Did Steiner just quietly build the MPO we have all been asking for? H6xi

#201
C_Does said:
I had a pst I 2.5-10x32 for a long time.i reviewed it and used it on my Steyer Scout for a year or so. The optics in that scope were excellent despite the age. Sharp, clear and crisp.the view through it was small,the fov was ok, the mrad reticle was good too. Non locking turrets are a turn off for me and there were a bunch of people that had them fail under odd circumstances. I would give the pst the glass edge. But the Helos is the better, more rounded package.

But again, different strokes for different folks. If the pst works better for you then that's awesome.
Click to expand...
It's certainly not my dream MPVO (for all the reasons you mentioned) but the glass was considerably better than my PST, especially in low light it wasn't even close.
Perhaps I had a bad example of the Helos but I couldn't really live with the glass in the Helos.
 
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#202
C_Does said:
I'm trying to have this make sense I'm my brain.but it feels scrambled lol
Click to expand...
Sorry that message was a bit cryptic.

I didn't hate the Helos reticle, and certainly didn't find the centre dot so large that it was unusable, but the reticle was far from perfect.
Heres my take on the reticle (for what it's worth).

The reticle needs to be thought of in two different ways, visibility features on low mag (2-4x ish) and usability features at high magnification (8-12x).

Low mag visibility features are (or could be):
-2mil "ring of death"
-large 0.3mil centre dot
-thicker 0.08mil centre stadia thickness
-outer stadia thickness/distance from centre
-illumination

The 2mil ring of death is what makes this reticle so easy to use on 2x, presumably you will be shooting at a fairly close or fairly large target if using 2x-3x, so the ring of death is what you end up using as your aiming point.
The large centre dot is actually visible on 2x and could be used as a finer aiming point if shooting a smaller target, but the 0.08mil centre stadia is more than thick enough to see on 2x, the PST G1 reticle is only 0.06mil thick and is fairly easy to see on 2.5x, so I'd have just extended those line a little closer to the centre which would negate the need for the large centre dot.

I don't like the whole tree being illuminated, it destroys too much of your night vision (if using in low light) and IMO is too distraction being fully lit, I'd prefer to only light the ring of death and the centre cross that's within the ring, so 2mils each direction or at least not the entire tree.

I potentially would bring the thick outer stadia into the 5mil mark and make them even thicker (like the SWFA Milquad) but that may not be necessary.

High mag usability features are (or could be):
-a fine centre aiming point
-a main cross hair that doesn't obscure the target but has enough information to be useful
-a tree that is fit for purpose (eg not H59)

The 0.3mil centre dot is too large for ultimate precision, I wouldn't want to see a tiny one, but 0.05 or 0.06mil would probably be about right, or you could also do it 0.15mil to match the tree dot size.
The wind holds not starting until 1mil is annoying (other reticles do this too), I'd have bought it in to start at .5mil.
The tree and main cross is fine for the most part, I'd like to see the numbers on both sides of the tree (I'm actually a heathen who prefers number on the centre stadia rather than outside of the tree), would also like to see more number on the horizontal cross for easier wind holds.

TLDR; I don't hate the reticle but I'd definitely like to see some changes if they were to put it in a more expensive scope.
Most of the features I've described exist in other reticles (many that you've reviewed) but bringing them all together appears to be the difficult part.

I know that you are fairly passionate about the whole MPVO concept, so here's my thesis about MPVO reticle design.
 
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#203
beetroot said:
Sorry that message was a bit cryptic.

I didn't hate the Helos reticle, and certainly didn't find the centre dot so large that it was unusable, but the reticle was far from perfect.
Heres my take on the reticle (for what it's worth).

The reticle needs to be thought of in two different ways, visibility features on low mag (2-4x ish) and usability features at high magnification (8-12x).

Low mag visibility features are (or could be):
-2mil "ring of death"
-large 0.3mil centre dot
-thicker 0.08mil centre stadia thickness
-outer stadia thickness/distance from centre
-illumination

The 2mil ring of death is what makes this reticle so easy to use on 2x, presumably you will be shooting at a fairly close or fairly large target if using 2x-3x, so the ring of death is what you end up using as your aiming point.
The large centre dot is actually visible on 2x and could be used as a finer aiming point if shooting a smaller target, but the 0.08mil centre stadia is more than thick enough to see on 2x, the PST G1 reticle is only 0.06mil thick and is fairly easy to see on 2.5x, so I'd have just extended those line a little closer to the centre which would negate the need for the large centre dot.

