You’re right…he mentioned not to use CLR.
I’ve been using CLP on AR barrels for years, and Boretech on bolt rifle barrels.
I’ve been using CLP on AR barrels for years, and Boretech on bolt rifle barrels.
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For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners
- Thread starter Frank Green
- Start date
Old video from Lowlight visiting Bartlein, most have probably seen it already. It mostly addresses break-in, but I think it's still relevant to the thread (there's a Part 2 vid that was done on the production floor which is less relevant, but just as cool.)
I only quit using Hoppes when Hoppes recommended not to use Hoppes #9 on firearms with a nickel finish. Still will use it on a rifle if accuracy has fallen off significantly. I do use a fiber (not copper) brush occasionally (about once every 300 rounds.). Now my major cleaning is Remington gun oil. Below is my Shilen barreled silhouette handgun. Picture it before. Probably only has about 5-10,000 rounds through it. Don't know, shot it for years and that was after I purchased it from a friend who also shot it for some time. Still puts groups around an inch to an inch and a half at 200 meters shooting Creedmoor.
Demonstrates to me that shooting moderate loads and gentle cleaning, can profound the life of a barrel, far beyond what is normally expected.
Put "Thorroclean" in the search bar this morning. Glad I did. LOL Thanks to Frank G once again!
My present routine of barrel cleaning is Wipeout accelerator with Shooters choice foam sit for a few hours. Alcohol flush clean, use a degreaser and patch dry graphite into the bore to eliminate fliers. Clean the carbon ring with slightly over caliber brush, watching with borescope so I don't get into the lands. (Stubborn copper I use "The plug" from PVA and fill the bore with Hoppes black copper solvent. Few hours to overnight sit takes care of any remaining copper.)
My present routine of barrel cleaning is Wipeout accelerator with Shooters choice foam sit for a few hours. Alcohol flush clean, use a degreaser and patch dry graphite into the bore to eliminate fliers. Clean the carbon ring with slightly over caliber brush, watching with borescope so I don't get into the lands. (Stubborn copper I use "The plug" from PVA and fill the bore with Hoppes black copper solvent. Few hours to overnight sit takes care of any remaining copper.)
So after researching the product what is your conclusion on the Thorroclean? The videos would make it seem like some magic bullet to barrel cleaning, leaving a very clean "polished" bore. I don't try to remove all of the color and small carbon streaks out of the chamber end of a barrel, maybe it would shoot better if I did.
Oh I didn't buy it. I saw some youtube videos and although it appears to really strip the barrel clean, I wasn't too crazy about the amount of brushing required. I can imagine it would be a good one time use thing on a very neglected barrel or milsup barrel. It just seems way to aggressive for my new way of cleaning now.
There is a presiding theme about barrel equilibrium lately and I think each guy has got to find what work best. Frank Gs words.
Maybe not true parker hale specs according to patent, but I got some nickel coated jags from Dewey and Tipton.
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This is after a "good" cleaning. Tons of patches soaked with eliminator, 20 strokes or so with a nylon brush, more patches soaked then dry patches, which never really come out clean.
She shoots stupid little groups too. This is why i take all borescope pictures with a grain of salt.
i have a bunch of aluminum jags that i consider family heirlooms. maybe i'm wrong but never saw the sense in brass using copper removers. use plastic if i don't have an appropriate alum.
That's how mine looked after I cleaned it (accept the first pic, that's a little odd), too before I started using the foaming bore scrubber and nylon brush routine. I let the foaming bore scrubber sit in there and use plenty of it, for about 15 min, then do about 20 strokes with the nylon brush. Then jag it out with hoppes 9 several wet then several dry. Then light coat it with oil and put it up. That's what finally truly worked for me.
That said, if you clean it regularly, you don't have to get it stupid clean and as you said, it shoots great so.
I just received my first "Parker Hale" jag today -- Made by Dewey
It does not have a point at the tip -- More rounded at the tip
There are several pretty sharp "jags" all around the sides -- Sharp enough that I am concerned about putting it down the bore.
It appears to be designed to just wrap a patch around the sides of the jag -- But not attached to the tip
Is this the type of jag you all recommend?
It does not have a point at the tip -- More rounded at the tip
There are several pretty sharp "jags" all around the sides -- Sharp enough that I am concerned about putting it down the bore.
It appears to be designed to just wrap a patch around the sides of the jag -- But not attached to the tip
Is this the type of jag you all recommend?
You wrap the patch around it like you’re rolling a cigarette….or whatever you roll. Lol
I only use them for applying abrasive. Got that from Mr Green.
For solvent patches, I use Bore Tech no-copper pointed jags.
Good to know man. I am pretty regular about cleaning, No more than 2-300 rounds. 2 1 days or 1 2 day PRS match and it gets cleaned out.
This barrel has about 760 through it.
I have about 1,200 rounds thru my 6GT (Proof) barrel and never scoped it until recently. I clean approx every 300-400 rnds, stopping when the patches came out more or less clean. The gun shoots .5MOA or better, so figured all was good on the basis that it’s still grouping well. But without a scope, it’s hard to tell how clean it really is.
