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Do I need a bubble level?
- Thread starter Jayjay1
- Start date
Half of Frank's point is that it can hurt. Is it better to be set up properly so that the rifle is level naturally or to have a level so that when the rifle drops into it's natural position you can spot it (maybe) and "fix" it.
Level naturally is still level. Mount it at the natural point. If shooting from a bipod it really shouldn't matter. Same guy also said a level is a training aide. Really to each their own and if it doesn't work out.. it's just as easy to remove. Problem solved.
It’s a training tool because you shouldn’t need to waste time when you have 90s to shoot 12 rnds.
You’ve practiced with it so much you know what cant looks and feels like.
Same thing with fundamentals. You should have trained enough you’re not having to talk yourself through them when it matters.
I understand that. The topic is about a beginner learning to shoot. Fundamentals seem like they would be pretty important in this aspect. It looks like a lot of the responses in this thread got redirected towards competitive shooting somehow.
Anyone with any amount of shooting experience should know how their rifle fits their body naturally. Maybe its just me but it's always been obvious when things arent right. The only people I've seen struggle with cant are kids under 10. I'm sure there's some desk jockey out there that has never needed to level anything in his life but that doesnt make a level necessary to the majority of capable individuals. Drop the training wheels if you can.
Doesnt sound like it's this guys first time behind a gun.
Doesnt sound like it's this guys first time behind a gun.
I really don't understand the "if you're not like me you're wrong" attitude that a lot of people seem to display on this forum. It's not very constructive. I see your point of dropping the training wheels, but that's only after training. The OP has already stated that he got a level and it's helped him... so there is that.
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I've stated earlier that I could really care less if you, the OP or anybody else for that matter decides to use a bubble level. However never coming to a conclusion doesnt help either. It's better to flush out a stand point and hear others arguments then it is to always agree to disagree... if you're not here to discuss then why are you here?
I really dont understand the "if you disagree with me then you're a dogmatic bigot that doesnt think anyone is right except yourself."
Were all just trying to answer the OP, and the answer is no, you do not need a level even if you're a beginner. Many of us have never needed one and can still hit our targets just fine.
And many people have found using a level is helpful, so stating that it is in fact unnecessary to use one in every case is contradictory to your statements. I'm all for discussion. We've already come to the conclusion that is has helped in this case, so what else is there?
Dudes that don’t use a level, and just ‘eye’ it ... ??
Don’t get butt hurt kids, we’re all having fun
Don’t get butt hurt kids, we’re all having fun
I think we've got different definitions of "need".
Has he shot without one much? He's not addressing a problem that's developed to my knowledge.
Well I find one handy when setting up the gun on angled ground when one bi-pod leg has to be longer than the other not an ideal way but sometimes necessary . It helps get the gun close to vertical . I set mine up using an engineers level first then set the scope level . It's more accurate than I can pick by eye . What if your ears are damaged from incoming mortars and your eyes suffer from distorted lenses and you can't see vertical . What looks vertical to me is not vertical . Not everyone has the same eyes or abilities .
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I agree with both sides, the level can be useful, but ideally it's a tool to show you how to improve your position/setup/equipment so you don't need to rely on it and you naturally level the gun for most of your shooting.
In shooting sports there are still "secrets" no one wants to talk about when it comes to gun setup and shooting. Sure we all talk about the big things, scope position, leveling the reticle, tall target testing, but rarely does anyone discuss gun setup from start to finish as a connected system in enough detail to really be useful. I've shot competitively in handgun, rifle, archery, and on a national level in trap and I think the average rifle shooter is in a close tie with archers as being the worst for understanding proper fit and shot execution. Just look at factory rifles, stocks are still designed for open sights, no chance of a cheek weld with a scope, yet there must be 1000 hunting rifles setup with scopes for every 1 that is setup with open sights today. Most hunters do 99% of their practice from a bench, but the vast majority have never shot off a bench while hunting. We talk about "follow through" but no one talks about the mechanics of it in detail.
