Most people that are very experienced with tuners do not recommend tuners to those with lesser experience.
There's a reason for that.
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EC tuner brake
- Thread starter eric1911
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Most people that are very experienced with tuners do not recommend tuners to those with lesser experience.
There's a reason for that.
I hate to tell you this. The reason why F class shooters use a tuner is because it shrinks their group size after a full load development on 20 shot strings at 1000 yards. Hundreds and hundreds of competitors four different types competitions for over 25 years must be Mass propaganda. You say you want statistical analysis I'm pretty sure the sport itself is already given you that.. you know what I find to be interesting? One guy in the industry with an agenda comes out and says that he does not think tuners work and it turns the whole industry upside down.
If the agenda goes as far back as 2015, I guess that’s possible. As you can easily find posts that far back about the skepticism. It’s nothing new.
Also, again, no one is saying things don’t work.
You’re using the elite as an example which doesn’t mean the same methods work for the average shooter. Those shooters have the proper data to make decisions.
- If you think any of those posts were about a flyer, you have some learning to do about long term shot dispersion.
- If you think learning about long term dispersion and general probability is less helpful than telling new less experienced shooters that you can figure things out in 2 shot groups, you have even more learning to do.
There's a lot more nuance to it then that.
They are doing it to adjust for environmentals during a match (very minute changes).
They are not using it to make it factory ammo shoot better, or to just make a random load of reloads shoot better in a rifle. Completely different purpose than what is being prescribed in this thread.
How tuners are being employed in F-class and benchrest is completely different than the new prescribed use given to them in PRS.
The only data needed is from your own targets, and a set of calipers.
Everything else is pretty useless unless you just want talking points.
Some of the people on here have bought a bottle of whiskey that cost more without tasting it first.
Everything else is pretty useless unless you just want talking points.
Some of the people on here have bought a bottle of whiskey that cost more without tasting it first.
For conversation sake about long shot strings vs short shot strings.
As mentioned before, if you know your rifle and such, and have enough data/experience already built up, you can get away with a lot more/less.
For example. I have been using the 109 berger exclusively in my 6mm comp rifle since it was released. I have found that with the exact chrono velocity + AB custom curve, the data is spot on to 1200yds (providing the rest of the inputs are correct). Multiple barrels and bullet lots.
I put hundreds of rounds into the testing, development and such, and thousands in practice and competitions.
Now, when I want to double check, I fire a single round at 300, 600, 800, and 1k. As long as I didn’t make a fundamental error and it’s on the water line or close, I’m good. This was *after* I spent the proper time collecting data.
That is far, far different then a shooter buying a lot of Hornady 6cm, taking 3-5 shots for a zero, then 2-3 shots per tuner setting and expecting it to be the proper “tune.”
And the Hornady example is a far, far different scenario than a top F class shooter who has been shooting .284 variant with the same Berger bullet they trim and tip, and running close to the same speed, for years……adjusting their tuner to tweak something.
As always, context is key. All three above situations are different.
As mentioned before, if you know your rifle and such, and have enough data/experience already built up, you can get away with a lot more/less.
For example. I have been using the 109 berger exclusively in my 6mm comp rifle since it was released. I have found that with the exact chrono velocity + AB custom curve, the data is spot on to 1200yds (providing the rest of the inputs are correct). Multiple barrels and bullet lots.
I put hundreds of rounds into the testing, development and such, and thousands in practice and competitions.
Now, when I want to double check, I fire a single round at 300, 600, 800, and 1k. As long as I didn’t make a fundamental error and it’s on the water line or close, I’m good. This was *after* I spent the proper time collecting data.
That is far, far different then a shooter buying a lot of Hornady 6cm, taking 3-5 shots for a zero, then 2-3 shots per tuner setting and expecting it to be the proper “tune.”
And the Hornady example is a far, far different scenario than a top F class shooter who has been shooting .284 variant with the same Berger bullet they trim and tip, and running close to the same speed, for years……adjusting their tuner to tweak something.
As always, context is key. All three above situations are different.
Agreed but putting a quality built rifle in their hands wont make them a expert. So we resort to questioning the rifle ? Cause X cant shoot for crap?
