Hornadys new ELD VT

[Kiba]

That was more for the AR guys in the 22arc caliber they recommend the 1:7 twist. Not for a bolt gun reloading the 62gr ELD-VT bullets. Guess there’s only one way to find out for sure tho

I believe someone mentioned Hornady is going to have a full model of the eld-vt line in their 4dof solver that takes the large hollow point into account in the bullet modeling, so if you use the stability calcs in 4dof that would be the best way to determine stability for a given twist rate.

 

[JR1200W3]

theyre saying 3300 fps in a 22 arc? which is 7 tw

I'd be very surprised. 3050 out of a 22" 22 Grendel using CFE223 is high pressure.

 

[JR1200W3]

Here is a novel idea: How about Hornady make a 60ish grain variant that can actually be used in existing AR15s.

Then everybody is happy.

They do. It's the 60gr VMAX. And it's a great bullet. It's been accurate in everything I've shot it in.

I'm pretty sure they made this bullet exclusively for their 22 ARC coming out.

 

[JR1200W3]

I have a 26" 1:7.5" .223 barrel for my field gun. I usually shoot 75gr at 2930fps. I bet at my 6000ft elevation and 3050fps it would stabilize just fine. This will be a great bullet for the .223 trainers.

 

[JAS-SH]

First response was very excited. Afterwards total disappointment. These bullets (so far) for the .22 cal version cannot be loaded in an AR. How stupid is that?

They said the bullet is too long for 'mag length'. Hence it can only be used in certain bolt actions that have a fast enough twist or in their new 22 ARC.

Not being able to load to mag length is not true. Not being able to load the bullets in a 5.56 chambered round is true, can't do that. You could but would lose a lot of powder charge and performance would be degraded.

These bullets are meant for the 22 ARC, not the 5.56. Easy swap - barrel, bolt face and mag, Not because of mag length but because of geometry.

 

[Molon]

They do. It's the 60gr VMAX. And it's a great bullet. It's been accurate in everything I've shot it in.

I'm pretty sure they made this bullet exclusively for their 22 ARC coming out.

Indeed.

Even the factory loaded ammunition is quite accurate fired from an AR-15. A 10-shot group of the Hornady TAP load using the 60 grain V- MAX had an extreme spread of 0.88" at 100 yards.

.....

 

[JAS-SH]

This might be a problem if you plan on running anything faster than a 7.5 twist unless you're just running them slow af.


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I find it funny that people are complaining about twist rates, while 15~20 years ago I bought a Sig 516 with a 7:1 twist - I specifically chose that weapon for the twist rate. Buy once cry once!

 

[357Max]

Not being able to load to mag length is not true. Not being able to load the bullets in a 5.56 chambered round is true, can't do that. You could but would lose a lot of powder charge and performance would be degraded.

These bullets are meant for the 22 ARC, not the 5.56. Easy swap - barrel, bolt face and mag, Not because of mag length but because of geometry.

Based on numbers provided by @Ledzep, I don't see why these wouldn't work in a 223W AR. I'm talking hand loads though not factory.

62gr ELD VT 1.050" oal & .600" ogive. This appears to be much closer to the 73 eldm than the 75

This is very close to the bullets that shoot well in my 223W AR's in 10.5", 16", & 18"

73 eldm 1.036" oal & .583" ogive AR load length 2.290
75 BTHP .991" oal & .569" ogive AR std mag length 2.260
77 SMK 1.000" oal & .590" ogive AR std mag length 2.260
77 RDF 1.075" oal & .603" ogive AR load length 2.290 / Bolt gun same chamber 2.438
77 TMK 1.065" oal & .617" ogive AR load length 2.290 / Bolt gun Same chamber 2.433

For comparison the 75 eldm 1.111" & .559" The 75 eldm's will not shoot in my AR's

Sucks that a factory load isn't going to be offered for the 224 Valkyrie using this new bullet. Most are already 6.5 or 7T
I understand why, but seams kind of an obvious attempt to pimp the 22ARC. Of course it beats the Valk loaded with 60 Vmax. Apples to apples they would be pretty damn close.

62 eld vt looks great for 22ARC, 224V, 223 bolt guns (possibly AR), 22 Grendel, & 22 Nosler (bolt guns).