Rifle shooters need WAY more detail on HOW to setup their rifles from start to finish AND shoot, long before firing a single shot. We talk, even harp, about various big pieces of the system all the time but the little things that connect it all together are the real keys, and even intermediate shooters are not getting exposed to them, much less beginners. The bipod is a great example, Frank exposes that one way to mitigate the cant concern is to level the rifle and lock the bipod so it does not cant during shooting strings. Once you do that a level isn't important, and it's a better option because you don't need to check it every time you moved running the bolt.
Another great example is the lack of rotational cant of the buttplate, even on expensive chassis, yet it's a great tool for getting a repeatable vertical gun position. Trap shooters have been doing it for decades, to ensure the shotgun is vertical and the shooters eyes/head are level with a natural comfortable and repeatable gun mount. We hear advanced rifle shooters talk about not putting the rifle into the shoulder pocket but moving it more inward on the collar bone to keep a straight head, it works but it's an uncomfortable bandaid for stocks without enough adjustment. Another example is people still think they need the lowest scope rings possible when the reality is for many face structures the lowest scope mounts encourage if not require poor head position.
Another great example is how to shoot. I've been reading posts here for over 10 years and I've read dozens of posts mentioning pulling the rifle into the shoulder, but the other day for the first time I read one that talked about pulling the gun into the shoulder with the bicep but also relaxing the gun shoulder as much as possible to absorb recoil better with the whole body, instead of tensing the shoulder so the gun "bounces" off of it. Those are the "nuggets" of shooting and setup info that connect the more commonly talked about pieces even avid rifle shooters are not getting. They figure out how to do some pieces correctly, but no one is tying it all together as a system for them.
In shooting sports there are still "secrets" no one wants to talk about when it comes to gun setup and shooting. Sure we all talk about the big things, scope position, leveling the reticle, tall target testing, but rarely does anyone discuss gun setup from start to finish as a connected system in enough detail to really be useful. I've shot competitively in handgun, rifle, archery, and on a national level in trap and I think the average rifle shooter is in a close tie with archers as being the worst for understanding proper fit and shot execution. Just look at factory rifles, stocks are still designed for open sights, no chance of a cheek weld with a scope, yet there must be 1000 hunting rifles setup with scopes for every 1 that is setup with open sights today. Most hunters do 99% of their practice from a bench, but the vast majority have never shot off a bench while hunting. We talk about "follow through" but no one talks about the mechanics of it in detail.
Rifle shooters need WAY more detail on HOW to setup their rifles from start to finish AND shoot, long before firing a single shot. We talk, even harp, about various big pieces of the system all the time but the little things that connect it all together are the real keys, and even intermediate shooters are not getting exposed to them, much less beginners. The bipod is a great example, Frank exposes that one way to mitigate the cant concern is to level the rifle and lock the bipod so it does not cant during shooting strings. Once you do that a level isn't important, and it's a better option because you don't need to check it every time you moved running the bolt.
Another great example is the lack of rotational cant of the buttplate, even on expensive chassis, yet it's a great tool for getting a repeatable vertical gun position. Trap shooters have been doing it for decades, to ensure the shotgun is vertical and the shooters eyes/head are level with a natural comfortable and repeatable gun mount. We hear advanced rifle shooters talk about not putting the rifle into the shoulder pocket but moving it more inward on the collar bone to keep a straight head, it works but it's an uncomfortable bandaid for stocks without enough adjustment. Another example is people still think they need the lowest scope rings possible when the reality is for many face structures the lowest scope mounts encourage if not require poor head position.
Another great example is how to shoot. I've been reading posts here for over 10 years and I've read dozens of posts mentioning pulling the rifle into the shoulder, but the other day for the first time I read one that talked about pulling the gun into the shoulder with the bicep but also relaxing the gun shoulder as much as possible to absorb recoil better with the whole body, instead of tensing the shoulder so the gun "bounces" off of it. Those are the "nuggets" of shooting and setup info that connect the more commonly talked about pieces even avid rifle shooters are not getting. They figure out how to do some pieces correctly, but no one is tying it all together as a system for them.
