FWIW I was never able to get Genesis to see my Drop 3. The 2 Kestrel apps and Strelok Pro can see it just fine.
I've not experienced the app exit/crash issue when selecting my 5700 in Genesis.
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Genesis Ballistics Solutions--Android Now Available!!
- Thread starter THEIS
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I've not experienced the app exit/crash issue when selecting my 5700 in Genesis.
Well this is strange enough I will make one more post tonight. I cleared the Bluetooth cache while it was searching and then restarted the search and the 5400 popped up immediately! Also found out that I can tap the "OK" button on the "Genesis Status Connected OK" pop up when trying to use the 5400 and all is well. I read a warning about trying to do something it was not programed for will shut the app down. So I guess that is sort of normal at this point. Not programed for the D3 data stream?
This is a quick start guide. It's a VERY rough draft, and covers the very basics for people wanting to see what the app is like.
This is an unlisted video, and intended for SH members only at this point.
If there is interest I can do a much cleaner video with real world shooting and more comprehensive data (track) creation. I just need to know what everyone wants to see.
Let me know if it's any good.
P.S. mils rule, moa sucks.
Ok sure. Anything specific, such as more in-depth track creation, or setting up weather (kestrel) or targets ? Throw me a freaking bone here.
In depth Tracks and Targets would be cool. Also some of the terms; "roos", "meters" and think I heard "Vegemite" J/K
What I'm asking is:
I shoot factory ammo, it's Hornady 6.5crymoor 140gr eldm. Box advertises 2750fps. I create a track, and I get an output of 3.2mrad. I shoot and have to hold a bit to hit the target. After some corrections I realise 2.9mrad is bang on centre target at 500m.
What part of the app can I enter this data to more accurately calculate my real world velocity ?
To answer you more specifically ..
Your BC is dynamic. It changes with velocity. As your bullet leaves the muzzle it slows down, and as this happens, your BC gets worse (I'm not going to say "drops" because I think that's the wrong term).
Can a qualified ballistican please correct me and answer this properly ?
G1 BC is a single point drag curve, which was based on artillery shaped projectiles, or more accurately, pistol bullets (round nose, flat base). G7 drag curves have multiple samples (3?) And are based on boat tail projectiles, so more accurately reflect the types of bullets we shoot. It comes into play at transonic speeds. If you only shoot your 308win to 500y, yes a G7 is accurate, but you are not getting a hugely more accurate drop chart.
Someone put me out of my misery here please
Anyone able to get this installed on a second device?
Purchased to tinker with on my daily use phone. Went to install it on my dedicated range phone (old spare) this morning for a match tomorrow and Play Store is requiring to buy it again.
Purchased to tinker with on my daily use phone. Went to install it on my dedicated range phone (old spare) this morning for a match tomorrow and Play Store is requiring to buy it again.
Hi,
Lots seem to be going on in the Bluetooth pairing world, lol.
The Kestrel bluetooth protocol has been followed and implemented to the "T" since there is essentially zero ways to shortcut the protocol from Kestrel.
The issues as you all may or may not know is that there is a lack of standard bluetooth stacks in the Android world coupled with whatever implementation not only a particular phone manufacturer has but also different implementations per models of phone.
That is clearly leading to some people having zero issues with pairing and others having particular issues.
Perfect example of the lack of standard bluetooth stacks........
There should no way anyone gets a Drop device to pair. The Drop devices have their own Bluetooth protocol from Kestrel and was not implemented into the Genesis protocols at all.
Genesis Ballistics Solutions only works with Kestrel 5XXX devices.
Sincerely,
Theis
PS: @Sticks
I will get back with you shortly!!
PS: @iceng
Putting together a play by play for your "trueing"
Thanks for video
PS: @Mulga
Thank you for taking the time to make video
Lots seem to be going on in the Bluetooth pairing world, lol.
The Kestrel bluetooth protocol has been followed and implemented to the "T" since there is essentially zero ways to shortcut the protocol from Kestrel.
The issues as you all may or may not know is that there is a lack of standard bluetooth stacks in the Android world coupled with whatever implementation not only a particular phone manufacturer has but also different implementations per models of phone.
That is clearly leading to some people having zero issues with pairing and others having particular issues.
Perfect example of the lack of standard bluetooth stacks........
