

I can’t see the ejector in the pics but if it’s the same nuc/arc ejector I wonder if it can catch on the flutes if the rifle is canted over far enough for gravity to flip it down?

 

[4O6shootist]

I don't think a swept and pivoting bolt handle is that great an idea

 

[Hennig]

Deep straight flutes would be baller too.

 

[xfyre101]

Ted and I were working on the Coup De Grâce action this evening and I thought I would share a snap shot of it. We are getting closer!
View attachment 8050686

no red accents on this one?

 

[BMNT]

Fluted Bolts

Sorry about my recent absence. I've been busy finalizing design so that we can get these into the wild sooner than later. I'll try to get back here again in the coming days to answer more questions, especially those regarding magazines. But for now, I want to focus on fluted bolts.

How do you guys feel about fluted bolts? Flutes were obviously depicted in the renderings at the start of this thread but I'm liking them less and less. We've prototyped with and without flutes and the flute-less bolts are certainly more tolerant of shooters with poor bolt-cycling form. And remember, even good shooters sometime get a little sloppy with their form so this may apply to them as well.

The reason for that is that bolt flutes have edges that interact with receiver edges adjacent to the bolt bore. This is obviously true for any bolt action. I can run a bolt from muscle memory alone so for me, the interacting edges really don't present a problem. But if I deliberately run the bolt improperly by applying adverse torques and lateral forces, the effects of the edges become noticeable.

That said, flutes are not without benefits. They function as reservoirs for dirt and grime that, if tightly squeezed between bolt and receiver, might adversely affect the bolt cycle. They also reduce the mass of the bolt which is a very good thing for the bolt stop.

Not sure what the right answer is on this one. Tomorrow we'll be making bolts with fewer and shorter flutes positioned to avoid interaction with certain receiver edges. That might be the right balance.

Also, this post should make evident that during development, we scrutinize every detail no matter how subtle its effect may be. So please, if you end up purchasing a Coup De Grâce action from us, be very careful about making alterations to it. We are aware that cool looking features help us sell actions, but sometimes, as in the case of fluted bolts, adding such features may result in diminished performance.

Ted

For me, reliability is of paramount importance! When the weather goes to sh*t while on a hunt or etc., i.e. dust storm out west, freezing rain (yes, that occasionally happens even here in Alabama), or frost build-up from getting in and out of a vehicle or tent in sub-freezing temperatures, I want to be damned sure that it’ll work even if I’m wearing oversized oven mitts.
So, I think a few shallow widely spaced flutes would be in order.
Or, I just had this (possibly crazy as hell) idea: Does anybody remember the dimpled barrels on Knights Armament barrels from back in the day? (similar to the attached pic.) I think some shallow dimples (maybe about half as many as pic) would allow more bearing surface between bolt/receiver interface while still allowing somewhere for dust/fine sand to go WITHOUT providing a “fast-track/tunnel” for wind driven debris to find its way into action (while not being worked) like deep continuous flutes would(?)

 

[DangerRanger]

no red accents on this one?

Makes it too fast

 

[Jon_ARC]

I can’t see the ejector in the pics but if it’s the same nuc/arc ejector I wonder if it can catch on the flutes if the rifle is canted over far enough for gravity to flip it down?

This action does use a similar ejector as our other actions but he ejector and the flutes never cross paths during the bolt cycle.

 

[Jon_ARC]

no red accents on this one?

Just a prototype at this point. We should be receiving some red colored components soon.

 

[Benfield_Precision]

Ted & Jon -- This action is highly interesting for a pair of 416 Rigby builds a customer brought to me recently. Perchance will the LA version be capable of accepting extended 3.850 boxes of the appropriate girth for such use? We Looked at a Mausingfield chambered in 338 Norma today, and I was very hesitant regarding the amount of milling necessary to make it work for something so violent, so if this action would come ready to roll for a big boy round like the rigby (or have enough meat to customize) that would be amazing.

+1 for this!!!! With CZ discontinuing the 550, LAW's complete buisness failure with the M704 action, and Montana Rifle Company closing thier doors there isn't an affordable big boy Safari action avaliable, unless a guy wants to highly modify a Win M70 or pay 5K for a Square bridge Mauser or Dakota. Speaking with a PH in South Africa this summer. "If a guy could get a 375 or 416 with control round feed and a Win 3 position safety that feed under ANY circomstances clients would buy them like crazy!!!!