I don't like the whole tree being illuminated, it destroys too much of your night vision (if using in low light) and IMO is too distraction being fully lit, I'd prefer to only light the ring of death and the centre cross that's within the ring, so 2mils each direction or at least not the entire tree.

I potentially would bring the thick outer stadia into the 5mil mark and make them even thicker (like the SWFA Milquad) but that may not be necessary.

High mag usability features are (or could be):
-a fine centre aiming point
-a main cross hair that doesn't obscure the target but has enough information to be useful
-a tree that is fit for purpose (eg not H59)

The 0.3mil centre dot is too large for ultimate precision, I wouldn't want to see a tiny one, but 0.05 or 0.06mil would probably be about right, or you could also do it 0.15mil to match the tree dot size.
The wind holds not starting until 1mil is annoying (other reticles do this too), I'd have bought it in to start at .5mil.
The tree and main cross is fine for the most part, I'd like to see the numbers on both sides of the tree (I'm actually a heathen who prefers number on the centre stadia rather than outside of the tree), would also like to see more number on the horizontal cross for easier wind holds.

TLDR; I don't hate the reticle but I'd definitely like to see some changes if they were to put it in a more expensive scope.
Most of the features I've described exist in other reticles (many that you've reviewed) but bringing them all together appears to be the difficult part.

I know that you are fairly passionate about the whole MPVO concept, so here's my thesis about MPVO reticle design.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty much in this camp. Very well stated.

Though I’d like to propose that for those that have an aversion to the ring of death, instead make the stadia at 2 mils a bit heavier. Noticeably. Then make those stadia and at least .5 hash marks the only parts that are illuminated.

Add .2 minor marks inside that if you must, but for illumination, just the major marks.
 
#205
There's no one reticle that will solve what everyone is looking for. The only solution is for multiple manufacturers to actually listen to what people are asking for and make multiple scopes/reticles to fulfill everyone's needs.

My problem with the Helos was the opposite of most here: I didnt find it visible enough on 2x. When doing timed drills it took me an extra .1+ to get that 2mil circle on target, and I was less precise, as compared to a red dot or a fast reticle like the PA Griffin at 2.5x. i found I was faster setting the scope to 3x to make that circle more bold, and at that point it was just a 3-12 that was heavier and lower quality than the PA GlX.
For me, the Helos reticle would be about perfect if they made that outer circle more thick so it was quicker to pick up. I found the 1moa/.3mil center dot perfect for my needs, definitely wouldn't want it any smaller. Its also way better than the tiny Chevron PA puts in several of their reticles in this general mag range.
 
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#206
Tictacticaltimmy said:
There's no one reticle that will solve what everyone is looking for. The only solution is for multiple manufacturers to actually listen to what people are asking for and make multiple scopes/reticles to fulfill everyone's needs.

My problem with the Helos was the opposite of most here: I didnt find it visible enough on 2x. When doing timed drills it took me an extra .1+ to get that 2mil circle on target, and I was less precise, as compared to a red dot or a fast reticle like the PA Griffin at 2.5x. i found I was faster setting the scope to 3x to make that circle more bold, and at that point it was just a 3-12 that was heavier and lower quality than the PA GlX.
For me, the Helos reticle would be about perfect if they made that outer circle more thick so it was quicker to pick up. I found the 1moa/.3mil center dot perfect for my needs, definitely wouldn't want it any smaller. Its also way better than the tiny Chevron PA puts in several of their reticles in this general mag range.
Click to expand...
A perfect case scenario of 'different strokes' I never heard of the tricky being to hats to pick up. Might I suggest you try a Leupold with the tmr to try it out.
 
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#208
Tictacticaltimmy said:
There's no one reticle that will solve what everyone is looking for. The only solution is for multiple manufacturers to actually listen to what people are asking for and make multiple scopes/reticles to fulfill everyone's needs.