There should no way anyone gets a Drop device to pair. The Drop devices have their own Bluetooth protocol from Kestrel and was not implemented into the Genesis protocols at all.
Genesis Ballistics Solutions only works with Kestrel 5XXX devices.
Sincerely,
Theis
PS: @Sticks
I will get back with you shortly!!
PS: @iceng
Putting together a play by play for your "trueing"
Thanks for video
PS: @Mulga
Thank you for taking the time to make video
Can we generate a list of phones that work well and a list of phones that make Genesis difficult?
My contribution to the Difficult list would be the cheap tracfone version of the Motorola e6 (XT2005DL)
I have a history of destroying expensive phones but this (not all that smart) phone seems to survive.
No need to watch movies in 4K or play power hungry games on the phone but perhaps something more powerful is called for to run a high end ballistic app.
The phone is a bit slow but computing power is not really the problem. The bluetooth low energy stack seems to be screwed up.
The BT cache clearing trick allows AB pair with my kestrals again. Somehow Strelok Pro runs fine on my phone with no fooling around with the BT stack.
My contribution to the Difficult list would be the cheap tracfone version of the Motorola e6 (XT2005DL)
I have a history of destroying expensive phones but this (not all that smart) phone seems to survive.
No need to watch movies in 4K or play power hungry games on the phone but perhaps something more powerful is called for to run a high end ballistic app.
The phone is a bit slow but computing power is not really the problem. The bluetooth low energy stack seems to be screwed up.
The BT cache clearing trick allows AB pair with my kestrals again. Somehow Strelok Pro runs fine on my phone with no fooling around with the BT stack.
As long as you use the same google account it should let you, did the same thing yesterday on the old phone without SIM I use as a LabRadar remote. If there is a required minimum Android version that wasn't on the app store page for it yet.
EDIT:
Most apps purchased after 7/2016 are eligible for "Family Library" sharing. This requires tying the accounts together with "parent" and "child" accounts and having a valid credit card on file with the Play store.
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Until we get the official answer from THEIS and Gus I will provide what admittedly little I know.To answer you more specifically ..
Your BC is dynamic. It changes with velocity. As your bullet leaves the muzzle it slows down, and as this happens, your BC gets worse (I'm not going to say "drops" because I think that's the wrong term).
Can a qualified ballistican please correct me and answer this properly ?
G1 BC is a single point drag curve, which was based on artillery shaped projectiles, or more accurately, pistol bullets (round nose, flat base). G7 drag curves have multiple samples (3?) And are based on boat tail projectiles, so more accurately reflect the types of bullets we shoot. It comes into play at transonic speeds. If you only shoot your 308win to 500y, yes a G7 is accurate, but you are not getting a hugely more accurate drop chart.
Someone put me out of my misery here please
The "drag coefficient" function provides the ability to tweak the curve to match the trajectory of your bullet+rifle.
There is controversy over the use of that term hence the quotes but it is what both apps call it.
Here is a graph showing 3 different "DC" values and their affect on the curve at different speeds:
This setting is available under the Shoot module>Data section>DATA INPUTS
The "Drag Coeff" is under BULLET
If there is a separate "I shot 850 yards and my impact was 11 Mils so adjust x/y/z to this value" truing function I have not found it yet in either app.
I knew they were in the thread somewhere, the lengthy explanation of this function from a detailed external ballistic perspective are in posts 192 and 196.
www.snipershide.com
www.snipershide.com
Genesis Ballistics Solutions--Android Now Available!!
Forgive me if I missed it. What is the estimated price point? Good question
www.snipershide.com
Genesis Ballistics Solutions--Android Now Available!!
Forgive me if I missed it. What is the estimated price point? Good question
www.snipershide.com
Same account for both phones. I've had no issues with other paid apps. Just this one.
Thought I remembered seeing this somewhere, It is in section 13 of the License Terms:
13. OPERATING LICENSE.
The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis, thus requiring a license for each device that executes the code. However, a single license can be reassigned from one device to another device provided the reassignment is made either (a) permanently away from the one device
or (b) temporarily to accommodate the use of the license by a loaned device, while a permanent device is out of service.
It goes on and on as these things usually do....