Agreed but prs is perhaps a compiled group the worst and best combined. Very convoluted group of guys
That’s a drastic oversimplification. There’s also about 4 different conversations taking place in this thread. And people on both sides keep using different arguments for different points.
This thread is originally about a tuner being marketed to practical shooters.
Take the best PRS shooter in the country, give him a 6cm rifle with some lot of Hornady ammo that he’s never shot.
Have him shoot 3 shots for a control, and then 2 shots each for tuner settings.
Do that for 5 rifles and 5 lots. Then have them do it 5 more times. Same rifle paired with the same lots. But the shooter doesn’t know which he’s shouting at the time. Imagine the rifles were all the same cosmetics.
I promise you there won’t be the same tuner setting that keeps coming up for each specific rifle. The dispersion will show “false” nodes.
Now, take that same shooter with a rifle and load he knows, completely different scenario.
But, tuners are being marketed as if they will magically change things for guys who either don’t load well or shoot factory ammo.
Sometimes it will when they are fortunate enough to land on the right setting. Other times it won’t.
And this is my contention with how tuners are being introduced into the PRS/practical disciplines.
They are being billed as some sort of a magic bullet, to make non-optimal factory ammo to shoot better in your rifle, or to short cut the reloading process. Best of all, it can be done quickly with 2-3 round groups!
Worst of all, it seems to be mostly targeted at newer(ish) shooters, that don't know any better. It's one thing if you are an accomplished shooter that really understands your rifle and ammo, that you've used for thousands of rounds. At least you'll maybe be able to interpret the tuner results in a manner that gives you the best results.
I feel like Billy May's should be slinging this shit.
Really starting to sound like Fouci talking in here.
There seems to be three classes of people that EC tuners don't work for.
People that need more trigger time.
People that can't follow simple instructions / videos.
And people with vested intrests in discrediting a product.
There seems to be three classes of people that EC tuners don't work for.
People that need more trigger time.
People that can't follow simple instructions / videos.
And people with vested intrests in discrediting a product.
How exactly do "newer(ish)" shooters find out about tuners? They're not at most gun shops near the mags and slings. Certainly not at cabelas/bass pro, or scheels.
This is a specific product for a specific purpose. Most new shooters have no clue with Erik Cortina is. I didnt learn who he is until a more experienced shooter sent me his reloading videos. New shooters likely dont even know the difference between F class or PRS, or any other competitive shooting discipline.
Nothing about this product is at all targeted to new shooters.
Feels like the only one "slinging shit" here is you. The product sells itself and continues to sell out. If it was useless, it wouldnt sell and you'd see countless complaints about them not working by now. Instead its you and 2-3 others in this thread mostly beating a dead horse and pushing your agenda.
Tuners are not a substitute for load development....
Tuners can in most cases improve the group sizes of a person shooting Factory ammo....
Tuners will not correct the issues have a poorly built rifle in most cases....
Tuners will not make a shity shooter good.....
The average person should not be adjusting their tuner on the fly during a match until you have thoroughly learned and and understand exactly what you're doing this takes lots of experimenting and testing...
Tuners can in most cases improve the group sizes of a person shooting Factory ammo....
Tuners will not correct the issues have a poorly built rifle in most cases....
Tuners will not make a shity shooter good.....
The average person should not be adjusting their tuner on the fly during a match until you have thoroughly learned and and understand exactly what you're doing this takes lots of experimenting and testing...
My last shoot with the EC tuner brake proved out what a couple of people here have said.
Harmonics "induced" changed and effected by the stock / chassis used. I belive @timintx And @badassgunworks both discussed this and simply changing from a moe to a prs lite changed the harmonics as they said it would.
Changed my tune and opened groups and I started re-tuneing the EC but stopped as soon as I got it shooting decent.
I had forgotten my tool kit and need to make buttpad adjustments to cant and height. May as well get that done before final tune.
Just another good reason to own one.
Harmonics "induced" changed and effected by the stock / chassis used. I belive @timintx And @badassgunworks both discussed this and simply changing from a moe to a prs lite changed the harmonics as they said it would.
