...Interesting Post on 224V Accuracy Issues

[Precision Underground]

True enough unfortunately. My Craddock Precision barrel with matching bolt and threaded was over $500. It shoots lights out, but then I already knew that Craddock had the chamber and throat worked out.

Yea I lucked out and grabbed an X-Caliber when they did the 50% off sale. X-Caliber doesn't have the rep that craddock has but man that thing has been a laser since I figured out the ELD tip breakage.

FWIW I put a ballistic advantage barrel on our 6.5 build because as I was gathering parts I came across the premium series on closeout for like $175 and thought, why not give it a shot at that price.... It's a hammer as well. It was literally shooting 1/2 moa on the first day with random break in loads. I think with that tier of barrels it can be a bit of a gamble though.

 

[Back Spin]

I’ve had random factory 88 ELD tips break off upon chambering. Mostly when my bolt is dirty/dry. Surprisingly ones I have found with broken tips when unloading have gone into the same POA as the other rounds (at 100 yards) when rechambered and fired. So in my experience the broken tip didn’t seem to affect short range accuracy.

I’ve loaded and unloaded several rounds in a row to try and replicate the issue and haven’t had any feeding issues or excessively deformed tips (even when putting forward or rear pressure on the magazine). So it seems to be a random occurrence with my upper. ??‍

Although I had a weird round recently (factory 88 ELD) that went 8” low left at 100 yards, and seemed to enter the paper target at an angle. I wonder if anyone else has experienced that kind of flyer with factory Hornady.

 

[Precision Underground]

I’ve had random factory 88 ELD tips break off upon chambering. Mostly when my bolt is dirty/dry. Surprisingly ones I have found with broken tips when unloading have gone into the same POA as the other rounds (at 100 yards) when rechambered and fired. So in my experience the broken tip didn’t seem to affect short range accuracy.

I’ve loaded and unloaded several rounds in a row to try and replicate the issue and haven’t had any feeding issues or excessively deformed tips (even when putting forward or rear pressure on the magazine). So it seems to be a random occurrence with my upper. ??‍

Although I had a weird round recently (factory 88 ELD) that went 8” low left at 100 yards, and seemed to enter the paper target at an angle. I wonder if anyone else has experienced that kind of flyer with factory Hornady.

I can just about guarantee random broken tips will affect accuracy. I would guess you don’t have enough bolt speed to replicate it when manually cycling. Try single feeding from the side and see what happens.

If you have an adjustable gas block/key turn it way down so it will barely cycle the next round and see if anything changes.

Going in at an angle would suggest key holing and lack of stability which is possible with a 1/7 and low velocity. Try some different ammo and see what happens.

 

[Back Spin]

Interesting enough, some of the broken tips have come from simply dropping the bolt on an inserted mag. I only knew because the bolt wouldn’t fully go into battery due to the plastic tip falling into the barrel extension

I’ll try the single feed thing. Just curious what does single feeding supposed to test.

I have a 20” 1/7, but I don’t think it’s a stability issue. That random crazy flyer was the only one I can remember out of 3000+ rounds (maybe it was caused by a broken tip!). I shot out to 200 yesterday in fairly cold temps and didn’t see any evidence of keyholing and the group was .9 MOA.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Could cause a pretty sweet kaboom if a tip dislodged and was pushed up into the bore... just sayin.

As someone who’s had an AR blow up in their face, it’s not a fun experience.

 

[Precision Underground]

Interesting enough, some of the broken tips have come from simply dropping the bolt on an inserted mag. I only knew because the bolt wouldn’t fully go into battery due to the plastic tip falling into the barrel extension

I’ll try the single feed thing. Just curious what does single feeding supposed to test.

I have a 20” 1/7, but I don’t think it’s a stability issue. That random crazy flyer was the only one I can remember out of 3000+ rounds (maybe it was caused by a broken tip!). I shot out to 200 yesterday in fairly cold temps and didn’t see any evidence of keyholing and the group was .9 MOA.

