I believe he’s talking about the used market.
However, a used Schmidt is a rare sight at under 2k. Happens, but not often.
$22-2400 is typically bottom dollar used for all models.
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Rifle Scopes Is the S&B PMII 5-25 still relevant in today's market given all of the options out there?
- Thread starter BP 3papa 7sierra
- Start date
I believe he’s talking about the used market.
However, a used Schmidt is a rare sight at under 2k. Happens, but not often.
$22-2400 is typically bottom dollar used for all models.
New doesn’t always equal better. Nor does old always equal irrelevant. Don’t get hyptnotized by new shiny things...
(This coming from the guy that bought a ZCO the week they came out ??)
Yup I agree and I am usually the guy watching for a little bit. It took me a long time to warm up to the Christmas tree reticles myself but once I started using them and seeing the advantages I jumped in with both feet. LOL
Haha not starting shit friend. But I think it is important to point out that he is paid to use the product (even if that is just getting a free scope). I do respect him for doing what he is paid to do which is market a product. I don't know Rob01 but he seems like a legit dude.
The S&B maybe the oldest 800 lb silverback gorilla in this jungle, but it's still an 800lb silverback gorilla.
My last two S&B 5-25s (Gen2 XR reticles) were purchased brand new from a Hide supporting vendor for under $2100 each. There were some amazing deals last summer. I am hoping we see some similar deals soon so I can pick up another 5-25.
Schmidt glass = vortex glass?
No.
Vortex reticles better than Schmidt reticles?
Probably maybe? Schmidt offers a huge amount of reticles, but nothing that fits the exact bill of the mr4/skmr3/ebrsomething trend everybody loves in the last few years. They almost came close with that grid reticle lol.
No.
Vortex reticles better than Schmidt reticles?
Probably maybe? Schmidt offers a huge amount of reticles, but nothing that fits the exact bill of the mr4/skmr3/ebrsomething trend everybody loves in the last few years. They almost came close with that grid reticle lol.
One more for ‘’glass clearly beats Razor’’. No way....the word clearly doesn’t fit in my view. But again it’s subjective and tendency is such that most will ‘’promote’’ what the have/know.
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That's an unbelievable deal and wayy below dealer price which is only set to increase in 2 weeks. I highly doubt you'll see sales like that again unless it's a reticle/scope that Schmidt plans to discontinue and wants to liquidate inventory like they did with the Gen 2 XR.
That said, the schmidt has better glass than a Razor 2. The razor isn't bad but anyone with decent vision is able to see the difference when side by side. There's a reason why Schmidt has been the king of the castle as long as it has. Today we are spoiled by a ton of options. If you can find a schmidt in the mid to low 2K range I wouldn't hesitate.
Save your little passive aggressive BS. Been hearing it for years and as I have said before my integrity is worth way more than any product. I don't lie in my posts ever. I put them up against each other when I first got the Razor II and just so it wasn't my eyes only I had all the others look through them too. So you might not think it but 7 people who looked through them side by side do.
I don't care what people use but don't try and call me a shill in open forum and think I am going to stand for that shit.
Rob01: If you read your post from yesterday you said ‘Glass on the S&B does not clearly beat the Razor ll’’... which is exactly what I said. Not sure what prompted your reply to my message. My message, based solely on my experience, as stated, was basically saying that S&B although an excellent scope I don’t believe is necessarily clearly better than the Razor....and thus the comment that ‘’clearl’y’’ is probably overstated in the statement by the person who said so.
It was towards the "promote" in quotes and after Nexus started earlier it appeared you were jumping on. If that was not your intent than I apologize. Just sick of people making that assumption.
I always find it hilarious that people think shooting sponsorships are worth much at all.
...and after reading my post I can understand how you can see it going in that direction. Was not my intent at all. However, I really appreciate your prompt reply and generous answer. That being said, does anyone have any decent experience with the IOR Crusader or Terminator? Contemplating one of those but never had a chance to touch one.
...and after reading my post I can understand how you can see it going in that direction. Was not my intent at all. However, I really appreciate your prompt reply and generous answer. That being said, does anyone have any decent experience with the IOR Crusader or Terminator? Contemplating one of those but never had a chance to touch one.
Shit.......
This is going to be all sorts of new entertainment.
I’ve had everything but ZCO and TT. Got to experience a TT for short time and It left me with a feeling that I needed a better paying job....
I have to agree with Rob01. Don’t know him, don’t think I’ve ever shot with him, but IMHO
I would have to give it a wash. 3 S&B 5x25 Gen II XRs and 3 Gen II razors. I had one S&B that stood above the others. It looked like it had different quality glass than he other two.
