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Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This
- Thread starter Lowlight
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I shot part 1 twice today. Both with the same gun, once with a brake and once with a TBAC ultra 7. Tripod with game changer standing, high stool kneeling, folding chair sitting, ice for prone. Overall it went a little better than I though I would do. I felt good for sitting and prone. I made standing work but was not happy with my natural POA. Kneeling has been tough for me for the last few years. I had a knee surgery and never got full ROM back out of it. It is my left knee and I am right handed. I went two knees down for both targets here. Target 2 I pushed all three shots low. I will have to spend some serious time to figure this position out again for me. For my setup, the can also made it noticeably too front heavy. It is about right with a brake, a little front heavy with the bipod folded up, and noticeably front heavy with the can and bipod.
Thanks for putting this out Chris. I look forward to using it and the subsequent parts to build up my fundamentals again.
Thanks for putting this out Chris. I look forward to using it and the subsequent parts to build up my fundamentals again.
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Didn’t print the sheet. Just used what I had.
Single bag, stable barricade. 6gt w/109’s and hornady brass
Single bag, stable barricade. 6gt w/109’s and hornady brass
Here is the target I modified for those putting alternate aiming points on, I did this version
if you download the attached PDF you should be good to go
if you download the attached PDF you should be good to go
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Yes, it's a capability thing I have no clue why it's doing that beyond changing the PDF settings probably
Like the 2nd time it did that, I will fix it later and repost it
Like the 2nd time it did that, I will fix it later and repost it
@ChrisWay
3 positions using the barricade and either gamechanger or rear bag, ty hen prone with bipod and bag.
Weather was 34 deg. 15-20 winds at 2 o'clock.
Rifle is a Havak in 6.5CM.
Just rolled up and shot this cold turkey, no warm ups. Found I had a hard time getting a steady hold with the variable winds and it really shows on target.
As I got lower to the ground in position, my group tightened significantly.
Going to have to do this again!
3 positions using the barricade and either gamechanger or rear bag, ty hen prone with bipod and bag.
Weather was 34 deg. 15-20 winds at 2 o'clock.
Rifle is a Havak in 6.5CM.
Just rolled up and shot this cold turkey, no warm ups. Found I had a hard time getting a steady hold with the variable winds and it really shows on target.
As I got lower to the ground in position, my group tightened significantly.
Going to have to do this again!
Attachments
First attempt at the kraft challenge.
All the shots were taken from the top of a leofoto tripod with the lh55 ball head then I just stuck my gamechanger on top instead of clamping in. I'm not sure why my groups where high, but I guess that's the point of this challenge to expose what I'm doing wrong. I want to try it on some barricades that I can lean into and see if that changes things. It's a fun practice session for sure.
All the shots were taken from the top of a leofoto tripod with the lh55 ball head then I just stuck my gamechanger on top instead of clamping in. I'm not sure why my groups where high, but I guess that's the point of this challenge to expose what I'm doing wrong. I want to try it on some barricades that I can lean into and see if that changes things. It's a fun practice session for sure.
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Helping to bring the sites average down today.
.223 rem Tikka T3x Lite w/ a new trigger spring. SWFA Fixed 6x scope. AE 50gr varmint rounds. Shot off a primos trigger stick tripod and my hunting backpack w/ a pillow in it. Standing was just the sticks, seated/kneeling I used the sticks and pack, prone just the pack.
Very light wind. Relatively warm (35ish). 100 yards. Had to dig the snow out for my target and to get my mat on the ground so hopefully that counts for extra credit.
Looks like I need to move about 2-3 clicks left. (among other things but that was the point of getting this rifle to shoot more with) I shot one sighter at a target I'd left on my stand ( and it was also 2-3 clicks right, but through my 6x scope I picked up the wrong mark and thought I was dead on).
Top left, and far right were standing. I know the bottom right was kneeling and I don't remember the bottom left one that's not part of the group. My two shooting goals this year are to reload a bit, and also work on shooting from positions other than prone. I shoot rifles solely for hunting out West and will end up with a good mule deer tag this year if I don't draw an archery elk tag.
.223 rem Tikka T3x Lite w/ a new trigger spring. SWFA Fixed 6x scope. AE 50gr varmint rounds. Shot off a primos trigger stick tripod and my hunting backpack w/ a pillow in it. Standing was just the sticks, seated/kneeling I used the sticks and pack, prone just the pack.