 

[Benfield_Precision]

For me, reliability is of paramount importance! When the weather goes to sh*t while on a hunt or etc., i.e. dust storm out west, freezing rain (yes, that occasionally happens even here in Alabama), or frost build-up from getting in and out of a vehicle or tent in sub-freezing temperatures, I want to be damned sure that it’ll work even if I’m wearing oversized oven mitts.
So, I think a few shallow widely spaced flutes would be in order.
Or, I just had this (possibly crazy as hell) idea: Does anybody remember the dimpled barrels on Knights Armament barrels from back in the day? (similar to the attached pic.) I think some shallow dimples (maybe about half as many as pic) would allow more bearing surface between bolt/receiver interface while still allowing somewhere for dust/fine sand to go WITHOUT providing a “fast-track/tunnel” for wind driven debris to find its way into action (while not being worked) like deep continuous flutes would(?)View attachment 8050762

Mesa Precision used a HEX pattern on some of thier earlier actions, it felt like a cheese gratter as the bolt would contact the edge of the bolt raceway and transition from a bearing surface that was perpendicular to direction of travel to parallel. This feature was removed in later actions.
I would hate to say but the dimples may have the same effect.

 

[Barelstroker]

Just a prototype at this point. We should be receiving some red colored components soon.

If I could change the subject a little.
This new Coup action pretty much ticks all my boxes so, I'll be ordering when they become available.
I'm particularly interested in the AW mag compatibility & am wondering if you guys have designed the action to run AW mags with the Xylo chassis in mind. I'm particularly interested in running 6 BR with an AW short case mage kit. Would it be possible to test the Coup with that configuration?
Also, do you recommend the Xylo chassis for use with the AW mags in preference to say the new MDT ACC?

 

[giumau1]

If I could change the subject a little.
This new Coup action pretty much ticks all my boxes so, I'll be ordering when they become available.
I'm particularly interested in the AW mag compatibility & am wondering if you guys have designed the action to run AW mags with the Xylo chassis in mind. I'm particularly interested in running 6 BR with an AW short case mage kit. Would it be possible to test the Coup with that configuration?
Also, do you recommend the Xylo chassis for use with the AW mags in preference to say the new MDT ACC?

+1, same here, the CDG+XYLO will be my next Dasher build, and would be great to see it included as one of the CDG complete rifles

 

[tydex21]

I appreciate the rapid responses I was not suggesting that this was a problem of that I need help in understand an action that I and others at ARC have painstakingly scrutinized and refined over the past several months. My intention was to garner opinions relating to one's desire for flutes. But perhaps I should have asked the question in a different way, and in hind sight, I'm not sure the questions was fair considering that a proper reply requires the context of having held and cycled one of these actions. Nevertheless, some of your comments are interesting and helpful, particularly those regarding the fast lead (high pitch, think screws) and straight fluting. We have considered straight flute and flutes with a much large pitch than those depicted in the renderings and both have been successfully implemented by other manufactures for years.

But the comment that resonated with me most of all was from Stanley White and his emphasis on function in adverse conditions. Stanley wrote, "Reliability under imperfect operator and operating conditions take priority for me. As such, I would prefer no flutes."

I think Stanley rightfully reminds us of what's important, and that is constant, reliable, forgiving functionality.

I'll post pics of out final bolt as soon as the decision is finalized.

Thanks for your inputs and I'll try to get back here sooner than later. Until then, keep the stream of consciousness flowing.

Ted

Of my last several custom rifle orders for clients, I tried in vain to get them to use a Nuke or an Archimedes in their builds. Even after feeling several different rifles and preferring the ARCs, they chose a different action solely because of the flutes.

It’s nearly impossible to educate the ignorant if they aren’t willing to accept information. However, of my clients who are willing to listen, the majority of them go with an ARC.

That being said, if you could get the action to function in a way you’re happy with, I would prefer flutes for the sole reason that I know I could sell more of your actions.

Thanks for crowd sourcing and I can’t wait until the release!

 

[TheSunPope]

I wonder if an action was offered both fluted and not how big the difference in sales between both would be all else being equal. Personally part of the reason I picked up a Nucleus for my own build recently was I love the clean utilitarian look.

 

[DJL2]

Were all the English names taken? I like you Ted and the products you make, I own a lot of them but if hipsters started naming gun parts this is what they’d be.

Gun guys don’t talk like that, no gun guy wants to say “coup de grace” or any other French term when they get asked the name of their action, they’re just going to say CDG to avoid it. Translating to “kill shot” would be much more fitting.

CDG will always be Charles de Gaul for many of us... and that acronym shall never pass my lips in reference to anything else. ;-)

Also, if you think "coo-d-gra" is too long of a name, but have no problem with "ar-che-mee-dees" you're probably the same jack ass using "lima charlie" instead of "loud and clear" on the net because you think it makes you sound bad ass ;-).

 

[DangerRanger]

@Jon_ARC what’s the Stock pin travel on a triggertech and how much of that is cock on close?