Envision MARS-L Announced - Wilcox RAPTAR Killer?
- Thread starter NGCSUGrad09
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90% of the guys at Envision are pre-L3 Insight guys. The remainder are from several other highly respected companies local to them. I would buy with out a second thought in regards to quality and performance.
@Teflon16 I have used all three: Raptar, MRF and MARS.
Feel free to call me if you want to discuss their differences.
Is your unit a Raptar-S Es (57300G02), or just a Raptar Es( I do not know the P/N)? Assuming by Es Raptar you do not mean P/N 57300G02, which is still supported by Wilcox for repair, I want to offer an alternative perspective to the discussion: you purchased an obsolete product from in-direct channels that is 3 generations behind the current configuration Wilcox is now supporting, and therefore are placing blame on Wilcox when it should be on whoever you bought it from. Did the seller advise you that the Raptar Es was obsolete? Analyzing your brief description of your experience, as a business case, it seems pretty logical to me that they (Wilcox) would not have the components to support repairing your Raptar Es, which uses an LRF 2 generations behind the Raptar-Xe/Mrf-Xe that is now being sold, with half the performance. The suppliers probably don't even make the LRF anymore. If you accept "sorry we don't work on those anymore" at face value and true, what would you expect them to do?
For example, I tried to get my broken Macbook pro serviced at geek squad and was denied service because it was 5 years old, and they told me any licensed Apple repair shop will do the same. I don't know when the Raptar Es was first produced, but I know the Raptar-S is newer then the Raptar and those have been produced for at least 6 years, maybe even longer.
01 S (mil,LE version), 02 ES (civy version), and MRF is current. I think the ones that went on a group buy was non AB, could be 03. I might be wrong.Some of those got unlocked too.
I was told by no one from the group buy that the unit was obsolete .
Is PRG a indirect channel ? I don't know.
What did I expect from Wilcox- a phone call back would be a great start.
After many messages head of customer service finally called me and we went over a test. He talked to the techs that said they think they can fix it and would have me send it in .
When I had the unit ready to send back he would no longer respond to my phone calls , emails or texts.
This leads me to a second answer of what do I expect Wilcox to do - Not lie to me then ghost me.
I reached out to PRG defense who sold me the unit. Customer service said they would call me back next day, no call. Week later a call again and someone says they will put in a email to Wilcox for me. After a month I call again and the CEO says he'll call and then refers me to Wilcox Customer service. CEO of PRG says they are just middle men and " good luck ".
What would I have liked to happen ?
Someone to say send they unit back at my expense and they will at least look at it.
As I said before, at no time was I ever rude or demand anything , I only asked for help on getting the unit to work .
I don't know for certain if PRG is an indirect channel, I have never dealt with them personally, but to me a direct channel would have a business relationship with Wilcox that would empower them to communicate on a b2b level, allowing them to at least attempt to elevate your service issue with a phone call or email. Did you get confirmation they did that?
Based on your description it appears PRG is taking a hands off approach and placing all the responsibility on Wilcox cause it is their unit. I would be surprised if other companies that currently sell Wilcox product such as OwnTheNight, TNVC, GooninGear, Nocturnality, Mile High, etc, describe themselves as "just middle men, good luck", when these companies business model is to fill the sales & customer service gap for Wilcox; that is literally how they foster customer relations and sales. I am not certain of that, just putting thoughts out there, again looking at this like a business case. I can absolutely agree your experience has involved poor communication from Wilcox, no doubt about that.
But if I continue speaking from my alternative perspective, if they(Wilcox) as a company confirmed that they don't have the components necessary to fix the device, why would they have you send the unit back to them to look at? What good would that do? Wouldn't that just leave an even worst taste in your mouth after you spend your own money to send the unit in, have it "looked at" and then returned back to you still not working, because the required components are obsolete? To me, Wilcox failed you as a customer due to the hoops you had to go through to receive the bad news the unit can't be fixed by Wilcox. But I disagree with your assumption they are responsible for fixing the unit, and if they don't it is poor customer service. You didn't confirm the P/N, so I will continue to assume you purchased the Raptar Es, which is an older generation product that is no longer supported by Wilcox. I only mentioned the LRF in my last post, but think about all of the other components in that unit that are likely obsolete (circuit boards, connectors, housings, etc). Moore's law is the real deal, especially in military grade technology.
I want to be clear I am not arguing against your experience, it definitely sounds negative, I just think it is important to look at all perspectives of a business transaction before making such a definitive stance on a company, especially when others on the thread have said their experience was completely different than yours.
Piggy do you work for Wilcox ? I notice your new to the forum and you chose this thread to start posting in.
Did i get confirmation from PRG that they contacted Wilcox? - yes i did, by email.
How do you know Wilcox said they dont have parts to fix it? Ive never said that, in fact ive said the head of customer service and the tech thought they might be able to fix it.
How do you or Wilcox know if the unit is defective from being obsolete ? No one has even attempted to look at it. Maybe a wire fell off or the lens is misaligned.
Why did you say i think they have to fix it, ive never said that in this thread or to Wilcox?
If you read the posts one member said he was happy because they did a warranty repair and a few members said they were not happy with Wilcox as a company. I dont consider a company fixing a product required to by law as a quality standard.
