Mechanics of shooting bolt vs. semi

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#152
garandman said:
I agree 100%. A gas gun - BCUZ of the moving parts - will always be less inherently accurate than a bolt gun. One can mitigate that a bit with bolt / buffer / gas system tweaks. But there's NOTHING a shooter mechanically can do to remove the inherent inaccuracy (comparatively) of a gas gun vs. a bolt.

My question relates to something different that inherent acuracy of bolt vs. gas - what a shooter does before, during and after the shot. I maintain those are all the same, gas gun or bolt. I address that here, in my reply above to Triple D.

But if a guy can maximize the accuracy potential of a bolt, he can also (most probably) do that with a gas gun. (THis realtes to another post where I'm having problems repeating good groups with my gas gun (despite over 50 handload combinations) , and ppl insisting its operator error. I tell them I can run a bolt gun quite accurately -repeatable 0.36 MoA. So I maintain its something about the gun / barrel that's wrong and NOT my mechanics. THey proceed to curse and swear at me, calling me "fucktard" and my posts "retarded" and "the stupidest thing they ever heard" and that I "stepped on ym dick." Exact quotes. )
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Mechanics/fundamentals between bolt gun and semis are slightly different in terms of focus.

Semiautos have different physics involved that require much better fundamentals:
  • sear break to firing pin hits primer,
  • different physics of rotational hammer to strike firing pin
  • barrel time and bolt will more likely than not begin rotating just prior to bullet exit of muzzle,
  • upper has ability to move relative to lower under stress/recoil.

All these items add energy to the system in negative ways that are harder to control. These rifle movements and extra time for your body to make mistakes during trigger/recoil. So fundamentally, they require a different sort of pressure and focus to ensure highest level of precision.

Think of precision 22lrs and black powder rifles: the ignition takes longer from trigger and bullet is in the barrel 3-4 times longer than centerfires which means movement during trigger press and directly after can and does affect POI.

So fundamentally, you must be as perfect as possible to reach highest precision. In my experience this means a firmer hold on rifle (shoulder, cheek and firing hand) plus significantly more mental focus on mechanics than is required with a bolt gun.

My .02 cents.
 
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#153
elfster1234 said:
Asking a serious question here, how often do you shoot large frame AR’s? 308 and larger cartridge?
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I owned the one. Got it broke in, prolly 500+ rounds thru it. Wasn't as accurate as my 223 ( for me, anyway.)

Also got rid of it cuz I shoot most everythimg suppressed. Here's a pic of it (b4 I got my Ops Inc 12th) :

7090996


Just dumped too much crap back into the receiver.
 
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#154
lash said:
Guys, don’t waste your time on this guy. He is the classic definition of an askhole. He deleted his last thread, after putting most everybody that didn’t agree with him on ignore, just because he made a stupid statement and then kept doubling down on it. The truth is that he only wants to hear from people that completely agree with his statements and will put anyone else on ignore.

I tried to talk reason with him, but was placed on ignore also. He deleted his initial statement after being called out on it and tried to paint everyone he didn’t agree with as being vulgar and crass, when that was not the case at all.

I posted @Lowlight ’s video discussing the differences between shooting a bolt and a semi in that thread, but since dimwit put me on ignore he never saw it. It wouldn't make any difference anyway, because he only wants to show everybody how right he is and how wrong anybody who disagrees with him are.

Somebody do a solid and post Franks video again so he can see it. I would, but he won’t see it if I do it.

Good luck having a “discussion” with this idiot.
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Just another one of the influx of know it all, haven't done anything loud mouths that have flooded the site the last 3-5+ years.

What's the phrase about opening your mouth and removing all doubt? A lot of people here would be better off to open their mind and close their mouth.

So much knowledge to be gleaned from this site
 
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#156
garandman said:
What's fascinating is that NONE of the experts here have posted up their sub half MoA 5x5's to show everyone how its done / the excellent accuracy that is posible from a semi, and how they can be regarded as such experts on how to shoot a semi.
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You should check out Elfster's You Tube channel. This guy can shoot! I really enjoy watching his videos. I need to watch his reloading series. Anyway here's a link to a video of Eflster shooting what I think are off the shelf RRA Varmint and ATH ARs.

