DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just another example of gun snobs at work. Guys lets face it if you spend 1/2 as much on a savage you can make it just as accurate as an AI or a TRG (I know flame suit on). The simple fact is money is money. It just takes less of it on savage to get the same accuracy level. Once you do that to the savage any of those three rifles will be more accurate than you are capable of driving it. So the best advise I can give you is build yourself a custom savage rig, replace the accutrigger with something more reliable, spend money on good glass and then take the money you saved and go up to TVP and pay Tom Sarver to teach you how to drive what you have. Once this is all said and done I promise you will be more accurate than you would be if you spent 4k on an AI and had no training.

Just my $0.02....

Good luck,
Merritt </div></div>

So we're gun snobs because we want a battle proven purposefully built platform not a hunting rifle that's been accurized? Why don't you go ahead and keep fixing up that Honda Civic? It will make a great drag car.

Let me point out where your mistakes are.

First, this has never been a question of accuracy. In fact, the accuracy argument is not even worth having because AI only has a 1 MOA guarantee (BTW, accuracy guarantees are like flowers for a fat chick, they're only meant to make the recipient feel good). So if your Savage is "as accurate" as the others, good for you. Accuracy was <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> the question.

Next, you have to replace the Accu-trigger in the Savage. Great, the rifle is so durable, you have to take the piece of crap trigger and replace it. Whereas the AI has a great trigger and the TRG trigger is reputed to be one of the best. Even JRose admitted it was the sweetest trigger he's felt.

Next, where is the hi-cap drop down mag for the Savage? What is it going to cost to put a great stock, i.e. Manners, or buy the Savage with an Badger inletted stock? Sure, it comes with a McMillan stock but not the detachable bottom metal. OR, you could buy the 10 BA but then you're looking at a MSRP of $2100.

And although I agree that taking training is a good idea, I would also argue that good training with a top of the line rifle is going to beat good training with a decent rifle.

So I will ask you the same question. If you're going to war with the most <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">DURABLE</span></span></span> rifle available, is Savage your first choice?

 

[VjjR]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Get a used savage for cheap, spend the rest on optics. Shoot it 'til the barrels garbage then get another barrel for < $100. You still will be in for way less money after many barrels. And as you go you can make other improvements to the rifle and your shooting abilities.

The 10BA you can get for way less then msrp. Half even. But still get a basic model that doesn't have an accu-trigger. I've felt good modified factory garbage triggers. Wait for savages new dbm to come out, which is getting close, or just spend the money and get a cdi dbm now. Either way you can put a savage together with a cdi and manners for under a $1000. Why Not? Well Just because you have these things doesn't mean you'll shoot better. So why spend your money until you really want or need them. spend it where it counts... Optics. And practice. Take your $300 rifle and shoot it as good as your neihbor with a $3000 rifle and tell me whose the better marksman.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VjjR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it 'til the barrels garbage then get another barrel <span style="font-weight: bold">for < $100</span>.</div></div>

Josh

 

[VjjR]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=765505

If not... factory take offs all day from $40 to $90 in classifieds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VjjR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it 'til the barrels garbage then get another barrel <span style="font-weight: bold">for < $100</span>.</div></div>

Josh </div></div>

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

I've seen my share of combat and I would have no problem leaving the wire with my Stevens. It wod perform much better than the pos M16a4 I was forced to clear houses with.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Fuck it. I am selling my TRG folder for a Stevens 200.

 

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen my share of combat and I would have no problem leaving the wire with my Stevens. It wod perform much better than the pos M16a4 I was forced to clear houses with.

</div></div>

When did Stevens come into play?

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen my share of combat and I would have no problem leaving the wire with my Stevens. It wod perform much better than the pos M16a4 I was forced to clear houses with.

</div></div>

When did Stevens come into play? </div></div>
A Stevens is an older model savage 110 with a different badge

 

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen my share of combat and I would have no problem leaving the wire with my Stevens. It wod perform much better than the pos M16a4 I was forced to clear houses with.

