For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

[MikeMiller]

Yep… if it’s shooting…. Don’t look down the bore! You will get a head case going on! That’s funny!

Guys I rarely look down the barrel. I look at the chamber work and crown work when that gets done. All looks good… it gets screwed on the gun. The only time I’ll look down it is if I start seeing a problem on the target or something else is making me question it. Usually though if the barrel has a lot of rounds on it and you start having issues. It’s probably time to pull it anyways.

Sir, I was shooting F TR in major match with old barrel. Probably 4K rounds through it. They had a guy with bore scope doing free evaluations. He looked down my bore and said it was wore out. I had just shot 197 8 x at 1000 yards with it which is all I was capable of with the 155’s we shot st the time I continued to shoot that barrel with great scores another 1000 plus rounds before changing to faster twist.

Since then I only judge by how they shoot

I clean with patches wrapped on and undersize bore brush and Hoppes 9. Then dry patches. Usually takes 3-5 wet patches. Then three dry patches. Then spry brush with oil so Hoppes does not eat it
Fast, works and barrels shoot a long time. What do you think of this process?

 

[chevy_man]

Actually 3 camps... the 3rd camp goes off on their own, trying to find a happy medium and not talk about it so as not to be crucified by the other camps.

Yes. If the barrel starts opening for me at 300 rounds, I clean it at 200. Give myself some headroom.


We're so far away from the factory barrels that needed 10 rounds to settle in after a cleaning, shot great for the next 20-40, then went to hell again. I do not miss those days.

 

[Frank Green]

Once again, as always, thank you for taking the time to reply.

And, I think you know that the bore scope/barrel change comment was intended as a funny throw away line…but I have zero comedic talent! Lol.

Have a great day, Frank.

It's all cool! I didn't take it bad in any way shape or form!

 

[Frank Green]

Sir, I was shooting F TR in major match with old barrel. Probably 4K rounds through it. They had a guy with bore scope doing free evaluations. He looked down my bore and said it was wore out. I had just shot 197 8 x at 1000 yards with it which is all I was capable of with the 155’s we shot st the time I continued to shoot that barrel with great scores another 1000 plus rounds before changing to faster twist.

Since then I only judge by how they shoot

I clean with patches wrapped on and undersize bore brush and Hoppes 9. Then dry patches. Usually takes 3-5 wet patches. Then three dry patches. Then spry brush with oil so Hoppes does not eat it
Fast, works and barrels shoot a long time. What do you think of this process?

Frist off as already has been mentioned.... not everyone looking down a barrel knows what they are looking at.

The thing with what your saying is this... you are paying attention to the gun/barrel and your taking care of it etc...learn how to read it. It will tell you what is going on... you just have to learn how to read it.

3-5 wet patches? If that's all it's taking you and the gun is shooting. I've got nothing to say.

I get the bore wet with patches till they come out clean. Leave the gun sit overnight with the muzzle down/pitched attitude so the garbage runs towards the muzzle. No dry patches. If your dry patching the bore your taking the cleaner out (Hoppes). Let it do it's job. Come back the next day and run a couple more wet patches down the bore. You will probably fine more fouling will come out. Especially as the barrel wears and is getting rougher. I do this process till the patches come out clean. Then I put the gun away.

to recap what is in the M40a1 manual...."After a weapon has been fired, it must be cleaned for at least three consecutive days. For several days after firing, check the rifle for corrosion and fouling by running a clean patch thru the bore ( I would use a wet patch of Hoppes not just a dry patch). Graphite and carbon deposits will sweat from the pores of the metal for three days, thus the need for repeated cleaning.”

I don't know about three days exactly but like I said, the barrel will sweat per se.

 

[kthomas]

It's weird how you get these two emergent camps of shooters. Camp 1 takes great pride in cleaning to the point of ruination as some sort of ritual. Camp 2 takes great pride in not cleaning until it's forced upon them by easily preventable performance degradation. I hope to continue avoiding both camps. ;-)

Well, there's a third, more sensible camp.

Camp 3: regular maintenance cleaning, nothing too extreme. Barrel cleaned once a certain round count range is reached.

 

[Frank Green]

Thanks for taking the time to once again post on this subject.

Question....where in the test barrel was that last pic taken? No fire cracking, no carbon, no copper wash (well, maybe a tiny bit). That sucker is clean.

May I assume that this is well down the barrel toward the muzzle?

Here are some other pics of the barrel with 14k rounds on it. Again it has not been cleaned. This is as I received it.

First picture is at the case mouth junction. Sorry the pic's are a little blurry....

Next picture is just past the throat area of the chamber....

Last picture is 3.5" up from the breech face.

As you go towards the muzzle like normal it gets better looking.

