I got pulled over.

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Again, you acted like a dick. Just decline to answer the questions and let it go.
Are you that fucking dense that you can't see the difference between either silence or "I'd rather not answer" and "none of your business, now write me a ticket"?

The ticket was not an issue. Write it or not it makes no difference to me. I have had many stops where the officer did similar to what you say below. I have no problem with that. But when you start with the 50 questions I have a problem. I am like 99.9% of the other citizens you have stopped for a traffic violation. To treat our interaction on the offense as a way to bust Juan Pablo?

Yeah, I know exactly how I interact with the citizens.
I introduce my self and the agency I work for.
I tell them the reason for the stop.
If they are speeding, I ask if there is a reason for the excessive speed.
I get their information, if they produce and I run them.
I normally decide before I make my approach whether they are going to get a ticket or a warning.
Everything else falls on the violator.
Act like a dick, you get a ticket for the infraction. Nothing made up, no bullshit. I'm doing my job.
Give me a reasonable excuse, I might let it go with a warning (hint: if you are 10 0r over and you say it's because you have to piss, that doesn't work).

Isn't it odd that many folks that have warrants, don't produce their drivers license. They give you a name and date of birth, or they give you a number they have memorized. Then you have to figure out who they are.
Guess what: you do that by asking questions.

There you have it. No license? No ID? No registration? No insurance? All legit reasons to go further. AND you know the difference.
Like I said earlier. How you treat me is how you get it back. But if you say because Of the way I answered that question I was being a dick. You are wrong. I was being a dick because I was being questioned/interrogated to upgrade a simple speeding ticket.
I am sure you have heard every excuse in the book. You and I both know the person was aware of what they were doing 99% of the time. I was doing over 80 in a 65. I saw the officer put his lights on. I stopped and waited for him with my papers ready. The conversation started like above. I am officer John Doe. I clocked you at 83. I said cool that means my speedo is pretty accurate. Do you know of a good excuse that will get me out of this ticket? He laughed and took my papers. When he came back he gave me a seatbelt ticket and told me to slow down. I drive close to 40K miles a year. Tickets are part of life/business.

 

[deersniper]

If you dealt with some true bad apples mixed in with lazy plus some irs wannabes you might feel different.

Not everywhere is mayberry

And 11pages of bullshit! What whaaat!

If you knew me personally you would never consider me a badge bunny . I’m about as pure outlaw as non felonious outlaw could get.

My family is divided between cops and fireman. I understand public service, unlike some of you mofos

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Well I am glad you took me off ignore.

I know that's not how it's done. But y'all the ones with the problem. Contempt of cop? Distrust? You can look back through this thread and the other one. Many things are done to tarnish your image. Your PATENT answers. You are not on the job so you don't know shit. We are just doing our job. You're a dick cop hater..........

worked, works now, or will work in the future. Get mad all you want.[/QUOTE]

Not a bit mad. Like I said. Don't matter to me. I ain't the one that people/media are taking their frustrations out on. It's on your backs to change that or deal/live with it.
You may be a great officer. Your interactions may be model for every officer. But what about officer Dickbag you work with? Even though you don't like it. You will catch shit for what he does. The citizen that he was a little rough on will tell 10 friends. How's that work for your reputation?

 

[Long Range 338]

You want to get to the bottom? It takes a hard look at multiple areas and being open to look at it from another view point. It's no different from what is being not discussed in the Obama legacy thread.
Do the politics play a part?
Do the police own a part?
The media? Joe citizen/society?
What role are each one playing and how to make changes?
This thread has a lot of finger pointing but few ideas for change?

I believe a good way to change the dynamic would be to get LE Organizations to stop taking the Fed dollars as I'm sure it has strings like all other Fed money that dictates how and what it can be used for (and what the training is like). For example being in a VERY small town and the local LE have a standard procedure of flashlight in the eyes and hand on the Glock because every citizen (with local plates) is dangerous, or the LEO is worried about going home every night. I understand it is for their safety BUT there is a difference between doing the job in a large city and doing the job in the backwoods. Obviously it is very easy to throw sticks as an outsider but that doesn't make it incorrect.

We would do well to do the same thing with Education, Healthcare, etc. Take the damn Fed money out of the equation and all of the sudden common sense local solutions could be used to get more done with better result.

 

[deersniper]

Officer safety blah blah blah
.gov is supposed to be composed of public servants. Instead we have tyrants with 2 or 3 sets of laws.

It would go a long way to earning respect if
Laws applied equally
Lying or planting evidence resulted in a mandatory life sentence.
Lawsuit damages came from police funds
Harassing someone while on duty due to off duty disagreements resulted in a mandatory life sentence

Lol like any of that would ever happen

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

WTF does Napoleon have to do with this?