I was thinking you were the guy that resurrected the thread and was having issues. But either way, single feeding will eliminate anything that is happening to the bullet/case during cycling. If yours is shooting ELDs good with random bad flyers it's likely broken tips like ours was. Switched to 90SMKs and it has been hammering ever since.

 

[rustyinbend]

You bought a $400 upper with a barrel that are usually decent for the $$ (but not always) and are one of the companies that got the throat length wrong... $400 for a complete upper with a "match grade" barrel should be a sign that you're getting crap for parts quality and crap for build quality, that's literally the bottom of the bargain bin stuff.

Not trying to be a dick, but your first mistake was expecting exceptional accuracy out of complete upper that costs less than most of the high quality AR barrels. Your second mistake was not researching the parts before purchasing and seeing that there was reamer/throat issues and BA was one of the manufacturers running the incorrect reamer.

Live and learn. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I've got the 22" White Oak upper on the way, and I'm going to try the lower weight ammo in the Pro2A-BA upper/barrel to see if that helps. (The Berger calculator says it will.) If that doesn't help, the Pro2A is headed back to the factory, or will be "donated" to my son who is poor, and thrilled to have something to launch lead down-range.

 

[rustyinbend]

UPDATE: Long story short ... bought the 22" 6.5-twist upper from WOA ... gets here Tuesday. In the meantime, took the Pro2A 18" 7-twist upper to lighter bullets (75-gr) and went from 3MOA with fliers, to 1MOA-ish and no fliers. Next time out, I'll try some 65-gr bullets and see if it does even better. Thanks for the sage wisdom ... the "lighter bullets for higher twist" advice appears to have been spot-on. When I get the WOA upper broken in and zero'd ... I'll try all available bullet weights and see what likes the 6.5 twist the best.

 

[Lowlight]

how come my 7 twist 22" JP shoots them all into one hole heavy or light

I alternate between 75 and 88 all the time no difference ?
weird

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The 7T LMT I had shot the 95gr SMK load that was developed for another barrel into little bitty groups at 100 and would stack rounds on top of each other on a 6” plate at 600. Doing under 2500fps muzzle velocity too. Stable and accurate.

 

[rustyinbend]

OK ... here's the update. Got my 22" 6.5-twist .224 Valkyrie upper from White Oak Armament ... and it's shooting half-MOA right out of the box with 88gr Hornady ELD Match ammo. That ammo was consistently shooting 3+ MOA from my 18" 7-twist Pro2A upper. Switched the 18" Pro2A 7-twist upper to lighter rounds (75gr Hornady Black) and the 3+ accuracy went to pretty much 1 MOA. (WOA 1/2-MOA group attached below.)

Lessons-Learned:

1. Heavier .224 bullets need smaller twist rates ... 6.5 seems optimal.
2. Lighter .224 bullets need larger twist rates.
3. Longer barrels are better than shorter barrels when group size is the priority.
4. White Oak Armament makes screaming cool uppers.
5. In this game ... spend less - expect less.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Lowlight]

7 twist works fine

bad uppers or poor builds is not a twist rate issue

you can't have some see great success and others not then blame the twist rate

 

[rustyinbend]

My only debate point there is that the only difference between 3+ MOA and 1 MOA on the Pro2A upper ... was the change to lighter ammunition (88 vs 75). Everything else was identical. That ... and the lower twist rate shot way better with the heavier ammo (88) ... was enough to convince me that twist rate played a part in accuracy, at least for these two uppers. That's all I was trying to convey in this admittedly very limited test. As always, others will experience different results, and YMMV ...

 

[mensajd]

Longer barrels aren’t necessarily more precise. To the contrary, given two different length barrels of the same contour, the shorter barrel will be stiffer which is conducive to precision. 18” bull barrel woa upper below. Group on the left is at 100yds; group on the right is at 200yds.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

My only debate point there is that the only difference between 3+ MOA and 1 MOA on the Pro2A upper ... was the change to lighter ammunition (88 vs 75). Everything else was identical. That ... and the lower twist rate shot way better with the heavier ammo (88) ... was enough to convince me that twist rate played a part in accuracy, at least for these two uppers. That's all I was trying to convey in this admittedly very limited test. As always, others will experience different results, and YMMV ...