Later, Frank

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This is like

Frist off as already has been mentioned.... not everyone looking down a barrel knows what they are looking at.

The thing with what your saying is this... you are paying attention to the gun/barrel and your taking care of it etc...learn how to read it. It will tell you what is going on... you just have to learn how to read it.

3-5 wet patches? If that's all it's taking you and the gun is shooting. I've got nothing to say.

I get the bore wet with patches till they come out clean. Leave the gun sit overnight with the muzzle down/pitched attitude so the garbage runs towards the muzzle. No dry patches. If your dry patching the bore your taking the cleaner out (Hoppes). Let it do it's job. Come back the next day and run a couple more wet patches down the bore. You will probably fine more fouling will come out. Especially as the barrel wears and is getting rougher. I do this process till the patches come out clean. Then I put the gun away.

to recap what is in the M40a1 manual...."After a weapon has been fired, it must be cleaned for at least three consecutive days. For several days after firing, check the rifle for corrosion and fouling by running a clean patch thru the bore ( I would use a wet patch of Hoppes not just a dry patch). Graphite and carbon deposits will sweat from the pores of the metal for three days, thus the need for repeated cleaning.”

I don't know about three days exactly but like I said, the barrel will sweat per se.

Keep in mind the M40a1's were phased out in the 90's. Alot of the info in there was super dated, most likely written by officers who barely know what end the bullet comes out like most TMs. I think the last war they were used in was Desert Storm, where corrosion was not so much an issue. Most of the senior leadership were about retirement age and either had some Jungle time (Vietnam, Panama, South American secret wars) so maybe they were just repeating what they learned on how to keep a barrel from corroding in a hot and humid jungle where you cant really dry anything out. The understanding of internal ballistics, metalurgy, ect was also much less understood than it is today.

The Marine Corps always had a shitty training ammo budget, and being the smallest component, kinda followed what big army and even CRANE/NSW did. Doesn't suprise me they would have them shooting 1 day and cleaning for 3. Much cheaper and provides busy work. Better than painting rocks or picking butts out of the grass i guess.

 

[lash]

<snip> After I clean my barrel… I’ll run a patches of Hoppe’s down the bore. It will protect as good as any oil as well as it keeps cleaning. Just dry patch it (depending on how long it sat I will run a fresh wet patch down the bore) before shooting it. Also I’ve used CLP in the past to protect the bore but don’t use it anymore for the bore. Just the moving parts on some of the gun.

I always appreciate your input on this subject as there are always plenty of opinions to be heard. Yours is respected by me.

I’ll admit to being a ‘boomer’ and have always used just Hoppes 9, as that worked when I was young and works today too. I’ve seen no reason to go in for the latest greatest $10/ounce wonder cleaner. Like you, I always finish with a wet patch of Hoppes. It continues to work for me, even here in Florida, where humidity is a constant.

I will make a change though, and that is the follow up wet patches. Even this old dog can be taught a new trick with the right incentive.

Finally, being that weird guy who doesn’t give a shit, my favorite hat is still this poor worn out sad Hoppes hat that I’ve yet to be able to find a replacement for, lol.

 

[Frank Green]

This is like

Keep in mind the M40a1's were phased out in the 90's. Alot of the info in there was super dated, most likely written by officers who barely know what end the bullet comes out like most TMs. I think the last war they were used in was Desert Storm, where corrosion was not so much an issue. Most of the senior leadership were about retirement age and either had some Jungle time (Vietnam, Panama, South American secret wars) so maybe they were just repeating what they learned on how to keep a barrel from corroding in a hot and humid jungle where you cant really dry anything out. The understanding of internal ballistics, metalurgy, ect was also much less understood than it is today.

The Marine Corps always had a shitty training ammo budget, and being the smallest component, kinda followed what big army and even CRANE/NSW did. Doesn't suprise me they would have them shooting 1 day and cleaning for 3. Much cheaper and provides busy work. Better than painting rocks or picking butts out of the grass i guess.

Yes I know that gun was phased out back then and it's been awhile etc...

but....

Powder, primers, bullets, cases etc... all the same principles still apply when you pull the trigger and light that round off. Doesn't matter if it's a 308w, 300wm or a 6.5CM or a 243win.

Although I might agree with it a 100% it is pretty much spot on.

 

[MikeMiller]

Frist off as already has been mentioned.... not everyone looking down a barrel knows what they are looking at.

The thing with what your saying is this... you are paying attention to the gun/barrel and your taking care of it etc...learn how to read it. It will tell you what is going on... you just have to learn how to read it.

3-5 wet patches? If that's all it's taking you and the gun is shooting. I've got nothing to say.