I don't disagree with you at all about a bubble level doing more harm than good, but how does the average even above average shooter accomplish ensuring their system is true in all 3 axis, without having access to a full machine shop in practical terms?
So my translation of that is the average shooter cannot accomplish it in a practical manner, and even if they could, happend to have all those tools and the expertise to properly use them at a high level, they probably would not have the machining tools needed to adjust anything that wasn't true anyway. 
Not that I want to get serious but just finished a class here in MN, 18 great students. A couple had minor canting issues, most were corrected with a locking down of the bipod. One, lefty, who do to a medical issue could not get straight behind the rifle had a problem, heavy head, rolled over, constantly chased it.
I did a demo with a student rifle on my tripod talking set up, can't, etc. Without looking and talking about the position in the shoulder, and the feel associated to it, I demonstrated how I address the rifle with the loose Anvil 30 head. Talking through it when I stepped back I pointed to the RRS level which was well below my line of sight, dead nuts in the middle. There was no level on the rifle to cheat it.
I talk set up, we adjust body positions, we lock down bipods, problem solved with no extra money spent.
We have 4 hyper sensitive levels in your head, try to learn to use them. Nothing opens eyes like seeing it in person.
I did a demo with a student rifle on my tripod talking set up, can't, etc. Without looking and talking about the position in the shoulder, and the feel associated to it, I demonstrated how I address the rifle with the loose Anvil 30 head. Talking through it when I stepped back I pointed to the RRS level which was well below my line of sight, dead nuts in the middle. There was no level on the rifle to cheat it.
I talk set up, we adjust body positions, we lock down bipods, problem solved with no extra money spent.
We have 4 hyper sensitive levels in your head, try to learn to use them. Nothing opens eyes like seeing it in person.
Oh and AIs have 360 butt pads that also go up / down
Heck speaking of plates most don't even know or talk about raising it in the prone.
Lots of lost art stuff only a few of us speak on, the little things dismissed over time in the chase for speed.
We see big gains trying to focus on making marksman vs just rewarding a touch on steel. I teach, not just stand back and spot while passing out compliments.
It's about the foundation, before you build the walls and slap on a roof. Who cares what color your curtains are if the floor is dirt.
Heck speaking of plates most don't even know or talk about raising it in the prone.
Lots of lost art stuff only a few of us speak on, the little things dismissed over time in the chase for speed.
We see big gains trying to focus on making marksman vs just rewarding a touch on steel. I teach, not just stand back and spot while passing out compliments.
It's about the foundation, before you build the walls and slap on a roof. Who cares what color your curtains are if the floor is dirt.
I spent 10 years in the Navy and a few years after as a machinist, and although I do agree with you that it's not difficult to do this process, the average person without experience and tools would have a pretty tough time getting through all of it. Most just wouldn't want to go through the hassle. The cost of just a precision level alone would likely make it a non starter. Not everyone knows a journeyman machinist. Saying that someone that can't accomplish this shouldn't be allowed around a rifle would eliminate a good percentage of shooters lol
I am also new to the long range shooting platform. Unless you consider 500 yards with iron sights qual once a year long range shooting. I’m also fairly new to this forum. I have made a bunch of mistakes buying what I see guy using in pictures thinking that I need it. I bought a bubble level and slapped it on. I have used it like lowlight says on my first shot then never look at it again while firing. The whole point to this long ramble is that after spending the last 3 hours reading this thread (my reading comprehension sucks) I have learned valuable insight and realize there is so much more to learn.
I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.
If we somehow managed to merge this with the 'dont use the angle cosine function on your range finder' thread, I think we would achieve time travel.
Exactly.
What happens when 2 black holes start trying to absorb each other?
Nobody knows!