My problem with the Helos was the opposite of most here: I didnt find it visible enough on 2x. When doing timed drills it took me an extra .1+ to get that 2mil circle on target, and I was less precise, as compared to a red dot or a fast reticle like the PA Griffin at 2.5x. i found I was faster setting the scope to 3x to make that circle more bold, and at that point it was just a 3-12 that was heavier and lower quality than the PA GlX.
For me, the Helos reticle would be about perfect if they made that outer circle more thick so it was quicker to pick up. I found the 1moa/.3mil center dot perfect for my needs, definitely wouldn't want it any smaller. Its also way better than the tiny Chevron PA puts in several of their reticles in this general mag range.
Click to expand...

I'm curious what your use case is that you like the centre dot and wouldn't want it any smaller?
As is what sort of targets are you shooting, or shooitng discipline, and at what magnification?
 
#211
beetroot said:
I'm curious what your use case is that you like the centre dot and wouldn't want it any smaller?
As is what sort of targets are you shooting, or shooitng discipline, and at what magnification?
Click to expand...
General training with a 5.56 GPR.
I run an offset dot set up in such a way that it is my primary weapon sight, the MPVO is there to immediately give more magnification OR as a backup if the red dot should go down or I'm shooting from a position that would be awkward to mount the dot.

One example of a drill I like, and that I use to evaluate MPVOs because it is beyond the precision range of a red dot yet requires rapid acquisition off difficult targets under stress, I call "offhand precision", a simplified version of a 2gun stage I shot. keep in mind I typically paint the targets to camo reasonably with the background, I'm not shooting freshly painted white steel.
Basically you start 100M from 2 targets, one 8" one 12". You advance through a series of 8 positions and take one shot at each target from each position, such that you are having to rapidly move, take a precise offhand shot, move to the next position, repeat. Each position you switch between engaging the 8" target to the 12" target. This drill teaches a lot in only 8 rounds (if you don't miss).
Do the math, the smaller target is exactly 2 mils and the larger 3 mils. The 2mil circle should be perfect for rapid acquisition of these targets right? Well what I found is it wasnt. The thin circle was too hard to rapidly pick up against the brush-cluttered background and camoed target, and as I get out of breath from shooting multiple runs this only gets worse. By contrast the pa griffin reticle was great for this, with no illumination.

On the other end of the spectrum, consider using the scope where you would prefer to use a red dot or 1x on an lpvo. I often practice shooting from the low ready, at targets ranging from a uspsa a zone at 7M out to a 50M 4" gong, with agressive par times.
Here especially the Helos was was slower than the PA Griffin and less precise, and I actually had better results turning it up to 3x to acquire that circle more rapidly. By contrast the pa griffin is consistently within about .1s of a red dot.

On the other hand, when it comes to precise shooting with a gas gun the 1moa circle is excellent. Are you shooting targets that are sub moa? Under realistic stress and time pressure? I sure cant! This is where the Helos beats down the PA Griffin, its 1moa dot allows far more precise targeting than that bigass chevron, yet is visible at all mag ranges.
It isn't as good as a true precision reticle with markings around the center to spot and correct your near misses, but that would be a tradeoff I'm happy to make all day IF the reticle allows lethal speed in the type of dynamic shooting described above.
 
#212
Tictacticaltimmy said:
General training with a 5.56 GPR.
I run an offset dot set up in such a way that it is my primary weapon sight, the MPVO is there to immediately give more magnification OR as a backup if the red dot should go down or I'm shooting from a position that would be awkward to mount the dot.

One example of a drill I like, and that I use to evaluate MPVOs because it is beyond the precision range of a red dot yet requires rapid acquisition off difficult targets under stress, I call "offhand precision", a simplified version of a 2gun stage I shot. keep in mind I typically paint the targets to camo reasonably with the background, I'm not shooting freshly painted white steel.
Basically you start 100M from 2 targets, one 8" one 12". You advance through a series of 8 positions and take one shot at each target from each position, such that you are having to rapidly move, take a precise offhand shot, move to the next position, repeat. Each position you switch between engaging the 8" target to the 12" target. This drill teaches a lot in only 8 rounds (if you don't miss).
Do the math, the smaller target is exactly 2 mils and the larger 3 mils. The 2mil circle should be perfect for rapid acquisition of these targets right? Well what I found is it wasnt. The thin circle was too hard to rapidly pick up against the brush-cluttered background and camoed target, and as I get out of breath from shooting multiple runs this only gets worse. By contrast the pa griffin reticle was great for this, with no illumination.
Click to expand...
So how does the Griffin reticle do this better than the Helos?
Is it that you are able to bracket the target in the middle of the big circle, or do you use the big circle to locate the target then aim with the chevron?