IMO it's going to be to light for higher capacity cases. My 22GT is a 24" 7T and runs 90 SMK @ 3100 on cruse control. GRT is showing a mild load of RL15.5 will give 3550 fps in the 22 GT. There's no way the thin AMP jacket is going to make it down range at 365,000 rpm. Never mind a 22 Creed.

Rinse and repeat for the 6 & 6.5mm VT's. Great for the small capacity cases & not so much for the others.

I'd suggest Hornady give us a .223 78gr A-tip VT in the 88gr eldm form factor with a thicker jacket, A 92gr A-tip VT 6mm based on say a 103eldx, & a 120gr 6.5 A-tip VT based on a 135 A-tip form. That would rock for matches with intermediate calibers. It would actually make the 6ARC a lot more competitive in a gas gun. I bet those would still explode on varmints. The A-tip should also help offset the CG a little farther forward so it might have a prayer at transitioning through trans-sonic.

The 308 looks special!! I can't wait to get my hands on some of those. Hello Staball Match & 2800 with an AW mag

 

[Ledzep]

Push them fast enough and they will stabilize in a slower twist.

ehh.... ehh.

Sometimes maybe. In many cases SG actually increases with lower MV and decreases with higher MV because of the extra drag force. The velocity term in the total drag equation gets squared so even if you see incremental decreases in Cd as you go faster, the net drag increases a LOT and any angle of attack makes things want to go sideways in a hurry. Usually ends up that from Mach 0.8-3.5 you see a little bit of walk in SG numbers, but changing twist rate an inch or two you see huge steps in SG numbers.

 

[Potsy]

I’m wondering how the eld-vt’s will be priced.
Like regular eld’s? Or like A-tips?

 

[Molon]

Push them fast enough and they will stabilize in a slower twist.

mmmm . . . No.

It’s largely Internet Commando myth that bullet stability increases with increasing barrel length. Technically, the gyroscopic stability factor does increase with increased barrel length, however the amount that it increases is miniscule and lost in the noise of other variables.

As an example, the 55 grain bullet in M193 will have a gyroscopic stability factor of approximately 4.25 when fired from a 14.5” Colt M4 barrel. When the same M193 round is fired from the 5.75” longer barrel of the 20” Colt A2 barrel, the gyroscopic stability factor of the 55 grain bullet only increases to approximately 4.27.

While the increased RPM due to the faster velocity will act to increase the bullet stability, the increased velocity also “increases the force applied to the nose of the bullet at the center of pressure and strengthens the overturning aerodynamic torque which actually makes the bullet less stable.”* These two opposing dynamics are the reason for the miniscule increase in gyroscopic stability factor.


* From Applied Ballistcs For Long-Range Shooting by Bryan Litz

 

[CMP70306]

@Ledzep

So I have some questions on the 174gr ELD-VT

1.) What is the length and BC?
2.) Will it expand at subsonic speeds due to the large cavity?
3.) How slow does it have to go to not grenade on whitetail deer?

I have a 20” 30-06 with an 8 twist that I would be very interested to shoot these in both sub and supersonic if I could. Currently 178gr Precision Hunter gives me around 2700 fps so is that slow enough to get adequate penetration?

 

[Ledzep]

@Ledzep

So I have some questions on the 174gr ELD-VT

1.) What is the length and BC?
2.) Will it expand at subsonic speeds due to the large cavity?
3.) How slow does it have to go to not grenade on whitetail deer?

I have a 20” 30-06 with an 8 twist that I would be very interested to shoot these in both sub and supersonic if I could. Currently 178gr Precision Hunter gives me around 2700 fps so is that slow enough to get adequate penetration?

1. Not finalized yet. We ran some pre-production R&D bullets for initial tests but we have some changes for the final rendition. It'll be a few weeks before we run that one. I expect G1 to be in the .560-.580 range but that's an educated guess at this point.
2. No, not reliably. Probably about a 1700-1800fps bottom end on the envelope.
3. 100% NOT the bullet to "not grenade". Jacket rips away from the core even at lower velocity.

I'd keep your 178's for deer.

 

[JAS-SH]

mmmm . . . No.