</div></div>

When did Stevens come into play? </div></div>
A Stevens is an older model savage 110 with a different badge</div></div>

I find it curious why you pick that particular rifle rather than the modern Savage bolt rifles we're speaking of.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

So I went back to the OP's question. I dont recall him asking for a rifle he can go to war with, that was brought in by someone else. He did seem to prefer a tacticool setup over a pretty one.

I guess the M14 would be considered pretty and the StarShip Trooper conversion stocks the tacticool version. Oh well looks count on a oneway range.

I did get a good laugh at the Chevel swipes. seems to me AI and TRG have converted a benchrest rig to rugged tacticool before sending them out and the price tag indicates they are VERY proud of that work!

Now the fella who used fit and finish as a standard to judge the reliability and survivability. Lots of germans with one hole, usually in the head who argue the Nagant is all the above AND as ugly as homemade sin.

I maybe a bit fuzzy on the origins of a very successful sniper weapon. Didnt the M40 series start and infact still use a hunting rifle converted to military action?

The two arguing over Savage vs TRG remind me of two guys at the VFW on nickle beer nite.

A more realistic approach might be just how much money are you willing to spend on a dependable rifle?

To each their own but I see that standard easily reached a few grand below the TRG.

But hey LCCDI is a consideration unto itself.

To the original poster-
drop a remington barreled action into one of those AI stocks and you will have a dependable rifle in an ugly enough stock!

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VjjR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=765505

If not... factory take offs all day from $40 to $90 in classifieds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VjjR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it 'til the barrels garbage then get another barrel <span style="font-weight: bold">for < $100</span>.</div></div>

Josh </div></div> </div></div>

Sorry, I thought we were talking about upgrading barrels. ER Shaw and takeoffs don't fit the bill.

Josh

 

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I went back to the OP's question. I dont recall him asking for a rifle he can go to war with, that was brought in by someone else. He did seem to prefer a tacticool setup over a pretty one.

<span style="font-weight: bold">No, he didn't ask which rifle he could go to war with. This is what he said. "May want to get into competition up to 1000 yds." "Competition" for many of us here involve more than laying on a clean concrete pad shooting at known distances, calling it "tactical" because the targets are IPSC shapes. Rifles that compete in the likes of RO matches, Tac Pro (if still takes place) and others involve rifles getting dirty, banged around, and occasionally rapidly fired. That takes more than just a pretty rifle that's accurate.

He also said this:

"I am not concerned with pretty stocks etc. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">In fact, I like the tactical rugged hardware</span></span>. One thing attractive on the DTA is the conversion kits."

So I guess we're supposed to ignore him when he specifically asks for "tactical rugged hardware"? Sounds like a go to war type of rifle doesn't it?</span>

I guess the M14 would be considered pretty and the StarShip Trooper conversion stocks the tacticool version. Oh well looks count on a oneway range.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Sorry all we have to work with is a one-way range. No, looks don't count and although the M14 is battle proven, it is not the most accurate rifle out there. It will get the job done, but not as well as others for an equal price. And then one begs the question about semi-autos. I don't recall the OP asking about semi-autos, but why should we let facts get in your way?</span>

I did get a good laugh at the Chevel swipes. seems to me AI and TRG have converted a benchrest rig to rugged tacticool before sending them out and the price tag indicates they are VERY proud of that work!