I assume you are using the PA 2.5-10x44?

I too like to test my lower magnification scopes (2-10, 2-12 ,3-15) on smaller targets, maybe it's because I like using low magnification in matches, or my love of small game hunting.
I've always found the most effective was to make a FFP reticle visible at low power is to just have the main cross hairs to be a reasonable thickness, the donut and 1moa centre dot in the Helos never seemed to make much difference as if I couldn't see the main cross hairs then I couldn't see them either.

I've also found that zooming out to 3x is often a better magnification for shooting smaller targets, you can see the target better and also get a thicker reticle. That's sorta the main reason why I don't like the 1moa dot, after about 4x the main cross hair is more than thick enough to see and the big dot is making little difference, other than big unnecessarily large once I get to 12x.

I think MPVOs are in a difficult spot reticle wise, they are trying to combine the features of a LVPO reticle and a high magnification reticle, and manufacturers seem to keep leaning towards a high magnification reticle (like the one they look to be putting in this Steiner).
Perhaps it'll prove that they need to rely on illumination or a dual focal plan design, or just admit that 2x isn't required if people are using offset red dots with them.
To drag up another thread, if Vortex had done a FFP version of the 3-15x44 Viper HD they may well have made the whole MPVO idea irrelevant, as a 22.5oz 3-15x44 is the same weight (or less) as many of these MPVO designs, with a super wide FOV (almost the same of 3x as many other designs on 2.5x) and the advantage of a little more magnification on the high end.

I should probably stop commenting in this thread now and just wait and see what the Steiner looks like when it comes to market.
 
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#213
beetroot said:
I think MPVOs are in a difficult spot reticle wise, they are trying to combine the features of a LVPO reticle and a high magnification reticle, and manufacturers seem to keep leaning towards a high magnification reticle (like the one they look to be putting in this Steiner).
Click to expand...
That is the challenge. Athlon's reticle is close, but I might like the ZCO HTR better, have to wait and see how it looks at 2x and at 10x but that's the closest.
beetroot said:
Perhaps it'll prove that they need to rely on illumination or a dual focal plan design, or just admit that 2x isn't required if people are using offset red dots with them.
Click to expand...
The March DR-TR2B reticle has the closest I've seen to ideal for a reticle for MPVO, but DFP reticles are tricky especially for "cheaper" say $1500 class optics. This leaves the donut/quad/horseshoe option and/or super bright center cross type illumination. Manufacturers aren't yet convinced there is a market desire for MPVO because too many are still being influenced by the hunting world which insists on SFP optics.
beetroot said:
To drag up another thread, if Vortex had done a FFP version of the 3-15x44 Viper HD they may well have made the whole MPVO idea irrelevant, as a 22.5oz 3-15x44 is the same weight (or less) as many of these MPVO designs, with a super wide FOV (almost the same of 3x as many other designs on 2.5x) and the advantage of a little more magnification on the high end.
Click to expand...
Vortex never intended the Viper line to be what that thread was looking for, the Viper line is designed for hunters pure and simple while giving the long range crossover community an option with a FFP 5-25. I am still holding out for hope that Vortex has another line with which they will address this crossover and MPVO need...
beetroot said:
I should probably stop commenting in this thread now and just wait and see what the Steiner looks like when it comes to market.
Click to expand...
Makes me wonder if Steiner went back to the drawing board on the mil reticle for the H6Xi, based on the sketches provided from SHOT it seemed they missed the mark but who knows what the final reticle will look like in the production models is anyone's guess at this point. What we do know is that many manufacturers don't seem to understand the MPVO market and continue to just throw in a long range reticle into a lower powered FFP scope.
 
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#215
Glassaholic said:
Vortex never intended the Viper line to be what that thread was looking for, the Viper line is designed for hunters pure and simple while giving the long range crossover community an option with a FFP 5-25. I am still holding out for hope that Vortex has another line with which they will address this crossover and MPVO need...
Click to expand...
I know, but they have the base there to make an amazing crossover/ MHPVO (new market segment, mid-high power variable optic).

Basically everything change I wanted for the PST G2 3-15.
But alas it was not to be.
 
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#216
beetroot said:
So how does the Griffin reticle do this better than the Helos?
Is it that you are able to bracket the target in the middle of the big circle, or do you use the big circle to locate the target then aim with the chevron?