I do not work for Wilcox no, but I do own Wilcox product including a Raptar-S, and have dealt with their customer service. Yes I am new because it was my first post and you need an account to post. I posted because it was an interesting discussion that I felt like joining, everybody needs a first don't they? You seemed responsive and worthy of further discussion so I joined in, I guess I will remember you forever
. I also like business analysis and that is exactly what this is, analyzing your experience. To answer your q's:
-I am assuming they don't have parts to fix it based a few factors: 1) your explanation of them saying "they don't work on them anymore" to you as the reason they can't fix it, 2) my personal understanding of different principles that contribute to electronic components becoming obsolete, such as Moore's Law. 3) The fact that the Raptar Es is 2 generations older than the current device Wilcox is producing and supporting.
-You did say that their response, after you finally reached them again, was "sorry but we don't work on those anymore". I understood that statement to mean they don't support, service, or have the components for that generation of product. This is because if you don't work on the unit, it would not make sense to keep the overhead of components on your books. Maybe my understanding is wrong in that regard.
-You are correct I do not know for certain if the unit is defective from being obsolete, but logically, if a unit is 2 generations old, my own understanding (which could be wrong) makes me assume that regardless of the unit's issue, if they no longer support the product that would mean they no longer have the components to fix any of the issues. Again, I reference the example of trying to get a macbook fixed at the apple approved repair shop like the Geek Squad. They won't look at it to even determine the issue if it is older than 5 years.
-You are correct that you did not say explicitly they have to fix it, but I insinuated based on some other statements you made. I apologize if you felt I put words in your mouth, that was not my intent. All I was trying to do was instill further dialogue and explanation of your experience, which has been accomplished, so there is no need to go back and forth about what you did and did not say. I was providing discussion based on how I analyzed your comments. I appreciate the discussion my guy!
How would you say the Radius compares to the MARS when it comes to purely ranging targets inside of 1200 yd? If one ignores the price difference, weight/form factor, and other extraneous features, how do they stack up?
I've used the shit out of my Radius LRFs over the last sixish years and haven't exactly found myself wanting/needing anything else. Yes it is a brick, but so is the PVS-27 it hangs out with so much
That said, the MARS looks sexy as shit so I can't help but be interested. I use these purely for night shooting if that matters.Edited: spelling is hard after 23:00
The MARS will outrange it 5x. The Radius is not steller in the day but is OK at night. I think 1200 asks a lot from a Radius but is nothing for the MARS. They will both get the job done inside 800 (at night). The Mars will do to 3k without issue in the day.How would you say the Radius compares to the MARS when it comes to purely ranging targets inside of 1200 yd? If one ignores the price difference, weight/form factor, and other extraneous features, how do they stack up?
I've used the shit out of my Radius LRFs over the last sixish years and haven't exactly found myself wanting/needing anything else. Yes it is a brick, but so is the PVS-27 it hangs out with so much
Edited: spelling is hard after 23:00
They have about the same area of beam, just different shapes. No, that 10k is not buying you Vector 23 range performance.
The ability for the Radius to show you the near, far, and strongest signal is way better in range-only use cases. For example, the MARS will not range a 1MOA steel plate with a berm 25 yards behind it on BEST. You would need to set it on FIRST; once done, it will range it with 100% accuracy. Note, I hope MARS adds a range-only mode with this ability.
I prefer the Radius remote.
The MARS has ballistics but will not send info to a Kestrel; it does not pull the wind from a Kestrel and will not update your wind hold based on DOF. So ballistics is a plus over the Radius, but not MRFxe level at this time.
The MARS is not noticeable on my gun; the Radius drastically changes the feel.
I can't say I would repurchase the MARS if I had to do it over. While I've never used an XRF, it seems to be the better of the 10k weapon-mounted range finders. Suppose I were OK with the Radius performance and did not have 10 burning a hole in my pocket. I would wait and let the software mature a bit before buying one.
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Thank you for answering my question! The ballistics solver, oddly enough, does nothing for me. That's why I never picked up a higher end Raptar. I make little re-writeable waterproof day/night dope cards that glow in the dark and click inside a defender ocular cap so I can have drop and wind data out to twelve distances immediately available. Those, coupled with the Radius, has been a winning combination thus far for me. Thanks again for saving me some $$
I was wondering about this... that is a biiiiig oof.
Guess that makes my choice easy
So, I have used the MARS for about 120 rounds of night shooting, mostly hunting. The RF is solid, the mount holds zero, and using it with the spin and jump turned off works well inside 500. An RF mode would be great for using ballistic reticles like an ACOG or Elcan.
I still need to send it in for a SW update, but so far, so good. I hope we see some updates and a version with a Civ laser to help the NV guys find critters.
6MM ARC, TIG, SMRS2.
I saw nothing tonight, so I ranged a 16” plate at 927y and let the MARS sensors pull data. It returned 8.7 Mills. I had five mph @ 270 in the unit (the MARS will not change wind with a change in DOF). Held .7 left, as the wind was at 10:30, and connected off a tripod.
Honestly, I'm impressed. LR thermal shots have yet to be effortless for me. I would not take a bet that I'd make that shot again, but it does build some confidence in the rig.
Next, I will mount the RF over the scope, find my 20-round mags, get some turret glow stick, and call this build done.
I still need to send it in for a SW update, but so far, so good. I hope we see some updates and a version with a Civ laser to help the NV guys find critters.
6MM ARC, TIG, SMRS2.
I saw nothing tonight, so I ranged a 16” plate at 927y and let the MARS sensors pull data. It returned 8.7 Mills. I had five mph @ 270 in the unit (the MARS will not change wind with a change in DOF). Held .7 left, as the wind was at 10:30, and connected off a tripod.
Honestly, I'm impressed. LR thermal shots have yet to be effortless for me. I would not take a bet that I'd make that shot again, but it does build some confidence in the rig.
Next, I will mount the RF over the scope, find my 20-round mags, get some turret glow stick, and call this build done.
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