Very light wind. Relatively warm (35ish). 100 yards. Had to dig the snow out for my target and to get my mat on the ground so hopefully that counts for extra credit.
Looks like I need to move about 2-3 clicks left. (among other things but that was the point of getting this rifle to shoot more with) I shot one sighter at a target I'd left on my stand ( and it was also 2-3 clicks right, but through my 6x scope I picked up the wrong mark and thought I was dead on).
Top left, and far right were standing. I know the bottom right was kneeling and I don't remember the bottom left one that's not part of the group. My two shooting goals this year are to reload a bit, and also work on shooting from positions other than prone. I shoot rifles solely for hunting out West and will end up with a good mule deer tag this year if I don't draw an archery elk tag.
Tried it out today with my match gun. Standing and sitting from tripod. Kneeling from schmedium game changer on concrete bench (need to build a barricade).
Shot it again today. Spent some time yesterday evening reviewing the @Diver160651 thread about tripod use in PRS matches.
www.snipershide.com
Yesterday I shot from my primos trigger sticks while today I shot from a Promaster XC325c w/ a cheap midwayUSA rear bag on top (for seated I had my hunting pack across my lap still). T3x w/ a SWFA fixed 6x scope.
It was snowing and getting close to dark so I was rushed but I still shot better than yesterday just by working on a few of the tips from the thread above. I put a 6" plate out at 250 and hit it standing, seated, and prone (missed kneeling).
Going to keep working on it as this is obviously still a low score compared to many on here, but it's an easy "drill" to go outside and put 12 rounds on paper to measure progress.
I also adjusted .2Mil left prior to starting which helped after yesterday's shoot
Advanced Marksmanship - Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting
See the 2021 match schedule here: https://www.avenaltactical.com/ including the next UKD Team Match, 2 PRS Pro Bolt series, PRS SW Regional Qualifier, and monthly Hunter and PRS regional series, matches. Because our match was sold out 10 months in advance, we feel we should offer a spin up...
www.snipershide.com
Yesterday I shot from my primos trigger sticks while today I shot from a Promaster XC325c w/ a cheap midwayUSA rear bag on top (for seated I had my hunting pack across my lap still). T3x w/ a SWFA fixed 6x scope.
It was snowing and getting close to dark so I was rushed but I still shot better than yesterday just by working on a few of the tips from the thread above. I put a 6" plate out at 250 and hit it standing, seated, and prone (missed kneeling).
Going to keep working on it as this is obviously still a low score compared to many on here, but it's an easy "drill" to go outside and put 12 rounds on paper to measure progress.
I also adjusted .2Mil left prior to starting which helped after yesterday's shoot
Since hunting season is over I figured I better get back on the rifles and give this a try. The first standing shot was the far right. I just couldn't get stable on my tripod from the standing position. I used my 6mm creedmoor with factory Hornady 108 ELDM's.
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So the discussion came up with a buddy of mine. We debated about our first time doing the drill without any finite aiming point on the page. He made the case about having something there to help you aim for compromises the integrity of the test. We both discussed the possibility of using that to 'shrink the target.' So the end thought is that if you use something to alter the center of the target you compromise the integrity of the test. I proposed the idea that this week we'd do two of the untimed one with a finite aiming point and one without an aiming point to see if that impacts the validity of the exercise.
Use one of the outer corners. Whatever hash mark in your reticle lines up. Just like you would with a wind hold.
I can't really see those at a reasonable magnification either. I support what Chris is doing here, but I definitely think a contrasted aim point would be an improvement, and I also still think a circle would make more sense because it wouldn't favor missing in any particular direction.
You can’t see the outside diamond? If the crosshairs are lined up vertically and horizontally on the outside diamond, then you’re aimed dead center.
It’s just like a piece of steel. You use with you have. If this was just to see how tiny you can shoot, it would just be a dot drill.
You need to look at what's actually being tested with this drill.
1-is he trying to test your ability to see the thin lines of the target at distance through your scope?
2- is he trying to test your ability to center an object in your reticle and hit center consistently?
3- is he trying to test the consistency of you getting in and out of a shooting position building it consistently each time and keeping the same point of impact from position to position?