I assume you are using the PA 2.5-10x44?

I too like to test my lower magnification scopes (2-10, 2-12 ,3-15) on smaller targets, maybe it's because I like using low magnification in matches, or my love of small game hunting.
I've always found the most effective was to make a FFP reticle visible at low power is to just have the main cross hairs to be a reasonable thickness, the donut and 1moa centre dot in the Helos never seemed to make much difference as if I couldn't see the main cross hairs then I couldn't see them either.

I've also found that zooming out to 3x is often a better magnification for shooting smaller targets, you can see the target better and also get a thicker reticle. That's sorta the main reason why I don't like the 1moa dot, after about 4x the main cross hair is more than thick enough to see and the big dot is making little difference, other than big unnecessarily large once I get to 12x.

I think MPVOs are in a difficult spot reticle wise, they are trying to combine the features of a LVPO reticle and a high magnification reticle, and manufacturers seem to keep leaning towards a high magnification reticle (like the one they look to be putting in this Steiner).
Perhaps it'll prove that they need to rely on illumination or a dual focal plan design, or just admit that 2x isn't required if people are using offset red dots with them.
To drag up another thread, if Vortex had done a FFP version of the 3-15x44 Viper HD they may well have made the whole MPVO idea irrelevant, as a 22.5oz 3-15x44 is the same weight (or less) as many of these MPVO designs, with a super wide FOV (almost the same of 3x as many other designs on 2.5x) and the advantage of a little more magnification on the high end.

I should probably stop commenting in this thread now and just wait and see what the Steiner looks like when it comes to market.
Click to expand...
True daylight bright center dots, or center crosses (like the MSR2 has) would negate the need for a thicker reticle for low magnification use.
 
#217
Glassaholic said:
That is the challenge. Athlon's reticle is close, but I might like the ZCO HTR better, have to wait and see how it looks at 2x and at 10x but that's the closest. I
Click to expand...
It does look quite good that reticle, it should be fairly well usable on low power even without illumination.
I wonder if it'll use diffractive illumination to make it super bright, the illuminated areas is quite small so it likely is.

Guns&WhiteWater said:
True daylight bright center dots, or center crosses (like the MSR2 has) would negate the need for a thicker reticle for low magnification use.
Click to expand...
I agree, but you really need to do diffractive or fibre optic (then dual focal plane) for it to be true daylight bright, which adds cost and complexity.
It is a solution that clearly does work but I don't like needing to rely on illumination to be able to use my reticle.

I know at 2.5x or 3x you don't need reticle illumination to have a properly usable FFP reticle, but perhaps <2.5x is just a bridge too far.
 
#220
I'm also going to add some negativity sadly.

I'm holding out hope that this is a great scope, but I've been disappointed in steiner qc lately.

My experience with them started 8 months(ish) ago. I bought a t6xi 3-18 with an msr2. It was an incredible scope for the money except I didn't care for the reticle so I sold it to fund an scr2 version whenever I found a deal. Got an scr2 and it looked like crap. Sent it back and they sent me another that looked a little less like crap.

The inconsisties with the turret and mag ring stiffness, the image quality, and the CA leave me wondering what the point is in buying american made. It almost feels like steiner doesn't want me to buy scopes from them lol.

I really want to like it but I'm tired of hoping for a good one. Seems like I'll probably be selling the t6 for an nx8.

Point of the rant is, I'm not so much worried about the reticle, but more so about getting an actual good scope from them without having to go through half a year of sending scopes back to them to have them replaced.

Just my limited experience.
 
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#221
zero0zero said:
I'm also going to add some negativity sadly.

I'm holding out hope that this is a great scope, but I've been disappointed in steiner qc lately.

My experience with them started 8 months(ish) ago. I bought a t6xi 3-18 with an msr2. It was an incredible scope for the money except I didn't care for the reticle so I sold it to fund an scr2 version whenever I found a deal. Got an scr2 and it looked like crap. Sent it back and they sent me another that looked a little less like crap.

The inconsisties with the turret and mag ring stiffness, the image quality, and the CA leave me wondering what the point is in buying american made. It almost feels like steiner doesn't want me to buy scopes from them lol.

I really want to like it but I'm tired of hoping for a good one. Seems like I'll probably be selling the t6 for an nx8.

