Agree.... Staying within the functional limitations of matter for both man and machine
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new cartridge development
- Thread starter badassgunworks
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Agree.... Staying within the functional limitations of matter for both man and machine
Part of the problem with the Ack was case fill and powder location. Reduced charges and powder in the forward portion of the case. I was there when Brandon and Mike McNeil had problems in VA. Results were Mike operated the bolt to quickly and got a the bolt in his shoulder. Poor decision making all along the way.
Have quite a few of those as well... Have been very solid performers too
back when federal 215 was no where to be found I moved to the Winchester and never looked back at that time federal was having some real quality control issues as well primers .22 lr ammo , cartridge cases , all there loaded ammo sucked . 5 cases of gold metal match ammo 308 I bought had a .040 variance in seating debth and case head was .004 larger in diameter at the webb new ammo would not even chamber. was running the full bore chamber.Had to run 5000 of brand new cases threw a small base die and re run all of them threw a seating die to solve the problem federal denied it and refused to take care of the problem. But later admitted to quality issues when we canceled the 100 case order from federal for local law enforcement
its just as unsafe running low case fill vrs a over charge . in almost all cases delaid ignition is a to low of a %
@badassgunworks You kind of lost me with understanding the cartridges you and Swamplord have going (ex-nihilo based cartridges, etc.). My apologies for not being more familiar with your stuff, but I think I found what I was looking for over at LRH. I'll try to get up to speed and familiarize myself. Thanks.
No problem we have 4 new cylinder cartridges the ex-nihilo, Nemeisi, Exicutioner and Azrael Not based on any known cartridges . New designs . No parents cartridges. They are the parents .
D
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So are you gonna release the reamer specs to the public, or is everything gonna be proprietary? I hate the idea of having to depend on a single shop for barreling. I want to be able to buy a reamer and gauges and have it chambered locally.
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no the Allen mag I think is based off the cheytac case the mercenary is based off the nyatti express cylinder the cheytac is .637 od the mercenary is .660 od
some of the stuff will be proprietary some will be released the 420 blitzkrieg will remain Proprietary for some time the other cartridges based of the cylinder Ex-nihilo like the 375 mars 408 enforcer 416 Destroyer 420 enforcer require a specialized action from pierce Engerneering so might as well have him do the chamber and when he makes the action for you the ex-nihiol based cartridges will only work in our action. the others based on the nemesis and executioner will be open to the public reamers will be available they work on standard cheytac and lapua based actions. the exnihiol based cartridges will be available but are military designed and based applications dies and brass will be available
the other thing to consider lots of local gunsmiths in your area might not be able to chamber 2" diameter 40" long barrels that are used for the ex-nihilo based cartridges
Hi,
Other action and rifle manufacturers will follow suit as long as brass is available ?.
It is just time for things like pressure threshold/limits to advance just as projectile designs and understandings have advanced.
It is time case manufacturing progresses to a point where we can get new cartridge designs made without accepting we have to use an existing parent case or some 10k qty minimum order.
Sincerely,
Theis
Other action and rifle manufacturers will follow suit as long as brass is available ?.
It is just time for things like pressure threshold/limits to advance just as projectile designs and understandings have advanced.
It is time case manufacturing progresses to a point where we can get new cartridge designs made without accepting we have to use an existing parent case or some 10k qty minimum order.
Sincerely,
Theis
Those who have desires to go beyond what the industry has to offer will find ways. The industry follows the trend of sales. Very few manufacturing companies will stick there neck out to design what will not sale to the masses . Those are the very companies that will find them self behind the 8 ball . The sad part is companies like Hornady and Nosler try but have to use marketing to get people to swallow sales. When was the last time a true new cartridge was introduces to the industry perhaps the fn 5.7x28 is the last one I can think of
Hi,
I agree that for majority of time the manufacturing companies follow trend of sales but there are a few that understand the "If you build it they will come" philosophy.