I get the bore wet with patches till they come out clean. Leave the gun sit overnight with the muzzle down/pitched attitude so the garbage runs towards the muzzle. No dry patches. If your dry patching the bore your taking the cleaner out (Hoppes). Let it do it's job. Come back the next day and run a couple more wet patches down the bore. You will probably fine more fouling will come out. Especially as the barrel wears and is getting rougher. I do this process till the patches come out clean. Then I put the gun away.

to recap what is in the M40a1 manual...."After a weapon has been fired, it must be cleaned for at least three consecutive days. For several days after firing, check the rifle for corrosion and fouling by running a clean patch thru the bore ( I would use a wet patch of Hoppes not just a dry patch). Graphite and carbon deposits will sweat from the pores of the metal for three days, thus the need for repeated cleaning.”

I don't know about three days exactly but like I said, the barrel will sweat per se.

Frank the patches are pushed tightly against the bore by the slightly undersized bore brush. That’s why they are so effective. It also helps to have a very good hand lapped barrel. On the rougher barrels it takes a bunch more patches

This is how I have cleaned after every National and International Match I have shot in. It has worked well. Your barrels have always done well for me cleaned this way

I just watch barrel until I start getting unexplained fliers. Then I will use some JB Bore compound to try and help. If that does not do it I replace barrel. Keep in mind I shoot mostly 308 Win

I remember being taught the three day cleaning years ago in sniper school. I did that for about twenty years. Honestly this works about the same

 

[kthomas]

Frank the patches are pushed tightly against the bore by the slightly undersized bore brush. That’s why they are so effective. It also helps to have a very good hand lapped barrel. On the rougher barrels it takes a bunch more patches

This is how I have cleaned after every National and International Match I have shot in. It has worked well. Your barrels have always done well for me cleaned this way

I just watch barrel until I start getting unexplained fliers. Then I will use some JB Bore compound to try and help. If that does not do it I replace barrel. Keep in mind I shoot mostly 308 Win

I remember being taught the three day cleaning years ago in sniper school. I did that for about twenty years. Honestly this works about the same

I also wrap patches around an undersized bore brush. Works extremely well, and usually doesn't require the use of many patches to get the barrel clean.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Good thread. Several years ago I was at a McMillan class and their gunsmiths went through the process of how they cleaned their rifles. In lieu of using patches they used AB Dick cotton pads wrapped around a Parker-Hale jag. First step was to remove the carbon then go after the copper and have been using that system ever since. . They absorb and hold solvent better than patches and really soaks the bore with solvent. In addition, they are great for the final runs through the bore dry. I have been using BT products for several years now on all my rifles including my F Class rifles which are cleaned after every match without any issues yet. That being said I live in southern NM where the humidity is very low. I check with a Hawkeye bore scope after every cleaning.

 

[Frank Green]

I also wrap patches around an undersized bore brush. Works extremely well, and usually doesn't require the use of many patches to get the barrel clean.

I do that as well. I’ll use an undersize brush or a worn out one and roll the patch around the brush. I do this when for some reason I don’t have my Parker Hale jags around etc…

Were on the same page!

 

[Frank Green]

So as an update. I did talk on the phone with the owner of the barrel today before I left work. He also has seen the thread here on the hide. He was super cool to talk to and he gave me more info.

For one he says the barrel still hammers. Which totally shocked me! It was the first barrel he had looked down with a bore scope on a suggestion from a friend and was shocked at what he seen himself. So for a funny…. Back to what we said earlier… if it’s shooting don’t look down the bore. Lol!

If I recall correctly he did say he did use the Thorroclean one time with a brush and hand rotated the cleaning rod in the throat area of the barrel. That totally explains the marks going across the lands and the grooves. So not just to the owner of the barrel but to everyone reading this and the reasons why I started this thread. He only did that one time with the brush and cleaner in the throat area and see what it did. Now imagine a shooter doing this multiple times or god forbid chuck the cleaning rod into a drill and spinning it at 3000rpm?

When he described to me how he was using the other solvents… he was doing what he thought was right to remove the other cleaner prior to using a different one. My guess is and from what I’ve seen in the past… guys think they dry patched the bore x amount of times or ran a a hole patch down the bore but I don’t think we always completely remove left over solvents. That leads me to believe that it is a chemical reaction between not just the cleaners but with the fouling and that caused the pitting.

So thanks to the owner for the additional information he supplied!

Later, Frank

 

[MikeMiller]

Frank in short there are many barrel makers but I have never found a better barrel than yours in 63 years and countless barrels worn out. Your are the best. So glad George turned me onto your barrels when you first came to market

 

[spife7980]

My guess is and from what I’ve seen in the past… guys think they dry patched the bore x amount of times or ran a a hole patch down the bore but I don’t think we always completely remove left over solvents. That leads me to believe that it is a chemical reaction between not just the cleaners but with the fouling and that caused the pitting.