Changed my tune and opened groups and I started re-tuneing the EC but stopped as soon as I got it shooting decent.
I had forgotten my tool kit and need to make buttpad adjustments to cant and height. May as well get that done before final tune.
Just another good reason to own one.
The nuance continues to be lost on you. I have no agenda, besides good discussion.
Then why don’t you do this instead of weighing down this thread with the same two paragraphs, said in hundreds of words each time, a hundred different times, that do nothing more than say: “statistics! statistics!”?
I’m beginning to think that you don’t even shoot at all and just accidentally wandered over here one day after escaping from the statisticians forum.
This is what you have done for the past 100 posts and nothing else. Literally nothing else. What I said earlier in this thread was not only true but prophetic. You live to see you own golden words in text. It matters not that you only know one subject.
For the 75th time, I never said they didn't work.
The reason I know your 2 shot groups tell you shit is from testing hundreds of 10 shot groups, something you very obviously have not done. The number of times I've shot a larger 5 shot group than 10 shot I could count on one hand. I have the same opinion for seating depth or charge weight tests. Anything where there has been a change in the system. Rifles don't shoot a particular size group, they shoot within a range based on the SD of that system. The shots fall randomly within that range as a natural occurrence so it's perfectly normal to see shot dispersion, the question is, was that last shot outside of the normal range?
That's impossible to tell if there isn't a decent sample number group to give you an idea of what the rifle is really grouping at. A heap of 2 or 3 shot groups doesn't help a great deal either because they are assessed as individual entities & not aggregated like one 10 shot group.
Anyhow, you've all convinced yourselves that if the results show you what you want see it's all legit.
Why bother testing at all if you're going to make the rules up as you go along?
i think this is the biggest thing that hasn't been addressed yet
New Hampshire to NC to Ohio to Wyoming to Texas. from February to July to November. all with 1 load that was done at the home range
A few questions for this application:
- how bad does your ammo shoot in different locations compared to the home range?
- how much does a tuner improve it?
- how many rounds are you shooting to tune your rifle at each location?
- are you returning your rifle throughout the day as atmospherics change? The atmospheric changes in one day at one location can easily be as much as any location change you describe.
I'll leave this to people who have done it. My only 'evidence' is secondhand accounts (most of them are friends of ATS)
I have an ATS on my RimX. But have only put 40 rounds down range with it and haven't played since as I'm down to only a few bricks of a few different lots versus having a case or two of the same lot
If you develop your loads prior to tuning at your home range to be in the middle of a flat node very seldom will you need to change your tuner at a new location but as for some strange reason there is a huge swing in temperature and a 5 to 7,000 FT elevation change you can make adjustments
I ask out of curiosity, as I've never had a rifle and ammo not shoot when I change locations.
But I'm also not trying to set BR records either.
For "practical" shooters, I really question the practicality of tuning and retuning.
Barrelstroker you seem to be backing out on some of your statements , so for the benefit of the shooters I will show this. This picture is the sole property of Sellars Ballistic Technologies. First adjust the tuner at 100yds using the two shot test using two 73 grains of powder and 74 grains of powder. Once adjusted I went straight to 1000 yds fired ten shots with one powder charge of 74 grains at the plate with witnesses and cameras. This was the first actual group and the beginning of the statistics. Around .2 MOA to start.
Tim in Tx
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I retune when i get throat eroation that effects accuracy
Yes please.
I know you have covered it, maybe I'm a little slow.
But it seems like I would be testing 24.0 and 25.0 at the same time then back off .3g and shoot 23.7 and 24.7 etc. ? Or the other direction actually like an ocw test?
Untill they aligned vertically?
I actually read it twice sober but grandkids and a milk spewing 4 month old in your lap can be a distraction.
I go to the range for peace and quiet.