<span style="font-weight: bold">Please enlighten us to where you get the AI and TRG have converted a bench rest rig. Both of those platforms are purpose-built from the ground up. Designed specifically with military service in mind. So where did you get your information?</span>

Now the fella who used fit and finish as a standard to judge the reliability and survivability. Lots of germans with one hole, usually in the head who argue the Nagant is all the above AND as ugly as homemade sin.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Sure, and lots of Germans were shot at less than 400 yards too. Is 400 yards our maximum allowed distance now? If that's the standard I recommend the Springfield 1903. Lots of dead people from that platform as well. Or if you're going to insist on semi-auto's, how about the Garand? Many dead Germans and Japanese and Koreans from that platform. Is that the best platform available today? You going to shoot a 168gn bullet out to 1K at 2600fps?</span>

I maybe a bit fuzzy on the origins of a very successful sniper weapon. Didnt the M40 series start and infact still use a hunting rifle converted to military action?

<span style="font-weight: bold">If you look at the latest configurations, at least for the Marines and Navy, it's more like a hunting "action" as there is nothing Remington about it other than that. Even the M24 has a lot of work done to it and isn't the best platform out there either (from those that have carried it) However, yes it did serve as a successful sniper weapon. And it has served its purpose. Does that mean it's the best tool for the job? NO. Sure, it can do the job, and I can work on my car with cheap Chinese tools from Wal-Mart, but is it the BEST tool for the job? Absolutely not. And how much "action" has the Savage seen? Has the Savage proven itself through years of war?</span>

The two arguing over Savage vs TRG remind me of two guys at the VFW on nickle beer nite.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yep, probably the same two that served together or have been friends for decades. (or at least a long time)</span>

A more realistic approach might be just how much money are you willing to spend on a dependable rifle?

To each their own but I see that standard easily reached a few grand below the TRG.

<span style="font-weight: bold">We all have opinions, some are just based on experience.</span>

To the original poster-
drop a remington barreled action into one of those AI stocks and you will have a dependable rifle in an ugly enough stock!

<span style="font-weight: bold">Not a bad recommendation.</span></div></div>

 

[jbell]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I went back to the OP's question. I dont recall him asking for a rifle he can go to war with, that was brought in by someone else. He did seem to prefer a tacticool setup over a pretty one.

I guess the M14 would be considered pretty and the StarShip Trooper conversion stocks the tacticool version. Oh well looks count on a oneway range.

I did get a good laugh at the Chevel swipes. seems to me AI and TRG have converted a benchrest rig to rugged tacticool before sending them out and the price tag indicates they are VERY proud of that work!

Now the fella who used fit and finish as a standard to judge the reliability and survivability. Lots of germans with one hole, usually in the head who argue the Nagant is all the above AND as ugly as homemade sin.

I maybe a bit fuzzy on the origins of a very successful sniper weapon. Didnt the M40 series start and infact still use a hunting rifle converted to military action?

The two arguing over Savage vs TRG remind me of two guys at the VFW on nickle beer nite.

A more realistic approach might be just how much money are you willing to spend on a dependable rifle?

To each their own but I see that standard easily reached a few grand below the TRG.

But hey LCCDI is a consideration unto itself.

To the original poster-
drop a remington barreled action into one of those AI stocks and you will have a dependable rifle in an ugly enough stock!

</div></div>

Im the "fella" who used fit and finish as ONE of many factors to illustrate how any of the 3 other rifles are better than a Savage. This is because JRose was saying that Savages are as good as any of the other 3 rifles in this thread. But sence you brought it up, HELL YES fit and finish has as much to do with reliability and survivablity as does quality in design. You can have the best designed weapon system in the world for its intended purpose and let some nonattention to detail, sloppy workmanship, lazy person who is willing to sell his soul for a dollar manufacture the parts and the assemble them and your outcome will be one that is pretty good every now and again. But the majority will need a complete overhaul by a highly skilled and trained GUN SMITH to even start to compete with an unmodified AI, DTA, or TRG.

But what do I know. I suppose some people are just content with "good enough".

 

[notquiteright]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

I realize we speak a lazy version of the Queen's English and use terms that leave alot out.

I personaly dont give a rat's ass what a weapon looks like as long as it does what I want.

If its fit n finish we use then the DTA is 'worse' than the savage in that regard.

