Hornady is making knockoff/clone bullets (Aeromatch)

[FuhQ]

And yet many of us haven't had any failures. I've even killed elk with 147 eld-m.

When I can buy them for half the price of bergers and they tune easier, it's hard to say no.

I haven't had any blow up in the 134 257 flavor either, and I'm pushing them to 3000fps in a 1:7 twist.

I didn’t say failures… I said their consistency sucks. Which it does. From box to box all from the same lot #, one box shot 1/2 MOA, the next box shot 1+ MOA. Same load, same rifle, same barrel, same scope, etc… Experienced the same with AMax’s years before that with my buddy’s .300WM.

 

[ma smith]

Sierra sells tons of SMK 2nd quality bullets. IMHO you get cheaper prices, lower performance, etc BUT another benefit is you keep original workflow intact.

 

[Tokay444]

Pretty much exactly what I thought. A lot of us had it pretty good. Tell the fed to screw off, don't do some of the things we'd like to...

I know a lot of people that lost their jobs though. I'm glad they stuck to their guns.

My point is that you're expecting a CEO of a multimillion dollar company to act according to your ideals, all the while the most your ideals were tested was being asked to mask up.

I don't like what hornady did either. But they aren't some kind of satan worshipers that need be be burned at the stake.

At least, that's my opinion. Think what ever you want.

I’m expecting an American to act American, yes.

 

[FuhQ]

Also, I mentioned to Berger on the IG page that they need to make some 6mm 115gr Elite Hunters for target and hunting in the modern 6mm cartridges, and with the rise in popularity of the 6 ARC, that way you get a dual-threat, with all the BC and precision of a long range target bullet, but the weight and expansion of a hard-hitting hunting bullet at all ranges. They said they thought it would be an awesome idea, and was going to pass the idea along to their R&D department. So, fingers crossed, they release a 6mm 115 Elite Hunter in the near future...

 

[Evintos]

I didn’t say failures… I said their consistency sucks. Which it does. From box to box all from the same lot #, one box shot 1/2 MOA, the next box shot 1+ MOA. Same load, same rifle, same barrel, same scope, etc… Experienced the same with AMax’s years before that with my buddy’s .300WM.

What's funny is that Hornady could've spent more time, money and effort into improving the production methods for their own bullet designs and develop a reputation of consistently high quality with great design bullets like that of their yellow brand competitor. Instead they chose to spend the effort into making copies with unknown quality and consistency. Is Hornady even capable of maintaining Berger's J4 jacket level tolerances? I'm doubtful that they are.

 

[Slides]

I

ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.

Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.

View attachment 8530726

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you shoot at least one Rem700 clone action? Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.

 

[FuhQ]

I

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you shoot at least one Rem700 clone action? Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.

A 700 clone is rarely a 1:1 copy... These bullets are supposedly (as claimed by Hornady) to be exact carbon copies of the originals. That's not quite the same thing as a guideline, that's blatantly ripping something off. But nice try.

 

[The_Steward]

What's funny is that Hornady could've spent more time, money and effort into improving the production methods for their own bullet designs and develop a reputation of consistently high quality with great design bullets like that of their yellow brand competitor. Instead they chose to spend the effort into making copies of unknown quality and consistency. Is Hornady even capable of maintaining Berger's J4 jacket level tolerances? I'm doubtful that they are.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm betting they were asked to make copies by an OEM rather than just deciding to themselves.

 

[Kadams1563]

If they could just make copies then why the fuck they wait so long?!???

 

[kthomas]

Sierra probably did have issues producing bullet's during Covid I'm not sure, I'm sure Black Jack was aware of the supply issue but was still taking people's money and never refunded, which knowing that maybe there was an issue with Sierra getting paid as well?
I don't really care but I wouldn't be so quick to blame Sierra here.

Whatever the story is there, I don't think we even know the half of it.

 

[Evintos]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm betting they were asked to make copies by an OEM rather than just deciding to themselves.

Considering the response by the Berger and Sierra on social media, probably not a request by the OEM (Berger and Sierra being the original). Even if I ignore the ethics and morality of the business decision, my thoughts on the product remains. Will this product have the same manufacturing tolerances that Berger has on their bullets, as in +/- 0.1gr in bullet weight, +/-0.0003 jacket thickness or will it have Hornady level acceptable variation?

If it's Hornady level variation, then customers will remember why they went with Berger bullets in the first place.

