New 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge

[padom]

Loaded up some AR Comp today with 85 SMK to do an OCW and see how it shoots and velocities. Since there isnt much info out there on this combo I loaded up 5shot each in 0.3gr increments from 25.0 to 27.1 based off some QL numbers I ran. It was a tad under what I thought so Ill work up a little more from 27.1 but damn accuracy and SD's were excellent and no temp stability issues like with CFE223. Also, a much softer, more of a slight push recoil impulse vs CFE223.. Much smoother shooting. Everything was under 0.75" with multiple groups sub 0.5" all shot at 100yd.

I also wanted to test this American Reloading MP540 small stick powder that I bought 32lb of a while back and never tested any of it. If you search MP540 theres a few guys that tested it and said it was amazing and very similar to VV N140...

I had ZERO data for this other than the 308 data on the label so I tried cross referencing that with some QL data of similar powders and came up with an OCW/pressure test of 25.0gr to 27.5gr in 0.5gr increments. Well, I was a tad low on my pressure test.. 27.5gr was slower than I thought it would be so Ill work up some more loads from 27.5 to 29.5gr to get up around that 2850-2900 mark..

But, accuracy was really good with this MP540 and SD were excellent. Shit, the very first group I shot 25.0gr had an ES of 2.0 and an SD of 0.8 and was just a hair above a 0.25" group at 100yd..

Really looking forward to playing more with these 2 powders in 6 ARC. Especially from a temp stability standpoint compared to Lever and CFE223...

 

[Jdowns0415]

106 ATIP and 105 VLD hybrid bergers with 27.8gr of Lever behind hornady brass and CCI 41’s. For some reason every can of lever I’ve tried is way over velocity versus the hornady book. Really bad mirage and it was 98 degrees in the sun so the fliers are on me. Overall good to go for me with velocity and SD. No pressure signs so next week I’ll be taking this out to 1200 yards to see if it retains its accuracy.

 

[padom]

Plugging these MP540 numbers into QL, it is lining up with VV N540 almost perfectly. Within 5fps of each charge I shot today.. Gonna bump it up to 28.7gr which keeps me under 52000psi and gets velocity up to 2835 or so..

 

[supercorndogs]

I have been using mp501 in mine. It seems to run right around cfe223 and lever. I shot some 90 tgk with varget this morning but it didn't seem to like varget. That would be a first for me. LOL.

 

[padom]

I have been using mp501 in mine. It seems to run right around cfe223 and lever. I shot some 90 tgk with varget this morning but it didn't seem to like varget. That would be a first for me. LOL.

Suprised Varget didn't do well. Not many things I can't get to shoot Varget well. Maybe it's the bullet?

 

[padom]

I got 300rd down this barrel now and it's printing some really nice groups consistently. AR Comp looks to be the powder for these 85 SMK. No pressure and 27.1gr is within 20fps from my 31gr CFE223 load but WAY better temp stability and better accuracy.

MP540 is producing some really good accuracy and ES/SD's but slower than AR comp. Gonna test it a little higher and see if I can get it in that 2850-2900 range with good numbers and accuracy.


Just finished cleaning, annealing, sizing and trimming on the Henderson these 3x starline. Ready to load up.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I got 300rd down this barrel now and it's printing some really nice groups consistently. AR Comp looks to be the powder for these 85 SMK. No pressure and 27.1gr is within 20fps from my 31gr CFE223 load but WAY better temp stability and better accuracy.

MP540 is producing some really good accuracy and ES/SD's but slower than AR comp. Gonna test it a little higher and see if I can get it in that 2850-2900 range with good numbers and accuracy.


Just finished cleaning, annealing, sizing and trimming on the Henderson these 3x starline. Ready to load up.

85SMK seams ideal for ARC.

 

[SigSauerM7]

For guys reading this trying to figure out what barrel/gas system length, and bolt combo, the easy way is just spend the extra money and get a JP bolt and Proof Research barrel.

5-6 Pound 6ARC with Gray PMAGs would be hot.