So a whopping two samples of factory ammo, that’s what you base your theory that 7 twist isn’t enough for 88’s off of?

It couldn’t just possible be that the barrel just didn’t like the load...

 

[Triple D]

My only debate point there is that the only difference between 3+ MOA and 1 MOA on the Pro2A upper ... was the change to lighter ammunition (88 vs 75). Everything else was identical. That ... and the lower twist rate shot way better with the heavier ammo (88) ... was enough to convince me that twist rate played a part in accuracy, at least for these two uppers. That's all I was trying to convey in this admittedly very limited test. As always, others will experience different results, and YMMV ...

It was likely just a difference in chamber and bullets being sensitive to seating depth. Unless you were seeing oblong impacts in paper, it likely wasn’t due to twist rate.

My 22” WOA 1:6.5 twist shoots the FGMM 90’s into sub .8moa groups consistently. My 24” RA 1:7.5 twist will put 2-3 in a cluster, but will have 1-2 shots further away with oblong holes. To me, that shows the 90’s aren’t fully stabile at my DA with the 7.5 twist.

 

[rustyinbend]

Apologies gentlemen. I should have said "For me, in my personal experiences, longer barrels tend to deliver tighter groups when all other things are generally equal." That's been the case for me in all situations where I have the same caliber in multiple rifles with different barrel lengths (.224 Valkyrie, 5.56/223, 300-BLK, and 6.5 Creedmoor). Maybe it's coincidence, or other factors, but in these rifles, the longer barrel form-factor always shoots tighter groups (for me) (with my crappy eyesight) (at my local range) (with the same ammo) (in similar atmospheric conditions) (with similar scopes) (and not accounting for my snarky attitude when I get unexpected results).

Extending my "learnings" as advice to others, is probably unwise ... especially so when conversing online.

Please forgive me.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

1. Heavier .224 bullets need smaller twist rates ... 6.5 seems optimal.
2. Lighter .224 bullets need larger twist rates.
3. Longer barrels are better than shorter barrels when group size is the priority.

No. Your comparing a WOA to a Bear Creek barrel and blaming all of the wrong things for the accuracy discrepancy.

 

[rustyinbend]

I want to better understand your perspective. Are you saying the barrel "brand" has more to do with the group discrepancy, than (a) barrel length, (b) bullet weight, and (c) twist rate? I'm not arguing with that, just trying to rationalize if the answer could be (d) all of the above, including "brand".

 

[padom]

My only debate point there is that the only difference between 3+ MOA and 1 MOA on the Pro2A upper ... was the change to lighter ammunition (88 vs 75). Everything else was identical. That ... and the lower twist rate shot way better with the heavier ammo (88) ... was enough to convince me that twist rate played a part in accuracy, at least for these two uppers. That's all I was trying to convey in this admittedly very limited test. As always, others will experience different results, and YMMV ...

No the only difference was not just the twist rate. The biggest difference was the barrel quality.

See my 224V review thread. I'm shooting tiny little groups with the 4 different 224V barrels I've tested heavily and they are ALL 7 twist. Keystone button, Kreiger, 2 Bartleins.

Also, see my Rainer Ultramatch 224V 7.5twist AR review thread. Hammered with 88's as well..

 

[padom]

I want to better understand your perspective. Are you saying the barrel "brand" has more to do with the group discrepancy, than (a) barrel length, (b) bullet weight, and (c) twist rate? I'm not arguing with that, just trying to rationalize if the answer could be (d) all of the above, including "brand".

Yes, that's exactly what's being said.

 

[rustyinbend]

Yes, that's exactly what's being said.

Thanks ... makes perfect sense that "all" factors were in play. My only remaining question is about the Pro2A 18" 7-twist barrel.