If someone was to try to make the argument a pale imitation would be good for closer distance practice (<300yds), then my counter argument is, it's cheaper to just buy factory seconds bullets for around under $0.25 a round. The Aero Match isn't much cheaper than factory first originals and in the case of like the 175gr Aeromatch, preliminary pricing looks like it's the exact same price as the Sierra.

As for Hornady copying the Sierra 168 and 175 Matchkings... I've only seen them out of stock during the height of covid . Didn't even know there was an availability problem with these.

 

[Barelstroker]

How is it a copy and where do you get that impression from?

My question exactly.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

All you people pining over Hornady using a design by Berger.

WAKE UP!

If it’s not patented or copyrighted, there is nothing wrong with it. Immoral maybe but illeagal. Naw.

People been doing this shit for decades. Want to go into the boat building business? No problem, easy peasy. See a boat that has a design you like. Buy one. Strip the hardware, separate the deck from the hull, and there you go, the plugs to make your female molds for your hull and deck. In the 1970’s and 80’s everyone was doing it. We owned a Kingfisher, nice boat. I don’t know who originally came out with the design but at least one other company was building that exact boat. Others were doing it as well. Sailboat. US a division of Bayliner, never bothered to even think of paying the designer royalties. They purchased a boat, popped a female mold from the boat they bought and walla, they were in the sailboat business. I think it was Doug Peterson whose hull design they “stole”. He was a mite bit pissed to say the least, but nothing he could do about it.

How many of us are using reloading presses with the multi link mechanism. Heard of anyone paying RCBS royalties. They developed it. Oh, how bout royalties to Remington over using the 700 footprint. And let’s not forget, the infamous all powerful “Weapon of War.” That battleship destroying with one shot AR15.

So, lets all quite wasting perfectly good electrons pinning about someone using a design that was not legally protected by law. Want permission, ok ask for it, but by law, it’s not required. Maybe not the gentlemanly thing to do, but in this world of joe biden (head of the biden crime family) and kamala harris, (who’s claim to fame was moving up in the world all the while laying on her back doing the horizontal Hulu) who gives a shit. It’s become a shitty world.

(And I always have tried to live a life where honesty is the best policy, and doing the right thing even when no one was looking leaves one with a clean heart and a clear conscious. I still try to live that way, but damn it’s hard seeing all that goes on in these days and times.).

 

[Gtscotty]

I

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you shoot at least one Rem700 clone action? Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.

Some of these brigands are duplicating not just one but two esteemed designs and bragging about it in their website copy!

How could they knock off poor old Salvage and Big Groan like that!

Address the market properly or get scooped, it doesn't get much more American than that.

 

[jthor]

I don’t use Hornady much for competition and will agree their level of variation can be a lot at times. Mostly use them for vmax bullets and a few others. However even with their premium ATIPs they vary more within the same box than a box of Bergers; and that’s with them being “sequentially packed hot of the press”. Weight and BTO measurements. That has been my experience at least between 110 ATIPs and Berger 109s over more than one lot. I can’t image these copies will have better productions standards than their ELDMs. I mostly use those to speed up new barrels rather than use my Berger 109s.

With something like a 77 SMK clone variation might not matter. It’s a stupid forgiving bullet design.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

All yall bitching, I'm just over here like FLOOD the market with your overpriced knock offs BB LETS GO!!!

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I like Berger and Sierra bullets but I don't owe them my business. If Hornady wants to sell me the same product for less money I might buy it. If Berger and Sierra have IP they think they can enforce, they should try to enforce it. I have zero moral obligation to buy from one over the other. Quit crying, it's unbecoming.

 

[carbonbased]

That battleship destroying with one shot AR15.

LOL

 

[jzerfoss]

Now we know you’ve never experienced the ease of finding an extremely accurate load with a smk and then given up after futile attempts with the eldm you speak of. Plus the smks don’t need a special magazine. If they thought for a second the eldms were a threat to the 77 smks, they wouldn’t have swallowed their pride and copied the smk.

Kudos to Hornady for setting ego aside and trying to provide a positive experience for the shooters while also improving their bottom line! If all companies operated in similar fashion, consumers would benefit greatly.

I currently have 77gr smks, 75gr bthps, and 75gr elds. I shoot the 75gr elds in my 223 bolt gun and 75gr bthps in my gas gun. The 77gr smks are more expensive, have a lower b.c., and don't really shoot any better at distance. So the 77gr smk copy with a lower b.c. still doesn't make any sense.