BTW: less than 20

 

[1J04]

Just say'n.



in·ad·e·quate
inˈadikwət/
adjective

1. lacking the quality or quantity required; insufficient for a purpose.
   "these labels prove to be wholly inadequate"
   synonyms:insufficient, deficient, poor, scant, scanty, scarce, sparse, in short supply; More
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   • (of a person) unable to deal with a situation or with life.
     "a sad, solitary, inadequate man"

 

[1J04]

Officer safety blah blah blah
.gov is supposed to be composed of public servants. Instead we have tyrants with 2 or 3 sets of laws.

It would go a long way to earning respect if
Laws applied equally
Lying or planting evidence resulted in a mandatory life sentence.
Lawsuit damages came from police funds
Harassing someone while on duty due to off duty disagreements resulted in a mandatory life sentence

Lol like any of that would ever happen

Sounds like you're a shit magnet my friend. What's that they say about the guy that keeps repeating everywhere he goes, "Everyone around here is an asshole"? Or are ya just an ornery cuss?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I believe a good way to change the dynamic would be to get LE Organizations to stop taking the Fed dollars as I'm sure it has strings like all other Fed money that dictates how and what it can be used for (and what the training is like). For example being in a VERY small town and the local LE have a standard procedure of flashlight in the eyes and hand on the Glock because every citizen (with local plates) is dangerous, or the LEO is worried about going home every night. I understand it is for their safety BUT there is a difference between doing the job in a large city and doing the job in the backwoods. Obviously it is very easy to throw sticks as an outsider but that doesn't make it incorrect.

We would do well to do the same thing with Education, Healthcare, etc. Take the damn Fed money out of the equation and all of the sudden common sense local solutions could be used to get more done with better result.

Honest and serious question. Do you have an issue with the light in the eyes? If so, what issue do you have? Also if so, what would be your suggestion?

I'd honestly like to hear your opinion.

As far as the LE point of view goes.......at night when I approach someone, I'm always going to have a light on them. I may or may not be directed at their face (sometimes on purpose, sometimes not). Once I deem there is no risk to my safety, I usually make a conscious effort to be courteous with the direction of the light so as to not continually blind them.

 

[deersniper]

Sounds like you're a shit magnet my friend. What's that they say about the guy that keeps repeating everywhere he goes, "Everyone around here is an asshole"? Or are ya just an ornery cuss?

You know a non shitbird would have no issue with any of the items I suggested.

 

[1J04]

You know a non shitbird would have no issue with any of the items I suggested.

Why is 1J04 always wrong? Pepperidge Farm remembers when I use to be a good guesser. Come on page 12!!!! Do'n what i can.........

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

in·fe·ri·or·i·ty com·plex
noun

1. an unrealistic feeling of general inadequacy caused by actual or supposed inferiority in one sphere, sometimes marked by aggressive behavior in compensation.

Just say'n.

Come big or stay at home is what I say.

 

[W54/XM-388]

For example being in a VERY small town and the local LE have a standard procedure of flashlight in the eyes and hand on the Glock because every citizen (with local plates) is dangerous, or the LEO is worried about going home every night.

In my NON professional opinion, there is one significant problem with that policy, you shine a bright light in someone's eyes at night & now they can't see who you are and decide if it's actually the police or if it's the drug dealers / meth heads trying to get a drop on them.

Let's say the issue is reversed & the police pull up to someone's house, get out of their vehicles & are hit in the face with a huge blinding powerful spotlight, I would guess they would be rightly quite scared of being attacked while they are at a disadvantage.

I'd say in either case there is a chance bullets may one day start flying when all would have been good if both parties could identify themselves.

Perhaps suggest they shine a light on the person more in the chest / stomach / hands area so the person can identify them as the police while clearly watching for any threatening weapons.

In addition like we saw in that recent "swatting" case, the instinctive reaction for people is to bring their hands to their face to shield their eyes... then some nervous type providing backup shoots them dead because "well his hands moved near his waist" the problem being that the normal human gait & posture has your hands slightly below your waist & to pull them up with anything but some dance move brings them near the waist. (This again is an actual case that will most likely cost the local taxpayers millions to resolve, while the situation setup was the fault of a known career criminal, none the less due to bad decisions / tactics, it will cost the taxpayers a very large sum & even if the criminal that set it up is convicted & goes to prison, he won't be able to pay back even a small part of the costs).

I'm just suggesting this because in the end we want everyone to be home safe at the end of the night / watch / patrol.