Agreed on that, it wasn’t until I got a bore scope that I realized how wet I was leaving the bore and chamber.

 

[Baron23]

Agreed on that, it wasn’t until I got a bore scope that I realized how wet I was leaving the bore and chamber.

Yeah, I see guys say things like "I run 3 dry patches afterward and put it in the safe". Now, if that's what they want to do to their barrel and it works for them, I have nothing to say.

But I bet I got thru at least a dozen dry patches until they come out completely clean and dry, then run a patch or two of BC Gun Scrubber or similar, then a very light coating of oil if the rifle is going to be set aside for a bit.

OCD...probably. But, I'm retired and I've always remembered a friend of mine's answer to his therapist when asked what he thought an obsession was. His answer: "ah...something to do?" LOL

 

[Frank Green]

Frank in short there are many barrel makers but I have never found a better barrel than yours in 63 years and countless barrels worn out. Your are the best. So glad George turned me onto your barrels when you first came to market

Thanks bud for the nice comments and using our sticks! That goes out to everyone!

 

[R_A_W]

I'm pulling a factory 24” stainless 700 5R .308 barrel that wasn’t quite shot out for something much heavier. I actually wanted to try an abrasive after recently watching @Frank Green on Cortina’s podcast, then I saw this thread & thought “what the hell, why not.” So I bought some Iosso Bore Cleaner & went to town.

I wrapped an Outter's sythetic patch the full length of a .30cal nylon brush, so that the brush could not contact the bore directly. I soaked the patch in Slip 2000 Carbon Killer, applied a reasonable amount of Iosso Bore Cleaner, then ran it through the barrel 20 times. I did not allow the patch/brush to exit the barrel, I did not use a bore guide, & I did not let the solvents sit in the barrel for longer than 15 minutes.

1) I expected there to be more damage throughout the barrel & did not expect so much damage to be concentrated in the throat. There is much less damage after 2” & it is mostly lighter scoring on/to the lands. Not using a bore guide could have exacerbated the throat damage, but I don’t think that’s enough to fully explain it. I wonder if the steel nearer to the chamber has become slightly more brittle or fragile over 1,500 rounds of use & was more easily scored?

2) I didn’t expect the corrosion to be so defined or concentrated. It's possible the 2 cleaning agents reacted with one another, worsening the effects. I definitely didn’t expect the location @ 5” from the breech.

3) Prior to this, the only solvents used on this barrel are Hoppe’s No. 9, Shooter’s Choice MC #7 & Shooter’s Choice Copper Remover.

4) This is the first time I’ve ever used an abrasive cleaner. Unless I’m doing a similar test or demonstration for a friend, this is the last barrel I’ll ever use an abrasive cleaner on.

Clip of the throat damage


Clip of some new corrosion 5" from breech


Unfortunately, the pre-Iosso photo is the best one I have, which was taken 3 months ago without cleaning & ~500 rounds prior to the Iosso. If I have time, I might shoot some groups before the barrel swap & then use Iosso again with an unprotected copper brush to see how much worse I can make it. What’s the over/under on 1.5 MOA groups?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Cheap bore scopes are one of the worst things to ever happen to this discipline. Now people sit around and dont have to shoot to bitch and complain about looking at things they don't understand, that usually don't mean anything in relation to putting bullets on target.

If I compared what my chamber and bore looks like (just scoped an hour ago after cleaning for shits n gigles) it looks way worse than anything posted in here so far. Yet it shoots sub 3/8" and the random load I threw together for the match this weekend was about 6.5 SD/22 ES over a 20 shot group, with no tuning or anything. Just picked a random CBTO and loaded her up. But my borescope says I should be shooting 8 inch groups.

 

[R_A_W]

Upload a pic @DeathBeforeDismount

My barrel may still shoot great after this, I have no idea.

IMO, my barrel actually looked pretty great before the Iosso, but it is a .308 with only 1,500 rounds on it. 70-80% of that damage wasn’t there before this Iosso test. Although groups had opened up a slight bit, my decision to pull it is solely due to 1) how fast it heats up and 2) balance.

 

[KYAggie]

Cheap bore scopes are one of the worst things to ever happen to this discipline.

Depends which side of the equation you are on; consumer or barrel maker . For sure, the worse looking barrels I have, a 42 year old 7 mag Ruger and a 1898 30-40 Krag, both shoot well within what I need them to. You wouldn’t know it by looking down the barrels with a Teslong though.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Upload a pic @DeathBeforeDismount

My barrel may still shoot great after this, I have no idea.

IMO, my barrel actually looked pretty great before the Iosso, but it is a .308 with only 1,500 rounds on it. 70-80% of that damage wasn’t there before this Iosso test. Although groups had opened up a slight bit, my decision to pull it is solely due to 1) how fast it heats up and 2) balance.