Advancement has and will probably always come with a risk, but mitigating that risk with a vision that can be explained and understood to the masses is part of the advancement process. Along with the knowledge to see past the status quo
.
If the vision of/for the advancement cannot be explained then it does not matter how good the advancement is...it sinks.
Sincerely,
Theis
I agree that for majority of time the manufacturing companies follow trend of sales but there are a few that understand the "If you build it they will come" philosophy.
Advancement has and will probably always come with a risk, but mitigating that risk with a vision that can be explained and understood to the masses is part of the advancement process. Along with the knowledge to see past the status quo
.If the vision of/for the advancement cannot be explained then it does not matter how good the advancement is...it sinks.
Sincerely,
Theis
agreedHi,
I agree that for majority of time the manufacturing companies follow trend of sales but there are a few that understand the "If you build it they will come" philosophy.
Advancement has and will probably always come with a risk, but mitigating that risk with a vision that can be explained and understood to the masses is part of the advancement process. Along with the knowledge to see past the status quo
If the vision of/for the advancement cannot be explained then it does not matter how good the advancement is...it sinks.
Sincerely,
Theis
Interested to find out more about the 300 LRC... seems to be based upon a shortened 338 Lapua case... What kind powder loads / velocities are you seeing there? I suppose a bit more spunk than the 300 WSM?
![IMG_0114[1].JPG](/shooting/data/attachments/182/182800-b033de74d2eb634bebd668925e0153c3.jpg)
the 565 grain bullet bc is conservative will most likely be higher at the velocity we will be running it could be as high as 1.200 g1 and a g7 as high as .615 here is a photo next to a 338 lapua improved and another photo of the actions
Attachments
![IMG_0115[1].JPG](/shooting/data/attachments/185/185784-8bb89104520bddf2e969375cd44973ae.jpg)
![IMG_0116[1].JPG](/shooting/data/attachments/185/185863-9bd0be4074d7f078c2982042f68b33c0.jpg)
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Actually that cartridge was from Vigilance and the last time that webpage was up was in very late 2013. Vigilance is run by the son of the now-passed owner of EDM.
Hi,
Yep and they would only build it on the EDM Windrunner rifle.... "Due to pressures, it requires the strongest action available"
Sincerely,
Theis
Seems no one directly picked up your question.
The cases discussed use large rifle magnum primers (standard for 338 LM and CT-based cartridges).
Advanced ignition "systems" (I suspect) are all on the mil side (I know of none on the commercial side) - there are already quite adequate primers for all the cartridges I have seen discussed in this thread.
Electronic primer systems were tried by Remington many years ago and never took hold (their ammo and rifles). There are electronic primers for 20mm Vulcan-based cartridges - that topic well beyond the scope of this thread.
Hi,
The electronic primer systems did not catch on back with Remington because it does not do anything in relation to improving the actual propellant ignition.
It is merely just the way the primer is "ignited" which still has the charge in it.
Nothing changes in regards to firing sequence once the primer is set off. The only change is how the primer is set off.
Electronic ignition works in the big 20s and 30s but it is more for a safety issue than ignition issue. They get to basically flip a circuit breaker in the big 20s/30s to render the weapon safe.
Electronic ignition also kills the firing sequence of the big 20s/30s rotary cannons so that once you let off the trigger there are no additional rounds fired even though the weapon is still in rotation cycle.
Sincerely,
Theis
The electronic primer systems did not catch on back with Remington because it does not do anything in relation to improving the actual propellant ignition.
It is merely just the way the primer is "ignited" which still has the charge in it.
Nothing changes in regards to firing sequence once the primer is set off. The only change is how the primer is set off.
Electronic ignition works in the big 20s and 30s but it is more for a safety issue than ignition issue. They get to basically flip a circuit breaker in the big 20s/30s to render the weapon safe.
Electronic ignition also kills the firing sequence of the big 20s/30s rotary cannons so that once you let off the trigger there are no additional rounds fired even though the weapon is still in rotation cycle.
Sincerely,
Theis
bullet stuffed in the blitz case .
