Yeah but build to print is an industry term for a type of contracting practice.
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Ingenuity Precision trickler
- Thread starter NiteQwill
- Start date
Knowing Paul's need for absolute perfection, I don't think there is anyone BUT Paul that can give him what he wants/needs.
While this may not be ideal for customers and potential customers I do expect the powder system will be everything I have come to appreciate with the IP Trickler. He told me about three weeks ago of the machine delays and expected to be shipping units early November. I have a FX120i at the ready!
There's literally tens of thousands of us that can far exceed anything he could possibly need in this mechanism.
I understand wanting to maintain complete control of your product, but if you can't get it into the wild, you don't have much of a product.
To pretend someone is the only one capable of making something so simple highlights how ignorant to manufacturing most non-producers are.
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Possibly, but for a person who is driven to perfection, it is often easier to move forward when you control the supply chain and KNOW that everything is per spec. Just part of being a perfectionist, can drive others to a nervous breakdown but it allows them to move forward. Normally those outside the building don't know it is happening
Perfectionist designers should learn about and embrace tolerances. It'll make their lives easier and save them money. Some dimensions aren't critical enough to require "perfection" in order to have proper function.
Just to have every non-producer on a gun forum use the word in the wrong context for the way things fit together.
Tens of thousands is probably a bit high but even if there are, how many can actually take on a low volume part and produce to spec? For many they can’t even be bothered, some say they will look at it and never give a quote, some will but the price is high, and others will give a decent price but the samples are shit and take a long time to get. This process has caused delays and much frustration for Paul. And I never pretended Paul was the only one capable but you somehow took offense. While this product does appear to be simple there are some fairly tight tolerances. The discs for example should be fairly simple yet if the sheets they are cut from aren’t perfectly flat then they don’t work. The laser that cuts them costs more than some peoples homes and is primarily used for medical equipment. Paul even stopped having the discs laser engraved because that even caused just enough distortion to be an issue.
It’s easy to say there are plenty of people capable but in practice it’s not that easy. I have seen a lot of what Paul has gone through with getting parts made and it’s incredibly frustrating.
Not sure Paul reads this, but Thank You! I really appreciate his attention to detail and dedication to the delivery of a spectacular product. I recognize I will be waiting for a while ( June order).
Boy, with this much destruction of good will, God help him if his system needs shims or a JThor tip, people will lose their fucking minds
I mean I’m prepared to put a cardboard box around the mfker if the draft shield is wonky.
At this point, if I were Paul I would require everyone's SH username to complete their order. And all the cunty, entitled people woofing big shit, I would cancel their order. But Paul's probably a better business man and nicer person than me so you guys are in luck.
On the subject of “perfectionism”….this is a high end, expensive, powder drop system for…yeah, perfectionist reloaders. Anything short of stellar performance, fit, and finish would be met derision by many in this thread who are complaining about delays.
He ain’t trying to make a MatchMaster…or even an AT V4 (and don’t even whisper Super Trickler). See what I’m saying.
He ain’t trying to make a MatchMaster…or even an AT V4 (and don’t even whisper Super Trickler). See what I’m saying.
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I know this will really make your day. I agree 100% that Paul is out to outdo every other powder metering system available.
It is a dangerous notion that he has something that will satisfy us pefectionists!
As long as the IP trickler works as well or better than the current iteration I don't foresee an issue. The powder dropper just has to drop the bulk charge so as long as it's fairly consistent the trickler is what is ultimately giving the desired final accuracy.
I was partly joking
There is always a risk, though, that when the average Joe Bumblefucks get their paws on it en masse, any small flaw or idiosyncrasy will be revealed and widely complained about
So far it appears only fanboys have tested it
And people are expecting perfection
There is always a risk, though, that when the average Joe Bumblefucks get their paws on it en masse, any small flaw or idiosyncrasy will be revealed and widely complained about
So far it appears only fanboys have tested it
And people are expecting perfection
This is the issue with a lot of small manufacturers/inventors. Coming up with a product is one thing, the whole process of preparing and bringing it to market is a whole lot more difficult. The IP trickler outdoes anything I've seen on the market for quality of design and particularly the manufacture. Getting boxes on the shelves ready to ship, particularly while self funding the development and manufacturing is a substantial risk. I'm impressed seeing a product that is coming to market without taking pre-payments and then using that to cover the risk. If it takes longer, then it takes longer, no-one is out of pocket.
I've designed and made a few products which work really well but would never push them out into the market because someone would fuck it up or have to wait too long and I'd be the bad guy. I have one of the IP tricklers set up with my V3 thrower and it's a massive improvement. Occasionally a kernel will get jammed and I have to give the wheel a flick backwards to clear it. Not a problem for me but in today's impractical, instant gratification world, someone would find that impossible to deal with and have to start whining about it on some forum or other. I hope that doesn't end up being the case here, we need innovation and people willing to have a go or we will all be stuck with gear that's made in China by some big company that is more interested in the profits than the product.