Why ... in the exact same rifle where the only thing that changes was the weight of the bullet ... wouldn't "Twist Rate" be a primary factor? It's not a barrel quality thing at that point, and could "only" be either the twist rate, or the quality of the ammunition (but both 88 and 75 were Hornady quality ammo).

88gr shot big groups.
75gr shot little groups.

Isn't that a "twist rate" issue when it happens on the same barrel?

Thanks ... just trying to learn.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Thanks ... makes perfect sense that "all" factors were in play. My only remaining question is about the Pro2A 18" 7-twist barrel.

Why ... in the exact same rifle where the only thing that changes was the weight of the bullet ... wouldn't "Twist Rate" be a primary factor? It's not a barrel quality thing at that point, and could "only" be either the twist rate, or the quality of the ammunition (but both 88 and 75 were Hornady quality ammo).

88gr shot big groups.
75gr shot little groups.

Isn't that a "twist rate" issue when it happens on the same barrel?

Thanks ... just trying to learn.

Because not every barrel likes the same ammo. You tried some factory ammo and it didn’t like it, that’s all there is to it. Now if you loaded this ammo with a full load development, tried numerous powders and seating depths, and verified the lot of bullets were good and were still getting huge groups then your argument may have some merit, but that’s not the case.

You simply tested one type of ammo in two uppers and the one just happened to not like it while the other did. Merely a coincidence, nothing else. It has jack shit to do with the twist rate, that I can promise you.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I want to better understand your perspective. Are you saying the barrel "brand" has more to do with the group discrepancy, than (a) barrel length, (b) bullet weight, and (c) twist rate? I'm not arguing with that, just trying to rationalize if the answer could be (d) all of the above, including "brand".

Quality, not necessarily brand name. The half inch of twist rate is a pretty minor factor when you're comparing an $80 barrel to a $250+ barrel.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You also never answered whether or not you actually measured the twist rate to confirm it’s a true 1:7”. Twist rates vary, and manufactures have marked shit wrong before. If it’s an 8, or closer to 8 then that could easily explain your issue

 

[padom]

Thanks ... makes perfect sense that "all" factors were in play. My only remaining question is about the Pro2A 18" 7-twist barrel.

Why ... in the exact same rifle where the only thing that changes was the weight of the bullet ... wouldn't "Twist Rate" be a primary factor? It's not a barrel quality thing at that point, and could "only" be either the twist rate, or the quality of the ammunition (but both 88 and 75 were Hornady quality ammo).

88gr shot big groups.
75gr shot little groups.

Isn't that a "twist rate" issue when it happens on the same barrel?

Thanks ... just trying to learn.

Some barrels prefer certain bullets over others. This is consistent with all calibers and barrels. That barrel obviously doesnt like 88 eld. What chamber reamer was that barrel cut with? One of the original problematic reamers that had a long freebore and shot the heavies terribly but the lighter bullets well?

 

[Lowlight]

What you are doing is comparing the gas mileage of two different cars, one is white the other blue and saying the variation in mi!eage is due to the color

as noted, the past issues with the 224V was falsely attributed to the twist rate when in reality it was the reamer and chamber

here you are repeating this debunked issue without considering the other factors

as well, the barrels, you have two different brands of barrel where we know quality does not always translate. different brands have different levels of quality, just because they appear to be cut the same, we know that is not how it works.

you could easily handload the 88gr bullets changing the seating depth and they will magically start shooting better, or you may discover the reamer used is the problem and they won't work because of it. we'll assume you have no idea which reamer is being used.

one load working and another not is not a default twist rate problem.

 

[MontanaMan]

I want to better understand your perspective. Are you saying the barrel "brand" has more to do with the group discrepancy, than (a) barrel length, (b) bullet weight, and (c) twist rate?

I have trouble believing you could seriously even ask that question/make that comment here.

Do you really have no inkling that an $80 barrel & a $400 barrel are not going to perform to the same level...................not that miracles can't still happen, just not likely in this case.