 

[MarinePMI]

As far as "intellectual property" concerning bullet profiles... I couldn't say. I think the rule to avoid patent infringement is that there must be a 40% difference between two like items. How that 40% is quantified, I wouldn't have a clue.

But typically even if that design is patented, the patent is only good for 17 years or something... Case in point: generic Viagra.

So if there was a patent on the 168/175 SMK's it's probably been lapsed for a while. I'm surprised this hasn't been done sooner... Probably has. Consider some of the smaller manufacturers making "knock off" bullets.

I looked at the 30 Cal AeroMatch bullets the other day... The BC's seemed to be a bit lower than Sierra's... But that might be my memory failing.

Mike

Hornady is known for copying other people's stuff. It's just their business model and culture. <shrug> Not my personal preference, but it's their model/culture, not mine.

It's literally how the .17 Mach II came into being (they had dropped the 22LR based .17 idea well before they released the 17 HMR). Only after another company released a 17 caliber, .22LR based cartridge, did they suddenly get interested. Then they flooded the market with it, pretty much killing the other cartridge in it's infancy. <shrug> It's one of the reasons so many will not talk about new products, until after they are released. The Firearms/Ammunition industry is pretty cut throat.

 

[Lightning8]

All I know is that Berger 105 Hybrids became unavailable and what you could find was overpriced and that drove shooters to look for alternatives. Seems like Berger 105 Hybrids are now more available and with reduced pricing. Hope competition provides more availability and cheaper pricing.

 

[BoilerUP]

Hope competition provides more availability and cheaper pricing.

This.

Maybe Hornady will make a "good enough" clone that saves people 5-10 cents per bullet.

Maybe Berger and Sierra will invest the capital necessary to increase output as clearly demand has been sustained, maybe even at better pricing than we've seen in the recent past.

Or maybe people will argue about having another option on the market, as if choice is a bad thing.

 

[JB.IC]

If they could just make copies then why the fuck they wait so long?!???

I wasn’t expecting this comment

 

[Taylorbok]

If they could just make copies then why the fuck they wait so long?!???

I'd imagine it takes longer than we think to get all the details ironed out and then machines set up to pump them out.

 

[diggler1833]

Hornady did the math on this (I hope, or somebody needs fired), and determined that their potential profits would significantly outweigh the cost of the run-up and marketing. It is a business decision to try to tap into the production/profits of other bullet makers and nothing else. I am fine with that, it is capitalism.

We shall see how well the execution of the idea goes.

I for one, like the ELD-M for critter dispatching (so far), and I like the cost and offerings. If the supply of those diminishes so Hornady can focus on using the designs of other manufacturers, I will be less enthusiastic.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Hornady did the math on this (I hope, or somebody needs fired), and determined that their potential profits would significantly outweigh the cost of the run-up and marketing. It is a business decision to try to tap into the production/profits of other bullet makers and nothing else. I am fine with that, it is capitalism.

We shall see how well the execution of the idea goes.

I for one, like the ELD-M for critter dispatching (so far), and I like the cost and offerings. If the supply of those diminishes so Hornady can focus on using the designs of other manufacturers, I will be less enthusiastic.

Don’t forget the component market for commercially produced ammunition.

Black Hills and AAC (PSA) have both been loading 5.56 ammo with a Hornady 77gr SMK clone for months.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I didn’t say failures… I said their consistency sucks. Which it does. From box to box all from the same lot #, one box shot 1/2 MOA, the next box shot 1+ MOA. Same load, same rifle, same barrel, same scope, etc… Experienced the same with AMax’s years before that with my buddy’s .300WM.

Their bullets suck. Hornady bullets are the one ones you will see consistently blowing up. Get her near or over 300k rpm and poof. And that doesn't even get into the bullet bc variance or the lot to lot issues.

 

[Im2bent]

, the infamous all powerful “Weapon of War.” That battleship destroying with one shot AR15.

So that's what this guy was doing.....engaging an enemy fleet.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

So that's what this guy was doing.....engaging an enemy fleet.

View attachment 8531705

Chinese, Russians, Iranians, even krogerbetans (that would be all powerful aliens from the planet Krogerber from the Andromeda galaxy) are all shaking in their boots and dreading the very moment that they might have to face a man or woman with one of the planet shattering AR15's.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I like Berger and Sierra bullets but I don't owe them my business. If Hornady wants to sell me the same product for less money I might buy it. If Berger and Sierra have IP they think they can enforce, they should try to enforce it. I have zero moral obligation to buy from one over the other. Quit crying, it's unbecoming.