 

[padom]

Goy back out today to test 85 SMK and AR Comp higher. Shitty shooting conditions today. 65F, windy and pouring. I still went as I was testing for velocity but it still printed good groups for the conditions around 0.5moa...

27.7gr seems to be just about perfect. 2895, SD5 and half moa 5 shot group in shitty conditions.



Also, I reshot 2 charge weights from my AR Comp range session last week. 26.5gr and 27.1gr. Last week I shot in 88F and today I shot in 65F. So 33 degrees cooler and within 8fps of last session. That's the temp stability I'm looking for.


I also shot some higher charges of 87VMAX and AR MP540.

Accuracy and SD's continued to be good but velocity just isn't there. Ran into compressed charges so this powder seems to be a no go for fast 80's unless you want to shoot in the 2700's. It's stupid accurate though.

 

[Kocher]

So I’m sending out my 22 inch barrel to Craddock today finally as I’ve been extremely busy.

In the meantime, I had a thought of getting a shorter barrel as 22 inches bit long and not as handy as 16 inch.


16” 6-ARC too short?

I have noticed that there has been a trend to get shorter barrels but also seen other saying a Shorter barrel hasn’t affected accuracy?
How much shorter did you compare this to? Are we talking 2 inches? Are we talking in 10 inches difference from your previous rifle?

When you have a shorter barrel, you will have unburned powder being flung at the bullet.
flung powder will not be the same when it comes in contact of the back and sides of the bullet. This at minimum would cause possible center or cross center gravity shift to the bullet.

The increased muzzle blast pressure that’s coming out of the barrel that will be much more with the shorter barrel than the longer barrel, will not push the bullet in the same spot every time.

Adding a barrel device, whether it’s a compensator or silencer will help shape the concussion blast possibly more consistently, allowing the shorter barrel muscle blast to be a little more unified?

So combine with substantial muzzle, blast, and ejecto flung unburned powder onto the bullet. I don’t believe that the shorter barrels are going to be as accurate, how much less accurate is the question. Combine all the other noise going on in a AR platform when you send a round downward, the accuracy change may get drowned out by all the other little things that effect force vibrations on a AR.

It seems others only concentrate on the effect of muzzle velocity with shorter barrels? Perhaps concentrating on more fun than making it so complicated looking at the other changes going on.

perhaps it’s just indiscernible evidence of accuracy when you’re dealing with an gas gun platform because it’s just not as accurate as bolt actions.?

 

[david walter]

I have a 22" Proof heavy weight and a 16" Faxon lightweight.

The 22" is faster and more accurate, but the lightweight Faxon is accurate enough for hunting out to 450 yards or so, the furthest I've shot that one.

Where I hunt its either under 200 yards, or unlimited.

When hunting out to 700 yards, I take along a 6.5 Creedmoor.

The 22" Proof is fun gun.

 

[padom]

So I’m sending out my 22 inch barrel to Craddock today finally as I’ve been extremely busy.

In the meantime, I had a thought of getting a shorter barrel as 22 inches bit long and not as handy as 16 inch.


16” 6-ARC too short?

I have noticed that there has been a trend to get shorter barrels but also seen other saying a Shorter barrel hasn’t affected accuracy?
How much shorter did you compare this to? Are we talking 2 inches? Are we talking in 10 inches difference from your previous rifle?

When you have a shorter barrel, you will have unburned powder being flung at the bullet.
flung powder will not be the same when it comes in contact of the back and sides of the bullet. This at minimum would cause possible center or cross center gravity shift to the bullet.

The increased muzzle blast pressure that’s coming out of the barrel that will be much more with the shorter barrel than the longer barrel, will not push the bullet in the same spot every time.

Adding a barrel device, whether it’s a compensator or silencer will help shape the concussion blast possibly more consistently, allowing the shorter barrel muscle blast to be a little more unified?

So combine with substantial muzzle, blast, and ejecto flung unburned powder onto the bullet. I don’t believe that the shorter barrels are going to be as accurate, how much less accurate is the question. Combine all the other noise going on in a AR platform when you send a round downward, the accuracy change may get drowned out by all the other little things that effect force vibrations on a AR.