13. OPERATING LICENSE.
The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis, thus requiring a license for each device that executes the code. However, a single license can be reassigned from one device to another device provided the reassignment is made either (a) permanently away from the one device
or (b) temporarily to accommodate the use of the license by a loaned device, while a permanent device is out of service.
It goes on and on as these things usually do....
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Make sure you activate family library, then make sure the setting is turned on for this program, then you'll be able to install it on your range phone, assuming both are on the same account and updated and all that good stuff.
It is only $37.88 including tax (in Texas) for each device so the cost is nothing compared to the other things people will buy in the hopes of one more point. The equipment race is as bad or worse in this sport as any shooting competition I have ever participated in. Good thing I am only doing this for fun. I still have not shot a PRS match and don't really feel like doing it. I am not shy about my shooting and have competed in literally hundreds of other matches, I was a High Master after all, I just don't care about matches anymore.
I have determined that the group of shooters on this thread is a LOT more knowledgeable than most of those who have posted on the Facebook group.
However, Gustavo F. Ruiz of Patagonia Ballistics is a moderator there, he wrote much of the Genesis app. So, membership is worthwhile.
However, Gustavo F. Ruiz of Patagonia Ballistics is a moderator there, he wrote much of the Genesis app. So, membership is worthwhile.
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@THEIS so turret truing / validation. Can do.
I've had a request for changing from G1 / G7 BC. Currently I cant find it in the app. I manually go to the bullet manuf website, get it, enter that way.
I usually true velocity up to 800 - 1000m, then BC after that.
I'm going to have a play with the weather environmentals and work a few things out when I get back to my kestrel.
I think a solid guide on that is required.
I've had a request for changing from G1 / G7 BC. Currently I cant find it in the app. I manually go to the bullet manuf website, get it, enter that way.
I usually true velocity up to 800 - 1000m, then BC after that.
I'm going to have a play with the weather environmentals and work a few things out when I get back to my kestrel.
I think a solid guide on that is required.
I don't get it, since all my other apps load, but it worked. Thank you.
The G1/G7 BC is in the same place as the Drag Coeff under BULLET. Tap the "G1-Lbs/in2" on the right to toggle between them.
You must however manually enter the G7 BC value in the middle box. Then Save Changes for the Track.
You can see the fields in my screenshots a few posts up.
The library so far has only shown G1 values on ones I've looked at.
Hopefully he decides to participate here as well. I refuse to join FB and doubt I'm alone on that position.
Tried to get this set up this AM for my match. I could not get it to line up with Hornady 4DOF data, which is what I have been using. Need to learn more to get them to match up a little better. @ 700y I am still showing a .2 mil difference, and I am not comfortable shaving 100fps to line them up.
FWIW - Samsung Galaxy S9 // Android 10
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Galaxy S5 // Android 6.0.1 (range phone). Have not tried pairing Kestrel yet.
FWIW - Samsung Galaxy S9 // Android 10
- and -
Galaxy S5 // Android 6.0.1 (range phone). Have not tried pairing Kestrel yet.
Should have mentioned my troublesome Moto e6 is running Android 9. I doubt that droid 9 has anything to do with the trouble. But, How would I know? I am into electronics but don't seem to have the knack for programing.
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Can you share your track's data and actual dope, including 4DOF? Have been running CB for many years and I find hard to understand such difference, taking a look to your data may be the ticket to find out the culprit.
Mine is a Moto 7 Android 10 and it pairs right away, just followed Mulga video instructions and zero issues.
I'm getting some shooty mcshooterson time this weekend. Will attempt to verify and "calibrate" data and show how I do it.
I also wanna do the target cluster thing, purely for my own benefit.
Still really want a BC truing / velocity trying tool, not just a scope turret truing tool.
I also wanna do the target cluster thing, purely for my own benefit.
Still really want a BC truing / velocity trying tool, not just a scope turret truing tool.
ColdBore1 desktop and mobile has it. The app is version 1.0.1 so if it isn't planned already for future versions it could be.
I am quite sure it is data entry error. I just don't know where. It might be where the 4DOF uses the Axial Form Factor and Zero Angle - mystery tweaks to the firing solution that I can't see.
Regarding this thread https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...tics-app-to-new-android.7074379/#post-9479287
In Genesis or CB this operation cannot be easier and straigthforward, besides transferring files to/from a PC there is also a built-in feature to upload/download user files to the cloud, again, super easy too.