Recently I’ve been experiencing some pressure signs: a few blown primers and a few cases with an extractor mark on the case. No change to my load which is around 2,840 fps. Some of the brass in question came from a questionable batch of 1x fired brass that got on trade, but it also happened with a few cases of 3x fired (all by me) Hornady brass.
I’m trying three things: The first was to get a borescope and I’m pretty sure I had a carbon ring forming so I went after that with some C4 soaked on a bore mop and some nylon brush scrubbing. Based on what my borescope is now showing I think I got most of the carbon ring out of there. But the first 12” of the barrel still has what I think is baked on carbon. Being at approx mid-life on the barrel I figured it was time for a good cleaning, alternating patches and a bronze brush with just Hoppe’s. It’s looking better now, but by no means am I down to the bare metal. The other 2/3 of the barrel looks pretty good according to the borescope.
The other thing I’m trying is trimming my brass. Some of my cases were starting to get into the 1.730-1.732” range, so took it back 8-10 thou. I haven’t fired those yet, but felt like it was time to trim.
I also reduced my seating depth by .020” for an .040” jump (I was seating to .060” jump before). Back when I did my seating depth testing, the .060” jump yielded the best groups in the .3XX” and .040 was in the .5XX” so I went with the smaller group. But now my thinking is I would rather have a slightly larger group than over pressure… plus I’m sure my throat has eroded some in the last 1K rnds.
Recently I’ve been experiencing some pressure signs: a few blown primers and a few cases with an extractor mark on the case. No change to my load which is around 2,840 fps. Some of the brass in question came from a questionable batch of 1x fired brass that got on trade, but it also happened with a few cases of 3x fired (all by me) Hornady brass.
I’m trying three things: The first was to get a borescope and I’m pretty sure I had a carbon ring forming so I went after that with some C4 soaked on a bore mop and some nylon brush scrubbing. Based on what my borescope is now showing I think I got most of the carbon ring out of there. But the first 12” of the barrel still has what I think is baked on carbon. Being at approx mid-life on the barrel I figured it was time for a good cleaning, alternating patches and a bronze brush with just Hoppe’s. It’s looking better now, but by no means am I down to the bare metal. The other 2/3 of the barrel looks pretty good according to the borescope.
The other thing I’m trying is trimming my brass. Some of my cases were starting to get into the 1.730-1.732” range, so took it back 8-10 thou. I haven’t fired those yet, but felt like it was time to trim.
I also reduced my seating depth by .020” for an .040” jump (I was seating to .060” jump before). Back when I did my seating depth testing, the .060” jump yielded the best groups in the .3XX” and .040 was in the .5XX” so I went with the smaller group. But now my thinking is I would rather have a slightly larger group than over pressure… plus I’m sure my throat has eroded some in the last 1K rnds.
There is a VERY easy solution to carbon rings. Don't shoot varget.
I believe that the problem manifests from not completely drying the bore then running an oily patch through through it.
The oil does not displace the water and simply floats above the water based cleaner leaving it trapped against the
steel with some air bubbles mixed in to help start the corrosion.
I just had a weirtardation happen with wipeout accelerator. I just let accelerator sit in the bore 45 min. Now I got stuff that don't want to come out. I called Wipeout, sent pics and the angry old man said, "Look good to me!"
Not supposed to let the accelerator sit in there for 45 minutes. LOL It's just a wet patch with it and then fill it with the foam. No idea what that stuff is in that barrel.
Good post, IMO. Ah, bare metal....not sure that's really the goal at all times. Actually, pretty sure its not and in my limited experience you really would have to go to town scrubbing your barrel to get all the black out of the first part of the barrel.
If you like, perhaps try Frank Green's method of using JB Bore Compound (the blue label stuff...absolutely not the red label Bore Bright). I have used it...not for routine cleaning but for those occasions for a more in-depth scrubbing. After you do your normal solvent and brush (I use nylon most of the times, bronze very occasionally), use a Parker Hale style jag (kind you roll the patch on like rolling a cigarette) and an oversized patch. Patch is damp with oil and then smear the JB on the outside.
You don't want this jag to exit the muzzle (unless you just love re-wrapping it and spending hours doing this cleaning). Frank suggested to me to put the muzzle against a wall or similar to prevent it exiting. I have a metal disk that fits in my thread protector and I just put that on. Scrub back and forth 10-15 times and then short stroke the throat and first part of the barrel. That short stroking will def work its magic on carbon rings.
But then you have to get ALL of the abrasive compound out. So, back to solvent (or oil) and patches.
Another thing to consider is PVA's Muzzle Jimmy or The Plug. One threads on the muzzle, the other gets closed in the chamber. Jimmy is preferred IMO but both work and if you don't have a threaded muzzle then The Plug is your huckleberry.
Hang the rifle vertically (I have a Wilton vise that the head rotates) and fill the bore with...whatever you are using that is NOT corrosive which means not Sweets or similar. I like Bore Tech Eliminator as it works on both carbon and copper but just use what you like. Let it sit (overnight, for a day...use the right solvent and you can leave it in there as long as you want). Drain then clean with brush and patches. Just another approach.