The energizer thread, being I am in the airport I have more to add, boredom will do that.
Saw this on FB last night so I thought I would share, after all sharing is caring.
Your $6 levels in your $150 dollar wrapper,
Guy bought a level kit to mount his scope and was surprised by this.
Here are a few questions to ask, the how and why of a can’t, see if a level is the solution to why people can’t their rifles.
1. Improper rifle set up,
2. Improper body position
3. Heavy head, pushing on the stock
4. Loose bipod
5. Pulling it over with the bolt
6. Rolled over head position,
7. Sub par equipment
So I if explain the why and you fix those things, what good does a level do?
Most start off crooked behind the rifle, normally because their LOP is too long, it kicks you off to the side. Next their bipod is too low so they roll their head over. This pushes you even more forcing your your head to the right. When they start shooting the loose bipod makes it easy to start drifting right. The bolt manipulation magnifies this effect, so we see a gradual increase, more right.
Of all these are the most common factors, none of them are solved with a level.
Guys who do have levels that swear by them will say, “every time I look up and check the level is off”, so they are happy to “see” it. Here is where the training comes in, what is the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. They rely on the level to inform them, but every time it says fix the problem, you just straighten out the rifle instead of repairing your position or changing the set up so when you “check” you are straight. You body is telling you, I don’t like, this so it subconsciously moves you to the natural, comfortable position, canted and you keep ignoring it, making you shoot with one eye on the bubble.
If every time you see it’s off, that is what people call a clue. Do they ask, “why” hell no, they say, whew, the bubble caught it, money well spent. I say, fix the problem, training vs shooting.
Saw this on FB last night so I thought I would share, after all sharing is caring.
Your $6 levels in your $150 dollar wrapper,
Guy bought a level kit to mount his scope and was surprised by this.
Here are a few questions to ask, the how and why of a can’t, see if a level is the solution to why people can’t their rifles.
1. Improper rifle set up,
2. Improper body position
3. Heavy head, pushing on the stock
4. Loose bipod
5. Pulling it over with the bolt
6. Rolled over head position,
7. Sub par equipment
So I if explain the why and you fix those things, what good does a level do?
Most start off crooked behind the rifle, normally because their LOP is too long, it kicks you off to the side. Next their bipod is too low so they roll their head over. This pushes you even more forcing your your head to the right. When they start shooting the loose bipod makes it easy to start drifting right. The bolt manipulation magnifies this effect, so we see a gradual increase, more right.
Of all these are the most common factors, none of them are solved with a level.
Guys who do have levels that swear by them will say, “every time I look up and check the level is off”, so they are happy to “see” it. Here is where the training comes in, what is the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. They rely on the level to inform them, but every time it says fix the problem, you just straighten out the rifle instead of repairing your position or changing the set up so when you “check” you are straight. You body is telling you, I don’t like, this so it subconsciously moves you to the natural, comfortable position, canted and you keep ignoring it, making you shoot with one eye on the bubble.
If every time you see it’s off, that is what people call a clue. Do they ask, “why” hell no, they say, whew, the bubble caught it, money well spent. I say, fix the problem, training vs shooting.
Do you need a bubble? Only you can decide. It's an aid that can be useful to me.
If you have access to a multi-week training like USMC Sniper School, or similar, and lots of follow-on training and trigger time, it's probably an easy pass.
If you are living in the real world, enjoying your precision shooting passion under limited time/budget constraints, a level might help you get your rifle squared up with the world.
No it's not a precision instrument, but it can help get you in the ballpark. I like the tube mounted style rather than the ring top style. Easier to adjust it to it's center to the squared up reticle. I think I paid $29 for mine. If you square your reticle to a plumb bob, and your cheap bubble to it's center, that's all you really need.
If you have access to a multi-week training like USMC Sniper School, or similar, and lots of follow-on training and trigger time, it's probably an easy pass.
If you are living in the real world, enjoying your precision shooting passion under limited time/budget constraints, a level might help you get your rifle squared up with the world.