Its already put away. Mostly looking for any formation or existing carbon ring, which i have not been able to find since moving to H4350. The grooves still look dark/black even with patches coming out clean and the chamber has yellow/orange shit all in it. I did do a bore mop soak so its a bit better but the point is, gun shoots well, brass looks great. Borescope says another story.

 

[R_A_W]

Varget is literally the only reason I own a bore scope

 

[Baron23]

I'm pulling a factory 24” stainless 700 5R .308 barrel that wasn’t quite shot out for something much heavier. I actually wanted to try an abrasive after recently watching @Frank Green on Cortina’s podcast, then I saw this thread & thought “what the hell, why not.” So I bought some Iosso Bore Cleaner & went to town.

I wrapped an Outter's sythetic patch the full length of a .30cal nylon brush, so that the brush could not contact the bore directly. I soaked the patch in Slip 2000 Carbon Killer, applied a reasonable amount of Iosso Bore Cleaner, then ran it through the barrel 20 times. I did not allow the patch/brush to exit the barrel, I did not use a bore guide, & I did not let the solvents sit in the barrel for longer than 15 minutes.

1) I expected there to be more damage throughout the barrel & did not expect so much damage to be concentrated in the throat. There is much less damage after 2” & it is mostly lighter scoring on/to the lands. Not using a bore guide could have exacerbated the throat damage, but I don’t think that’s enough to fully explain it. I wonder if the steel nearer to the chamber has become slightly more brittle or fragile over 1,500 rounds of use & was more easily scored?

2) I didn’t expect the corrosion to be so defined or concentrated. It's possible the 2 cleaning agents reacted with one another, worsening the effects. I definitely didn’t expect the location @ 5” from the breech.

3) Prior to this, the only solvents used on this barrel are Hoppe’s No. 9, Shooter’s Choice MC #7 & Shooter’s Choice Copper Remover.

4) This is the first time I’ve ever used an abrasive cleaner. Unless I’m doing a similar test or demonstration for a friend, this is the last barrel I’ll ever use an abrasive cleaner on.

Clip of the throat damage


Clip of some new corrosion 5" from breech


Unfortunately, the pre-Iosso photo is the best one I have, which was taken 3 months ago without cleaning & ~500 rounds prior to the Iosso. If I have time, I might shoot some groups before the barrel swap & then use Iosso again with an unprotected copper brush to see how much worse I can make it. What’s the over/under on 1.5 MOA groups?

In numerous posts, @Frank Green has repeatedly stated that Rem 40X (very mild) and JB Bore Compound (blue label and somewhat mild) are the only two he recommends (to the best of my knowledge). And, he has stated over and over to not wrap your abrasive patch about a brush...pretty much of any kind. He has recommended a Parker Hale type jab with the patch wrapped around it.

But, perhaps you already knew all of this. I get experimenting with an old barrel...but, 308 and only 1,500 rounds isn't an old barrel to experiment on to me...but, its not my barrel. haha

Cheers

 

[OREGUN]

Varget is literally the only reason I own a bore scope

Care to explain this?

 

[Rob01]

Care to explain this?

Was thinking the same thing. Been through many jugs of it in many barrels and never needed or thought I needed a bore scope. My barrels cleaned up nice and easy with Varget.

 

[mosin46]

WOW. more great info from mr. green. now i'm worried. been using bore tech eliminator,copper remover and rimfire blend. i also use patch out as i have both. was unaware of the noted problem with bore tech. what is the deal there? can someone enlighten me? i actually always final clean with #9 and am always surprised when i get more "dirt" after dry patching out bore tech or patch out to clean patches. i know #9 is safe. my father would leave it in wet when he cleaned a rifle. never any corrosion in his guns when he passed. #9 was there prob decades in some. thoughts on chamber plugging and filling the bore? seems easier and safe. tx for any info.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

So as an update. I did talk on the phone with the owner of the barrel today before I left work. He also has seen the thread here on the hide. He was super cool to talk to and he gave me more info.

For one he says the barrel still hammers. Which totally shocked me! It was the first barrel he had looked down with a bore scope on a suggestion from a friend and was shocked at what he seen himself. So for a funny…. Back to what we said earlier… if it’s shooting don’t look down the bore. Lol!

If I recall correctly he did say he did use the Thorroclean one time with a brush and hand rotated the cleaning rod in the throat area of the barrel. That totally explains the marks going across the lands and the grooves. So not just to the owner of the barrel but to everyone reading this and the reasons why I started this thread. He only did that one time with the brush and cleaner in the throat area and see what it did. Now imagine a shooter doing this multiple times or god forbid chuck the cleaning rod into a drill and spinning it at 3000rpm?