"The Plug" - Barrel Cleaning Aid
The Plug is the easiest way to seal and clean rifle barrels.
patriotvalleyarms.com
I'd try the JB Bore Compound abrasive. At this point, not much to loose, right? How's it shoot...at all well?
I have used Accelerator with their Patch Out product...supposed to be like a 3 to 1 solvent to Accelerator. I have left it in overnight as they say its fine to leave in there in this diluted manner and never had anything like what you are showing....wow. Wonder WTF it is?
And the angry old man....Wipe Out CS?
Haven't shot it yet, Was waiting to see what some abrasives will do first.
Yeah, AOM might be the owner. He used every excuse in the book to say accelerator wouldn't do that. I sent these pics, more excuses. I tried everything he suggested. Told me I wasn't using my borescope right, his take on the pics he said looked fine. Told me, "If you don't see color coming out, it's clean. Yeah...
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the plug is a great thing for bolt guns and the jimmy looks like a good thing. looking for an AR "fill the barrel" product. have to fill from chamber to muzzle on an AR,i think. otherwise think solvent would seep into gas system ??? anyone tried it that way and seen that result?
Does the Accelerator bottle list the active chemical?
May not be related at all, but see this post quoting Frank. Most of the bore damage discussed in that thread is completely different, but look at the pics anyways, they're wild.
Their website says it can't do that, so you know it must be true
This is my 6ARC gas gun barrel with about 1000 rounds on it. It was cleaned after each range trip for the first 100 rounds then cleaned about every 200-300 rounds since then. It has numerous spots like this all between the gas port and muzzle, is it etching from cleaning, manufacturing defects, pitting from rust? The rifle shoots well so I was surprised to see this. What say the people?
Filiform Corrosion
Filiform corrosion is a form of concentration cell corrosion on metallic surfaces coated with thin metallic film.https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/filiform-corrosion
Yeah, I guess it's actually not filiform
Anyways, read that thread, or at least see the post I linked above plus this one
@SteveInMd what chemicals are you cleaning/oiling with?
Anyways, read that thread, or at least see the post I linked above plus this one
@SteveInMd what chemicals are you cleaning/oiling with?
Wow, I’m no metallurgist by any stretch and often bore scope images can be misleading, but that definitely looks like some definite pitting to me. And you say is spread throughout the barrel downstream of the gas port. That is, this is not all of it, right?
If I had to speculate, I’d say it was Butch’s that was not thoroughly removed after cleaning. But that’s just a guess based on my observation that most people don’t dry patch enough to really remove all traces of solvent (yeah, I go thru a lot of patches. Lol).
If it still shoot well, keep shooting it IMO. But if it was me, I’d go to another solvent or be very diligent about getting ALL the Butch’s out.
@Frank Green - Frank, if you have a moment, got any opinions or insight on this?
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A chemist will have to chime in, I'm not of much use from here out.
MSDS for Butch's Bore Shine
MSDS for butyl cellosolve
Some of the "Incompatible Materials" under Section 10.5 are the products of smokeless powder combustion - but that was expected. Obviously you want a cleaning agent to react with the residues, that's literally the point of a chemical cleaner.
List of byproducts from a paper (they mean smokeless):
MSDS for Butch's Bore Shine
MSDS for butyl cellosolve
Some of the "Incompatible Materials" under Section 10.5 are the products of smokeless powder combustion - but that was expected. Obviously you want a cleaning agent to react with the residues, that's literally the point of a chemical cleaner.
List of byproducts from a paper (they mean smokeless):
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You still had oil present in the chamber/bore. After a few shot it was removed by the brass that left the chamber.
No idea on your accuracy issue.
Hmmm? Looks like pitting. Could also be a void in the material. If the pitting that is shown in that picture is just in one area of the barrel and not thru out the barrel randomly etc.... then it could be a void in the material. Not to say it wasn't caused by a cleaner but if it was caused by a cleaner/cleaning procedure then there should be more thru out the barrel.
If it shoots good.... don't look down the bore. LOL! Shoot it till it pukes then.
I've never seen Butch's cause a pitting problem by itself. Like other cleaners.... I tell guys don't mix the solvents. Either in the jar or in the bore. Your asking for problems.
Later, Frank
Correct... you don't spear the patch.
You roll the patch like you roll a cigarette. This give you a lot of surface area for patch to do the cleaning and will also keep the tip of your cleaning rod centered going down the bore. If your using a good rod guide as well you get minimal cleaning rod touching the bore at all.
For a 30cal barrel and PH jag use 2.25" square patches. For a 6.5mm use a 1.75" square patch etc...
You want a snug fitting patch but it shouldn't be so tight as to squeal or cause the cleaning rod to flex as it goes down the bore of the barrel.
Put the patch on and give it a twist with your fingers. Add your solvent etc....
Parker Hale style, if I were a betting man the brand would likely be dewey. Looks just like mine.