It seems others only concentrate on the effect of muzzle velocity with shorter barrels? Perhaps concentrating on more fun than making it so complicated looking at the other changes going on.

perhaps it’s just indiscernible evidence of accuracy when you’re dealing with an gas gun platform because it’s just not as accurate as bolt actions.?

Shorter barrels being less accurate isnt a thing. Thats been proven many times over. Having a shorter barrels is no less accurate and in some cases has been proven to be more accurate because it is stiffer. A shorter barrel will just have less velocity.

Also, if your getting unburnt powder than your using the wrong powder for that combo of barrel length and bullet....


Here is 6 ARC run in QL with a 16" barrel and 85 SMK for optimal powder set for max saami PSI and max case capacity..

As you can see, there are multiple powders that give you 99-100% powder burn and 90-110% optimal case capacity. Again, AR Comp is top of the list for 6 ARC with 80-90gr bullets which I have tested and shoot lights out stupid accurate..

 

[Kocher]

Having a distinct weight advantage (specially when walking for long periods ) offsets, I think the velocity and perhaps slight decrease in accuracy shorter barrel has. 22” barrel is not light, yet heavy is better for a walk and setup on bipod and wait scenarios.

 

[padom]

Having a distinct weight advantage (specially when walking for long periods ) offsets, I think the velocity and perhaps slight decrease in accuracy shorter barrel has. 22” barrel is not light, yet heavy is better for a walk and setup on bipod and wait scenarios.

Again, shorter barrel has ZERO decrease in accuracy. I have tested this heavily in 223, 308 and 6.5cm. There was zero accuracy drop, just velocity drop.

What you do with that gun, whether its walking or sitting at a bench is something you need to decide whats best for you and your application, but has nothing to do with accuracy.

 

[rpoL98]

Having a distinct weight advantage (specially when walking for long periods ) offsets, I think the velocity and perhaps slight decrease in accuracy shorter barrel has. 22” barrel is not light, yet heavy is better for a walk and setup on bipod and wait scenarios.

were you the one that was using the ejector to push the cartridge forward in the chamber, resulting in a 0.030" air gap between the bolt face and the cartridge base? something like that? a new theory? I scrolled back, and can't find that post now. kind of lost track, "TLDR" short attention span on my part, and can't remember sh!t.

anyways, hope you got that all sorted now. was that with this 22" barrel that you're having problems with?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

were you the one that was using the ejector to push the cartridge forward in the chamber, resulting in a 0.030" air gap between the bolt face and the cartridge base? something like that? a new theory? I scrolled back, and can't find that post now. kind of lost track.

anyways, hope you got that all sorted now. was that with this 22" barrel that you're having problems with?

That sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[supercorndogs]

My 16" faxon light barrels 6 arc is lite and shoots pretty well. I have been shooting 100g Speers mostly over 29.5g of mp501 at 2620. I was going g to work up a diffrent load for deer. I started but I think I might abandon that project and just use the Speer. I bought it while I was waiting on rainer. No complaints. It shoots better than I exepct from 150 dollar barrel. It needed polishing on thr barrel extention. Like I expect from a....

 

[Kocher]

Shorter barrels being less accurate isnt a thing. Thats been proven many times over. Having a shorter barrels is no less accurate and in some cases has been proven to be more accurate because it is stiffer. A shorter barrel will just have less velocity.

Also, if your getting unburnt powder than your using the wrong powder for that combo of barrel length and bullet....


Here is 6 ARC run in QL with a 16" barrel and 85 SMK for optimal powder set for max saami PSI and max case capacity..

As you can see, there are multiple powders that give you 99-100% powder burn and 90-110% optimal case capacity. Again, AR Comp is top of the list for 6 ARC with 80-90gr bullets which I have tested and shoot lights out stupid accurate..

Quick load looks pretty great. I will have to try and start using that program.


I didn’t see leverlution on list, maybe I missed it.


very few do 100% burn and you’ve either got the AR comp and 3031 and the other ones were like tin star and, some super light loads for lead bullets ?