 

[Alex126]

I've had both good and bad interactions with LE.

Last year someone called the cops because a friend and I were shooting in the national forest (totally within our rights). Park Rangers showed up, we talked, wound up showing them our rigs and one of them bought an RPR the next week.

Also had an incident in Sandusky where we were pulled for window tint on my buddy's car. We were super polite and respectful but it didn't matter. The guy treated us like we had MS-13 tattoos on our faces, accused us both of being intoxicated (even though we blew .00) and took our guns. No charges were filed and it took months to get them out of evidence.

My brother is a deputy. I know quite a few local LE where I'm at. IMO they all exhibit the same "us vs them" mentality, and that's the real issue at hand.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I've had both good and bad interactions with LE.

Last year someone called the cops because a friend and I were shooting in the national forest (totally within our rights). Park Rangers showed up, we talked, wound up showing them our rigs and one of them bought an RPR the next week.

Also had an incident in Sandusky where we were pulled for window tint on my buddy's car. We were super polite and respectful but it didn't matter. The guy treated us like we had MS-13 tattoos on our faces, accused us both of being intoxicated (even though we blew .00) and took our guns. No charges were filed and it took months to get them out of evidence.

My brother is a deputy. I know quite a few local LE where I'm at. IMO they all exhibit the same "us vs them" mentality, and that's the real issue at hand.

What was their reason for taking your guns?? Even being in LE, I've had other LEOs want to seize weapons and had to explain to them we didn't have any legal justification for the seizure.

I think there are definitely people on both sides who have that us vs them mentality. It definitely doesn't help either side.

 

[Dthomas3523]

In my NON professional opinion, there is one significant problem with that policy, you shine a bright light in someone's eyes at night & now they can't see who you are and decide if it's actually the police or if it's the drug dealers / meth heads trying to get a drop on them.

Let's say the issue is reversed & the police pull up to someone's house, get out of their vehicles & are hit in the face with a huge blinding powerful spotlight, I would guess they would be rightly quite scared of being attacked while they are at a disadvantage.

I'd say in either case there is a chance bullets may one day start flying when all would have been good if both parties could identify themselves.

Perhaps suggest they shine a light on the person more in the chest / stomach / hands area so the person can identify them as the police while clearly watching for any threatening weapons.

In addition like we saw in that recent "swatting" case, the instinctive reaction for people is to bring their hands to their face to shield their eyes... then some nervous type providing backup shoots them dead because "well his hands moved near his waist" the problem being that the normal human gait & posture has your hands slightly below your waist & to pull them up with anything but some dance move brings them near the waist. (This again is an actual case that will most likely cost the local taxpayers millions to resolve, while the situation setup was the fault of a known career criminal, none the less due to bad decisions / tactics, it will cost the taxpayers a very large sum & even if the criminal that set it up is convicted & goes to prison, he won't be able to pay back even a small part of the costs).

I'm just suggesting this because in the end we want everyone to be home safe at the end of the night / watch / patrol.

Good points.

The legal response is, can you justify feeling that your life was in danger based on having a light shined in your eyes? Depending on the situation, you may be able to. You can't justify it when there are red and blues on, or a marked unit there and a light gets shined at you. You could justify it if someone beat on your door in the middle of the night, didn't announce anything, and just shined a light in your face as soon as you opened the door.

I'm not saying people won't shoot.......but you have to be able to justify it. Civilian or LE all the same.

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

As far as traffic stops go, rolling your windows down and turning the dome light on helps calm an approaching officers demeanor a lot!

Also don’t reach for anything till they ask, it would seem a good idea to have license and registration in hand except to the officer all they see is you reach for something.

Ever notice how most leo’s Touch your car with their bare hands as they approach? That’s in case you shoot them in the face (they left evidence on your ride).Speaks volumes to the nature of that business.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Ever notice how most leo’s Touch your car with their bare hands as they approach? That’s in case you shoot them in the face (they left evidence on your ride).Speaks volumes to the nature of that business.

Is that also possibly for 2 other reasons, one to check that the engine is off & also to check that the trunk is closed so they know you didn't pop the latch so a "trunk monkey" could jump them from behind?
(I check my trunk latch & around the car before I get in usually as well, the fruits of watching too many horror movies).

 

[Dthomas3523]

As far as traffic stops go, rolling your windows down and turning the dome light on helps calm an approaching officers demeanor a lot!

Also don’t reach for anything till they ask, it would seem a good idea to have license and registration in hand except to the officer all they see is you reach for something.

Ever notice how most leo’s Touch your car with their bare hands as they approach? That’s in case you shoot them in the face (they left evidence on your ride).Speaks volumes to the nature of that business.