 
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#157
elfster1234 said:
Get a load of James Phillips. He makes his own bullets and I swear he sleeps with his firearms and reloading gear. Record holding 600 br shooter for some time. His 300 yard groups will destroy your 100 yard groups, all in the bulls too. I’ve never seen anyone print 6x5’s like him, all off sand bags. It’s a whole different level of accuracy...
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If it's the James Phillips I've seen on other forums, he is indeed a *very* good shooter/loader.

That said, I do have to question if he shot that from a Harris/Atlas style bipod, per your rule #9...
 
#158
garandman said:
And while my shooter error MAY WELL cause a group to open up from 0.50" to 0.75" ....it WILL NOT cause it to open from 0.50" to 1.75"...which is what I'm seeing when I try to repeat a load / shoot a 5 x 5.
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How do you know? Because, I believe it CAN. That’s not based on your shooting level, but it’s based on watching guys shoot AR’s that don’t drive them properly.

It’s usually the guys that think they can shoot a gas gun the same way they shoot a bolt gun.
 
#159
Triple D said:
How do you know? Because, I believe it CAN. That’s not based on your shooting level, but it’s based on watching guys shoot AR’s that don’t drive them properly.

It’s usually the guys that think they can shoot a gas gun the same way they shoot a bolt gun.
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Cuz I know my ability. And you DO NOT. At all. You know NOTHING at all about me.

I don't care what you beleive about me / my ability, coming out of gross ignorance. Got it?

And I don't care what *can* happen with OTHER shooters. I'm not "Other shooters."

I know what I can do, and am capable of.
 
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#160
Triple D said:
How do you know? Because, I believe it CAN. That’s not based on your shooting level, but it’s based on watching guys shoot AR’s that don’t drive them properly.

It’s usually the guys that think they can shoot a gas gun the same way they shoot a bolt gun.
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BTW.... ALL the pics I posted of my groups.... you DO realize those were NOT 5x5's of the same load ...but were OCW / ladder tests of DIFFERENT LOADS , right?? That the groups opened up due to DIFFERENT powder quantities, which happens to EVERYONE, right? I mean.... you knwo how that works, right?

RIGHT????
 
#161
That’s him! Whole different level of accuracy... I almost need to create his own board for him to play with himself LOL

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6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...
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milanuk said:
If it's the James Phillips I've seen on other forums, he is indeed a *very* good shooter/loader.

That said, I do have to question if he shot that from a Harris/Atlas style bipod, per your rule #9...
Click to expand...
 
#163
Rules are Harris / atlas style bipod (non f class), sand bags, or freehand. He did it off sandbags

elfster1234 said:
That’s him! Whole different level of accuracy... I almost need to create his own board for him to play with himself LOL

Tennessee Tack-Driver

6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...
www.6mmbr.com
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#164
garandman said:
BTW.... ALL the pics I posted of my groups.... you DO realize those were NOT 5x5's of the same load ...but were OCW / ladder tests of DIFFERENT LOADS , right?? That the groups opened up due to DIFFERENT powder quantities, which happens to EVERYONE, right? I mean.... you knwo how that works, right?

RIGHT????
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Looks like you shot some pretty decent groups to me. I always had the best luck with 77 SMKs and varget. I got rid of all my large frame ARs 6.5 and 308 for the exact reason lowlight talked about the movement. There fun to shoot but there’s not a whole of point hunting with them and I can say they don’t work well for PRS for me at least. I’m trying some of 80 grain Sierras in my bolt gun and playing with a 224 Valkyrie precision rifle with 90 grains. What is your twist rate. You may have posted it but I don’t want to read this whole damn thread. Keep shooting
 
#165
bschneiderheinze said:
Looks like you shot some pretty decent groups to me. I always had the best luck with 77 SMKs and varget. I got rid of all my large frame ARs 6.5 and 308 for the exact reason lowlight talked about the movement. There fun to shoot but there’s not a whole of point hunting with them and I can say they don’t work well for PRS for me at least. I’m trying some of 80 grain Sierras in my bolt gun and playing with a 224 Valkyrie precision rifle with 90 grains. What is your twist rate. You may have posted it but I don’t want to read this whole damn thread. Keep shooting
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They were decent. The problem came when I tried to repeat them.... they opened up significantly. Likely some shooter error, its was pretty windy that day, I was using a new type of target, etc. That and I ran about 50 rounds thru a suprpessed gun in about 30 minutes. Mighta heated up the barrel too much. Its a 1:8 twist

I'll need to try again.