Its retarded and short sighted attitudes like this that have destroyed American small business.

Walmart comes into town, It tells a manufacture to sell me this at X price or I will go to china to have a clone made. So company sells to Walmart out of desperation. Meanwhile the mom and pop shops that dont give Billions to politicians so they can get huge tax breaks, economic tax credits and heavily regulated industries (regulations benefit large corps and kill small business) go out of business. walmart then decides to buy up company X and have their shit made in china instead to save $.001 per unit, putting American manufacturing out of business.

So you end up putting all the mom and pops out of business which means decent paying jobs as well as tax base goes down. Walmart doesnt pay shit in taxes and pays such low wages that their employees still get welfare which means the taxpayer is subsidizing walmart. But now we have less people paying taxes and more people receiving benefits. Then walmart decides to jack up the prices as they are the only game in town. There is no longer any competition because fucking morons who think this is capitalism (more like crony oligarchical capitalism where gains are privatized and losses are socialized). You cannot compete because its not a fair playing field and the barriers to entry make it impossible.

And at the end of the day, America withers away. Walmart will import their container ships full of Chinese dogshit each day because they have destroyed American industry and the middle class. Its why there are entire regions of the US that look like desolate post industrial waste lands. People all fucked up on any number of drugs, crime through he roof and costs skyrocketing all around you. And that is just one example.

People like you with that attitude are more dangerous and a greater enemy to our society than any communist or nazi in history. They are the enemy that destroys us from within.

 

[45-90]

Sounds good on video....I'm all for bullet availability, if they stack up well against the other copied brands.
But the problem with Hornaday is that they keep announcing new products and calibers, that are not ready available for too long already.
No brass, bullets, or dies for their newly announced calibers, and other calibers run out if components for months... they can not keep now, with there own innovations into the market, and still want to take on more...guess we'll see.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Its retarded and short sighted attitudes like this that have destroyed American small business.

Walmart comes into town, It tells a manufacture to sell me this at X price or I will go to china to have a clone made. So company sells to Walmart out of desperation. Meanwhile the mom and pop shops that dont give Billions to politicians so they can get huge tax breaks, economic tax credits and heavily regulated industries (regulations benefit large corps and kill small business) go out of business. walmart then decides to buy up company X and have their shit made in china instead to save $.001 per unit, putting American manufacturing out of business.

So you end up putting all the mom and pops out of business which means decent paying jobs as well as tax base goes down. Walmart doesnt pay shit in taxes and pays such low wages that their employees still get welfare which means the taxpayer is subsidizing walmart. But now we have less people paying taxes and more people receiving benefits. Then walmart decides to jack up the prices as they are the only game in town. There is no longer any competition because fucking morons who think this is capitalism (more like crony oligarchical capitalism where gains are privatized and losses are socialized). You cannot compete because its not a fair playing field and the barriers to entry make it impossible.

And at the end of the day, America withers away. Walmart will import their container ships full of Chinese dogshit each day because they have destroyed American industry and the middle class. Its why there are entire regions of the US that look like desolate post industrial waste lands. People all fucked up on any number of drugs, crime through he roof and costs skyrocketing all around you. And that is just one example.

People like you with that attitude are more dangerous and a greater enemy to our society than any communist or nazi in history. They are the enemy that destroys us from within.

All I can say is that in Jonesboro, Louisiana, you have two choices, Walmart for groceries anything else you want and Brookshire's for groceries.

Yep, two local parts stores and two chain parts stores, one really good hardware store/lumber yard, a couple of convenient stores and that's it. A pawn shop doubles as a gun shop, but not much there. At one time we had two more gunshots. One shut down and the other, the owner died. So, if you really want something, besides lumber, hardware or auto parts, it's Walmart or hit the road to Ruston, Monroe or Shreveport. (Even Winnfield is dominated by Walmart.).

Not so sure Walmart is such a good deal.

 

[FuhQ]

Its retarded and short sighted attitudes like this that have destroyed American small business.