Not really ,not OCW. I will start with what I have outlined . Shoot at 100yds . Take your normal load and 1 grain less. Aim at the same height on all shots shoot a fast and shoot a slow one shot of each. if the slow hits one inch lower than the fast turn your tuner one direction in a very small amount roughly 1/8th of a turn , then shoot two loads again . if they are closer , then keep adjusting until they are at least level. The tuner fixes up and down so this is what you are adjusting getting the two loads to hit level and you are tuned. Then go back to just the normal loads and watch it shoot dots for groups. later in the day shoot the two loads again , it will have changed ,the slow loads are hitting slightly low again , turn the tuner rearward just a little bit to bring them back level again . Mark and document the settings with temp changes and you are set.
Tim in Tx
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Well now it is clear and I'll print it .
Be interesting to see how it works on an ar barrel, probably the same. . It will be fun to see improvement the EC tuner brake makes on a very modest build.
I can try all kinds of things with these cheap rounds so when I tune on more gun I will have some experience .
Be interesting to see how it works on an ar barrel, probably the same. . It will be fun to see improvement the EC tuner brake makes on a very modest build.
I can try all kinds of things with these cheap rounds so when I tune on more gun I will have some experience .
You should be shooting for the U.S F-class open team.
Can you do that again?
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i haven't either. but i've only had DA swings of from -2,500 in winter to maybe 3,000 in summer
i also know that if it shoots 1/4"-1/2" thats more than enough for PRS comps. never done much load development besides pick a speed i want. might play with seating depth on my new dasher, but not gonna put more than 2 groups at each setting ( .02, .04, .06) down range so it's all noise anyways
I learned this from Cortina and it's worked really well for me.
Once you found your seating node. You seat
.001 back from the longest end of the node. Normaly nodes can be as wide as .006", so you'll have about
.004" to erode (lands) through before negatively affecting accuracy.
However what you do is once (example) every couple of hundred rounds. You load up a few rounds .003" further out and test them. If the group opens up you keep loading your current load. If they shoot a tight ragged holes. Now that becomes your new seating depth.
No need to go through the fuss of loading a bunch of rounds to retune.
Try it, it works very well.
I run a bore Rider throat so I get a little more shots out of my seating depth that's a good thing unlike most hunting p r s cartridges my barrels only lasts about 1,000 rounds. But yes the the Eric method does work
The statistics forums likely have him banned by now, for repeating the same things he googled (and has no actual understanding of).
Please explain the "nuance" of you incorrectly making the claim that barrel tuners are targeted towards new shooters?
"nuance" is an odd way of admitting that you were wrong in your assumption.
A new shooter is a new shooter, and targeting is targeting. No subtlety is implied or expressed in either of those statements, and your opinion would carry a lot more weight (unlike barelstroker's) if you could embrace the idea that you're not 100% correct on every assumption you've made about this product.
There's very little good discussion left here. Its mainly you and 2-3 others who cant agree on what would be considered a valid test.
Buy your EC tuner, post your own results. If it doesnt work, return it. Nobody is twisting your arm into the purchase.
I have a tuner.
You have a tendency to go to extremes. I'm neither advocating that tuners "work" or "don't work". They obviously do something, but to what extent and what the practicality is is where the real discussion lays.
Personally, I think the last things newer shooters need is a tuner. There are many things that newer shooters should put their effort into before trying a tuner.
Okay, I’ll bite one more time. It seems that a common opinion among an ‘elite few’ is that unless you are a top 10% shooter, you won’t benefit from tuners and any number of other more esoteric methods or pieces of equipment. That’s literally hogwash. The implication is that anyone not in that imaginary 10% (that those spouting it automatically include themselves in) cannot possibly be good enough to even know what they are seeing, much less how to make use of it.
Why, I’m shocked that some of us even can find the trigger, much less know how to properly use one.
The point being that just because we don’t meet the imaginary elite category of ‘those that really know what they’re doing’, then we are all automatically “newer shooters” or neophytes that would be better off just shutting up and listening to the one or two of those self-appointed experts using this condescending argument.
And it’s not just in this thread, though it’s been said probably twenty times here, I see it over and over again. It’s utter bullshit and a great way to ensure that everyone knows that you always know what you’re talking about and anyone else cannot possibly know, because, well you know, all-ya-all others are just newer shooters.
It’s entirely possibly that those using this ‘logic’ as a statement do not mean it that way, but the condescension just oozes out of your posts. Think about it, oh mighty experts.