Point of the rant is, I'm not so much worried about the reticle, but more so about getting an actual good scope from them without having to go through half a year of sending scopes back to them to have them replaced.

Just my limited experience.
Click to expand...
That is sad to hear about one scope to the next seeming like completely different scopes. That isn't the first time I've experienced that phenomenon in this industry tho. How did you find the scr2 when compared to the msr2?
 
#223
The H6xi appears to have the same turrets found on the T6xi 1-6. Good turrets and very low profile with an idiot proof zero stop. That said, make sure the screws are tightened down properly, I had one or two times the elevation turret slipped on me, or missed a click when dialing.
 
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#224
C_Does said:
That is sad to hear about one scope to the next seeming like completely different scopes. That isn't the first time I've experienced that phenomenon in this industry tho. How did you find the scr2 when compared to the msr2?
Click to expand...
It's a little on the thin side, but I like the design.

5RWill said:
Mine has been very impressive for what i paid. The turrets leave a lot to be desired though.
Click to expand...

I will say that for the price I paid it is good. I don't think this scope is worth what alot of places have it listed at though.
 
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#229
PBWalsh said:


He talks about the reticle at around the 4:00 mark. States its good from 7-12x and you may need to use the illumination below that.
Click to expand...

The scr is very challenging to use at 3x in the t5xi 3-15. I'd say 4-5x at bare minimum is where it's really in the minimum usable mag range. Here's that review to give you a reference on that.


 
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#230
blue_ridge said:
Chicom options - Athlon 2-12x, Swampfox 2-12x, 2-10x, Freeworld options - Leup MK4 2.5-10x, MK5 2-10x. Starting to believe all 5 of these are better than the Steiner depending on your budget.
Click to expand...
Without getting my hands on the h6xi,I won't agree or disagree just yet. I can vouge for all the other scopes you mentioned, and can agree that they all serve their intended roles at those intended price points extremely well. Even the newer swampfox warhawk (or whatever it's called) is a pretty serious option for anyone looking for a chunkier,very well sorted 2-10 that is really inexpensive. To touch on the mk4hd, I have been very happy with mine so far. Here is a sneak peak at that...

 
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#234
jbuck88 said:
That's about right. All the guys who pound their first demanding ffp scopes in this mag range then act surprised when it is hard to see. FFP is a huge compromise in that mag range.
Click to expand...
Bushnell 3-12 LRHS got it right. It’s not that complex, put a donut in it and illuminate it. Mfgs are inept imo.
 
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#235
stanley_white said:
“I want to buy an optic that is full of compromises, so I can later complain that it doesn’t do specialist things as well as my other specialized optics do.”

-Eventual Subconscious Thoughts of a Sniper’s Hide Member
Click to expand...
It’s kind of the point of Snipers Hide, to discuss stuff related to shooting and compare notes. Sure, it’s normal for people to WANT the perfect scope, but the bottom line is most of us come here to help decide which scope we want to spend our own money on.
 
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#236
blue_ridge said:
Chicom options - Athlon 2-12x, Swampfox 2-12x, 2-10x, Freeworld options - Leup MK4 2.5-10x, MK5 2-10x. Starting to believe all 5 of these are better than the Steiner depending on your budget.
Click to expand...
I've had the Athlon for a while now. It's just a tad longer and heavier than the Steiner but I do like the magnification range and the reticle is definitely usable for everything except, for me personally, load development due to the 1 MOA center dot. I was out with it today and didn't really have any complaints TBH. I do think the reticle, when illuminated, is a bit thick and looks cheap for lack of a better description. It's holding up to my 308 gas gun just fine.

If the reticle in the Steiner truly isn't usable from 2-6X, that'd kill it for me as well. Maybe Athlon will do a Cronus version with Japanese glass and a hybrid reticle with a smaller center dot or cross hairs along with a death donut for use at lower magnification.

IMG_5990.jpg
 
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#238
C_Does said:
Without getting my hands on the h6xi,I won't agree or disagree just yet. I can vouge for all the other scopes you mentioned, and can agree that they all serve their intended roles at those intended price points extremely well. Even the newer swampfox warhawk (or whatever it's called) is a pretty serious option for anyone looking for a chunkier,very well sorted 2-10 that is really inexpensive. To touch on the mk4hd, I have been very happy with mine so far. Here is a sneak peak at that...

Click to expand...