If you're trying to test more than one thing at a time the variables of the one compromise the results of the other leading to inconclusive results in both.
I believe he's just testing to see if you can get same point of impact from multiple shooting positions consistently.
Found one.
Yeah but it’s like shooting a piece of steel against a featureless background the exact same color as the steel. And yes, that happens, but it’s not the most common situation. This is an unusually low contrast target.
Keep in mind the OP is trying to scan images of black holes in the main target,
so any thicker tborde than like 1/8 inch can hide bullet holes...eg 22 or 26 cal etc.
use a hi vis 1 inch target spot or highlighter, it solve everything
so any thicker tborde than like 1/8 inch can hide bullet holes...eg 22 or 26 cal etc.
use a hi vis 1 inch target spot or highlighter, it solve everything
I posted a higher viz version
you aren’t supposed to focus on the lines just the center which I just stuck a pasty in the center like others did.
whenever you sample people diamonds are preferred over circles because they align the reticle better, you can validate with a diamond over a circle.
go pages back there are other targets to use
you aren’t supposed to focus on the lines just the center which I just stuck a pasty in the center like others did.
whenever you sample people diamonds are preferred over circles because they align the reticle better, you can validate with a diamond over a circle.
go pages back there are other targets to use
So I was the buddy @outofspec was referring to. I believe @Rusted Nut hit the nail on the head. We need to examine the purpose of the drill, and I hadn't thought about that. In my mind I was looking at it as a chance to train not only position repeatability but also, being able to visualize the center of a blank piece of steel at the same time. But as Nut said, that creates inconsistencies in the specific data @Chrisw is trying to gather. We are going to shoot the drill tomorrow with and without a sticky tomorrow just for some interesting data. Good discussion guys! Love this drill
Awesome to see all the comments after I asked the question. Thanks for letting me know what y'all think.
So I changed to a 168g from a 175g 308 which moved my point of impact, I didn't realize it until I had sent rounds down range and figured that I can measure as long as I didn't change my point of aim. The Kraft target I called it a 3 and the SH version I called a 4. I also did the Kraft stressed version which I will post in the stressed thread.
I was really happy to see that my training has contributed to a smaller group for this excercise, which is a drastic improvement. Thanks @ChrisWay
So I changed to a 168g from a 175g 308 which moved my point of impact, I didn't realize it until I had sent rounds down range and figured that I can measure as long as I didn't change my point of aim. The Kraft target I called it a 3 and the SH version I called a 4. I also did the Kraft stressed version which I will post in the stressed thread.
I was really happy to see that my training has contributed to a smaller group for this excercise, which is a drastic improvement. Thanks @ChrisWay
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Going back out today to do some more. Plan on doing 4-5 of them to see if I can keep it consistent or if things start to open up or tighten up.
May do some with a buddies dasher and a 419 Maverick as well just to try.
I think along with analysis, this is a phenominal training session.
You can do it as slow/fast as you want, keeps the round count relatively low, and keeps you from just wasting ammo banging on steel.
Helps a ton with position setup, NPA practice, etc as well.
With my 24" 308 in a Manners TCS.
May do some with a buddies dasher and a 419 Maverick as well just to try.
I think along with analysis, this is a phenominal training session.
You can do it as slow/fast as you want, keeps the round count relatively low, and keeps you from just wasting ammo banging on steel.
Helps a ton with position setup, NPA practice, etc as well.
With my 24" 308 in a Manners TCS.
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I shot standing off my ALICE pack, kneeling off a bar stool, sitting off my ALICE, and prone of the bipod.
The groups tightened progressively as I worked down. I dialed a little extra elevation per Frank’s observation before starting - needn’t have bothered, not enough accuracy as a shooter from any position but prone for it to matter.
The only good thing I can say for this target is I called every shot. I just couldn’t hold any tighter/steadier.
#kraftdata
The groups tightened progressively as I worked down. I dialed a little extra elevation per Frank’s observation before starting - needn’t have bothered, not enough accuracy as a shooter from any position but prone for it to matter.
The only good thing I can say for this target is I called every shot. I just couldn’t hold any tighter/steadier.