Sounds like either a design flaw that should have been corrected long ago or some serious operator error when it comes to running the laser engraver if you're warping the disks that badly just by engraving them.
Similar disk-type trickler designs work just fine even using 3D printed discs and cups that are, comparatively speaking, roughly equivalent in accuracy in terms of the exterior radius/slot dimensions but generally much less flat across the bottom of the disk than a metal disk that's been laser cut out of flat metal sheet stock material. In fact, warping in the horizontal plane is one of the main issues that thin 3D printed parts (such as this kind of disk) face.
Hint: the intended orientation of the kernels and the balance of slot shape vs disk clearance makes a big difference in how tolerant the disk + cup combo are to both the dimensional accuracy of the disk and how flat the disk is/isn't. If your disk isn't working because you used a laser engraver it means you've chosen a combination of those two factors that is far more sensitive to variance than it needs to be.
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I disagree, you have no idea how tight the tolerances need to be. And as you have never actually seen one and how the parts interact to cal it a design flaw is stupid. You may not understand the design and you may have seen other designs that do it differently but lacking any insight you cannot form a valid basis of comparison. If you have ever designed a complex system of parts you would understand that slapping together a group of loose parts does not generally result in a precision solution.
I literally made a disk trickler myself, the only people making wild claims about tolerances are folks who have not made the disks themselves before. It's quite funny though that you like to make wild claims about, "You may not understand the design" to a guy who quite literally posted video proof he understands the design just fine with a successful replication of the primary design concept.
Anybody pretending that the tolerances are so tight that laser engraving would affect it is talking straight out of their ass, or if that's true then the design is shit and in need of serious rework because it does not need to be that sensitive.
Cool when I see yours making a play for this space, then I will take it back. We are not taking about a chargemaster here. Your design may work, Paul's also will be spectacular. Would I buy yours for a buck maybe, but I will stick with someone with a proven track record. Yes it is proven as the trickler happens to be the standard in the sport!
Probably more of an issue of getting the laser done properly. My Smith buddy has a laser so I'm familiar with it. It can be very difficult to get some of these guys to test enough and make sure they aren't going to deep and creating too much heat with the laser. There's a lot od heat created doing it.
You can have a series of loose fitting parts that are very tightly toleranced and require very high precision to create.
true, each part is precisely made but the system is a loose assembly. This is wonderful for some uses, but, and there is always a but, it will not be successful in handling a single kernel or rod of powder and moving it to the end. The dimensions are too small and variations too large. This would result in too many over-weight charges and or move too slow to satisfy the intended audience. Individual parts held to high precision are one thing, understanding how the stack-up of the gaps and tolerances affects the attainment of the desired goal is another.
When Tyler at MKM was still in the steel target business (got too costly to produce and ship them, as I understand), he had plates that had a grid laser engraved on it so you could measure group size. Every one of those I had cracked along those laser etched lines. An aspirin tablet is scored more than that, but it still weakened the targets right there and they came apart like in little rectangles like a graham cracker after a while. Which I guess he should have known, that's the reason he had them cut with water jet. Live and learn.
It is clear that you lack an understanding of both of these things.
You can have parts that fit together smoothly and easily by hand, "loose" as you might describe it, which convey only a single kernel of powder at a time. So long as the stacked tolerances for the disk and cup allows allow one kernel to fit into a slot, but never allow two kernels to a slot or kernels between the disk and cup outside of the slots (at least not by the time you go to drop the individual kernels), you will not inherently affect precision by having a tighter or looser fitment between disk and cup.
All the slot has to do is gather a single kernel and push it around the edge to the drop point. This task can be accomplished by a slot with more depth to encompass the entire kernel alongside a disk that fits tightly to the edge of the cup, and that task can also be accomplished by a slot with less depth (encompassing only little more than half the cross-section of the kernel) alongside looser fitment between the disk and cup.
Both general design methods accomplish the goal of conveying one single kernel at a time to the drop point, but the required tolerances for disk, slot, and cup are different depending on which route you choose to take. This is the balance between slot shape and disk clearance I talked about in my initial comment, which makes a large difference in how sensitive the design is to variations between individual parts.
As for the laser engraving, like @BuildingConceptsllc said your main enemy there is the heat. It can be counterintuitive, but lower power, higher speed, and multiple passes will often produce a better outcome because it puts less heat into the material you're engraving per pass and gives it more time to dissipate before the next pass. You see the same issue with different outcomes using a laser cutter/engraver on wood panels - if you try to do too much work to the part in a single pass you'll end up either seriously charring the wood or just straight up setting it on fire (not fun).
When your design hits the market we will let the market decide if it is a better solution. also if yours is so wonderful, why are you even here? obviously either you just want to hear yourself jabber or you really don't even believe your own drivel. Either way, don't go away mad, just go away!