I'm guessing Leupold didn't put a parallax adjustment in that optic so it didn't kill their Mk5 2-10 offering. Looking forward to the full review!
 
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#239
VandelayIndustries said:
Bushnell 3-12 LRHS got it right. It’s not that complex, put a donut in it and illuminate it. Mfgs are inept imo.
Click to expand...
I do not know if I am quite on board with that. That is a good idea if you have exceedingly well controlled illumination, but msot scopes that illuminate the whole donut are too bright on lowest setting for low light use.

I started experimenting with this style of reticle with the MRAD1 in Meopta Optika6 3-18x50. My idea was to illuminate something fairly small around the primary aiming point, but keep the donut fairly thick and not illuminated.

There were some other flaws in that reticle (some thing that I would do differently), but that part of it works very nicely. I get a nice small and crisp illuminated feature for true low light use, while the non-illuminated donut is quite easy to us on low power across all ight levels.

It is different with LPVOs, but if I were to do a reticle for an MPVO again, I would do an evolution of that MRAD1 concept from a few years ago.

ILya
 
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#240
jbuck88 said:
That's about right. All the guys who pound their first demanding ffp scopes in this mag range then act surprised when it is hard to see. FFP is a huge compromise in that mag range.
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But there are scopes that do have the reticle sorted out.

And it's not just a 2-12 thing, most reticles in 3-15/18/20 scopes are too thin on low magnification also.

Heck even 3x ratio scopes will suffer the same fate of the reticle isn't sized correctly.
 
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#241
koshkin said:
I do not know if I am quite on board with that. That is a good idea if you have exceedingly well controlled illumination, but msot scopes that illuminate the whole donut are too bright on lowest setting for low light use.

I started experimenting with this style of reticle with the MRAD1 in Meopta Optika6 3-18x50. My idea was to illuminate something fairly small around the primary aiming point, but keep the donut fairly thick and not illuminated.

There were some other flaws in that reticle (some thing that I would do differently), but that part of it works very nicely. I get a nice small and crisp illuminated feature for true low light use, while the non-illuminated donut is quite easy to us on low power across all ight levels.

It is different with LPVOs, but if I were to do a reticle for an MPVO again, I would do an evolution of that MRAD1 concept from a few years ago.

ILya
Click to expand...
In owning and comparing most of the medium priced MPVOs with potentially good reticles on the market, I think the mrad1 is my favorite for the combo of speed and precision. not as fast as the PA Glx but definitely very workable. The thick side bars really help.
My gripe with the reticle is the cross is very thin, hard to see in certain conditions at lower mags. i would prefer a .3mil center dot with maybe 4 smaller dots at .5mil from center or something like that.
I have the 4.5-27 version so not sure how the reticle would do at 3x but I suspect it would do very good. The illumination is excellent for a scope in this category but I don't want to have to rely on illumination.
 
#242
Okay, to me, the 2 mil circle of death/donut concept works fine without the illumination. At low power and low light, I have a quickly attainable 2 mil imprint to make a shot. Use case matters most in this regard from my perspective.

If I’m within 200 yards, that is more than enough for me to place a solid shot on game. Since 200 y is rare in my area, I’m good.

When my situation changes, I use a different optic.
 
#245
beetroot said:
But there are scopes that do have the reticle sorted out.

And it's not just a 2-12 thing, most reticles in 3-15/18/20 scopes are too thin on low magnification also.

Heck even 3x ratio scopes will suffer the same fate of the reticle isn't sized correctly.
Click to expand...

The leupold mk5hd 3.6-18 with the thicker tmr reticle in the illuminated version was good. It was probably one of the few that was usable on the bottom end I've messed with.
 
#246
jbuck88 said:
The leupold mk5hd 3.6-18 with the thicker tmr reticle in the illuminated version was good. It was probably one of the few that was usable on the bottom end I've messed with.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Just picked up a pr1 illuminated 3.6-18 and going to use it for my hunting rifle and I liked it a lot compared to the non illum 3-18 I had a couple years back.
 
#248
To those saying there cannot be a good reticle in this mag range, both the Athlon 2-12 and Meopta Optika6 3-18 do a good job at both ends of their mag ranges. See @C_Does reviews on both. The Athlon is consistently compared with higher priced optics and seemingly wins in the reticle game.

That said, the current non-illuminated Mk5 2-10 may be the optic I pick up for this use.
 
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