No it's not a precision instrument, but it can help get you in the ballpark. I like the tube mounted style rather than the ring top style. Easier to adjust it to it's center to the squared up reticle. I think I paid $29 for mine. If you square your reticle to a plumb bob, and your cheap bubble to it's center, that's all you really need.
I fully agree all these "consumer" levels are probably not really "level" or precise, and putting a precision level on a surface/rail/scope that isn't true to the bore defeats the purpose. At best they give someone a repeatable position that hopefully they take the time to level to the reticle/elevation adjustment travel. I also agree that ensuring everything on the rifle is "true" is a great idea, with likely tangible benefits, however unlike bedding, torquing bases/rings, lapping mounts, high end optics, ballistic computers etc. all of which can be done with commonly available tools and videos/instructions easily available to perform that work, correctly step by step, what you are suggesting is none of those things. If you want an entire rifle, rings/base, etc. trued to the thousandth of an inch that's not going to be cheap (I'm guessing harbor freight probably isn't going to get you that level of accuracy) and there's probably no resource/guide to walk someone through the process step by step correctly as it applies to truing a gun system from the ground up. Can you find a machinist/gunsmith somewhere and convince/pay them to take the time to train you do to the work, and buy all the tools, sure. Is it worth the expense, considering all the $ we throw at other stuff in shooting, possibly.
i grew up with a racing mechanic/electrician for a father, and work for a company that spends years and literally billions of taxpayer dollars to get one shot at putting something into space, so I can appreciate the right tool for the job, and that fact that if you want something precision done right, it's not easy, fast, or cheap. I'm more mechanically inclined than the average joe, and even I wouldn't attempt what you are suggesting, wouldn't even know where to start. I love learning that stuff, do all my own auto/dirt bike/mountain bike work, make my own compound bow strings, etc. So if I felt I could find a step by step resources/guide/video on how to do what you are proposing correctly and accurately as I have for those other things, I'd probably be the first to justify spending the $ on the tools just to tinker.
I don't think you are giving enough credit to the skill and knowledge to do such a job these days, and the rareness of the information to perform it. I work with a room full of 20-40 something engineers and not one of them can change a water pump or wheel bearing/hub. Neither of which are hard, but if you don't know where to start and can't find resources for how to correctly perform the work it's a daunting task.
i grew up with a racing mechanic/electrician for a father, and work for a company that spends years and literally billions of taxpayer dollars to get one shot at putting something into space, so I can appreciate the right tool for the job, and that fact that if you want something precision done right, it's not easy, fast, or cheap. I'm more mechanically inclined than the average joe, and even I wouldn't attempt what you are suggesting, wouldn't even know where to start. I love learning that stuff, do all my own auto/dirt bike/mountain bike work, make my own compound bow strings, etc. So if I felt I could find a step by step resources/guide/video on how to do what you are proposing correctly and accurately as I have for those other things, I'd probably be the first to justify spending the $ on the tools just to tinker.
I don't think you are giving enough credit to the skill and knowledge to do such a job these days, and the rareness of the information to perform it. I work with a room full of 20-40 something engineers and not one of them can change a water pump or wheel bearing/hub. Neither of which are hard, but if you don't know where to start and can't find resources for how to correctly perform the work it's a daunting task.
And that too is the point most miss, it’s not about micron Precision, it’s about a subconscious comfort. The body will move what it does not like, so knowing “why” it happens works better than just seeing it from the outside.
Again more insanity, repeating the same mistake over and over without the will to correct it because the shortcut is simpler. Buy the hit vs training and repetition, knowledge is king and the bubble is dumb.
Again more insanity, repeating the same mistake over and over without the will to correct it because the shortcut is simpler. Buy the hit vs training and repetition, knowledge is king and the bubble is dumb.