Very few did 100% burn. I realize you’re saying that if it’s fling out your end of your barrel, it’s the wrong powder but almost all of them did 97%

 

[Kocher]

That sounds like a terrible idea.

no, I’ll sum it up

when I first got the barrel. I tried a no go gauge. It didn’t go. the plunger being left in the bolt gave me a false reading…

It is possible, if the barrel was spun on their AR upper. Not using proper tools.

One needs to use a barrel spud otherwise you can have unscrewing of the barrel bolt extension, can have your index in pin sheer off bend, etc.

I don’t think many use one of these because they are expensive. You can try and make your own, but some people use a combination of a extension wrench and a receiver in a vice and the combination of those when putting on your barrel nut can prevent twisting and slipping of that barrel extension.



My brass growth is .030. Or maybe even more as I had bumped them back to semi spec.

Tried the nogo gauge with the ejector/plunger, removed from the bolt= and it went in no problem.

 

[padom]

Quick load looks pretty great. I will have to try and start using that program.


I didn’t see leverlution on list, maybe I missed it.


very few do 100% burn and you’ve either got the AR comp and 3031 and the other ones were like tin star and, some super light loads for lead bullets ?

Very few did 100% burn. I realize you’re saying that if it’s fling out your end of your barrel, it’s the wrong powder but almost all of them did 97%


Does the same result of no accuracy change and no burn powder if you’re using magnum cartridges? Dealing with 70 grains of powder compared to 27 is a bit different in amounts.

Lever isnt on the list I posted because it didnt meet the criteria I set when populating the list.. Why didnt it meet the list? Because its only getting a 70-80% powder burn in a 16" barrel. Thats a bunch of powder not being burnt. Also, its EXTREMELY temp unstable which is why I dont use it.. Huge swings in velocity... Very few loads give you a dead on 100% powder burn. Rule is to find a load, powder, bullet combo for your barrel that give you 90% or better powder burn.. 97% is excellent powder burn

H332, N135, AR Comp, IMR 3031, N540 all have 97.5% or better burn rate at that charge weight. Thats just a starting point for you to know where to start your load development. Thats not your final load, your barrel will tell you your final load.


Doesnt matter if we are talking magnum or any other cartridge, barrel length has no affect on accuracy.. Powder burn rate has to do with your load and bullet and powder being used. There is a reason why certain powders are better for shorter barrels vs longer barrels.

So, if your saying or asking a load that you developed for 6 ARC in your 22" barrel will be less accurate in your 16" barrel.... That COULD be true. But Id be doing load workup from scratch on that 16" barrel with optimal powder and find what shoots best in that barrel just like any other barrel I reload for....

 

[Kocher]

“Shorter barrels being less accurate isnt a thing. Thats been proven many times over. Having a shorter barrels is no less accurate and in some cases has been proven to be more accurate because it is stiffer. A shorter barrel will just have less velocity.”

I had thought the same thing …. I heard some information that put in place some doubt on it though.

I don’t have enough information personally, or have talked to others enough only here and there and usually in forums it is what it is as far as information…

 

[Kocher]

Lever isnt on the list I posted because it didnt meet the criteria I set when populating the list.. Why didnt it meet the criteria? Because its only getting a 70-80% powder burn in a 16" barrel. Thats a bunch of powder not being burnt. Also, its EXTREMELY temp unstable which is why I dont use it.. Huge swings in velocity... Very few loads give you a dead on 100% powder burn. Rule is to find a load, powder, bullet combo for your barrel that give you 90% or better powder burn.. 97% is excellent powder burn

H332, N135, AR Comp, IMR 3031, N540 all have 97.5% or better burn rate at that charge weight. Thats just a starting point for you to know where to start your load development. Thats not your final load, your barrel will tell you your final load.


Doesnt matter if we are talking magnum or any other cartridge, barrel length has no affect on accuracy.. Powder burn rate has to do with your load and bullet and powder being used. There is a reason why certain powders are better for shorter barrels vs longer powders.

So, if your saying or asking a load that you developed for 6 ARC in your 22" barrel will be less accurate in your 16" barrel.... That COULD be true. But Id be doing load workup from scratch on that 16" barrel with optimal powder and find what shoots best in that barrel just like any other barrel I reload for....