This is my routine when I am stopped off duty.

• I turn the vehicle off
• I turn the dome light on
• I don't lean over to get anything (registration/insurance) before the officer comes up
• Keep my hands at 10 and 2

Once the officer comes up and gives me instructions

I tell the officer where whatever he is asking for and what I'm going to do (example "Sir, my wallet is in my left rear pocket, I'm going to get it for you now."

Depending on the situation I may or may not inform the officer I am off duty and carrying a weapon. I don't want to come off as I'm trying to badge him. However if any of my movements may expose my weapon, I promptly tell the officer.

"Officer, I need to inform you that I have a weapon on my right hip. How would you like to go about this" ( and don't move until the officer decides how he/she would like you to proceed.
"Do you have a permit for that?"
"I have my credentials"

 

[QuickNDirty]

Is that also possibly for 2 other reasons, one to check that the engine is off & also to check that the trunk is closed so they know you didn't pop the latch so a "trunk monkey" could jump them from behind?
(I check my trunk latch & around the car before I get in usually as well, the fruits of watching too many horror movies).

 

[Dthomas3523]

Is that also possibly for 2 other reasons, one to check that the engine is off & also to check that the trunk is closed so they know you didn't pop the latch so a "trunk monkey" could jump them from behind?
(I check my trunk latch & around the car before I get in usually as well, the fruits of watching too many horror movies).

• Leave your prints on the vehicle
• Feel for vibration to indicate vehicle on or off
• Make sure the trunk is shut

I also won't get out of my unit to approach the vehicle until I see the reverse lights flash (indicating the put the vehicle into park). Every single time I have been on a stop where I didn't see the reverse lights, the driver was waiting for me to step out of the vehicle so he/she can take off. I sit there waiting and they always speed off and I am a step ahead of not having to run back to my unit.

 

[MtnCreek]

Proper way:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[QuickNDirty]

• Leave your prints on the vehicle
• Feel for vibration to indicate vehicle on or off
• Make sure the trunk is shut

I also won't get out of my unit to approach the vehicle until I see the reverse lights flash (indicating the put the vehicle into park). Every single time I have been on a stop where I didn't see the reverse lights, the driver was waiting for me to step out of the vehicle so he/she can take off. I sit there waiting and they always speed off and I am a step ahead of not having to run back to my unit.

You'd be waiting a long time on me.. I drive a manual.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You'd be waiting a long time on me.. I drive a manual.

If it takes too long, I'll use the speaker to tell them to turn it off and put the keys on the top of the vehicle. But I rarely see any manuals nowadays, sadly.

I should qualify my tactic with the fact that I don't currently work where I would be making stops for minor traffic violations. If I stop someone and my suspicion is correct, its a felony.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

You'd be waiting a long time on me.. I drive a manual.

Yep, or the enterprising person who install's extra switches an other interesting stuff for most every contingency. When it's time to be a felon, go big or go home. LOL

 

[Alex126]

What was their reason for taking your guns?? Even being in LE, I've had other LEOs want to seize weapons and had to explain to them we didn't have any legal justification for the seizure.

I think there are definitely people on both sides who have that us vs them mentality. It definitely doesn't help either side.

Honestly I don't really know. He was running his mouth about taking us to jail and that couldn't happen so I stayed quiet. We got our guns back as soon as we got a paper from the court showing that there were no charges, but that took months because nobody would answer the phone.

In any event that was the last time I'll visit Cedar Point.

 

[RyanScott]

I was disarmed and frisked once when I called to report a burglary. In the end we knew who the burglar was but they wouldn’t put a case on him.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I was disarmed and frisked once when I called to report a burglary. In the end we knew who the burglar was but they wouldn’t put a case on him.

Temporarily disarmed and frisked is much different than a seizure. That would lead to a very long conversation about officer safety. Sure, you know you’re harmless......but the cop has no idea.

I’m totally against seizing guns (and other things) for no reasonable legal reason.

 

[RyanScott]

In the terms of Terry, what happened was a seizure. I doubt the officers could articulate reasonable suspicion that I was committing any crimes. Do you disarm people you lack reasonable suspicion to seize?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I don't see anything wrong with how Yankee handled his stop. His view of the OP stop is skewed. Either way I hope his ego is not trying to teach us a lesson. Like going to the VA getting 90 days script of opiates and speeding home.

 

[Dthomas3523]

In the terms of Terry, what happened was a seizure. I doubt the officers could articulate reasonable suspicion that I was committing any crimes. Do you disarm people you lack reasonable suspicion to seize?