When he described to me how he was using the other solvents… he was doing what he thought was right to remove the other cleaner prior to using a different one. My guess is and from what I’ve seen in the past… guys think they dry patched the bore x amount of times or ran a a hole patch down the bore but I don’t think we always completely remove left over solvents. That leads me to believe that it is a chemical reaction between not just the cleaners but with the fouling and that caused the pitting.

So thanks to the owner for the additional information he supplied!

Later, Frank

Should people be using alcohol to neutralize solvents?

It seems like an impossible task to get 100% of a solvent that's not supposed to be in the barrel more than 15 minutes completely cleaned out with a dry patch

 

[Rob01]

I use some Kroil on a couple patches after dry patching my Butch's out and then dry patch the Kroil out. Works pretty well.

 

[R_A_W]

Was thinking the same thing. Been through many jugs of it in many barrels and never needed or thought I needed a bore scope. My barrels cleaned up nice and easy with Varget.

Care to explain this?

Uh oh... I'm probably making some rookie mistake haha.

In all seriousness, I get bad carbon ring build up with Varget that I've always tried to remove about every 300 rounds. Maybe I need to switch carbon solvents? I tried the Slip 2000 Carbon Killer on CFE223 in a different barrel & wasn't too impressed. I did buy some Free All, but haven't tried that on anything yet. C4? CLR?

eta: loads are boring... using 43.5gr Varget w/ CCI BR2's. Brass is generally in the 2.007-2.010 range, so maybe a little on the short side? Doesn’t seem like enough to cause a big problem

 

[R_A_W]

In numerous posts, @Frank Green has repeatedly stated that Rem 40X (very mild) and JB Bore Compound (blue label and somewhat mild) are the only two he recommends (to the best of my knowledge). And, he has stated over and over to not wrap your abrasive patch about a brush...pretty much of any kind. He has recommended a Parker Hale type jab with the patch wrapped around it.

But, perhaps you already knew all of this. I get experimenting with an old barrel...but, 308 and only 1,500 rounds isn't an old barrel to experiment on to me...but, its not my barrel. haha

Cheers

Yep. At only 1,500 rounds, the barrel probably had another 2,000-3,000 on it. I decided to get rid of it a few months ago & new I'd never use it again. I also previously failed to mention this barrel has a stupid long throat, so I could only use SMKs. Nothing wrong with SMKs, but I'd like to use VLDs/Hybrids/ELDMs as well.

This wasn't supposed to be some scientific test, just the bored satisfying their curiosity. To be perfectly clear, I never doubted Frank's assertions re: abrasives.

 

[OREGUN]

Uh oh... I'm probably making some rookie mistake haha.

In all seriousness, I get bad carbon ring build up with Varget that I've always tried to remove about every 300 rounds. Maybe I need to switch carbon solvents? I tried the Slip 2000 Carbon Killer on CFE223 in a different barrel & wasn't too impressed. I did buy some Free All, but haven't tried that on anything yet. C4? CLR?

eta: loads are boring... using 43.5gr Varget w/ CCI BR2's

I actually can’t speak to any of this as I’ve never experienced the dreaded “carbon ring”. But I’ve shot probably 20 pounds of Varget without incident in .308 and 6BR/BRA and thought maybe I was missing something.

For awhile I was wiping the bore out with Ballistol. Now I’m back to just Hoppes #9 every hundred rounds or so or before any extended sit. I dunno.

 

[Rob01]

Uh oh... I'm probably making some rookie mistake haha.

In all seriousness, I get bad carbon ring build up with Varget that I've always tried to remove about every 300 rounds. Maybe I need to switch carbon solvents? I tried the Slip 2000 Carbon Killer on CFE223 in a different barrel & wasn't too impressed. I did buy some Free All, but haven't tried that on anything yet. C4? CLR?

eta: loads are boring... using 43.5gr Varget w/ CCI BR2's. Brass is generally in the 2.007-2.010 range, so maybe a little on the short side? Doesn’t seem like enough to cause a big problem

Butch’s and a bronze brush and no carbon problems ever with Varget.

 

[Baron23]

unaware of the noted problem with bore tech

Yeah, you, me, and probably tens of thousands of others who use BT.

I have never once heard of this wrt to BT products and I DO own a bore scope and can tell you that in..oh, maybe 4 years of using BT products very regularly I have never had any pitting or corrosion. I have left BT solvents in my bore (SS barrels only) overnight and even for multiple days. I have plugged one end of the barrel and filled the bore with BT products and left it in there...again, overnight and even for multiple days.

And I live in very humid Maryland (but yes, I do keep a Golden Rod in my safe).