MM

 

[lennyo3034]

I’m 0 for 2 on Valkyrie barrels. JP and Rainier. Both companies had excellent CS and took them back. Both said they saw more returns on Valkyrie barrels than any other.

No idea what the cause was but I’m pretty confident in my ability to build and shoot ARs.

90 SMK, 88 ELDm, 80 ELDm, 80 berger. None would shoot better than 3 moa.

Clearly some people have successfully gotten it to shoot, but it’s going to take a lot for me to try again.

 

[padom]

I’m 0 for 2 on Valkyrie barrels. JP and Rainier. Both companies had excellent CS and took them back. Both said they saw more returns on Valkyrie barrels than any other.

No idea what the cause was but I’m pretty confident in my ability to build and shoot ARs.

90 SMK, 88 ELDm, 80 ELDm, 80 berger. None would shoot better than 3 moa.

Clearly some people have successfully gotten it to shoot, but it’s going to take a lot for me to try again.

That's interesting. My Ultramatch shot really really good. Only AR 224V barrel I tested. Craddock Bartlein would be my last stop before giving up. I had that issue with 300blk. 3rd time was a charm..

 

[Lowlight]

You almost have to wonder if the bigger cartridge is exploiting people' s fundamental weakness in their shooting ability,

Unless the barrels were cut with the wrong reamer originally, they were the old ones prior to the change?

It seems weird all these, 3 MOA barrels with a cartridge I find to shoot really well.

Hell, even the cheap-ass 75gr American Eagle shoots great in my rifles, there has been no issue using any factory ammo, and when I shot Brian Whalen's handloads they were not special and worked great.

Odd,

 

[rustyinbend]

I have trouble believing you could seriously even ask that question/make that comment here.

Do you really have no inkling that an $80 barrel & a $400 barrel are not going to perform to the same level...................not that miracles can't still happen, just not likely in this case.

MM

Not trying (consciously) to sound stupid. Just trying to figure out if "brand" ... like the difference between those two barrels ... will have a greater difference than the combination of multiple other entering arguments. Asked differently, are there any $100 barrels, that with the right combination of skill, scope, ammo, twist, length, etc. ... will shoot sub-MOA. It sounds like your answer may be "probably not - spend more".

I'm still learning, so thanks for the guidance. I admittedly have more high-end rifles and scopes than my experience probably justifies. That said, I consistently shoot sub-MOA with several of them, and made a mile-shot with my 300-WM this summer. This .224-Valkyrie is my first "build" (non-assembled-new) ... hence the stupid questions.

Just trying to catch up quickly. I fully realize that lessons learned on this forum ... usually come with public bruises.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

 

[lash]

You almost have to wonder if the bigger cartridge is exploiting people' s fundamental weakness in their shooting ability,

Unless the barrels were cut with the wrong reamer originally, they were the old ones prior to the change?

It seems weird all these, 3 MOA barrels with a cartridge I find to shoot really well.

Hell, even the cheap-ass 75gr American Eagle shoots great in my rifles, there has been no issue using any factory ammo, and when I shot Brian Whalen's handloads they were not special and worked great.

Odd,

I find this curious too. I bought a Rock Creek from Craddock and had nothing but luck with mine. It liked even the federal superformance 90g loads. After reading about your good experience with the 75s, I bought a case of those to try and found those to work as well.

Considering that this was my first self-assembled AR, I was almost surprised how well it shoots, though I did use premium components. More than a few that have shot mine have in turn purchased a fun AR in .224V.

Sorry to hear about those that are having trouble.

 

[padom]

You almost have to wonder if the bigger cartridge is exploiting people' s fundamental weakness in their shooting ability,

Unless the barrels were cut with the wrong reamer originally, they were the old ones prior to the change?

It seems weird all these, 3 MOA barrels with a cartridge I find to shoot really well.

Hell, even the cheap-ass 75gr American Eagle shoots great in my rifles, there has been no issue using any factory ammo, and when I shot Brian Whalen's handloads they were not special and worked great.