Why, I’m shocked that some of us even can find the trigger, much less know how to properly use one.
The point being that just because we don’t meet the imaginary elite category of ‘those that really know what they’re doing’, then we are all automatically “newer shooters” or neophytes that would be better off just shutting up and listening to the one or two of those self-appointed experts using this condescending argument.
And it’s not just in this thread, though it’s been said probably twenty times here, I see it over and over again. It’s utter bullshit and a great way to ensure that everyone knows that you always know what you’re talking about and anyone else cannot possibly know, because, well you know, all-ya-all others are just newer shooters.
It’s entirely possibly that those using this ‘logic’ as a statement do not mean it that way, but the condescension just oozes out of your posts. Think about it, oh mighty experts.
I recently acquired a barrel tuner to test it’s effects on factory .223 ammunition.
I never realised how barrel tuners could be such a controversial / overthought topic .
I’m just going to happily and enthusiastically do my testing and not tell anyone my results .
What a bunch of argumentative pontificaters , how much shooting do you guys actually do ?
Ken
I never realised how barrel tuners could be such a controversial / overthought topic .
I’m just going to happily and enthusiastically do my testing and not tell anyone my results .
What a bunch of argumentative pontificaters , how much shooting do you guys actually do ?
Ken
Great point, and if your seating depth is off and you have high es and sd it can make setting a tuner a pain as well.
After reading some of the eleatist deuch bag dribble on here I was amazed this morning that I actually hit the target while taking a piss.
Have an ugly target to share, too tired to write it up tonight.
Have an ugly target to share, too tired to write it up tonight.
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That’s very good shooting.
Serious question, what are you showing here?
A 26fps extreme spread is sub .3 moa. So the ammo is performing as it should be without needing to be tuned.
Time to take my lumps.
My shooting went downhill but still show groups changing with the EC tuner brake in 1/2 settings as marked.
I pulled a shot in two groups and generally was having a bad time with ra so called it an early day.
As predicted by some earlier in the thread changes to a stock moved poi and changed the tuner setting.
Since I need to adjust the stock further I stopped till another better day.
These are 50 yard dungen test shots.
My shooting went downhill but still show groups changing with the EC tuner brake in 1/2 settings as marked.
I pulled a shot in two groups and generally was having a bad time with ra so called it an early day.
As predicted by some earlier in the thread changes to a stock moved poi and changed the tuner setting.
Since I need to adjust the stock further I stopped till another better day.
These are 50 yard dungen test shots.
I was looking at your recoil lug tuner system. Seems quite interesting.
So, when the adjustment screw is tightened or loosened, how does that effect the lug tension?
Which way does the lug move or rather apply tension to the action & barrel?
We've had our disagreements on sample number & such but, this is not a loaded question. I'm interested in the mechanism of how it seems to work.
I didn't notice an action screw depicted on the drawing so I presume the adjustment knob has replaced the front action screw.
If the two loads hit at least level at 100yds then it will shoot good and is in tune. That is the message , this providing all else is good with rifle. By doing so you are putting a mechanism in place to compensate for errant velocities. And you know soon at 300 rds your .012 jump to the lands just went to .050 if you shoot it hot with them 20-30 shot groups so just because of excessive heating alone there will be some errant velocities with throat erosion even more is possible I can assure you. If they are level velocity wise it will shoot good , but how will your barrel handle a errant velocity? It will not handle a errant velocity very well beyond 1000yds of if you are using a rifle that is designed to be rigid such as a military rifle then you will most likely not see the stuff we as target shooters with standard stocked rifles that are flexible and light weight. Now stiff is good but my guns are designed to be flexible , for positive compensation I am promoting bending . The reality is most guns will not shoot inside of the calculated vertical much less at calculated vertical with the majority of that being due to velocity variance. The two shot test simply helps you get there with less shots and enables you to check it periodically during competition for absolute no doubt it is in tune. I have tried rigid at 1000 yds shot great but if the velocity was errant i suffered in my group with vertical stringing , grabbed the light gun with positive compensation and shot consistent and shot some of the smallest groups I had ever shot in competition.
Tim in Tx
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