It’s largely Internet Commando myth that bullet stability increases with increasing barrel length. Technically, the gyroscopic stability factor does increase with increased barrel length, however the amount that it increases is miniscule and lost in the noise of other variables.

As an example, the 55 grain bullet in M193 will have a gyroscopic stability factor of approximately 4.25 when fired from a 14.5” Colt M4 barrel. When the same M193 round is fired from the 5.75” longer barrel of the 20” Colt A2 barrel, the gyroscopic stability factor of the 55 grain bullet only increases to approximately 4.27.

While the increased RPM due to the faster velocity will act to increase the bullet stability, the increased velocity also “increases the force applied to the nose of the bullet at the center of pressure and strengthens the overturning aerodynamic torque which actually makes the bullet less stable.”* These two opposing dynamics are the reason for the miniscule increase in gyroscopic stability factor.


* From Applied Ballistcs For Long-Range Shooting by Bryan Litz

Thanks! Couldn't have written it better myself. People don't know what they don't know....

 

[JAS-SH]

1. Not finalized yet. We ran some pre-production R&D bullets for initial tests but we have some changes for the final rendition. It'll be a few weeks before we run that one. I expect G1 to be in the .560-.580 range but that's an educated guess at this point.
2. No, not reliably. Probably about a 1700-1800fps bottom end on the envelope.
3. 100% NOT the bullet to "not grenade". Jacket rips away from the core even at lower velocity.

I'd keep your 178's for deer.

All true. V.....T Specifically designed for: Small, thin skin critters and paper. That's IT.

 

[Molon]

Thanks! Couldn't have written it better myself. People don't know what they don't know....

De nada.

....

 

[CMP70306]

1. Not finalized yet. We ran some pre-production R&D bullets for initial tests but we have some changes for the final rendition. It'll be a few weeks before we run that one. I expect G1 to be in the .560-.580 range but that's an educated guess at this point.
2. No, not reliably. Probably about a 1700-1800fps bottom end on the envelope.
3. 100% NOT the bullet to "not grenade". Jacket rips away from the core even at lower velocity.

I'd keep your 178's for deer.

Gotcha, I listened to the podcast talking about how it grenades in the 300 PRC but wasn’t sure if the lower velocity of the shorter 06 would help keep it together.

In that case it definitely sounds like the ELD-X is the way to go for the 06 and I’ll stick with the 62gr and 100gr for the .22-250 and 6.5 Creed varmint loads.

 

[JAS-SH]

@Ledzep

So I have some questions on the 174gr ELD-VT

1.) What is the length and BC?
2.) Will it expand at subsonic speeds due to the large cavity?
3.) How slow does it have to go to not grenade on whitetail deer?

I have a 20” 30-06 with an 8 twist that I would be very interested to shoot these in both sub and supersonic if I could. Currently 178gr Precision Hunter gives me around 2700 fps so is that slow enough to get adequate penetration?

308s, 30-06s, 7mm-08s, .243s - those are all great cartridges, with a long and distinguished histories. But sadly or not the world is moving on, just like it always has. Newer bullet designs, coupled with purposely designed cartridges and with very specific chambers are taking over. And we're never going back.

No matter how much I loved my .243 and .308, time is not on their side. Though they will be around forever, especially the .308,. Just like my 45-70 and others their performance will always be nothing to sneer at.

That said I've come to accept that the world is moving on. I will accept, wait, not, I will embrace that. Better is always the way to go.

And lately, these new cartridges are indeed better.

 

[Iron Worker]

It will work in the 224 Valkyrie.

 

[CMP70306]

308s, 30-06s, 7mm-08s, .243s - those are all great cartridges, with a long and distinguished histories. But sadly or not the world is moving on, just like it always has. Newer bullet designs, coupled with purposely designed cartridges and with very specific chambers are taking over. And we're never going back.

No matter how much I loved my .243 and .308, time is not on their side. Though they will be around forever, especially the .308,. Just like my 45-70 and others their performance will always be nothing to sneer at.

That said I've come to accept that the world is moving on. I will accept, wait, not, I will embrace that. Better is always the way to go.

And lately, these new cartridges are indeed better.

Oh I know, I have a bunch of historic 30-06 rifles but wanted a modern 30-06 as it was the largest cartridge I could use that would still give me the capability of using 30 cal subs with reasonable case fill with trailboss.