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Hi,
Awaiting the performance details of this, along with the other "Nemesis" & "Executioner" cased cartridges
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Awaiting the performance details of this, along with the other "Nemesis" & "Executioner" cased cartridges
Sincerely,
Theis
just talked to the brass mfg today, going forth with producing brass for the 400 Warlord, 375 Mercenary and 300 LRC and as you have seen, the 420 Blitzkrieg is already happening, next up are the 375 Executioner based wildcats, the 300 Werewolf and 338 Wolverine are a pair of wild beasts and the 8mm Vampyre will join them soon ....
more info on my FB page , Precision Rifled Ordnance
https://facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1154798914695763&id=676994269142899
I finally found and took the time to read through the entire thread, word by work. Mark – please tell us more about the proprietary 420 Blitzkrieg, the top of your currently-discussed food chain. Looking at the one pic Pro posted next to a .50 BMG, post #16, I’m seeing a much less substantial rim and extractor groove compared to the BMG, and a case capacity probably shy of the BMG. Loading a case up to 80k psi can be done with most large rifle cases (in fact most cases)…just use a powder much faster than is reasonably prudent. The “today” 80k scenario means broken parts and quite possible an injured shooter…followed by possible litigation (for not protecting the shooter from doing something very “wrong”). So, beyond the cartridge design, please tell us more about the infrastructure – case structural design and material, action structural design and material, and barrel design and material – that will support 80k. BTW, now that you “defined” an environment where barrel life is not a key factor (post #32), those wanting a more robust cartridge/cartridge case need look no further than RCC, who will build you your heart’s desire in the size, wall thickness, and web/case head design of your choosing. And eliminating the ejector/ejector hole is common (standard?) practice in benchmarking, so that’s almost a given. Please share what you will about the 420 Blitzkrieg but, most importantly, what, specifically and explicitly, will take ELR (now unlimited range/UR) to the next level. Thanks.
well to answer some of your questions yes most small and large rifle primer cases can be loaded up to or close to 80,000 psi but there is a huge issue with doing that considering that most powders on the market detonate causing injury and action falure. so to run above 80k you must use the proper powders that does not pressure detonate causing a spike that will cause problems. 2nd of all the case must be designed for running way above 80k for margins of safety. and 3rd the action must be designed to function way above 80 k so that nothing causes problems. 4th the chamber must be designed to also run at higher pressures to avoid extraction issues and bolt lift issues. we have 4 different manufactured cases some from c464 some from no lead c464 some from no lead c260 and some no lead c26o hammer forged 2 different designs internals while all the cases share the same exterior spects. yes one of those cases is made from Rcc and I am hopping that there brass works great cause I am not interested in making any more brass myself its way to much work. and more expensive then the cases we had made from Rcc. the rcc brass was made per our internal designs. and its not like any cartridge on the market. the cartridge is designed to run at higher pressures thus allowing for a larger variation of powder burn rate use considering the fact that its more underbore then the 416 and 408 calibers we will be using vv570 and the new vv568 when you can run higher pressures case fill no longer becomes a problem we choose and designed the case to use large volumes of faster powders producing extreme velocities . no need to use super slow powders in the bmg range though they can be used is desired. barrels we are running are large tennon 2" shank barrels 40" long barrel life is not of concern I will have at all times 4 barrels chambers as needed to swap out.. As far as how it will change the elr world ????? if you don't think pushing a 565 grain bullet with a 1.200 plus bc bullet between 3500 and 3700 fps will make a difference ??? the velocity range is based off not knowing what the accuracy and sd node will be. As we have not finished our testing. That's about all I am willing to give you for now. I hope I give you some information you were wanting. Remember you cant force you way into knowledge or respect unless one is willing to give it. p.s. the bmg is a worthless low pressure case that is 125 years old and was never designed to operate above 55,000 psi nor was it designed for accuracy the 50 bmg suffers from a 3 way circle jerk problem pressure limits .extraction issues and bolt thrust issues any thing you do to try to fix any of the problem only makes one of the other problems worse. you can't compare the 420 Blitz to the bmg or barret case.