Please explain why it was considered a seizure?

I don’t seize your ID when I am looking at it, just like I don’t seize a weapon if I temporarily remove it from a situation. The courts give LEOs very wide latitude if they can articulate the reason for removing a weapon.

If an officer is called for robbery, it would likely be considered reasonable to temporarily remove any weapons from the scene until the officer can sort out who is who. Again, you know that you are harmless, but the officer doesn’t.

You could definitely say that by having your ID or weapon that you are being detained. Depends on the situation.

Was your firearm returned once the officer was done with the scene? If so, it was likely not a seizure.

 

[MtnCreek]

Please explain why it was considered a seizure?

I don’t seize your ID when I am looking at it, just like I don’t seize a weapon if I temporarily remove it from a situation. The courts give LEOs very wide latitude if they can articulate the reason for removing a weapon.

If an officer is called for robbery, it would likely be considered reasonable to temporarily remove any weapons from the scene until the officer can sort out who is who. Again, you know that you are harmless, but the officer doesn’t.

You could definitely say that by having your ID or weapon that you are being detained. Depends on the situation.

Was your firearm returned once the officer was done with the scene? If so, it was likely not a seizure.

If you're talking about disarming someone reporting a burglary at their home or other private property where they have a legal right to be and say on who can and cannot be there, you should be prepaired to leave once told you are no longer welcome. That's the nicest way I know to say it.

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

OP should change the title to

1. Bitch about police
2. Ask a cop (then bitch)
Or
3. Cops vs civilians

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you're talking about disarming someone reporting a burglary at their home or other private property where they have a legal right to be and say on who can and cannot be there, you should be prepaired to leave once told you are no longer welcome. That's the nicest way I know to say it.

Depends on the situation at the time. That's what makes conversations like this very difficult. One seemingly tiny fact can change the entire situation.

And yes, as long as I'm consensually on property, if I am asked/told to leave, I would have to do so. Though based on the nature of the call, I would probably ask for some verification that I am speaking to the caller/property owner to ensure I'm not leaving someone in harm's way.

But its also reasonable if I am called to a burglary call and someone opens the door with a gun, I can ask that person to either secure the weapon or allow me to secure it before I walk into somewhere I don't have all the facts about.

You don't want me on your property if I'm not comfortable with weapons involved (depending on the nature of the scene/call) and I'm not going somewhere I don't have a very good chance of performing my duties in a safe manner for all involved.

Especially in today's climate........would it not be reasonable that someone would make a bogus call to lure an officer into a house or other structure to do them harm? Is it not also reasonable that a person called in a burglary and didn't realize said burglar was still in the home, subdued them, and then answered the door?

Are these things probable, no..........reasonable, yep. No LEO (myself included) wants to the that 1/1000 chance he walks into an ambush if we can help it.

Again, you as the caller/homeowner know a LOT more facts than I do when I show up. And I can't just take everyone's word for it. Back to the 10% vs 90%.

I can get a call to a home about a burglary, but when I get there, I have no idea who actually owns the home, made the call, etc, etc.


Here's the typical info on a call like this:

911 call reported burglary at XXXX address. Male caller states his name is XXXX and he is the property owner.

Sometimes a little more.......but many times..........there you go. You get there with just that info that a crime may have been committed and a possible name for the homeowner/caller.

 

[W54/XM-388]

One point of note regarding the police holding on to your weapons during an interaction is that at least as I understand it, in Texas if you have a carry licence and you are involved in some interaction where a police officer has formally requested your identification, they are allowed to hang onto your weapon for the duration of the interaction if they so request & you are required to comply. When it comes to carrying long guns and shotguns, it's not written in hard law, but case law basically says if they say hand it over while we talk, you should comply otherwise you may be open to some issues with failure to comply with a lawful order type stuff.

There is a difference probably on the street and on your property and depending on the officer etc & also on if you called them to your property or why they are showing up etc.

Last time I was involved in an interaction like that was at the property of a relative, and the officer that I was talking to requested that I go stick my carry piece in my car and then come back over to talk with him.

 

[Dthomas3523]

One point of note regarding the police holding on to your weapons during an interaction is that at least as I understand it, in Texas if you have a carry licence and you are involved in some interaction where a police officer has formally requested your identification, they are allowed to hang onto your weapon for the duration of the interaction if they so request & you are required to comply. When it comes to carrying long guns and shotguns, it's not written in hard law, but case law basically says if they say hand it over while we talk, you should comply otherwise you may be open to some issues with failure to comply with a lawful order type stuff.

There is a difference probably on the street and on your property and depending on the officer etc & also on if you called them to your property or why they are showing up etc.