That being said my other customs are a pair of 6.5 PRCs, a 6.5 Creed and a 7 PRC. The last one is a .300 Win Mag I built prior to the 300 PRC, I was already shooting the 225gr ELD at 3.6” coal so with the components I had and family with 300 Win Mags it doesn’t make sense to switch.

22 ARC will probably come next year I just have to iron out the details of a light weight AR and a can to go with it.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

1. Not finalized yet. We ran some pre-production R&D bullets for initial tests but we have some changes for the final rendition. It'll be a few weeks before we run that one. I expect G1 to be in the .560-.580 range but that's an educated guess at this point.
2. No, not reliably. Probably about a 1700-1800fps bottom end on the envelope.
3. 100% NOT the bullet to "not grenade". Jacket rips away from the core even at lower velocity.

I'd keep your 178's for deer.

Is the 100gr 6.5 ELD-VT supposed to replicate the 107 TMK?

 

[6.5SH]

Is the 100gr 6.5 ELD-VT supposed to replicate the 107 TMK?

Based on the BC would think one of the 123 gr offerings. Not seen the length listed yet though.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Based on the BC would think one of the 123 gr offerings. Not seen the length listed yet though.

Based on the BC and weight, the 100gr ELD-VT is very similar to the Sierra 107 TMK. Like, almost identical specs from what I can tell.

 

[Ledzep]

Is the 100gr 6.5 ELD-VT supposed to replicate the 107 TMK?

"supposed to", no not really. I didn't design it with the TMK in mind. It's got a similar BC and the same diameter but use-case, weight, and materials are different. Our tips do better with aerodynamic heating from the doppler results I've recorded/seen. If the VT was 7 grains heavier the BC would be another 30 points higher give or take.

I'd like to take another moment to re-emphasize that these are varmint bullets. I keep seeing tons of comments in various places about people wanting to try them on large game and I think that's a recipe for a potentially bad day. If you hit nothing but soft tissue you'll probably kill a bigger animal but you're going to have a ton of blood-shot meat, and if you hit any kind of bone or any kind of quartering shot don't expect to make it into the vitals. Max penetration on most of these is in the 6-10" range.

 

[CMP70306]

"supposed to", no not really. I didn't design it with the TMK in mind. It's got a similar BC and the same diameter but use-case, weight, and materials are different. Our tips do better with aerodynamic heating from the doppler results I've recorded/seen. If the VT was 7 grains heavier the BC would be another 30 points higher give or take.

I'd like to take another moment to re-emphasize that these are varmint bullets. I keep seeing tons of comments in various places about people wanting to try them on large game and I think that's a recipe for a potentially bad day. If you hit nothing but soft tissue you'll probably kill a bigger animal but you're going to have a ton of blood-shot meat, and if you hit any kind of bone or any kind of quartering shot don't expect to make it into the vitals. Max penetration on most of these is in the 6-10" range.

So another quick question for you, would the 100gr survive a 7 twist 18” 6.5 PRC? I’m currently shooting monos for deer but it would be nice to have a second load so it can pull double duty as a varmint rifle the other 50 weeks a year.

 

[Ledzep]

So another quick question for you, would the 100gr survive a 7 twist 18” 6.5 PRC? I’m currently shooting monos for deer but it would be nice to have a second load so it can pull double duty as a varmint rifle the other 50 weeks a year.

I'm not going to make any guarantees (I can test it to the fullest extent with the gear I have but there are thousands and thousands of people out there and they'll find a worse barrel or worse conditions than what I have in no time I'm sure) that fast of twist rate but I will say I spent a full day trying to blow them up in a PRC barrel that is known for being rough on bullets (blows up Bergers, Sierras, ELD-M's, etc...) and ran them at 3750fps and got the barrel so hot I couldn't touch it for 25-30 minutes afterwards and never had a problem... Other than the dings it put in our 300m AR-500.

 

[CMP70306]

I'm not going to make any guarantees (I can test it to the fullest extent with the gear I have but there are thousands and thousands of people out there and they'll find a worse barrel or worse conditions than what I have in no time I'm sure) that fast of twist rate but I will say I spent a full day trying to blow them up in a PRC barrel that is known for being rough on bullets (blows up Bergers, Sierras, ELD-M's, etc...) and ran them at 3750fps and got the barrel so hot I couldn't touch it for 25-30 minutes afterwards and never had a problem... Other than the dings it put in our 300m AR-500.