Mike-
Actually I see the two old farts in the VFW as a Squid and an Army puke arguing for the upteenth time who's Basic was the shit.

 

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will take my Stevens 200's to any Match, or any battle. Anyone that says they are not on equal footing with other offerings needs to spit out the KoolAid and wake up. On top of the Long Proven track record.. they are Made in the USA.

Fit and Finish seem OK for Stevens 200's ?

</div></div>

Well Ace, we'll look forward to seeing you at the Bash or Cup.

Where's the "long proven track record"?

And the fit and finish? You want us to judge from a picture? No.

Finally, I get it. You are a Kia owner and you think it's as good as a Lexus because your Kia hasn't broke down yet. That's fine, keep dreaming because everyone who reads this thread and laughs knows I'm right.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I see the two old farts in the VFW as a Squid and an Army puke arguing for the upteenth time who's Basic was the shit.

</div></div>

Everyone knows the Army's basic is the hardest out there. It can't be denied.

 

[Mike]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I see the two old farts in the VFW as a Squid and an Army puke arguing for the upteenth time who's Basic was the shit.

</div></div>

Everyone knows the Army's basic is the hardest out there. It can't be denied.</div></div>

Navy boot wasn't hard at all although I wasn't a fan of the lack of sleep.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will take my Stevens 200's to any Match, or any battle. Anyone that says they are not on equal footing with other offerings needs to spit out the KoolAid and wake up. On top of the Long Proven track record.. they are Made in the USA.

Fit and Finish seem OK for Stevens 200's ?

</div></div>

Well Ace, we'll look forward to seeing you at the Bash or Cup.

Where's the "long proven track record"?

And the fit and finish? You want us to judge from a picture? No.

Finally, I get it. You are a Kia owner and you think it's as good as a Lexus because your Kia hasn't broke down yet. That's fine, keep dreaming because everyone who reads this thread and laughs knows I'm right. </div></div>

Hopefully i'll be there, i'd really like to be anyway. Don't know if Tom will let me get away from painting stocks long enough to do it though. I'll represent the Savage crown, although i'm sure there's someone that could do a better job.

We'll see if the 'ol Savage lasts. Need to watch Team Blaster's videos on Youtube from the cup and see if I can duplicate the abuse ahead of time and see if something breaks.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I see the two old farts in the VFW as a Squid and an Army puke arguing for the upteenth time who's Basic was the shit.

</div></div>

Everyone knows the Army's basic is the hardest out there. It can't be denied.</div></div>

Navy boot wasn't hard at all although I wasn't a fan of the lack of sleep. </div></div>

Sleep is a sign of weakness.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Since you are new to this sport, I would recommend that you forgo the decision to buy the top of the line rifles since you arent sure if this sport is going to be for you. This sport is worse than Heroin when it comes to money.

I would say get the Savage or Rem 700 and rock on, Im not a fan of Savages but being new I wouldnt drop a ton of coin on a rifle just yet. Likewise, I'd take a Savage into battle just to cure some curiosity here, but with that said if the world hit the fan tomorrow, I'm grabbing my AI AE (only because thats the only rifle thats at the house at the moment.)

 

[shane45]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

For a starter rig, I think a second hand LTR is HARD to beat.

On the topic of the high end, I sold my AIAW to get a DTA. The DTA is hands down one of the most handy, utilitarian rifles ever! BUT I just couldnt warm up to it so I sold it and went back to the AI.

 

[JWV]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Like others have said, just get a Savage or Remington. Shoot the piss out of it. Rebarrel, restock, retrigger, etc. That is what I did and I am very happy (shilen select, pdc stock, RB sav 2, blueprinted). Now I have a very nice built Savage that I can shoot well too because of preliminary practice. Just don't skimp out on parts. Get the good stuff.

 

[bender338]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

AI all the way

 

[bender338]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Even better AI and then DTA!