Last time I was involved in an interaction like that was at the property of a relative, and the officer that I was talking to requested that I go stick my carry piece in my car and then come back over to talk with him.

Typically if its outside, and there's no other circumstance which make me feel like there is a problem, I politely ask them to keep their hands away from the weapon.

If I'm going into a confined environment, no weapons will be there, or I won't be going in without backup (unless its an emergency, then all bets are off, you have to go in).

 

[j-huskey]

Or, in your nightmare call. Homeowner fired shot through window at burglar. Gave us gun. Into evidence bag goes gun.
As we speak, homeowner and me inside, evidence tech walks up outside, to process window, homeowner freaks, thinking burglar is back (not likely with 4 marked units outside)..... and pulls second gun, tries to shoot evidence tech outside.

AND...... Homeowner, me, and two other officers contest possession of second pistol, to the tune of a couple of us got stitches.... Homeowner got a little dinged, but nobody got shot, tried to sue us over his little ding, and I never looked at my victim holding on to his gun the same again..... just sayin.

So, if I dealt with you and a gun after that, you either 1. Secured your gun in safe, 2. another room, or in the 3. Car trunk/4. truck toolbox, or 5. I secured it.

If you wanted to get panty wadded over it, tough shit. No apology ... As long as i was legally there, you did what I told you... or I left. Got complained on for leaving a couple of times. Figured out, some people were going to bitch no matter how right I did it. Those bitches ran about 5 to the hundred.
So, for those 5 who weren't going to like me after my visit, wasn't a whole lot I could do. I quit worrying about them, did the best I could and categorized those 5 as people to watch much more closely in the future.

And generally, in the future, I had problems with one or two of the 5, so I marked them off as the problem, considering the 95 still liked me and I made friends with at least one of the 5...

And that 5-95 pattern repeated several times in 37 years.

Just like some of the posters here recognize asshole officers, I recognize assholes civilians.... and a couple of those are good friends.

Real life.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I recognize assholes civilians.... and a couple of those are good friends.

Possibly the most quotable quote in the whole thread.
Excellent!

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I have no issue with an officer holding my CCW during a stop or interaction or asking me to store it someplace. I don't use the word GUN around officers I don't know. If stopped in vehicle or on bike it's hands on the wheel and inform that I have a permit and am armed. Then ask how they want to proceed. Using the word GUN during initial contact is not a good thing. It creates a Pavlovian response.
When they were showing the Sarniev (sp?) brother climbing out of the boat after the Boston bombing. I told my wife that if anyone had yelled gun that the tax payers would get off cheap. 300 rounds of 9mm vs legal expenses and lifetime incarceration. The thug stopped in his grandmothers backyard. Once the one officer said gun it was game on until lock back.

Or, in your nightmare call. Homeowner fired shot through window at burglar. Gave us gun. Into evidence bag goes gun.
As we speak, homeowner and me inside, evidence tech walks up outside, to process window, homeowner freaks, thinking burglar is back (not likely with 4 marked units outside)..... and pulls second gun, tries to shoot evidence tech outside.

AND...... Homeowner, me, and two other officers contest possession of second pistol, to the tune of a couple of us got stitches.... Homeowner got a little dinged, but nobody got shot, tried to sue us over his little ding, and I never looked at my victim holding on to his gun the same again..... just sayin.

So, if I dealt with you and a gun after that, you either 1. Secured your gun in safe, 2. another room, or in the 3. Car trunk/4. truck toolbox, or 5. I secured it.

If you wanted to get panty wadded over it, tough shit. No apology ... As long as i was legally there, you did what I told you... or I left. Got complained on for leaving a couple of times. Figured out, some people were going to bitch no matter how right I did it. Those bitches ran about 5 to the hundred.
So, for those 5 who weren't going to like me after my visit, wasn't a whole lot I could do. I quit worrying about them, did the best I could and categorized those 5 as people to watch much more closely in the future.

And generally, in the future, I had problems with one or two of the 5, so I marked them off as the problem, considering the 95 still liked me and I made friends with at least one of the 5...

And that 5-95 pattern repeated several times in 37 years.

Just like some of the posters here recognize asshole officers, I recognize assholes civilians.... and a couple of those are good friends.

Real life.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or, in your nightmare call. Homeowner fired shot through window at burglar. Gave us gun. Into evidence bag goes gun.
As we speak, homeowner and me inside, evidence tech walks up outside, to process window, homeowner freaks, thinking burglar is back (not likely with 4 marked units outside)..... and pulls second gun, tries to shoot evidence tech outside.