Actually slightly preferred the glass in my Gen II razors to the other 2 S&Bs. Those two broke, went back to Germany and were replaced and I sold the new ones and never looked back. Will a used S&B 5x25 serve you well.im sure it will. But For the price difference with used or new, I would buy the razor, or an AMG over the 5x25. And I’ve got the AMG, Kahles 5-25, and Minox MR4 now. For the prices I’ve seen used AMGs go for on here recently, it’s not a question. I haven’t owned the newer S&B scopes so can comment on those. That being said, My 3-12 MTC was flawless in every way. Everybody has had shit
Break. Were you taken care of? The one 5-25 S&B was one of the best scopes I’ve ever owned, glass and tracking. But I had 2 that didn’t live up to the hype. In S&Bs defense both of those 2 that broke had Premier installed Reticles, so I have no clue if that had anything to do with it. I just didn’t like being without my scopes as long as I was. There are plenty of great scopes to choose from with S&B being without a doubt one of those choices. And just like racing, that extra 3 tenths is gonna cost you a fortune. Is the TT the tits. Yes it is. Is ZCO right behind it and trying to take the title away, maybe. Does Schmidt build and sell some awesome scopes. Yes they do. I don’t shoot for a living. I am not sponsored. I work a job I freaking hate to put food on the table and a support my addiction. I want the best performance for each dollar I have to spend and the vortex AMG does that for me.
And please don’t bring up IOR in a thread about two manufacturers that actually know how to make a scope.
I have to agree with Rob01. Don’t know him, don’t think I’ve ever shot with him, but IMHO
I would have to give it a wash. 3 S&B 5x25 Gen II XRs and 3 Gen II razors. I had one S&B that stood above the others. It looked like it had different quality glass than he other two.
Actually slightly preferred the glass in my Gen II razors to the other 2 S&Bs. Those two broke, went back to Germany and were replaced and I sold the new ones and never looked back. Will a used S&B 5x25 serve you well.im sure it will. But For the price difference with used or new, I would buy the razor, or an AMG over the 5x25. And I’ve got the AMG, Kahles 5-25, and Minox MR4 now. For the prices I’ve seen used AMGs go for on here recently, it’s not a question. I haven’t owned the newer S&B scopes so can comment on those. That being said, My 3-12 MTC was flawless in every way. Everybody has had shit
Break. Were you taken care of? The one 5-25 S&B was one of the best scopes I’ve ever owned, glass and tracking. But I had 2 that didn’t live up to the hype. In S&Bs defense both of those 2 that broke had Premier installed Reticles, so I have no clue if that had anything to do with it. I just didn’t like being without my scopes as long as I was. There are plenty of great scopes to choose from with S&B being without a doubt one of those choices. And just like racing, that extra 3 tenths is gonna cost you a fortune. Is the TT the tits. Yes it is. Is ZCO right behind it and trying to take the title away, maybe. Does Schmidt build and sell some awesome scopes. Yes they do. I don’t shoot for a living. I am not sponsored. I work a job I freaking hate to put food on the table and a support my addiction. I want the best performance for each dollar I have to spend and the vortex AMG does that for me.
And please don’t bring up IOR in a thread about two manufacturers that actually know how to make a scope.
Between the NF 7-35 and S&B 5-25, does one have a larger eye at 25x than the other? What about 15x?
...and after reading my post I can understand how you can see it going in that direction. Was not my intent at all. However, I really appreciate your prompt reply and generous answer. That being said, does anyone have any decent experience with the IOR Crusader or Terminator? Contemplating one of those but never had a chance to touch one.
Never had a chance to touch one?
sounds good, maybe keep it that way.
To tell you the truth, I never really focused on that. Both scopes are really easy to get behind at any magnification. Never had any trouble with he eye box.
I'm flipping coins between Razor 4.4-27x56 with EBR7C and S&B 5-25x56 with GR2ID.......hard choice, 1000 flippers difference,not sure if I can appreciate this small detail looking thru one or another.
You’ll appreciate it if you own both and can tell the difference. If not you’ll be none the wiser.
Where you will really notice the difference is probably not inside of 1000 yards. At ELR ranges, there is a noticeable difference and where the PmII stands apart.
That's what I'm talking about. Unfortunately for me I have 20/15 vision and can read most of the 20/10 line, and I can see the differences all too well. Also unfortunately for me, it doesn't matter what glass I'm looking through, none of it makes me a better shooter LOL. The day they make a scope that makes my hold and follow through better is the day I sell all of my current scopes and get those.
I think of course the SB 5-25 is still relevant and still a great scope. You guys down in the US are lucky as the price there is killer.
Up in Canada we have weird things happening in regards to pricing and the SB is an extra $1,000+ compared to other Tier 1 scopes.
I had 3 of the 5-25s with H59 and now I have 3 of the Minox Zp5s. The glass is great in both - I think I see a bit better with the Minox but if someone else told me the SB had better glass I would not argue as you are splitting hairs about the glass.