Walmart comes into town, It tells a manufacture to sell me this at X price or I will go to china to have a clone made. So company sells to Walmart out of desperation. Meanwhile the mom and pop shops that dont give Billions to politicians so they can get huge tax breaks, economic tax credits and heavily regulated industries (regulations benefit large corps and kill small business) go out of business. walmart then decides to buy up company X and have their shit made in china instead to save $.001 per unit, putting American manufacturing out of business.

So you end up putting all the mom and pops out of business which means decent paying jobs as well as tax base goes down. Walmart doesnt pay shit in taxes and pays such low wages that their employees still get welfare which means the taxpayer is subsidizing walmart. But now we have less people paying taxes and more people receiving benefits. Then walmart decides to jack up the prices as they are the only game in town. There is no longer any competition because fucking morons who think this is capitalism (more like crony oligarchical capitalism where gains are privatized and losses are socialized). You cannot compete because its not a fair playing field and the barriers to entry make it impossible.

And at the end of the day, America withers away. Walmart will import their container ships full of Chinese dogshit each day because they have destroyed American industry and the middle class. Its why there are entire regions of the US that look like desolate post industrial waste lands. People all fucked up on any number of drugs, crime through he roof and costs skyrocketing all around you. And that is just one example.

People like you with that attitude are more dangerous and a greater enemy to our society than any communist or nazi in history. They are the enemy that destroys us from within.

Yep, It's a Boomer Fudd mentality. They are one huge reason our country is as fucked as it is today... "Piss away the future for a better today, we won't be around to see it..." And the whole, "I just don't understand why you can't live off of $50,000 a year and buy your own house, back in my day, I had a house, 3 kids, a wife who stayed at home with them, and did it all on $25,000 a year..."

In 1970 a house was like $35,000, a good new car was $5,000, and gas like $0.35 a gallon...And everything you own is paid for. But yeah, tell me again Pops how the average house in 2024 at $400,000 w/ interest rates in the double-digits, gas at $4.00 a gallon, and cars costing $75,000 average for a decent one maths out to $50,000 a year being "enough"...

 

[Niles Coyote]

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Its retarded and short sighted attitudes like this that have destroyed American small business.

Walmart comes into town, It tells a manufacture to sell me this at X price or I will go to china to have a clone made. So company sells to Walmart out of desperation. Meanwhile the mom and pop shops that dont give Billions to politicians so they can get huge tax breaks, economic tax credits and heavily regulated industries (regulations benefit large corps and kill small business) go out of business. walmart then decides to buy up company X and have their shit made in china instead to save $.001 per unit, putting American manufacturing out of business.

So you end up putting all the mom and pops out of business which means decent paying jobs as well as tax base goes down. Walmart doesnt pay shit in taxes and pays such low wages that their employees still get welfare which means the taxpayer is subsidizing walmart. But now we have less people paying taxes and more people receiving benefits. Then walmart decides to jack up the prices as they are the only game in town. There is no longer any competition because fucking morons who think this is capitalism (more like crony oligarchical capitalism where gains are privatized and losses are socialized). You cannot compete because its not a fair playing field and the barriers to entry make it impossible.

And at the end of the day, America withers away. Walmart will import their container ships full of Chinese dogshit each day because they have destroyed American industry and the middle class. Its why there are entire regions of the US that look like desolate post industrial waste lands. People all fucked up on any number of drugs, crime through he roof and costs skyrocketing all around you. And that is just one example.

People like you with that attitude are more dangerous and a greater enemy to our society than any communist or nazi in history. They are the enemy that destroys us from within.

Worse than a Nazi? I'm honored, thank you!

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Yep, It's a Boomer Fudd mentality. They are one huge reason our country is as fucked as it is today... "Piss away the future for a better today, we won't be around to see it..." And the whole, "I just don't understand why you can't live off of $50,000 a year and buy your own house, back in my day, I had a house, 3 kids, a wife who stayed at home with them, and did it all on $25,000 a year..."

In 1970 a house was like $35,000, a good new car was $5,000, and gas like $0.35 a gallon...And everything you own is paid for. But yeah, tell me again Pops how the average house in 2024 at $400,000 w/ interest rates in the double-digits, gas at $4.00 a gallon, and cars costing $75,000 average for a decent one maths out to $50,000 a year being "enough"...

Not for nothing but Berger is owned by is a foreign company and Sierra is owned by private equity. Also, I'm a little young to be a Boomer.

 

[Gtscotty]

Its retarded and short sighted attitudes like this that have destroyed American small business.