AND...... Homeowner, me, and two other officers contest possession of second pistol, to the tune of a couple of us got stitches.... Homeowner got a little dinged, but nobody got shot, tried to sue us over his little ding, and I never looked at my victim holding on to his gun the same again..... just sayin.

So, if I dealt with you and a gun after that, you either 1. Secured your gun in safe, 2. another room, or in the 3. Car trunk/4. truck toolbox, or 5. I secured it.

If you wanted to get panty wadded over it, tough shit. No apology ... As long as i was legally there, you did what I told you... or I left. Got complained on for leaving a couple of times. Figured out, some people were going to bitch no matter how right I did it. Those bitches ran about 5 to the hundred.
So, for those 5 who weren't going to like me after my visit, wasn't a whole lot I could do. I quit worrying about them, did the best I could and categorized those 5 as people to watch much more closely in the future.

And generally, in the future, I had problems with one or two of the 5, so I marked them off as the problem, considering the 95 still liked me and I made friends with at least one of the 5...

And that 5-95 pattern repeated several times in 37 years.

Just like some of the posters here recognize asshole officers, I recognize assholes civilians.... and a couple of those are good friends.

Real life.

Oh man........please tell me the above scenario actually happened (with no one seriously hurt hopefully).

Would love be in the office of the boss asking "......and then what happened" over and over, with that "you gotta be fucking kidding me" look in his face.

 

[j-huskey]

Oh man........please tell me the above scenario actually happened (with no one seriously hurt hopefully).

Would love be in the office of the boss asking "......and then what happened" over and over, with that "you gotta be fucking kidding me" look in his face.

DT,
Oh so true.......
Yes, the supervisor was there with me. Chief had one question after one officer got 6 stitches, and the second got 13, , " Why didn't you arrest the mf?"

"Ahhh, Chief, officer x hit Sgt y with a flash light (6 stitches) and sgt y hit officer z with a sap (13 stitches), and I hit citizen a with a beer bottle off the table, while officer z got the gun...." "too much shit going on to arrest him , SIR, somebody had to take the report while somebody took the wounded to the hospital." "And I had to get citizen a another beer to calm him and his family down while I cleaned up our mess.... didn't have time to arrest him, SIR" And he had three more guns..

Yes it's true. He was a Vietnam vet with ptsd. He tried to sue us, went nowhere, i probably answered 20 calls on him b4 it was over, put him in a couple of times, but, when he died, I was a pallbearer at his funeral... it was a different time for sure.

 

[j-huskey]

Some of the stuff said on here diesnt square at all with what i saw or see now. Kinda like the vet I mention above, we had a young minority kid killed in Iraq and Westborough Baptist came to visit. A quarter of our department then had done a tour. Things were tense to say the least. The minority hood was armed and pissed. Our guys were pissed.
Along came this biker group of old wore out white guys, three sets, vets, bandidos, and outlaws, and at the funeral, tgere was family , a line of hood, a line of police, and line of bikers. Westborough left real quick.
Nobody else had any hard words either. You saw minority hood, outlaw biker, and police smiling and mingling.
But by Friday night it was back to business as usual with a bullet hole in a patrol car. Real life.

 

[oneshot86]

great story

 

[j-huskey]

Did we catch the guy who shot the car? No, not for that. Did we know who he was, yes.
We had a country kitchen type restaurant then in town. Thugs ate there as well as police. Most citizens didn't have a clue they were eating next to a drug deal going down. It was almost funny.
But back to the car shooter. I'd piss him off no end by going in the restaurant , buy his meal b4 he could pay for it, and sit down at his table with my tray and eat with him and talk football. Made him madder than hell.
But on Friday night, me and MY swat team would kick in his door on a drug search warrant and take him to jail. I'd leave him with "see u Wednesday at lunch".
We had to quit doing lunch because we 1. busted the restaurant and 2. he got a life sentence under habitual offender, and chief frowned on taking the police car 90 miles to prison to eat with a felon... not that I would have anyway.
When his mom died, he couldn't get compassionate leave, and I went to that funeral.
This guy SHOULD hate me, but he doesn't.
When i say police aren't the enemy, I mean it. If u take the time to get to know them as a human, and the police is not a born asshole, it doesn't have to be so adversarial.
Real life.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Just like some of the posters here recognize asshole officers, I recognize assholes civilians.... and a couple of those are good friends.