I appreciate the info. That’s definitely more information than had… a lot of people use leverlution… in 6ARC …had no idea about the burn rate and it’s lack there of..yikes!

I look closely at that graph that you sent. I appreciate it thank you.

 

[PappyM3]

I’ll be a bit pedantic here. Short barrels do not have any less short range (or mechanical) precision, simply from being shorter.

However, they absolutely can have less longer range precision or accuracy due to a couple factors.

1. Wind: shorter barrel means less velocity and less velocity means longer period of time the bullet will be subject to the wind. Unless you have a perfect wind call, then the bullet from the shorter barrel will drift further. It likely won’t be much of a difference, but it will be a difference of a greater horizontal dispersion.

2. Standard deviation: substantially shorter barrels frequently have a greater SD of muzzle velocities. The longer the barrel, the more smoothing of pressure curve averages due to irregularities with powder burns. At closer ranges, there won’t be much of any measurable difference. But at longer ranges, this results in greater vertical dispersion.

But the stuff Kocher said is not founded in reality.

Edit: I’m a shorty barrel guy though, unless it’s a competition gun.

 

[padom]

I’ll be a bit pedantic here. Short barrels do not have any less short range precision, simply from being shorter.

However, they absolutely can have less longer range precision or accuracy due to a couple factors.

1. Wind: shorter barrel means less velocity and less velocity means longer period of time the bullet will be subject to the wind. Unless you have a perfect wind call, then the bullet from the shorter barrel will drift further. It likely won’t be much of a difference, but it will be a difference of a greater horizontal dispersion.

2. Standard deviation: substantially shorter barrels frequently have a greater SD of muzzle velocities. The longer the barrel, the more smoothing of pressure curve averages due to irregularities with powder burns. At closer ranges, there won’t be much of any measurable difference. But at longer ranges, this results in greater vertical dispersion.

But the stuff Kosher said is not founded in reality.

1. Of course lower muzzle velocity is going to have more wind drift. This has nothing to do with the barrel accuracy. This has to do with velocity and drop/drift

2. Shorter barrels do not have higher SD's... again, this goes back to my statement of..."use the right powder for your barrel/bullet combo"

How many recorded data points along with pictures of short barrels all under 16" would you like me to pull from my database and post up of 0.5moa or better accuracy and single digit SD's?

If your using the wrong powder in a short barreled rifle from the start, your gonna have problems from the start

 

[PappyM3]

1. Of course lower muzzle velocity is going to have more wind drift. This has nothing to do with the barrel accuracy. This has to do with velocity and drop/drift

2. Shorter barrels do not have higher SD's... again, this goes back to my statement of..."use the right powder for your barrel/bullet combo"

How many recorded data points along with pictures of short barrels all under 16" would you like me to pull from my database and post up of 0.5moa or better accuracy and single digit SD's?

If your using the wrong powder in a short barreled rifle from the start, your gonna have problems from the start

1. I already said that short barrels do not affect the mechanical precision. But a barrel being shorter and resulting in lower velocity and greater horizontal dispersion at range ABSOLUTELY is a factor to consider for the FUNCTIONAL use of a shorter barrel rifle.

2. No. Of course powder selection is important. One should test different powders when developing a load. But the fact remains that ALL powders have irregularities in their burn rates for any given shot. And these irregularities have a larger effect on bullets from shorter barrels. With good powder selection, sure this is going to be negligible. However, lots of people only shoot factory loads.

 

[db2000]

i'm testing out this next gen EC tuner on my Cobalt Kinetics 6 arc

Put a 1 in front of that 2 and report back

 

[db2000]

Goy back out today to test 85 SMK and AR Comp higher. Shitty shooting conditions today. 65F, windy and pouring. I still went as I was testing for velocity but it still printed good groups for the conditions around 0.5moa...

27.7gr seems to be just about perfect. 2895, SD5 and half moa 5 shot group in shitty conditions.



Also, I reshot 2 charge weights from my AR Comp range session last week. 26.5gr and 27.1gr. Last week I shot in 88F and today I shot in 65F. So 33 degrees cooler and within 8fps of last session. That's the temp stability I'm looking for.