#kraftdata
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So this was my second time shooting this drill. I did it once without the shaded center and once with it. I didn't shoot as good this time as I did the time before. My first attempt I BARELY shot a 3moa group when my last attempt was a solid 2 moa try. After this run I did another on the snipershide version of this target and went back to shooting a 2moa group. I was using a barricade for standing and kneeling then a tripod for sitting. Was a fun drill and one I will continue to work often
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Well... after seeing the other postings I didn't orient the target correctly (I had the #s vertical as it printed instead of turning it horizontal). I will do it again correctly and I am posting this anyway.
It's a great baseline to build from. Very enlightening exercise. And my zero is off.
Beginner, 1 PRS match and 2 NRL .22 matches
50degrees, 14-18 winds, rain
CZ457, CCI Standard
RPR 6MM Creedmoor Hornady 108GR ELD
With the Ballistic X overlays
It's a great baseline to build from. Very enlightening exercise. And my zero is off.
Beginner, 1 PRS match and 2 NRL .22 matches
50degrees, 14-18 winds, rain
CZ457, CCI Standard
RPR 6MM Creedmoor Hornady 108GR ELD
With the Ballistic X overlays
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A little late to the party. Shot this with my 6GT PPR off of a tripod with a game changer on top. Wind was strong so my stability was not very good and I was timing my shots. Great drill it lets me know what my capabilities really are for different positions!
I used this as a positional practice before a NRL22 match. My wobble was insane, definitely need to work on that.
Here is why I said early on, this drill should morph for many shooters to include separate targets. With a single target, you lose essential data trends for many shooters.
So let me start by saying that I didn't perform the Kraft test as outlined. I did a similar drill I've been doing for years. Especially with the old 308s and my hunting magnums so I could see where and more importantly why I was getting offsets. Blaine Fields who brought us FFS, one of the early ultra-robust programs was my inspiration as years ago we where discussing the positional offset feature in his program. Truth be told, many of us used to load hard into the bipod, later push hard into the barricade, or strap up our tripods and when the bags came along, most of us saw a large offset between these heavily driven positions and the gun lightly loaded on a bag. Of course, no time later the calibers came down and the gun weights skyrocketed; so it became much easier to "balance" the load between bipod and the bag.
Here are 20 rounds of Berger Factory 6CM Ammo shot. Again, not exactly like the Kraft format, but same basic idea. I used 1 bag a schedium on top of an Able Table for support ( a bit less stable than a solid barricade position) for the non- prone shots.
Now here below is everything overlaid as if I shot them all (other than the dot drill) on the same POA.
tape for reference
My only point for posting is to get us to think about the value of using multiple targets on the same paper. If you can't shoot medium-sized groups maybe it should be multiple papers. Either way, breaking up your positions has a lot of value; that said you have to be honest with yourself and use the aggregate of all the groups like the single Kraft target to get an idea of what your total group size is.
Food for thought on round 2 of the Kraft project
So let me start by saying that I didn't perform the Kraft test as outlined. I did a similar drill I've been doing for years. Especially with the old 308s and my hunting magnums so I could see where and more importantly why I was getting offsets. Blaine Fields who brought us FFS, one of the early ultra-robust programs was my inspiration as years ago we where discussing the positional offset feature in his program. Truth be told, many of us used to load hard into the bipod, later push hard into the barricade, or strap up our tripods and when the bags came along, most of us saw a large offset between these heavily driven positions and the gun lightly loaded on a bag. Of course, no time later the calibers came down and the gun weights skyrocketed; so it became much easier to "balance" the load between bipod and the bag.
Here are 20 rounds of Berger Factory 6CM Ammo shot. Again, not exactly like the Kraft format, but same basic idea. I used 1 bag a schedium on top of an Able Table for support ( a bit less stable than a solid barricade position) for the non- prone shots.
- 1st group 5 shots middle "shoot-n-see" the best prone I could using the schedium as a rear bag
- 2nd group 5 shots lower "shoot-n-see", kneeling on a bag/able table, top of tripod slow. You can see that just like the standing 1-2 shots pulled low, I have a low string, which probably has to do with trigger press (rushing).
- 3rd group 5 shots upper "shoot-n-see", Standing on a bag/able table, top of tripod slow. Because there were not too many shots on the target when I rush the trigger on the third shot, I knew it was bad. I could easily see the problem, more importantly, I can see the trend is to push slightly right.