 

[lsm62]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

I tried a sako the other day and was Berry impressed.with the smoothness and short rotation needed to unlock the bolt. Also tried a savage model 10 not so impressed

 

[Okshooter]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

I propose this view:

Which platform has seen more actual battle (worldwide) and not been recalled?

Which platform was used to win the most competitions, statistically?

Now, take these figures and remove the various skillsets of the operator.

This would give you something of a static baseline I would think.

Edit: sorry, forgot to mention calibers. Not sure how that would fit into the equation.

 

[idaho1]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a starter rig, I think a second hand LTR is HARD to beat.
How about a LTR in a AI chassis stock. I got one and it has some great features for less than $2000. It's a pretty good way to get started!
On the topic of the high end, I sold my AIAW to get a DTA. The DTA is hands down one of the most handy, utilitarian rifles ever! BUT I just couldnt warm up to it so I sold it and went back to the AI. </div></div>

 

[RedGoat]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DTA has these advantages:

1. very good ergonomics - better than those of a conventional long rifle (those who dislike bullpup probably will disagree with me);
2. shorter and more manageable on the move - without sacrificing barrel length;
3. accurate out-of-box (factory guarantees 1/2 MOA or better);
4. ability to quickly and easily change calibers.

I love this platform. But it's very pricey - figure on $3K+ for the chassis plus $1500 to $1700 per caliber conversion kit (barrel, bolt, a pair of magazines).

Rem 700 is a great inexpensive reliable platform (especially after HOGSTOOTH touched up its trigger). US Army and USMC didn't choose it for nothing. Feels much better with AICS chassis. I like it - but find DTA much more convenient to shoot with, and more accurate in my hands. </div></div>

^^
What he said... The DTA isn't the cheapest platform to get into, but once you have the initial investment made every caliber conversion there after is essentially a new rifle for $1500ish and you get to keep the trigger/scope/stock (consistency) from caliber to caliber.

DTA = versatility meets consistency

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

The kind of dough the OP is talking about, get S & B glass and stick a stock Savage under it, for God's sake. After cranking a couple of thousand rounds through it, trying a few competitions, upgrade the stick. If you decide shooting 1000 yd competition isn't your cup of tea, or flat sucks as far as you're concerned, then you'll take less of a hit dumping a great scope than you will a used great rifle, and the scope will go a lot faster.

 

[346ci]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Start off with a Savage and some nice glass. When you believe you have came to the point where you can out shoot it, spend $3K+ on a custom build.

I'm very impressed with my 10PC in .308, all my bolt guns from here out will be a Savage. Unless I hit the lotto, then a GAP or APA type custom will be in the works. Right now I'm not near the skill level to use a GAP or APA.

 

[justinblake]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Do you guys realize that in three days the original post will be a year old?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Savage? Really? I don't think I can take about half of the people in this thread seriously ever again. Savage gets mistakenly mentioned with some of the best and they fire up the bandwagon.

AI or go home. I would also look at the AE but if you don't mind spending the coin on the AW it's worth it.

 

[truth]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TexasTRG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you guys realize that in three days the original post will be a year old? </div></div>

For the win!

 

[justinblake]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

Champagne spraying!

 

[Mute]

Re: DTA vs. Savage vs. AI vs. Sako

I'll let Mike and jrose hash out the Savage vs. everything debate. As far as AI, Sako and DTA are concerned, I doubt you'll find any major issues with any of these three platforms. Having tried all three, I keep coming back to AI, especially the new AX platform. I like the portability of the DTA but I'm just so used to a traditional bolt platform that I just prefer them over the bullpup design. YMMV. So far, no one seems to out do AI as far as reliability, durability and serviceability. If those features aren't nearly as important to you as just accuracy alone, then you'll probably be more than happy with Savages, Remingtons...etc. I've owned those as well and they are fine for what they are and I wouldn't dissuade you from owning one especially if you're working within a budget. If money is a concern, I'd put more of it toward glass and ammo.