I also shot some higher charges of 87VMAX and AR MP540.

Accuracy and SD's continued to be good but velocity just isn't there. Ran into compressed charges so this powder seems to be a no go for fast 80's unless you want to shoot in the 2700's. It's stupid accurate though.

That’s the 85 Sierra game king I presume.
Only getting 2980 without pressure signs with 32 of LVR and 87 VMAX. 18” barrel though. Like the idea and AR Comp and less temp sensitive!

 

[padom]

That’s the 85 Sierra game king I presume.
Only getting 2980 without pressure signs with 32 of LVR and 87 VMAX. 18” barrel though. Like the idea and AR Comp and less temp sensitive!

Yep, 85 HPBT Gameking #1530..I mistyped that..

After doing some research and running QL numbers, I truly believe we aren't seeing normal pressure signs with 6 ARC and certain loads/powders is because of the case design and quality of brass. I didn't have a single flat primer, popped primer, not a mark on my case heads, no ejector swipe, nothing. But my highest charge of CFE223 broke my buffer stop. Snapped it right off. Ive never had that happen before. By QL and reloading data, that load is well over the 51,999psi 6 ARC published SAAMI pressure max....

Running your 32gr Lever load in QL with 87 VMAX, that's 61,000psi or just over 9000psi over SAAMI max pressure and its not temp stable..

Thats why I went to AR Comp. Once I started shooting AR Comp based off QL powder recommendation chart, I instantly noticed the considerably less felt recoil vs my CFE223 loads. Recoil impulse is so much smoother, more of a push and less snappy. And no pressure, good velocity, great accuracy and temp stable powder.

 

[db2000]

Yep, 85 HPBT Gameking #1530..I mistyped that..

After doing some research and running QL numbers, I truly believe we aren't seeing normal pressure signs with 6 ARC and certain loads/powders is because of the case design and quality of brass. I didn't have a single flat primer, popped primer, not a mark on my case heads, no ejector swipe, nothing. But my highest charge of CFE223 broke my buffer stop. Snapped it right off. Ive never had that happen before. By QL and reloading data, that load is well over the 51,999psi 6 ARC published SAAMI pressure max....

Running your 32gr Lever load in QL with 87 VMAX, that's 61,000psi or just over 9000psi over SAAMI max pressure and its not temp stable..

Thats why I went to AR Comp. Once I started shooting AR Comp based off QL powder recommendation chart, I instantly noticed the considerably less felt recoil vs my CFE223 loads. Recoil impulse is so much smoother, more of a push and less snappy. And no pressure, good velocity, great accuracy and temp stable powder.

I’m with you. Now I do get a faint pressure circle from ejector, so I shouldn’t say “no pressure”. I call it mild in my records. I’ve had brass knick up you can palpate with a fingernail. That’s before primer blow. I’ve found it’s not worth pushing it for an extra 50-75 fps. Accuracy rarely is great at those pressures. VMAX do seem to like the speed though! I think hence the name

 

[Capri_Man]

Padom, I have a stash of VV N120. If you run that through QL for the 75gr Vmax on a 24" AR what do ya get?

Also on a side note Padom, what dies are you using?

 

[padom]

Padom, I have a stash of VV N120. If you run that through QL for the 75gr Vmax on a 24" AR what do ya get?

I'll run it for you.

 

[padom]

Also on a side note Padom, what dies are you using?

Im running an L.E. Wilson SS FL Bushing sizing die squeezing necks down 0.004 under loaded diamater then opening back up with a 21st century mandrel for 0.0025 neck tension..

L.E. Wilson 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge (6mm ARC) Bushing Full Length

The L.E. Wilson Bushing Type Full Length Sizing Die. This die will allow you to size the case neck to your desired neck tension along with sizing down...

www.midwayusa.com

Im using a Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die

 

[padom]

Here you go.. max 6 ARC AR15 sammi pressure is 92% case fill and 100% burn

 

[Capri_Man]

The sizing process sounds like your dialed in on, but if that's two different dies it's not going to work on my dillon 550b. The seating die though might be a help. Does it give you any grief with the longer 108gr eld or elite hunter projectiles? I'm assuming this is it? https://battlehawkarmory.com/product/ultra-micrometer-seater-dies-5

Now the VV n120 looks like it might actually be viable in an AR and almost perfect for the bolt gun guys right? Does QL account for the case capacity lost by the projectile sitting in the case neck and below?