I just haven't seen it. Now, Mr. Green does say he uses Sweets. I have Sweets 7.62 as do many long time shooters. Its main active ingredient is ammonia (5-6%) and it says on the bottle to NOT leave it in there for more than 15 minutes....for a reason, I believe.

In contrast, Wipe Out/Patch Out and BT do state in their directions that their products are safe to leave in the barrel for an extended period of time.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mr. Green. And he and I have spoken on a couple of occasions and IMO he is not only very knowledgeable about barrels (and more), he is also a very, very nice and kind gentleman. This is not a shot at Frank by any means. I think he's great.

But I believe in this thread, in response to my question, Frank said that they have not been able to find a causal link...only correlation...and not much of that, I think. I believe he said he's seen 3-4 barrels year where they thought it may have to do with BT, but the fact is we (including Frank because customers lie all the time) have zero knowledge of what the fuck else these people have been doing to these limited number of barrels (like mixing solvents or whatever).

Personally, I'm not throwing my BT products out anytime soon.

But, its an individual choice. We paid for the barrels so we can do what we wish (as long as we don't screw them up and then demand the manf make it right! haha)

Cheers

 

[SmartDonkey]

I don't for a second think I know more about this than barrel makers-- (and don't use the products in question for this round)- but when you have done something for years and it works good it is normal to be a little skeptic about things..... especially when the exact reasons can't be locked down. So many variables- powders- bullets- shooting speed- cleaning method- climate- storage etc.... So when I see a "don't use this product" it really doesn't mean much to me. (although I'm not questioning the motives- I think it is 100% meant to help people)

Also- differences in barrel blanks. I have received a pitted barrel blank. If it had not been inspected and found before it was ever shot, then it would have been another one that got blamed on cleaning/storage- even though it came that way (not from barrel maker in this thread).

When you look back at things that past shooters did (that was the accepted practice) and see how many of them have changed from what we do today.... I'm willing to bet that pattern is going to continue-- and future shooters wont believe the things that we are doing right now. So unless it is your job-- don't waste your time worrying about barrel cleaning.

 

[Cr1775]

Yep. At only 1,500 rounds, the barrel probably had another 2,000-3,000 on it. I decided to get rid of it a few months ago & new I'd never use it again. I also previously failed to mention this barrel has a stupid long throat, so I could only use SMKs. Nothing wrong with SMKs, but I'd like to use VLDs/Hybrids/ELDMs as well.

This wasn't supposed to be some scientific test, just the bored satisfying their curiosity. To be perfectly clear, I never doubted Frank's assertions re: abrasives.

Why the low round count, i expect a 308 to at least last 10,000 rounds.

 

[KYAggie]

Anyone who want to discard their Boretech products, shoot me PM I’ll be happy to help you; I’ll pay the shipping.

I strongly suspect one of two things happened to the barrels Frank saw that had damage due to BT products.

1). The owners of said barrels had at some point misused a different product and that’s what actually caused the damage. Perhaps the last product they had used was BT, but it wasn’t the only product.

2). They cleaned it once, didn’t patch the bore dry, and let it sit without oiling it. The fouling that comes out of the pores over the next several days combined with the water in the BT and bad things happened.

I do think it’s wise to oil the bore after dry patching. I’ve used BT products for years, but I always leave oil in the bore after cleaning. My go to is Slip2000EWL, but in years past I’ve used Breakfree CLP and it worked too.

Frank, I really appreciate all the information you provided that helps us properly maintain our firearms; it’s nice to know facts gathered from real experience and not have to rely on the plethora of wife’s takes out there, many of which will ruin a good barrel.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I had a thought about BoreTech product being responsible for corrosion. Many years ago I had a factory barrel develop some corrosion inside the bore. I hadn't touched that gun for a couple years. At that time I would leave Boretech product, most likely Eliminator or Carbon Remover, in the bore as a rust preventative. Back then, on the early Bore Tech products, the instructions said to run a wet patch through as a last step before putting it away.

Sometime after discovering the corrosion I was reading the instructions on a new bottle of BoreTech and it didn't claim that leaving it in the bore was good for long term storage. I think it said it was okay for short term protection. Since then I don't leave BoreTech in for more than a couple days.

 

[Jrb572]

It sure does say that. I have an old bottle

 

[Frank Green]

D

Should people be using alcohol to neutralize solvents?

It seems like an impossible task to get 100% of a solvent that's not supposed to be in the barrel more than 15 minutes completely cleaned out with a dry patch

Don’t know. I’ve never used alcohol etc…

I stay oil based. Never had a problem.

 

[Frank Green]

Yeah, you, me, and probably tens of thousands of others who use BT.