^ This. I am a new shooter, my first bolt rifle was 3 months ago. I would notice that after every shot, my rifle canted a little bit, verified by putting my phone on my scope with the phone's level to tell me if I was level. I bought a bubble level, because hey why not, faster than using my phone. Then more reading, like threads like this I signed up for online training, watched the first 20 or so videos, dry firing, made some adjustments to things, asked people for more advice and am happy to report that my string of shots no longer cant. The past few sessions it's been great to fire a string of 15 shots, and just for confidence take a look up and notice that the cant didn't change at all.
So prone wise, at least the cant issue is gone. The level is still useful to me as a learning aid on a few other things. At my range a few of the ground bays are slightly canted. So table/prone, when I set the rifle down, it's canted. On my other rifle, there's no cant ability on the bipod, so to make it level, I need to put a few pieces of paper underneath one of the legs. Now this didn't help me with looking at it after every shot, but it was interesting to quickly note that the ground/table was not level.
Positional shooting and unsupported shooting I'm still practicing. I'll do dry fire drills across different positions, kneeling, hunched over, different barricades, and I do look at my level right before I shoot to make sure that my feeling of "right" is actually right. It's a confidence booster and a training aid, so that I keep reaffirming and teaching my muscle memory/body on what is level. I know lowlight mentions the brain/head is the most accurate measurer, but I haven't quite figured that out yet.
In a competition, I don't look while under the clock, I assume I'm okay, if I have a string of missed shots, then I'll check did I fuck up some fundamental. The last time I noticed it was due to cant was on weakside shooting, and I never practiced weak side shooting.
Anyhow, so much learning and practice to be done. Hard to learn from just videos, still have yet to meet some people locally. I signed up for Alaska Training for July, but wish I could go much earlier! I really hope that if I keep course correcting and watching the videos that I don't show up with 9 months of bad habits...
Ok I am back in Colorado, off to find out how mountain bikers ride ridges without tipping over, how the climbers stay on walls and not fall off, you know stuff like translating balance to other endeavors.
When I talk about canting and levels in class I often stand on one foot and lean over keeping my balance. It’s fun, enjoy the day off all
When I talk about canting and levels in class I often stand on one foot and lean over keeping my balance. It’s fun, enjoy the day off all
I was an 0861, but had a secondary MOS as an 0341 (mortarman). We used two level vials on the 60mm and 81mm mortar sights.
Who knew we could have just eyeballed it, and let our ear hole do the rest.
Who knew we could have just eyeballed it, and let our ear hole do the rest.
Because after you apply the dope to the sight, you then crank on the gun to level the bubbles on the sight, while aligned on an aiming stake.
Turns out we didn't need bubbles, our ear holes would have told us when the sight was re-leveled from the cranking on the gun.
Turns out we didn't need bubbles, our ear holes would have told us when the sight was re-leveled from the cranking on the gun.
I got one, I know better, but I leave it on there to troll my instructor. This works best if it is aligned with basically nothing, which can be done using natural entropy of the human brain, no precision tools required.
Just doing my part to help push this thread >10 pages.
Just doing my part to help push this thread >10 pages.
Am I the only one wondering who the fuck uses BING search??
Holy cow, are you kidding
In SS School we Shot everything from a 60mm to 155mm without leveling it. We did the sight over the top off the small base plate on visible targets without the entire rig, so you can do it sans all the fancies
I have a question, totally on the level,
Why do movies with doctors. Surgeons specifically have to show us them washing their hands for like 3 minutes every time ?
I get it, they got to scrub them clean, but we’ve seen it enough already with the hand washing. I mean even in Dr Strange, hand washing.
Why do movies with doctors. Surgeons specifically have to show us them washing their hands for like 3 minutes every time ?
I get it, they got to scrub them clean, but we’ve seen it enough already with the hand washing. I mean even in Dr Strange, hand washing.
My home made chassis has that feature it also makes it more comfortable during recoil .
I wonder if Hillary uses a bubble level when she gets a memo about pesky loose evidence?
I'm going to mount a bubble on the underside of the bill, on my drinking hat.
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