Walmart comes into town, It tells a manufacture to sell me this at X price or I will go to china to have a clone made. So company sells to Walmart out of desperation. Meanwhile the mom and pop shops that dont give Billions to politicians so they can get huge tax breaks, economic tax credits and heavily regulated industries (regulations benefit large corps and kill small business) go out of business. walmart then decides to buy up company X and have their shit made in china instead to save $.001 per unit, putting American manufacturing out of business.

So you end up putting all the mom and pops out of business which means decent paying jobs as well as tax base goes down. Walmart doesnt pay shit in taxes and pays such low wages that their employees still get welfare which means the taxpayer is subsidizing walmart. But now we have less people paying taxes and more people receiving benefits. Then walmart decides to jack up the prices as they are the only game in town. There is no longer any competition because fucking morons who think this is capitalism (more like crony oligarchical capitalism where gains are privatized and losses are socialized). You cannot compete because its not a fair playing field and the barriers to entry make it impossible.

And at the end of the day, America withers away. Walmart will import their container ships full of Chinese dogshit each day because they have destroyed American industry and the middle class. Its why there are entire regions of the US that look like desolate post industrial waste lands. People all fucked up on any number of drugs, crime through he roof and costs skyrocketing all around you. And that is just one example.

People like you with that attitude are more dangerous and a greater enemy to our society than any communist or nazi in history. They are the enemy that destroys us from within.

No, he's exactly right, and this word salad is wrong on many levels. Comparing Hornady to Walmart is the commercial equivalent of comparing any political group I don't like to Nazis, stupid.

Unless the private equity and foreign owned bullet makers have enforceable IP on the shape of their metal chunks and bother to enforce it, they make a commodity and American owned companies can also make the same commodity. If they have a legal monopoly on something key to their little metal chucks in the form of a patent , and it's worth it to them, they can defend their IP and fend the American intruder off. If they differentiate themselves with a higher level of quality and/or lower price than the American owned company, they are still going to sell to their core market looking for that quality, if they can't, they've been out competed.

There is no big bad wolf here telling Berger or Sierra to sell them their bullets at a loss only to outsource to China later. There is no location constrained "town" here for Hornady to take over, any of these competing manufacturers can sell anywhere they'd like. This is competition in the market place, exactly as it's supposed to happen in capitalism, there is no conspiracy and nothing to whine about here.

 

[Im2bent]

No, he's exactly right, and this word salad is wrong on many levels. Comparing Hornady to Walmart is the commercial equivalent of comparing any political group I don't like to Nazis, stupid.

Unless the private equity and foreign owned bullet makers have enforceable IP on the shape of their metal chunks and bother to enforce it, they make a commodity and American owned companies can also make the same commodity. If they have a legal monopoly on something key to their little metal chucks in the form of a patent , and it's worth it to them, they can defend their IP and fend the American intruder off. If they differentiate themselves with a higher level of quality and/or lower price than the American owned company, they are still going to sell to their core market looking for that quality, if they can't, they've been out competed.

There is no big bad wolf here telling Berger or Sierra to sell them their bullets at a loss only to outsource to China later. There is no location constrained "town" here for Hornady to take over, any of these competing manufacturers can sell anywhere they'd like. This is competition in the market place, exactly as it's supposed to happen in capitalism, there is no conspiracy and nothing to whine about here.

So it's OK for leofoto to make "clone" tripods got it.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Yep, It's a Boomer Fudd mentality. They are one huge reason our country is as fucked as it is today... "Piss away the future for a better today, we won't be around to see it..." And the whole, "I just don't understand why you can't live off of $50,000 a year and buy your own house, back in my day, I had a house, 3 kids, a wife who stayed at home with them, and did it all on $25,000 a year..."

In 1970 a house was like $35,000, a good new car was $5,000, and gas like $0.35 a gallon...And everything you own is paid for. But yeah, tell me again Pops how the average house in 2024 at $400,000 w/ interest rates in the double-digits, gas at $4.00 a gallon, and cars costing $75,000 average for a decent one maths out to $50,000 a year being "enough"...

You are forgetting that interest rates in the 70’s were between 7-13%.
In 1981 it was 18%


Back to the subject at hand.
I have around 1500 Hornady .308 178 BTHP bullets that shoot horribly.
The Aeromatch are going to be sold only in boxes of 500 or cases of 3,000.
Will I take a chance that they may be as bad?