Odd,

I strictly handload, but some Hide members sent me the 75 American Eagle and the Hornady 88 ELD to test when I did the 224V review last year. The 75gr AE shot consistently 0.75moa and the 88 ELD shot 0.66moa for me. I also have her zero issues getting 224V to shoot. That's in an AR and bolt gun.

 

[lash]

Not trying (consciously) to sound stupid. Just trying to figure out if "brand" ... like the difference between those two barrels ... will have a greater difference than the combination of multiple other entering arguments. Asked differently, are there any $100 barrels, that with the right combination of skill, scope, ammo, twist, length, etc. ... will shoot sub-MOA. It sounds like your answer may be "probably not - spend more".

I'm still learning, so thanks for the guidance. I admittedly have more high-end rifles and scopes than my experience probably justifies. That said, I consistently shoot sub-MOA with several of them, and made a mile-shot with my 300-WM this summer. This .224-Valkyrie is my first "build" (non-assembled-new) ... hence the stupid questions.

Just trying to catch up quickly. I fully realize that lessons learned on this forum ... usually come with public bruises.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

Simply put, paying for a high quality barrel takes much more of the crap shoot out of the equation. My 22” barrel, threaded, with +2 gas tube and matching bolt was at $500 from Craddock Precision. It was most certainly money well spent in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone is saying that you can’t get a $100 barrel that shoots well, but your chances of getting one that does so is extremely limited. It then becomes luck of the draw with highest likelihood that you’ll get another 3 moa plinker.

Just buy quality and you’ll have a much better chance to get an actual precision barrel. It’s really that simple. FWIW, this also applies to most other things in life. I subscribe to this even though I have limited funds available. There’s a reason that people say, “Buy once, cry once.”

 

[rustyinbend]

Simply put, paying for a high quality barrel takes much more of the crap shoot out of the equation. My 22” barrel, threaded, with +2 gas tube and matching bolt was at $500 from Craddock Precision. It was most certainly money well spent in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone is saying that you can’t get a $100 barrel that shoots well, but your chances of getting one that does so is extremely limited. It then becomes luck of the draw with highest likelihood that you’ll get another 3 moa plinker.

Just buy quality and you’ll have a much better chance to get an actual precision barrel. It’s really that simple. FWIW, this also applies to most other things in life. I subscribe to this even though I have limited funds available. There’s a reason that people say, “Buy once, cry once.”

Thanks ... great (and helpful) perspective.

 

[lennyo3034]

You almost have to wonder if the bigger cartridge is exploiting people' s fundamental weakness in their shooting ability,

Unless the barrels were cut with the wrong reamer originally, they were the old ones prior to the change?

It seems weird all these, 3 MOA barrels with a cartridge I find to shoot really well.

Hell, even the cheap-ass 75gr American Eagle shoots great in my rifles, there has been no issue using any factory ammo, and when I shot Brian Whalen's handloads they were not special and worked great.

Odd,

I suppose that’s possible, but I’ve shot gas guns pretty extensively and do fine with a large frame:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/unlimited-budget-builds.6963573/

The rifle the Valkyrie was on is a miniature version of the MATEN, utilizing the small frame MML set and same furniture.

To your point though, both barrels shot 75 AE and 60 grain Varmint significantly better than the heavies. Less recoil in those. The JP was sub MOA with the 60 grain but awful with the heavies. I wanted an option with factory ammo and since it didn’t like any of the high BC factory options, I didn’t proceed.

I have a 6.5 Grendel barrel coming and can test the build and recoil with that.

 

[gopherslayer]

Not trying (consciously) to sound stupid. Just trying to figure out if "brand" ... like the difference between those two barrels ... will have a greater difference than the combination of multiple other entering arguments. Asked differently, are there any $100 barrels, that with the right combination of skill, scope, ammo, twist, length, etc. ... will shoot sub-MOA. It sounds like your answer may be "probably not - spend more".

