Rifle Scopes I just don't get it, Illumination

#51
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: asiparks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen non-illum shooters shoot much tighter groups than illum shooters, I have no trouble finding my mildot reticle in legal hunting hours, and have the antlers and tusks to show for it. I've seen too many illum shooters with a dead battery or corroded battery box for the 'better to have it and not need it' to give me a warm fuzzy.</div></div>

I'm new to all this, so I'm just trying to grasp what I think you're saying,.... So, two identically skilled shooters, identical rifles each with IOR 3-18 scopes, both with the same reticle, one the illuminated version, one the non illuminated model. You're saying that the shooter with the non illuminated scope will shoot tighter groups, because the illumination will cause the other shooters groups to open up. And if the shooter with the illuminated scope switches off his illumination, will his groups stay larger because of bad glowy scope juju ? Or will they now be the same as the shooter with the non illuminated model ? Because your assertion kind of sounds like bollocks.



</div></div>

LOL yeah I think your getting the gist of his argument
laugh.gif


So clearly my eyes are not nearly good enough to see the reticle in pictures posted above by Jon. Personally I need an illuminated reticle for low light conditions. No amount of training is going to make my eyes perform any better. At 59 this is something I learned to accept a long time ago.

I would however accept the challenge to see who, between the two of us, has the tightest groups.
 
#52
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I thought the scope's power was around 10 to 14X. Now when discussing 'speed' part of that is FOV to find the bad guy to begin with.

Your example, using a higher power to wash out the reticle and show just the face of a posed bad guy, isn't realistic.

Low power allows ALOT better observation under low light conditions and frankly you would be very foolish to limit yourself to 10X under the conditions we are talking about.

When my Loopy is 'pushed-in' to 3.5X so I can have a FOV to quickly find the bad guy,and better light transmission. The thicker outside arms of the reticle come in much tighter, forming an aperture, the mildots close in tight on each other thickening the inner stadia lines.

Makes a VERY good sight, unlike your high power example.

You have basically rigged the picture as if this was a daytime, civilian fixed and waiting for you posed target than a realistic tactical shot. I don't too many real deal LE types would elect to stay at 10X for a 40 yard target under ANY conditions, much less low light.

A good friend of mine had to take a 50 yard shot on a deranged civilian armed with a rifle who was trying to sneak-up on some deputies and even at 3.5 he felt he was looking down a tube and wished he could go even lower in power. And that was daytime.

So you will have to pardon me for not accepting your 10X low light 'example' as realistic.

Now for those who are sniffing bollocks, ummm are you limeys or just unable to cuss?
grin.gif


Sniff away all you want, but I have seen the tighter groups from non-illum too many times. What is the last place you are to focus before slipping the sear?

Your reticle.

While Jon may claim his illum dot doesnt interfere with target detection and ID, many other real deal LE types struggle to make just such an ID under stress and in very low light. It also makes seeing the reticle so easy that the shooter tends to look away from the proper last place of focus, the reticle, and lock in on the target. Pinwheel groups are the result.

But don't sniff, test it for yourself.

Or sniff for a bit and then go to the range, let your freak flag fly!
 
#54
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your example, using a higher power to wash out the reticle and show just the face of a posed bad guy, isn't realistic.

Low power allows ALOT better observation under low light conditions and frankly you would be very foolish to limit yourself to 10X under the conditions we are talking about.

....blah, blah, blah....So you will have to pardon me for not accepting your 10X low light 'example' as realistic. </div></div>

You couldn't miss the point any worse if you tried. Scratch that, it's pretty clear you <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> trying to do exactly that. But I'll play along for those interested with open minds.

You stated illumination interfering with target ID was the problem. For scopes that have this problem, especially FFP scopes, it is worse at higher powers. The target gets dimmer and the illumination gets brighter as the reticle grows. I was showing you the worst case scenario for the problem you described.

Any POS scope with a lousy illumination system can look OK on low power without washing out the target, it's the higher powers that are harder.

Secondly, when you're talking about difficult target ID problems, it may come as a shock to you that the most difficult test for this is not the scope's lowest power. When you need the best detail, even in low light conditions, whether you're recognizing a face or counting tines on a rack, you will have best results turning the scope up as high as you can before it goes too dark for your eye to make sense of the picture.

The larger your objective and better your glass the higher you can turn the scope and the more detail you will see. Just because "the view" looks "brighter" on lower powers doesn't mean you can actually see the target any better--almost always it's the other way around. You will see more detail on higher powers until you hit the max your eye can handle through a particular scope.

Put out a resolution chart and try it through your Leupold. There are virtually no conditions under which you will get the best resolution (and therefor target ID potential) at 3.5X.

All that said, as I did say above you would generally be on lower power at such a range (at least until you want to zoom in on something). But contrary to your contention, the reticle gets even smaller at lower powers so the situation without illumination is actually worse. And the smaller illuminated portion of the reticle poses an even smaller chance of washing out the target, preventing ID. I showed you the hardest first. But since you want, here's the same scope at 5X:

PICT0249a.JPG


While target ID isn't as good on the low power (as I explained above) you can still tell it's a bad guy pointing a gun at you and your reticle is nowhere to be found. If that was a real situation you would be thanking God for that little red dot and pretending you wouldn't is only being dishonest with yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but I have seen the tighter groups from non-illum too many times. What is the last place you are to focus before slipping the sear?</div></div>
What in the hell are you talking about? Again, with the group shooting with the illumination on. Who does that? What are you talking about? We aren't zeroing our ACOG's here. Any time you'd be shooting groups with a scope like the above you wouldn't have the illumination on.