In 6.5 I am nearly through a 2,000 round batch of 147 ELD-M’s that were mediocre at best.
The ELD-M here in Canada sell for $75.99 a box.
The 139gr Lapua Scenar sell for $69.99 a box of 100 or $625 for a box of 1,000. Those shoot much better than the Hornady.

Berger is nearly impossible to find here in any meaningful volume.

The problem with the Hornady is not the design of their bullets but the consistency of their product. If they can’t get their consistency back on track no matter what bullet design they use they will never be as good as the product they are trying to copy.

 

[FuhQ]

You are forgetting that interest rates in the 70’s were between 7-13%.
In 1981 it was 18%

True, but the median house’s equivalent wasn’t remotely near the $400,000 that it is today.

 

[supercorndogs]

My thoughts on trimming based on the shoulder. If your bump is so inconsistent that your trim lengths are all over the place with trimmer indexing off the shoulder. You have a bigger sizing problem than trimming problem. If your bumps are or in the .001 to .004 ES. That much trim length diffrence isn't making a diffrence for 99 percent of shooters, maybe more.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I heard Temu is going to be the official vendor for these bullets.

 

[The_Steward]

Considering the response by the Berger and Sierra on social media, probably not a request by the OEM (Berger and Sierra being the original). Even if I ignore the ethics and morality of the business decision, my thoughts on the product remains. Will this product have the same manufacturing tolerances that Berger has on their bullets, as in +/- 0.1gr in bullet weight, +/-0.0003 jacket thickness or will it have Hornady level acceptable variation?

If it's Hornady level variation, then customers will remember why they went with Berger bullets in the first place.

If someone was to try to make the argument a pale imitation would be good for closer distance practice (<300yds), then my counter argument is, it's cheaper to just buy factory seconds bullets for around under $0.25 a round. The Aero Match isn't much cheaper than factory first originals and in the case of like the 175gr Aeromatch, preliminary pricing looks like it's the exact same price as the Sierra.

As for Hornady copying the Sierra 168 and 175 Matchkings... I've only seen them out of stock during the height of covid . Didn't even know there was an availability problem with these.


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*An* not *the*. I'm saying an ammo manufacturer asked them; not Berger and Sierra.

 

[The_Steward]

Also, in before Hornady moves production overseas and floods the market with chicom projectiles once they've run Berger and Sierra out of business.

 

[FuhQ]

Bergers from Wish.com…

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Also, in before Hornady moves production overseas and floods the market with chicom projectiles once they've run Berger and Sierra out of business.

The latter part is never going to happen, if it was their ELD-M’s would have done it for match bullets but plenty of people will spend the money for bullets that don’t have shit QC with consistency all over the damn place and don’t turn into gray puffs before hitting the target.

I’ve always had a strong opinion of Hornady for their mediocre at best quality and how they’re just a marketing company that for the most part just reinvents the ideas of other as their own but I’ve continued to buy a lot of their stuff. Blatantly ripping off other companies bullet designs and making cheap knockoffs (while claiming to perfect them LOL) is crossing a different moral line for me though. I don’t think it’s enough to make me take my 7PRC to the scrap yard or take a giant dump on my Hornady stool but I don’t think I’ll be buying anything else with their name on it.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Maybe the reason you could buy hornady bullets when Sierra and Bergers were impossible to find is their inferior quality. They are cheaper so it's not a price issue.

They have to steal the competitions design and don't even pretend about it. It's like kia making a f150 ripoff and calling it the f151.

When small companies do not have any incentive to create new products becuase their designs will just be stollen by large corporations we all loose.

 

[Jackomason]

Wonder how this will effect lapua brass availability for the hornady cartridges. I guess if the bottom line is all that matters then things won't change much. I also seems to remember hearing that hornady was not willing to release any 6.8 (.277) bullets because of the 6.8 western being a real threat.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I thought it was stated on one of their podcasts that they won’t do anything for 6.8W because it’s a direct competitor of both the 6.5 and 7 PRC’s.

If brass companies didn’t make brass for the Hornady cartridges that would certainly put a damper on some of their offerings for reloaders at least because their brass is the absolute shittiest on the market.

 

[Jackomason]

If Lapua decided to drop the 6.5CM I'd switch to the 6.5x47 after this barrel. That's a huge investment in tooling to drop but I guess it depends how salty they are. The same high volume shooters that hornady is chasing happens to be the lapua customer base.