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Mark - thanks for the additional share, especially the velocity range (not in this thread up to now). BTW, my "comparison" to the BMG case was simply so folks could consider them side by side for sizing (Pro's other 2 photos showed only lower caliber cases for comparison). What about the action you will be using - possibly you just inadvertently skipped over it - a Pierce 2.0", long version, or larger ? [THEIS was working with a guy from New Zealand who has an action tenon of about 3" in length for his BMG-class action - http://www.statusguns.com/status_50BMG.htm] Thanks again.
the new pierce 2" action was design for the blitzkrieg it will 2nd as a 50 action if guys want to use it for that . We will along with John pierce be marketing the 375 mars 408 enforcer 416 destroyer all based off the Ex-nihilo cylinder brass . The same parent that the blitzkrieg comes from .The actionwas designed in its operation as a cambed lug system to handle high pressures to function at 90,000psi sustained pressures with no bolt lift issues it has more primary extraction then any other large action made the tenon and lugs are also longer then other 2" actions on the market the bolt handle is 4" long for more leverage for the lug design. this action is only made as a single shot we are working on a repeater but changes will be made in that model as for the spcets of the ex-nihilo based case its case head rim diameter and undercut was designed to reduce bolt thrust along with column design to get around the issues that the bmg case has. this cartridge was designed and developed to handle pressures up to 125,000 psi at 5 cycles. only time will tell what end results will be but it was designed as overkill levels so that it could safely be run at up to 85,000 psi having the ability to run high pressures is what allows cleaner burning better ignition and a higher case fill all key aspects in performance with todays available powders . guys always seem to think we need slower powders when that not true we need the ability to run higher pressures so we can use the powder we have. Cartridges advancement has been at a stand still in mega volume cases guys run into pressure signs and still suffer from ignition problems but the problems are from the lack of case fill . not too much powder . This industry has functioned on stagnant false ideas and ignorance way to long . ideas like powder bridging and ignition problems from too much powder is just crazy talk . as for the action theis is talking about i am not sure about that one a 3" long tenon I don't see as needed you must remember the tenon is smaller then the shank in diameter and most of your longer larger cartridges less the 1/2 of the cartridge is in the tenon the other half is in the shank this is also why I tight hand lapped tenon is critical on running high pressures . its also one of the reasons I hate the savage style nut shanks
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Hi,
Just FYI---things have long ago changed in regards to the receiver Oscar mentioned.
Sincerely,
Theis
Just FYI---things have long ago changed in regards to the receiver Oscar mentioned.
Sincerely,
Theis
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It is called a BB gun... At the higher end, called a light gas gun and uses hydrogen compressed by a powder charge to fire a hypervelocity projectile at around 20,000 fps. Essentially a 40mm initial cartridge with a 5mm projectile. These teach us some interesting things about internal ballistics for sure. One of them being that velocity is what kills barrel rifling even with low temperatures of the gas flow. These are fired in vacuum chambers so they teach us nothing about exterior ballistics On the terminal ballistics side this teach us that hyper velocity impacts are only ever 1 caliber deep and 95% of the time produce round craters regardless of impact angle.
So there are a few things to consider here. First is that at the top end of current pressures (70k), you are getting close to flowing the brass of the case head and once you are there you are looking at hammer time to open the bolt and a case life of 1 shot. So maybe going to a steel case gets you a bit further but then you get pretty close to the yield strength of barrel steel and exceeding that is bad in plenty of exciting ways.
Next, MV and barrel life are strongly related. If you want 4k then be prepared for a 100 round usable barrel life. Going back to the light gas gun, you start to get into energies where the gas flow, regardless of temperature, will just peal bits of steel off. See 338/50 Talbot for a case study lol
-Alex
Hi,
@Sandow the Heretic
That 70k pressure threshold that has been the choke hold of advancements is easier to break than people want to believe. To get past that pressure cap you must start with new cartridge design AND modern case manufacturing, not the cup/draw method and not attempting to "improve" a pre-existing cartridge design.