But yes... I just ordered a 224V bolt and am thinking of sticking with bolt guns. I'm not happy at anything much over half MoA. Expecting consistent half MoA out of a semi may exceed my abilities, given the time available to master the skill set.
 
#167
garandman said:
They were decent. The problem came when I tried to repeat them.... they opened up significantly. Likely some shooter error, its was pretty windy that day, I was using a new type of target, etc. That and I ran about 50 rounds thru a suprpessed gun in about 30 minutes. Mighta heated up the barrel too much. Its a 1:8 twist

I'll need to try again.

But yes... I just ordered a 224V bolt and am thinking of sticking with bolt guns. I'm not happy at anything much over half MoA. Expecting consistent half MoA out of a semi may exceed my abilities, given the time available to master the skill set.
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My suppressor will get hot enough on my bolt gun in 223 that I have to wait until I get home to take it off. Heat will definitely kill you will an AR. I try to tell that to guys at the range that are shooting pencil barrels and pop off 100 rounds in 20 minutes then don’t understand why they can’t get it sighted in properly. I don’t know if your shooting prone or off a bench but I find them much easier to handle prone. Someone will chime in and say it doesn’t make a difference
 
#168
bschneiderheinze said:
My suppressor will get hot enough on my bolt gun in 223 that I have to wait until I get home to take it off. Heat will definitely kill you will an AR. I try to tell that to guys at the range that are shooting pencil barrels and pop off 100 rounds in 20 minutes then don’t understand why they can’t get it sighted in properly. I don’t know if your shooting prone or off a bench but I find them much easier to handle prone. Someone will chime in and say it doesn’t make a difference
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Off a bench. Two knee injuries (one in each knee) make prone challenging for me. I always found prone super uncomfartable in the neck / shoulders and lower back... I would tense / stiffen up, and that's hardly conducive to good shooting.
 
#170
bschneiderheinze said:
Looks like you found the low node for varget I would try upping the charge and find the high node should be safe with 24.5 that’s I shoot with 75 hornady bthp with no pressure signs.
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Oher pics I posted show a low node for 8208 XBR. I'd like to find a high node for that, as it meters better from my powderdispenser / scale.
 
#185
garandman said:
If only. :)
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Hey GARANDMAN, as you and I have have come to a ceasefire I highly recommend that you do the same with everybody else, stop responding to other people's comments and just give it some time and try to learn a little bit from this experience.

as you and I have already discussed this I don't believe you have any malicious intent behind your inherent desire to stick to your guns (no pun intended).

So my advice as an impartial person now is for you to take a sabbatical recharge your batteries and come back after this has blown over.

And if you want to stick what the semi auto platforms and learn more about how to properly operate them I'm sure a lot of us would be more than happy to help you.


Jake
 
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#189
bigjake83 said:
Hey GARANDMAN, as you and I have have come to a ceasefire I highly recommend that you do the same with everybody else, stop responding to other people's comments and just give it some time and try to learn a little bit from this experience.





Jake
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Interesting proposition.

But lemme clarify..... *** I*** am spozed to stop responding to insults and false statements and distortion of my posts and tons of trolling me ...but the ppl making them and trolling me aren't spozed to stop ....

And.... What would I learn from "this experience?" That this forum is the domain of trolls and ppl who start pissing matches?

What?
 
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#194
garandman said:
Answer the question. What would *** I *** learn from following bigjakes recommendation?

That this forum is troll central? That ppl here insult, attackj others to make themselves feel superior? I'm already aware of that.
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You won’t learn anything cause you’re a fuckin dumbass
 
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