In Genesis or CB this operation cannot be easier and straigthforward, besides transferring files to/from a PC there is also a built-in feature to upload/download user files to the cloud, again, super easy too.
You must consider that tweaking a measured value like your MV like what most software (Point Mass solvers) does is really a very bad idea, your basically saying to the computer to guess a new one until it "matches" your dope...completely wrong approach, and I know Patagonia always refused to provide such a feature for theis very reason. Think about this, your MV is very well measured (now we have access to very affordable and accurate technology) and the prediction doesn't line up, putting aside the very fact that the MV cannot be the culprit, and now the computer will trash that and find a new "magic" number? Seriously?
Pretty much an approach that defies every rule of sound engineering to start with. BC is another story, but we now have plenty of properly determined values- The problem with Point Mass (AB, Strelok, 4DOF, etc) is the model itself, not the data you feed it. Problem is a great deal of shooters have been exposed to this wishful thinking and now is Holy Grail...yes, actually the wrong way of doing things, only trying to fix an ill method to start with. This is akin to G1 or G7...in CB or Genesis, both (with correct numbers) will provide rock solid predictions because the engine actually doesn't care about this, unlike Point Mass which depends heavily on one or the other for good results. Have you trued your scope? How accurate are all of your data inputs? How good is your yardage? CB and Genesis now share the same engine, one that has been always recognized for providing very accurate results as long as the shooter does it home work, I'm new to Genesis but have been running CB for many years and have yet to find a more robust software.
Well, now would be the time to order a new barrel for Becky, and start fresh with a tall target test again, load dev, and 700 yard group size/ POI/POA shift.
Thankyou. That is interesting, I didn't know that; Point Mass vs CB.
I will beg to differ. Neither muzzle velocity nor BC are fixed known values, despite what chronograph manufactures or bullet manufactures might try to tell you. Most all chronographs are +/- 1% of actual, presuming a perfect setup, which most users fail to create. BC is somewhat variable, depending on start velocity, twist rate and yaw. Muzzle breaks and suppressors can alter BC, the mfg gives you a number based on a test barrel at a (perhaps) stated velocity. That's not sure to be the number from your rifle.
For example, we just finished an XLR class here at Gunsite. After class, I fired up Genesis and launched a few Warner Tool 351gr solids from my .375 CT. I use a Labradar, carefully positioned, the scope is calibrated on a fixture, the target ranges accurate to +/- 2 yards, WT provides a BC derived from Dopper radar data. The elevation at 2307 yards is wrong by .4 mil, 1501 meters is off by .3 mil, using the Labradar velocity and the factory BC.
What's wrong? The model is not faulty, I've used Coldbore for many years, it's one of the recommended software systems here. All of the basic systems available all have good and bad points, but most provide good solutions if correctly calibrated.
My FFS profile is correct for the .375, but it required an alteration to the 'factory' BC and a change to the DK value. Doing nearly the same changes to the Genesis program corrected the solution. I've got to use it more, but I don't really expect to see any problems with the engine itself.
Now, I should note that changing the MV by more than a couple percentage points is suspect, as is altering BC more than a couple percent without solid downrange velocities/TOF to compute corrected values. Changing MV from 2560 to 2500 to correct a .3 mil error at 600 is clearly wrong and is going to cause more problems than it solves. Changing the MV by 10 fps to move .2 mil at 1500 yards is quite reasonable, and hardly indicative of a faulty model.
Try for example, putting three LabRadars in position on one gun (L/R and above) Do they all read the exact same value? Which one is correct? Even the 8' spacing on an Oehler is subject to setup errors in the angle of the sensors.
Let me start by saying that the term "truing" is correct if applied correctly while "tweaking" is not when using some sort of "software adjusted MV" a really bad practice that tracks down to the now long gone Exbal, which is still prevalent in the realm of Point Mass solvers, clearly a practice that has nothing to do with the correct technical approach by relying on a methodology so common in the field of engineering when dealing with instrumental errors.
I certainly agree that using the DC value is the right way to "true" a somewhat dubious BC. Having said that, MV is another story.