I have never once heard of this wrt to BT products and I DO own a bore scope and can tell you that in..oh, maybe 4 years of using BT products very regularly I have never had any pitting or corrosion. I have left BT solvents in my bore (SS barrels only) overnight and even for multiple days. I have plugged one end of the barrel and filled the bore with BT products and left it in there...again, overnight and even for multiple days.

And I live in very humid Maryland (but yes, I do keep a Golden Rod in my safe).

I just haven't seen it. Now, Mr. Green does say he uses Sweets. I have Sweets 7.62 as do many long time shooters. Its main active ingredient is ammonia (5-6%) and it says on the bottle to NOT leave it in there for more than 15 minutes....for a reason, I believe.

In contrast, Wipe Out/Patch Out and BT do state in their directions that their products are safe to leave in the barrel for an extended period of time.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mr. Green. And he and I have spoken on a couple of occasions and IMO he is not only very knowledgeable about barrels (and more), he is also a very, very nice and kind gentleman. This is not a shot at Frank by any means. I think he's great.

But I believe in this thread, in response to my question, Frank said that they have not been able to find a causal link...only correlation...and not much of that, I think. I believe he said he's seen 3-4 barrels year where they thought it may have to do with BT, but the fact is we (including Frank because customers lie all the time) have zero of what the fuck else these people have been doing to these limited number of barrels (like mixing solvents or whatever).

Personally, I'm not throwing my BT products out anytime soon.

But, its an individual choice. We paid for the barrels so we can do what we wish (as long as we don't screw them up and then demand the manf make it right! haha)

Cheers

Very well said!

 

[Bungi]

Does anyone still use "Ballistol" ? I have a can of it, and I use it on my SKS rifles.

On my bolt rifles, I previously used "Shooter's Choice" -- I switched to Boretech several years back, but I use a patch holder, rather than a Jag

I usually end the cleaning process with a patch or two of M-Pro 7 LPX oil

I am now considering switching to the old "Hoppes 9" with a Jag

 

[Rocketmandb]

I am now considering switching to the old "Hoppes 9" with a Jag

My only issue with Hoppes is that my reloading room is my office, and the smell can get overwhelming in a confined space.

 

[jonnybrowning]

Frank - if Boretech and CLP are bad for cleaning barrels, what product should be used for barrel cleaning? A lot of folks are mentioning their favorites, but what do YOU recommend? Thanks.

 

[lash]

Frank - if Boretech and CLP are bad for cleaning barrels, what product should be used for barrel cleaning? A lot of folks are mentioning their favorites, but what do YOU recommend? Thanks.

Read his first post in this thread. He uses Hoppes 9.

 

[MK20]

This is like

Keep in mind the M40a1's were phased out in the 90's. Alot of the info in there was super dated, most likely written by officers who barely know what end the bullet comes out like most TMs. I think the last war they were used in was Desert Storm, where corrosion was not so much an issue. Most of the senior leadership were about retirement age and either had some Jungle time (Vietnam, Panama, South American secret wars) so maybe they were just repeating what they learned on how to keep a barrel from corroding in a hot and humid jungle where you cant really dry anything out. The understanding of internal ballistics, metalurgy, ect was also much less understood than it is today.

The Marine Corps always had a shitty training ammo budget, and being the smallest component, kinda followed what big army and even CRANE/NSW did. Doesn't suprise me they would have them shooting 1 day and cleaning for 3. Much cheaper and provides busy work. Better than painting rocks or picking butts out of the grass i guess.

The whole clean for 3 days after firing thing is a leftover from the days of corrosive ammo where that was the only way to be sure you got the corrosive salts out.

It was a VERY common practice back then.

I think now with the right post cleaning oiling it is not as big of a deal. Use a heavier weight oil is my opinion, for what it is worth.

 

[kthomas]

The whole clean for 3 days after firing thing is a leftover from the days of corrosive ammo where that was the only way to be sure you got the corrosive salts out.

It was a VERY common practice back then.

I think now with the right post cleaning oiling it is not as big of a deal. Use a heavier weight oil is my opinion, for what it is worth.

Honestly I'm not sure how relevant the 3 day cleaning thing is.

I don't do anything like that, and my barrels continue to hammer. I guess I fail to understand what the purpose of such a strict regime is, if it doesn't have any effect on performance...

 

[jonnybrowning]

Read his first post in this thread. He uses Hoppes 9.

I’m sorry but I’m not seeing that. Would you please post the quote?

I did read he runs a patch with Hoppes down the barrel, after cleaning.

 

[beetroot]

Frank - if Boretech and CLP are bad for cleaning barrels, what product should be used for barrel cleaning? A lot of folks are mentioning their favorites, but what do YOU recommend? Thanks.

Didn’t he speak about CLR not CLP?

If CLP and Boretech are both bad then I’m 100% doing it wrong….