Yea but, there are different levels, of asshole friends. LOL

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Did we catch the guy who shot the car? No, not for that. Did we know who he was, yes.
We had a country kitchen type restaurant then in town. Thugs ate there as well as police. Most citizens didn't have a clue they were eating next to a drug deal going down. It was almost funny.
But back to the car shooter. I'd piss him off no end by going in the restaurant , buy his meal b4 he could pay for it, and sit down at his table with my tray and eat with him and talk football. Made him madder than hell.
But on Friday night, me and MY swat team would kick in his door on a drug search warrant and take him to jail. I'd leave him with "see u Wednesday at lunch".
We had to quit doing lunch because we 1. busted the restaurant and 2. he got a life sentence under habitual offender, and chief frowned on taking the police car 90 miles to prison to eat with a felon... not that I would have anyway.
When his mom died, he couldn't get compassionate leave, and I went to that funeral.
This guy SHOULD hate me, but he doesn't.
When i say police aren't the enemy, I mean it. If u take the time to get to know them as a human, and the police is not a born asshole, it doesn't have to be so adversarial.
Real life.

J-Huskey, I truly wish the police officers up here in Canada were like you and what you describe down there. You and others....

Alas..... a different set of laws, therefore a different set of minds, mindsets, and training emphasis'es. (emphasi ???)

 

[j-huskey]

Sean,
people are people, respect is respect, giving a person respect and allowing him/her dignity is a people skill.
one that any free world police SHOULD practice.
Unfortunately some free world police choose to act like dictators and the results are suck.
I had a choice on how to act and had good mentors, and time let me know I made a lot of right choices. I made some bad ones too, and had the opportunity to clean some of them up. Seeing the good responses made me want to stay people oriented and I had a good career and it's allowed me to continue to mentor young officers.
Yes , I do see bad officers as described on the board, many do choose the wrong path, but, it doesn't have to be that way. We all can try to make it better, and should, but also know when to cut the poison out. Gonna keep trying until I die. Best I can do.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I ask the cops the same thing. They usually look at me as strange as I look at them.

Typically if its outside, and there's no other circumstance which make me feel like there is a problem, I politely ask them to keep their hands away from the weapon.

If I'm going into a confined environment, no weapons will be there, or I won't be going in without backup (unless its an emergency, then all bets are off, you have to go in).

 

[RyanScott]

Please explain why it was considered a seizure?

I don’t seize your ID when I am looking at it, just like I don’t seize a weapon if I temporarily remove it from a situation. The courts give LEOs very wide latitude if they can articulate the reason for removing a weapon.

If an officer is called for robbery, it would likely be considered reasonable to temporarily remove any weapons from the scene until the officer can sort out who is who. Again, you know that you are harmless, but the officer doesn’t.

You could definitely say that by having your ID or weapon that you are being detained. Depends on the situation.

Was your firearm returned once the officer was done with the scene? If so, it was likely not a seizure.

A seizure of a person. Also in my state if you hold their possessions they are also seized. Read Terry again, it’s mostly in there. If you aren’t free to leave (and now, with your property) you’ve been seized.

 

[Dthomas3523]

A seizure of a person. Also in my state if you hold their possessions they are also seized. Read Terry again, it’s mostly in there. If you aren’t free to leave (and now, with your property) you’ve been seized.

I’m very familiar with terry (see my above posts about being detained (seized) when someone takes your ID of belongings).

I apologize if there was confusion, I thought you may have thought he seized your weapon as in an asset seizure/forfeiture.

It would also depend on the situation as to whether or not it would be considered a detention(seizure) and if so, would it be a legal detention.

If you call in burglary at your house, I show up, I see a weapon and I say something along the lines of “Sir, for your safety and mine, if you want me to enter the property, I’m going to need you to let me put your weapon in my unit until I’m done with my investigation,” and you agree and/or hand me the weapon, no detention/seizure. A reasonable person would feel that they are willingly allowing me to hold onto the weapon and could ask for it back/me to leave at anytime.

If I just take it......probably a detention/seizure.

However, if I can legally (key word) articulate that for the purposes of my investigation into the reported burglary, I felt the need to detain everyone on scene until I verified their identities......and whilst doing so I felt that you may be armed (and since the nature of the call is a buglary, possibly dangerous), I performed a terry frisk and found a weapon. I secured the weapon for your safety and mine which may constitute a detention/seizure, but you were either A) already detained or B) are now detained because of the weapon possibly increasing my suspicion of your involvement with the burglary.

So, there’s a two part question here:

Did the officer’s actions constitute what a reasonable person would consider a seizure/detention and if so, was that detention reasonable?

That’s why I was asking why you felt it was a detention/seizure and my next question would have been why you felt it was not reasonable.

As you likely know, the courts give a LEO very broad discretion as to how they can articulate reasonable suspicion as to a detention/seizure......especially when responding to calls and going in fairly blind.