I'm still learning, so thanks for the guidance. I admittedly have more high-end rifles and scopes than my experience probably justifies. That said, I consistently shoot sub-MOA with several of them, and made a mile-shot with my 300-WM this summer. This .224-Valkyrie is my first "build" (non-assembled-new) ... hence the stupid questions.

Just trying to catch up quickly. I fully realize that lessons learned on this forum ... usually come with public bruises.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

Yes you can get lucky with a barrel. I bought a Midway AR Stoner “DMR” in 223 Wylde and it’s a sub MOA shooter and almost out does my Criterion in same contour and length. $120 vs $300. My intention was to experiment with the Stoner barrel and start chopping it in length to see how it performed. It performed so well I’m leaving it alone.

 

[rustyinbend]

I find this curious too.
Sorry to hear about those that are having trouble.

"Curious" is a great word. I swapped out the Pro2A Ballistic Advantage upper ($450) for a new White Oak Armament upper ($850) ... hoping to take the cheap(er) barrel out of the "curiosity". Just got back from the range - took 3 rifles. Shot consistent sub-MOA tight groups with a 6.5 Grendel (semi-cheap PSA upper) and my new Tikka T3x TAC A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Then went to exercise my new .224 ... and was disappointed with 2-to-3-MOA and very inconsistent results. Sometimes super close for two shots, then a 3-MOA flier, then close, then not. Thought I had this .224 thing solved, but apparently not. Last range trip for barrel break-in gave me hope ... that's now been crushed.

Dude on a bench nearby heard me swearing, came by, and described exactly the same experiences with his .224 ... and I felt better. So short of stepping up another few hundred "barrel-buck" ... or spending a bunch of money with a gunsmith to figure this out ... maybe I just have to be "OK" with big groups, and only pull out the .224 when I feel like being abused. I have other rifles that don't abuse me.

Pretty frustrating ... life goes on ... definitely a "1st-World Problem".

 

[Constructor]

You almost have to wonder if the bigger cartridge is exploiting people' s fundamental weakness in their shooting ability,

Unless the barrels were cut with the wrong reamer originally, they were the old ones prior to the change?

It seems weird all these, 3 MOA barrels with a cartridge I find to shoot really well.

Hell, even the cheap-ass 75gr American Eagle shoots great in my rifles, there has been no issue using any factory ammo, and when I shot Brian Whalen's handloads they were not special and worked great.

Odd,

I found the reamer mistake. The first batch of barrels had a long freebore and shot the 75gr AE better than the 90SMK. The second batch using a JGS reamer that matched the SAAMI spec freebore perfectly shot the 90s much better but then they didn't shoot the 75s well. Both shot the 60gr factory ammo well. If using PRI mags with the 80 and 88 ELD loaded to max mag length of 2.295 the long freebore did not shoot well but loaded to 2.32 and single fed they shot well. Of course the second batch with the SAAMI spec freebore shot them much better when loaded to 2.295.

 

[rustyinbend]

I found the reamer mistake. The first batch of barrels had a long freebore and shot the 75gr AE better than the 90SMK. The second batch using a JGS reamer that matched the SAAMI spec freebore perfectly shot the 90s much better but then they didn't shoot the 75s well. Both shot the 60gr factory ammo well. If using PRI mags with the 80 and 88 ELD loaded to max mag length of 2.295 the long freebore did not shoot well but loaded to 2.32 and single fed they shot well. Of course the second batch with the SAAMI spec freebore shot them much better when loaded to 2.295.

So what do I need to have to look for the dreaded "reamer mistake"? Is there a tool required?

 

[Triple D]

Lennyo3034 can put together a nice AR and can shoot to boot, so I doubt that’s his issue.

@lennyo3034, I ordered another WOA barrel, but it was backordered. Once it gets here and I proof test it, I can send you either the 22” or the 24” +2 gas. The 22” has proven to be sub moa with the 90gr FGMM.

 

[Constructor]

So what do I need to have to look for the dreaded "reamer mistake"? Is there a tool required?