I think the Minox has a better eye box (more forgiving) and I like the turret spacing more. I HATED the MTC turrets so I used the DT turrrets and the clicks are super nice but there are 14mils crammed on to those fairly thin turrets and the spacing is tight. The Minox/Kahles/TT/etc. all have 14 or 15mils on much fatter turrets and so the click spacing is easier.
I think if they put some nice big fat knobs on the 5-25 and called it a GenII it would sell like hotcakes again.
Up in Canada we have weird things happening in regards to pricing and the SB is an extra $1,000+ compared to other Tier 1 scopes.
I had 3 of the 5-25s with H59 and now I have 3 of the Minox Zp5s. The glass is great in both - I think I see a bit better with the Minox but if someone else told me the SB had better glass I would not argue as you are splitting hairs about the glass.
I think the Minox has a better eye box (more forgiving) and I like the turret spacing more. I HATED the MTC turrets so I used the DT turrrets and the clicks are super nice but there are 14mils crammed on to those fairly thin turrets and the spacing is tight. The Minox/Kahles/TT/etc. all have 14 or 15mils on much fatter turrets and so the click spacing is easier.
I think if they put some nice big fat knobs on the 5-25 and called it a GenII it would sell like hotcakes again.
Sunday i'm at the range for a test, S&B 5-25x56,3-27x56 and 5-45x56 versus Razor 4.5-27x56 .
I will make a decision after this test.
I had
Had a Terminator. It sucked. It was huge. Parallax was dumb. Eyebox/relief was bad. Glass was mediocre. Turrets/zero stop we're uninspired. I like the reticle and illumination was decent.
...and after reading my post I can understand how you can see it going in that direction. Was not my intent at all. However, I really appreciate your prompt reply and generous answer. That being said, does anyone have any decent experience with the IOR Crusader or Terminator? Contemplating one of those but never had a chance to touch one.
Had a Terminator. It sucked. It was huge. Parallax was dumb. Eyebox/relief was bad. Glass was mediocre. Turrets/zero stop we're uninspired. I like the reticle and illumination was decent.
Yea definitely pick something 800 yards out. Further if you can. 1k is nice.
At 100 yards a lot of scopes really look the same
95%? Man you need some better MDs out there. LOL The Christmas tree doesn't have to be used all the time but there if needed. The main part of the reticle can be used just like the one you do but if you need to hold out in those lower quadrants it's nice to have as it makes the hold much more accurate.
But reticles are personal preference so use what you like but I wouldn't give up a point or two that easy. They are hard enough to get.
I timed out on the vudoo stage at the peacemaker rimfire match dialing, then I watched you clean it with holds. I like to dial, but it definitely opened my eyes to being flexible when looking at different stages, especially with time restraints.
The S&B 5-25x56 PMII is the 50 year old grandpa that can still whip up on the young whipper snappers.
Love my S&B PMII with MSR. I looked at the Tremor3 but chose the simpler MSR reticle. Very happy with it, very easy to see trace. Maybe the biggest revelation for me is with the parallax. For anything beyond about 300 I just turn it to infinity and forget about it. Was down at Blue Steel Ranch last weekend and after zeroing never had to even think about parallax. Is that just my scope or is this normal with S&B? Other top tier scopes?
Most top tier scopes exhibit the same thing; just the ones I have owned personally that do it are the Minox ZP5 and AMG. Tangent Theta and ZCO I have been told exhibit the same feature; more or less parallax free past 300 yards.
It's one thing for the image to be focused. It's another for it to be parallax free. The Schmidt will look "focused" past 300 on any parallax setting, but that doesnt mean it's parallax free. From the factory you will find that in cold (under 45-50F) weather the schmidt even at infinity will not be parallax free on anything past about 500 yards.
I've found in cold weather many scopes need to be set on 2-300 yards further than you are looking until they become parallax free. In practice does this have a huge impact on hitting targets? Not really. Especially considering the most apparent effects are at longer distances where you are likely prone and square behind the rifle. It's the weird positional stuff where the error can affect your shot impact.
2 pages and 87 posts shows S&B is still relevant. Is the 5-25 the newest, greatest, shiniest? No but it is still a solid choice if it has a reticle you can use. If you buy used you can likely sell at the same price or close to it.
Thanks for the good input all. I tend to agree with the overall opinion that the S&B remains toward the top of the list when it comes to overall quality, features and useability.
Not saying this is indicative of PMii's but we had a 2 day prs match this weekend and I had 5 SF snipers on my squad. One had a PMII from work and it shifted zero about 6 times over the weekend. Ended up dropping 1.5 mils after each rezeroing. He said that they had another S&B at work that did the same thing. Shit was frustrating. Such a shame. Beautiful pantone color.