Now that is flat, that would give me an almost 500 yard MPBR (+/- 2 MOA keeps me in the center box on my NX8). Assuming 300 fps less with the 18” that still gives me 430 yards.

Would you be able to PM me with some of your data? Not much info out there for the lighter bullets in the PRC.

 

[Ledzep]

I'll talk with the guys that handle book data and see if we can include 6.5 PRC. It might already be on the list but I'll push for it if not. I know they've been working to get data collected for the ELD-VT's for several weeks now. I don't know what the timeline is but I'd imagine the data will approximately coincide with availability.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I'm not going to make any guarantees (I can test it to the fullest extent with the gear I have but there are thousands and thousands of people out there and they'll find a worse barrel or worse conditions than what I have in no time I'm sure) that fast of twist rate but I will say I spent a full day trying to blow them up in a PRC barrel that is known for being rough on bullets (blows up Bergers, Sierras, ELD-M's, etc...) and ran them at 3750fps and got the barrel so hot I couldn't touch it for 25-30 minutes afterwards and never had a problem... Other than the dings it put in our 300m AR-500.

@Ledzep
Looking forward to trying the 6mm offering out of my 20" 7twist 6creed I built recently.
Been running your factory 105 black at 2837fps and 95 gr Berger classic hunters for the brass and break-in with great accuracy.
Now that I have brass accumulated, I'm about to start load development with 108eldm for deer and target. Would really love if these VT work with the rapid expansion they would offer for groundhog hunting if they hold up in flight out of my setup. Think 7 twist will work?
If not, I'm looking forward to a heavier VT version in 6mm at some point.
Have you done any similar testing with the 6mm VT as you did with the PRC you mentioned above? Would love to hear about it.
Thanks.

 

[Shrubjr]

Been thinkin on this, would love some expert opinion:

If I really wanted to shoot these 62gr VT's from my 223 wylde chamber, couldn't I just handload them and use a Grendel/ARC magazine?

Am I missing somethin obvious?

I'm excited about the 100gr 6.5CM stuff too!

 

[Potsy]

Yes. You are missing the obvious, but that’s okay.

.223 CASE is longer than the ARC case. So you run out of magazine room. AR15 mags are all the same (more or less) as far as COAL.

 

[Shrubjr]

Yes. You are missing the obvious, but that’s okay.

.223 CASE is longer than the ARC case. So you run out of magazine room. AR15 mags are all the same (more or less) as far as COAL.

I see, makes sense.

 

[Vynz]

@Ledzep

As someone with a 6ARC who knows just enough to ask ridiculous questions, when would someone want to use the ELD-M over the new ELD-VT? With the VT having really close BCs and much better velocities it almost seems like the ELD-M is old news now.

 

[JAS-SH]

@Ledzep

As someone with a 6ARC who knows just enough to ask ridiculous questions, when would someone want to use the ELD-M over the new ELD-VT? With the VT having really close BCs and much better velocities it almost seems like the ELD-M is old news now.

I haven't seen horse's mouth BC's yet so I take that with a grain of salt. Furthermore Hornady uses real DCs in 4DOF anyway -different numbers. Hornady is working on a whole new ballistics system for us the public (militarily that could be a different matter), and it's a joy to watch these guys do that. They are changing our old beliefs.

I too have a 6 ARC - a 26-inch bolt. Runs in the 2780s - 2790s in mid hot weather (low/mid-80s) with box ammo - that's with a chronograph. Damned accurate rifle too!

Inside 600 no question that the VT should have the edge, at least on paper. Beyond that I believe the ELD-M 108 would seal the deal - especially in the wind. That 108 is like the energizer bunny .

Beliefs are not facts though so it all remains to be seen. Then again Hornady didn't name it Varmint/Target without a reason.

All speculation at this point....

 

[mrcheesemoose]

I haven't seen horse's mouth BC's yet so I take that with a grain of salt. Furthermore Hornady uses real DCs in 4DOF anyway -different numbers. Hornady is working on a whole new ballistics system for us the public (militarily that could be a different matter), and it's a joy to watch these guys do that. They are changing our old beliefs.