You need a .224 inspection pin cut down to 1" long seated into a resized case with a slit cut in one side of the neck that will allow the pin to slide in when chambered by hand. After you extract the case and pin measure the overall length. It should be 1.676". It's best to remove the upper from the lower and push the BCG forward by hand.
You can buy a OAL gauge from Hornady and do the same thing, you push the pin forward with a wound wire that goes through the case.

 

[flyright]

My friend's .224V LMT MRP conversion (factory from LMT) is shooting 1/2 moa pretty regularly and with all 75-90 grain bullets. Everything he puts in it - truly a good one. I don't know if LMT has figured something out or not. I'm considering buying one for my MRP but I'm betting it won't be the same.

 

[lennyo3034]

Lennyo3034 can put together a nice AR and can shoot to boot, so I doubt that’s his issue.

@lennyo3034, I ordered another WOA barrel, but it was backordered. Once it gets here and I proof test it, I can send you either the 22” or the 24” +2 gas. The 22” has proven to be sub moa with the 90gr FGMM.

Thanks. Sorry I forgot to get back to you. Holidays.

I'll be happy to test it. I'm going to give this grendel a go first though.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

My friend's .224V LMT MRP conversion (factory from LMT) is shooting 1/2 moa pretty regularly and with all 75-90 grain bullets. Everything he puts in it - truly a good one. I don't know if LMT has figured something out or not. I'm considering buying one for my MRP but I'm betting it won't be the same.

I have one of the limited stainless valkyrie barrels from LMT here as well as one of the normal CL LMT valkyrie barrels that came from redneckbmxr. I haven't shot the CL one much since it belongs to my brother in law but redneckbmxr spoke highly of it, still does. I plan to put some rounds through my stainless version tomorrow if time and weather allow and see how it does. It doesnt have 50 rounds on it yet so in sure things will settle in soon but initially it did not like the 90 grain smk loads at all. Like shotgun pattern terrible. The 75 grain TMJ shit was so, so. Hopefully the berger 80.5 load does well. I don't run semis well typically so that could very well be part of it but I'm no 5 or 6" shooter either like the 90 grain was doing.

 

[MontanaMan]

Asked differently, are there any $100 barrels, that with the right combination of skill, scope, ammo, twist, length, etc. ... will shoot sub-MOA. It sounds like your answer may be "probably not - spend more".

Thank you sir, may I have another?

Just adding to what LASH said, in general, with bolt guns as well as AR's, I've found that good quality barrels tend not to be very finicky to various loads & bullets; conversely, marginal quality barrels are almost always finicky & if they manage to shoot anything well, the range of what it will do it with, is much more limited.

Marginal barrels that have to have a single & very particular load to shoot well go down the road pretty damn fast...............life is too short to waste time on them, especially when there are numerous really good barrel suppliers to buy from.

JMHO, JME

MM

 

[rustyinbend]

Just adding to what LASH said, in general, with bolt guns as well as AR's, I've found that good quality barrels tend not to be very finicky to various loads & bullets; conversely, marginal quality barrels are almost always finicky & if they manage to shoot anything well, the range of what it will do it with, is much more limited.

What's your perspective on WOA barrels? I got this one, and I'm still struggling with accuracy.

 

[Triple D]

What's your perspective on WOA barrels? I got this one, and I'm still struggling with accuracy.

Not Lash, but I’ve got their 22” 1:6.5 twist and it’s submoa with FGMM 90’s.

 

[rustyinbend]

Still searching to solve my .224 Valkyrie "3-MOA-Mystery" ... used an endoscope and saw something I've never seen in my limited experiences. Gas block holes are always pretty "crisp" on my other rifles, but this one looks different. The imperfection is on the bolt side. Rest of the barrel looks fine. It's on my relatively new WOA barrel ... only 40-ish rounds through it, and after solid barrel break-in cleanings.

Should I be concerned about this? Or is it a "Nothing-Burger"?