- 4th Group 5 shots, like a dot drill -.1mil adjusted: The individual shots on the left side were fast prone, going as quickly as I felt I could as if I was on a stage.
Now here below is everything overlaid as if I shot them all (other than the dot drill) on the same POA.
tape for reference
My only point for posting is to get us to think about the value of using multiple targets on the same paper. If you can't shoot medium-sized groups maybe it should be multiple papers. Either way, breaking up your positions has a lot of value; that said you have to be honest with yourself and use the aggregate of all the groups like the single Kraft target to get an idea of what your total group size is.
Food for thought on round 2 of the Kraft project
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Hi,
My Swedish contribution to this
challenge x 2
Shot at the wrong kind of a
target at the wrong distance with
my 6XC
Bare with me.
Distance - 300 meters
Orange square measures 70mm
Cheers
Emil
My Swedish contribution to this
challenge x 2
Shot at the wrong kind of a
target at the wrong distance with
my 6XC
Bare with me.
Distance - 300 meters
Orange square measures 70mm
Cheers
Emil
Just getting around to this.
Again, no. If you manage recoil consistently across positions, your POI is going to be the same (minus your wobble). The horizontal you are talking about is the wobble. And pretty much any vertical as well.
You see a POI shift when you drive the rifle differently.
This was (and several other groups) without account for anything. Just aiming at the same spot. Across the four positions.
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I agree. Now that is... On dec 27 when I posted that I had run a Ruger Precision Rimfire for two years. With that rifle prone to barricade i had to run two different ways to minimize poi shift. It still was 0.2 mil and if I was sloppy....
As of Jan 5 I now have a RimX in a ACC. With a solid chassis and consistently driving the rifle no poi shift. Using the same shoulder and grip pressure in all positions.
I'm liking this quality equipment thing...
Can anyone scale this target down to work with a DFAT or IOTA trainer.
Stuck indoors are a while, snowed in.
Stuck indoors are a while, snowed in.
Thanks. Here are two other groups. Rifle wasn’t zero’d completely. Used the drill to zero rifle. Hence the groups not being centered up like the other.
Which I think I’m going to continue doing. Using the 12 shit drill as a zero tool.
The first one I shot was the high/left. I adjust elevation and did another which resulted in the left. Then adjust right.
Smallest (final group) was .72moa. The others were .92 and .90moa.
And that was razor focused. This isn’t an easy drill at all. But I like it.
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First attempt. This is a good practice drill. I hardly ever shoot paper from positions. I need to do another run and try to center it up and shrink the horizontal.
Target was oriented exactly how it shows here with number 8 on the top.
Shot from this gate for standing, kneeling, sitting positions.
Target was oriented exactly how it shows here with number 8 on the top.
Shot from this gate for standing, kneeling, sitting positions.
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ok - 1st - this was more productive than I thought 2nd - I am going to try to do this every range trip (at least 4 rounds during this ammo shortage).
6.5 CM - hunter 16lb rifle - NF NX8 4-32 (light for hunter class)
Impact action and barrel - 2750 rds (still tight groups)
Practice reloads - Hornady Brass - Hornady 140 BTHP - 40 grains H4350 - Standard CCI LR primer
Treated it like a match with generous time - steady movement between positions, but build a position and shoot, not going slow to find premium stability.
Learned - rushed my first two kneeling and standing shots - 1/2 second more patience to settle position and rifle vastly improved consistency - DUH. My problem in real matches too, lol.
Fun stuff - thanks for putting this out there!
2nd - I am going to try to do this every range trip (at least 4 rounds during this ammo shortage).6.5 CM - hunter 16lb rifle - NF NX8 4-32 (light for hunter class)
Impact action and barrel - 2750 rds (still tight groups)
Practice reloads - Hornady Brass - Hornady 140 BTHP - 40 grains H4350 - Standard CCI LR primer
Treated it like a match with generous time - steady movement between positions, but build a position and shoot, not going slow to find premium stability.
Learned - rushed my first two kneeling and standing shots - 1/2 second more patience to settle position and rifle vastly improved consistency - DUH. My problem in real matches too, lol.
Fun stuff - thanks for putting this out there!
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