IF you are needing a hammer to open the bolt with high pressure cartridges then that is a function fault of the action/bolt design just as much, if not more than pressures fault.
And luckily for the shooting world....projectile designs and alloy understanding/usage has improved by leaps and bounds from when Skip was running the 338Talbot.
Along with advancements in rifling profile understandings (well not really in understanding per say but more in that barrel manufacturers are open to customization to match intended projectile design) in relation to utilization of monolithics.
Along with advancements in projectile coatings and barrel treatments.
@badassgunworks
The entire receiver has changed, lol. The BMG sized receiver is still being tested in Finland and Abu Dhabi to ensure the design functions as the smaller receivers in terms of harsh environments.
Sincerely,
Theis
@Sandow the Heretic
That 70k pressure threshold that has been the choke hold of advancements is easier to break than people want to believe. To get past that pressure cap you must start with new cartridge design AND modern case manufacturing, not the cup/draw method and not attempting to "improve" a pre-existing cartridge design.
IF you are needing a hammer to open the bolt with high pressure cartridges then that is a function fault of the action/bolt design just as much, if not more than pressures fault.
And luckily for the shooting world....projectile designs and alloy understanding/usage has improved by leaps and bounds from when Skip was running the 338Talbot.
Along with advancements in rifling profile understandings (well not really in understanding per say but more in that barrel manufacturers are open to customization to match intended projectile design) in relation to utilization of monolithics.
Along with advancements in projectile coatings and barrel treatments.
@badassgunworks
The entire receiver has changed, lol. The BMG sized receiver is still being tested in Finland and Abu Dhabi to ensure the design functions as the smaller receivers in terms of harsh environments.
Sincerely,
Theis
From my understanding it's actually pressure is what's killing rifling, technically speaking. Although pressure typically equates to MV. This is why I'm always in search of the nice flat valley up on the muzzle velocity mountain in terms of chronograph data. This is where case design and efficiency becomes a player.
"hyper velocity impacts are only ever 1 caliber deep and 95% of the time produce round craters regardless of impact angle."
-- please explain terms of a real world applications. This appears to be stated in a negative connotation. Whereas, in terms of terminal performance I would theorize this would be an advantage due to hydrostatic shock, unless you are implying ease of spotting at distance...?
"light gas gun and uses hydrogen compressed by a powder charge to fire a hypervelocity projectile at around 20,000 fps."
Where could I find more information on this?
Look up the guns of nasa. There was also an article in one of the nra magazines years ago. 90's or early 2000's. Borrowed them from a family friend.
First, hydrostatic shock isn't a thing outside of marketing.
Next, you are thinking in terms of the energies and the velocities we are used to where a projectile deforms and causes a cavity. You've seen what a varmint bullet does right? Goes in a is turned into little bits of lead. That is the difference between bullet construction and maybe 1000 fps difference. at 20k fps and above the projectiles act more like little bombs regardless of what they are made of. The yield strength of any material is grossly exceeded and your bullet is now a pocket of plasma.
Scott Manley does a decent job of explaining it with some cool visuals
-Alex
i am glad to see that some one else does no live in a world of dought and fear based on ignorance of some past failures not based on taking in to consideration all the variables and technology. fear and ignorance is what hinders our advancements
Pressure is what creates heat ( expanding gasses ) movement of molecules at a extreme rate pressure is what produces velocity. friction of the solid gas flow and the solid bullet gas flow compounded by surface temps from heat and expansion and contraction is what kills barrel life that's what its call erosion.
yield strength is a issue proper alloys and proper chamber design displacing pressures and compound structure design is a must yield in it self is not much of a factor if yield was a constant then battle ships could be paper thin. proper design of action, bolt, brass and chamber is critical.
,
10-4. I re-read your previous post and I misinterpreted it thinking you were implying issues with running velocities that high and terminal results.