Unless you're specifically trying to test your effectiveness at night with targets like the above. And in that case, if you think you could group tighter on the guy's chest taking a WAG with no illumination vs. placing the dot in the same place every time, again, you're fooling yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While Jon may claim his illum dot doesnt interfere with target detection and ID, many other real deal LE types struggle to make just such an ID under stress and in very low light. </div></div>
And how many of your LE buddies are using the above scope? My guess is none. How many are using Premier? My guess is none. How many are using S&B? My guess is none. How many....

Most unfortunately, they're statistically most likely to be using old Mark 4 SFP's which had a pretty lousy illumination system. "Problems" with scopes like that simply don't apply to scopes like those I mentioned. But you will never know that until you get some time behind one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But don't sniff, test it for yourself.</div></div>
I agree. You keep giving this great advice, but maybe you should try taking it for yourself. You've never used a scope like the above so you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
#56
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now for those who are sniffing bollocks, ummm are you limeys or just unable to cuss?

Sniff away all you want, but I have seen the tighter groups from non-illum too many times. What is the last place you are to focus before slipping the sear?</div></div>

proudly Limey, thankyou. And i'm glad that you were able to conclusively eliminate all other factors that might have been influencing these shooter's groups and narrow it down to lack of an illuminated reticule (as we like to call it in Limeyland). That is good science.

Tagged for more deep learnings......
 
#58
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you need to use one to see the benefit.

if you have a target against a back ground of the same color, ex brown deer, brown back ground, it can give you some extra contrast, it also helps your reticle stand out against black targets. </div></div> 'Sorta like this..

This creature was under a dark thicket when shot. Swarovski Illuminated dot helped on this hunt. .308win/155 VLD's

Africa031.jpg
001-4.jpg
 
#64
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

asi-
Rather than tag something on the internet to learn something, here is a novel concept-

go DO the scenerio and see for yourself, gub'na. Don't be a Scouser, get up off the couch and try it for yourself.

Now the elimination of other factors comes from watching the shooters do daytime drills then night fire. Not one african game shot, not highly posed pics, but at least 100 fine LE/MIL/NG/ pretty damn good civilian shooters.

After awhile you start to notice trends, which brings us to stang.

stang-

One person doing better than another is not the point. One scope doing better isn't the point, though at the risk of upsetting super sniper scope users- it is oft times described, by those who own a few scopes, as 'good for the price' so it isn't the scope I'd use for any demonstration of what a FFP scope can do in low light sans illum.

What is the point is you can take shooters a dozen at a time and have them shoot daylight groups at 100 yards and then have them shoot very low light groups and the trend emerges.

But if you want to get together and shoot I certainly am not averse to that.

Jon-
again you pose it up to try and make a point. You claim you can't see the bad guy with the naked eye- so how did you know he was there to bring your rifle on target?

Next while you think the SS is all that and a bag of chips I'd submit your particular one isn't the best choice for LE/ close contact with bad guys.

I really like all my 3.5-10x for this sort of thing. My blunt think stadia lines outside the mildot really block a target in. The mildot portion gives an excellent crosshair in the center.

In your example, if somehow I heard or lucked into seeing the bad guy, and could tell he isn't an undercover or deputy,(around here alot of deputies dress in civilian clothes and there is no standard sidearm) but lets say I am 125% this guy is the bad guy and needs to be put down.

My sight picture gets the job done.

But 40 yards is being silly. it isn't that difficult to see a man sized target 40 yards away even if the dot was on nova. Hell my red dot AK can do that!

What some of we were talking about was targets out past rock throwing range. Guy who train to hit a head peeking around a tree, building, holding a hostage out around 100 yards and half man targets out to 300.

Perhaps you can pose up some pics like that?
 
#65
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I believe it is better to have and not need than to need and not have. That being said, I run a Trijicon Accupoint 5-20 and it has a green center dot. That dot is a nice thing to have and if I want it, its there if not, I rotate a shroud and the dot is gone.
 
#66
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I rarely use mine (meaning take a shot with it on) but I do turn it on the first and last minutes of shooting hours. The few times I have shot with it on have resulted in animals I would not have taken without illumination. That makes it worth it to me. Be it meat or trophy I have found it very nice to have available.
 
#67
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Screw it, I bow to your superior intellect, knowledge, eyesight, shooting abilty and whatever attributes you are trying to prove notquiteright.

We mere mortals suck in comparison to your greatness and never could hope to reach your level.

I will now trash every scope that I own with illumination thatks to the enlightnment (pun intended) you have shown me.

So thank you for showing me the way.
 
#68
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I bought a scope with illumination because I figured that it couldn't hurt. This thread got me to thinking about it so I decided to check it out. I decided to dry fire at my neighbors ADT sign about 75 yards from my house (from inside my house) and it made all of the difference in the world. Everyone in my neighborhood has a lamp post in the front yard so even at night the light is reasonable. While I could see the reticle on the white and blue sign I could feel my eyes relax when I turned on the illumination. I stopped straining to see the reticle and instead I could focus on the target. It helped at all power levels. I find it hard to believe that it is a bad idea to have a feature that makes your life easier. There is only so much time to enjoy your sport. Why not make the most of it even when the conditions aren't great.
 
#70
Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

NQR-since you gel the need to try to win a debate by looking down your snout at folks, let me remind you that your shooting parameters are not everyone's. Allow me to cite a time or two where the proper application of an illuminated reticle made a difference to me:

5 shots, 60 seconds at night on steel with cyalumes to indicate them. Sometimes it gives me an advantage to use holdovers when time is short, so that's what I like to do. My illum helped there.

960 us on a 2/3 IPSC on a really hazy day and the target was on the shaded slope and the reticle was very tough to see. I only had 7mil avail by dialing due to a poor mounting setup so I held the rest and got a first round hit when the other guys I was with didn't get a shot.
 
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