 

[padom]

The sizing process sounds like your dialed in on, but if that's two different dies it's not going to work on my dillon 550b. The seating die though might be a help. Does it give you any grief with the longer 108gr eld or elite hunter projectiles? I'm assuming this is it? https://battlehawkarmory.com/product/ultra-micrometer-seater-dies-5

Now the VV n120 looks like it might actually be viable in an AR and almost perfect for the bolt gun guys right? Does QL account for the case capacity lost by the projectile sitting in the case neck and below?

I do all my loading on a 550c.. I have a brass processing toolhead for every caliber with a sizing die and a mandrel die on every toolhead.

Seating die seats any bullet I put in it.

 

[padom]

Now the VV n120 looks like it might actually be viable in an AR and almost perfect for the bolt gun guys right? Does QL account for the case capacity lost by the projectile sitting in the case neck and below?

I like more case fill. 92% is on the low end.

Yes QL accounts for bullet I'm the case.. changing seating depth changes pressure.. I used hornady book COAL for 75 VMAX

 

[padom]

Yes that's the seater I use

 

[db2000]

I do all my loading on a 550c.. I have a brass processing toolhead for every caliber with a sizing die and a mandrel die on every toolhead.

Seating die seats any bullet I put in it.

I have a 550c but have only used it some for .45 auto. I mainly use a single stage. Do you use a V4 or similar for powder throws and manually fill the cases? Those are some low SD/ES.

 

[padom]

I have a 550c but have only used it some for .45 auto. I mainly use a single stage. Do you use a V4 or similar for powder throws and manually fill the cases? Those are some low SD/ES.

I run a FX120i /V3 Autothrow/Ingenuity Precision Trickler and fill cases off press and seat them on press for AR ammo and 6.5cm.. I load all my pistol on my XL650s except 5.56 and 9mm. I have 2 Dedicated 1050s for 5.56 and 9mm

My 223 bolt gun ammo, 6br, 22br, 22gt, 308win, 6.5x47L I seat with LE Wilson inline Micrometer dies with a K&M Arbor press.

I size all my precision ammo cases on my 550c with Dedicated sizing toolheads with LE Wilson or Redding FL bushing dies and 21st Century mandrel die. I always size 0.004 under loaded neck with a bushing and open back up 0.002 to give final 0.002 neck tension and super straight ammo with virtually no runout

 

[Kocher]

What do you all use for a mandrel to open it up the case mouth after using the neck bushing?

My issue is I was using the k&S mandrel (same one I used to set correct neck tension for turning necks

It would randomly contact the lip of the case crushing and ruining the neck/lip it if things weren’t perfect in Dillan 650 xl or on my now replaced Lyman turret press, when you come up for the upstroke.

I’m aware of some of the different brands, but I did not want to go buy a $340 die set up from SAC. All the other ones I looked into I think it bullet Central and a other brand, but most of those in the caliber I wanted were out of stock , and their caliber/cartridge specific.. I just wanted a die holder that I can change the different arbors and doesn’t fuck up the casemouth.

I am now buying the inserts for all my major cartridges to use the Zero Die. I switch out the insert kit for cartridge I am reloading for, 1-stroke and all done. Yes it does change settings when switching the insert, but it seems like you have to change that anyway depending on if you anneal every time, as the brass hardens, so doesn’t become more difficult to get the same shoulder bump with the same depth of the die.

Would a Wilson or Sinclair work on these single and progressive presses without damaging the cases.

 

[padom]

I've been using 21st Century mandrel for 10+ years. I run them on every caliber on my 550c, both my XL650's and both my 1050's including my fully automated 1050.

I've never had a crushed neck. That's a press setup, alignment, shellplate issue if your crushing necks with a mandrel

 

[Kocher]

Looks like Craddock is sending something to me after I sent my barrel in for a check up.
It was only there a few days so these guys are pretty great.