Yes, of course, MV is as good as the instrument and the data analysis we use after collecting a statistically significant sample (in my case, no less than 20 shots coming off my best accuracy developed load) followed by a good dose of number crunching. I've been using this technical approach for many years and never had any trouble with great predictions up to 2 miles (not in a match and during almost zero wind condition)
Data Uncertainty is the demon we fight every shooting session, but there are methods and best practices to deal with it meant to obtain the best possible fit. Instrumental built-in error is something we can do nothing about and the only way to follow is to apply what we learn from the science of statistics. My personal keywords are sample size and lots of samples as possible.
I agree with what you said about adjusting MV, I wouldn't say it better, but I guess that you are also against any computer-guessed value when it comes to MV, so common to see these days. That's is the whole point of my previous post. What about temp swing affecting MV? What about many other error sources, as mentioned before, are the LR shooter not evaluating correctly? The farther the target the greatest the error, as we all know. In short a tiny adjustment is OK as long as it based on some technical criteria.
Another thing I noted very often is how shooters deal with absolute values vs the inherent and non-absolute nature of shooting. I mean, is really a 0.4 mil difference an error or it's not? To answer this question to myself I go back to the Error Budget module of CB and play with in order to have a real understanding of the expected group size under the uncertainties of my inputs which are going to be there I like them or not.
In other words if the prediction is inside the CEP or expected group size then it's a good one, otherwise it's not. Groups will only grow up as distance increases and only because of the said uncertainties, independently of how "accurate" the rifle or load are.
We certainly know that fact, but most of the time we fail to establish a baseline to compare with and say how good are XXX software predictions vs YYY and that's an exercise I do as often as possible and why I run CB and now Genesis, because it's the most solid predictor I've ever used so far (including FFS) and way better than any Point Mass solver, even when loaded with Doppler data. Not saying Point Mass solvers aren't good, they are but have lots of quirks and one quite notable is the need to resort to the infamous "truing" a practice that makes shooters to perform a voodo-like procedure.
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Yeah, it's more about shooting factory ammo when you don't own a chronograph, and using the advertised velo on the box is not exact. Really useful tool. This is exclusively why I want a velo truing option.
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I found a feature in Genesis that I really like a lot. Screen lock is deactived once Genesis is running in the foreground, very nice touch for matches and hunting.
Has anyone figured out how to bring the Kestrel data in in standard format all I can get is metric?
That question was answered in the Users Group, the protocol braodcasts only metric values but once transferred, the data is converted to your current units so it's irrelevant
Hi,
And was mentioned in one or my previous posts here too, lol.
FWIW, every "integration" is roughly 8k dollars so to be honest....IF we would have integrated everything from the onset....you would not be paying $35.
Those integrations will come as the marketshare increases.
New website has taken a little longer than expected but will be live by end of next week.
iOS validation department is going through their protocols and processes to ensure iOS version meets Apple standards. So soon as they approve it the iOS version can launch.
Sincerely,
Theis
And was mentioned in one or my previous posts here too, lol.
FWIW, every "integration" is roughly 8k dollars so to be honest....IF we would have integrated everything from the onset....you would not be paying $35.
Those integrations will come as the marketshare increases.
New website has taken a little longer than expected but will be live by end of next week.
iOS validation department is going through their protocols and processes to ensure iOS version meets Apple standards. So soon as they approve it the iOS version can launch.
Sincerely,
Theis
The User Group is on Facebook right? You won't find me there. If the answer is that the only way it comes over is in metric that answer is fine every program has limits. Irrelevant to you, not as much to me. Thanks,
I thought I had read through the posts here but must have missed that detail. I'm fine with a program having limitations you have to stop somewhere and get it to market or you would never get it released. I just assumed as a new user that I may have been missing something in the settings or something simple. Appreciate the response.
Hi,
Sneak Peek at the new Genesis Ballistics Solutions website.
We are going to hopefully be migrating servers this weekend.
Update on iOS version:
Apple is reviewing how our app communicates with the "cloud" to determine if that conflicts with any of their security protocols.
Sincerely,
Theis
Sneak Peek at the new Genesis Ballistics Solutions website.
We are going to hopefully be migrating servers this weekend.
Update on iOS version:
Apple is reviewing how our app communicates with the "cloud" to determine if that conflicts with any of their security protocols.
Sincerely,
Theis
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