I too have a 6 ARC - a 26-inch bolt. Runs in the 2780s - 2790s in mid hot weather (low/mid-80s) with box ammo - that's with a chronograph. Damned accurate rifle too!

Inside 600 no question that the VT should have the edge, at least on paper. Beyond that I believe the ELD-M 108 would seal the deal - especially in the wind. That 108 is like the energizer bunny .

Beliefs are not facts though so it all remains to be seen. Then again Hornady didn't name it Varmint/Target without a reason.

All speculation at this point....

When it comes to additional weight, that helps a lot more when it comes to ULR ranges. Like a mile and beyond. The more weight you can slug down range, the more velocity retention, and wind drift decrease you’ll get.

 

[Lawnboi]

Think an 8 twist would stabilize the 62 in a wylde 223 bolt gun?

 

[dgheriani]

Any idea on a ballpark speed for the 100gr in an 18" 6.5 Creed (currently pushing 140 ELDMs at 2650)?

 

[xsn10s]

I'd like to get the dimensions of the 62 gr. If it mirrors the 75 ELDM then we could use the AR15 with the mods mentioned by TonyTheTiger.

 

[Ledzep]

Think an 8 twist would stabilize the 62 in a wylde 223 bolt gun?

Should be fine.

Any idea on a ballpark speed for the 100gr in an 18" 6.5 Creed (currently pushing 140 ELDMs at 2650)?

3050 give or take.

I'd like to get the dimensions of the 62 gr. If it mirrors the 75 ELDM then we could use the AR15 with the mods mentioned by TonyTheTiger.

Ogives should be the same.

 

[Ledzep]

@Ledzep

As someone with a 6ARC who knows just enough to ask ridiculous questions, when would someone want to use the ELD-M over the new ELD-VT? With the VT having really close BCs and much better velocities it almost seems like the ELD-M is old news now.

The age old trade off between drag and velocity is still relevant. Lower drag (higher BC) is usually better in the wind, and for long range use will eventually win out. Lighter weight is going to be flatter to a point but will have more wind deflection.

Personal use case will dictate which is better.

 

[Capt45]

I for one am looking forward to trying some of the 62's in a 223 bolt gun on groundhogs

My bolt gun prefers that weight bullet.

 

[dgheriani]

Should be fine.

3050 give or take.

Ogives should be the same.

Awesome, thanks. That will be crazy flat.

 

[RabbitSlayer48]

Holy smokes the comments are ridiculous. These look amazing for zapping prairie dogs and rock chucks at long ranges. I think my next build will be a 22BR just for this bullet instead of the 10 twist I was going to run.

 

[SixFive-O]

Very excited for these versions for 6.5 Grendel, 6mm ARC, and 22 ARC.

Anyone got an official SAAMI reamer print for the new 22 ARC? Checked the SAAMI site, but couldn't find it.

 

[BadKarmaIII]

Hornady site says .266 G7 for the 6.5 ELD-VT.
Ledzep says .226.
Looking at the G1, I think the site is wrong.
.266 would be an astonishing performer if it were real.

 

[260284]

9 twist most likely not going to stabilize it.

How about a 8 twist? I shoot the 75gr ELDM out of my 1-8 223 with great results.

 

[357Max]

How about a 8 twist? I shoot the 75gr ELDM out of my 1-8 223 with great results.

post #89 above

 

[260284]

@Ledzep what is the optimal twist for the 80gr .244 bullet? I have a 1-7.5 that I shoot the 87gr V-Max out of and these look like they have a little better BC and I should be able to push them a little faster.

 

[Capt45]

Just ordered a CZ .223 that has a 1:7 twist; going to load up some 77gn'ers and see how they fly.

 

[st1650]

Holy smokes the comments are ridiculous. These look amazing for zapping prairie dogs and rock chucks at long ranges. I think my next build will be a 22BR just for this bullet instead of the 10 twist I was going to run.

Agreed. I have a 26in 7tw 224 blank that I was planning chamber a 223 rem match throat for the 80.5 loaded at 2.525 and these 62 would be perfect.
If these perform as good on paper,might even replace my 204R