One of the gunsmithss showed me how when putting a barrel on these AR if you don’t hold the upper receiver and the barrel lugs as one unit ( easy button is to use a barrel spud, but they’re not cheap ) it’s possible when turning on the barrel nut and torquing down, you will put tremendous force on the barrel pin, which could break the barrel locating pin or even possibly twist it, and also causing the barrel to unscrew from the barrel extension, therefore changing the headspace and other alignment issues.

Most people use either a wheeler barrel lug holder or an upper receiver holder.

The best way is to have something a combination of both, or throw those away and do it the right way, and use a barrel spud.

I’m guessing someone else will say they’ve done it with an upper receiver plastic holder or something else or other every time and it
never caused issues, and I’m a lunatic for even suggesting this.


Lunacy

 

[357Max]

Looks like Craddock is sending something to me after I sent my barrel in for a check up.
It was only there a few days so these guys are pretty great.

One of the gunsmithss showed me how when putting a barrel on these AR if you don’t hold the upper receiver and the barrel lugs as one unit ( easy button is to use a barrel spud, but they’re not cheap ) it’s possible when turning on the barrel nut and torquing down, you will put tremendous force on the barrel pin, which could break the barrel locating pin or even possibly twist it, and also causing the barrel to unscrew from the barrel extension, therefore changing the headspace and other alignment issues.

Most people use either a wheeler barrel lug holder or an upper receiver holder.

The best way is to have something a combination of both, or throw those away and do it the right way, and use a barrel spud.

I’m guessing someone else will say they’ve done it with an upper receiver plastic holder or something else or other every time and it
never caused issues, and I’m a lunatic for even suggesting this.


Lunacy

This is what I use. Best IMO.

 

[Bantam1]

I use the same. Zero issues even breaking loose a stupid tight barrel nut that was way over torqued.

 

[Kocher]

I've been using 21st Century mandrel for 10+ years. I run them on every caliber on my 550c, both my XL650's and both my 1050's including my fully automated 1050.

I've never had a crushed neck. That's a press setup, alignment, shellplate issue if your crushing necks with a mandrel

interesting good to know

Dylan 650 XL, there’s always a slight lean of the case towards middle on station#1. So that the case will always be a little off when coming in contact with the die. On stn#1.

No matter what Die or head combination or what cartridge( rifle or pistol ) it has always been off…

I just figured that Dylan’s were shitty like this . It’s always been this way since day one so maybe I got jacked up machine.

Will post in the “reloading” section my results…

 

[Kocher]

Nice .. didn’t know Midwest made one

I use the same. Zero issues even breaking loose a stupid tight barrel nut that was way over torqued.

 

[Kocher]

This one also works pretty well

 

[Kocher]

Judging by most of these are all sold out I’m sure some of the other companies will get wise to it and start making them as well… if the ports from China close down, then they’ll have to be made stateside as the China cheap labor, products will not be able to be brought in.

my eyes were wide-open after I saw what a barrel goes through and how quickly things can get all misaligned.. and all fudded up..

 

[padom]

These are as good as it gets for building AR uppers. I have hundreds of builds on mine

GEISSELE AUTOMATICS LLC AR-15/M16 REACTION ROD | Brownells

Check out the GEISSELE AUTOMATICS LLC available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Barrel Tools products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

 

[Kocher]

These are as good as it gets for building AR uppers. I have hundreds of builds on mine

GEISSELE AUTOMATICS LLC AR-15/M16 REACTION ROD | Brownells

Check out the GEISSELE AUTOMATICS LLC available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Barrel Tools products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

Wow, hundreds of builds!

I was worried that my barrel pin and the barrel lug/extension turned during the install, causing head space issue. As I used a wheeler version of the G Ro=no fin to support the upper receiver like the other barrel spuds due.. on prev builds..

I have since changed to a hybrid - upper reciever in vice and g-rod. Didn’t have the coin then to purchase a barrel spud (extentsion and receiver support) as it would be 300$ approx to have 1- for small and 1-for large frame. …
I have not seen a spud for the large frame