Rifle Scopes New High End Tactical article

[viking78]

This is the scope I have the most interest in personally. Tangent is beautiful but I like what the Steiner offers with regards to overall size and magnification range. Not to mention more competitive pricing.

This has by far the best image quality i have seen.
But this one has the G2B reticle, which is not ideal, there has more better for the choose, like MSR, MSR2 what i think is the best reticle ever.
Also Tremor T3 is available, that´s not bad either.
I wish i had that camera adapter for the scope, that image quality is just awesome in this scope.

 

[charnicus]

This has by far the best image quality i have seen.
But this one has the G2B reticle, which is not ideal, there has more better for the choose, like MSR, MSR2 what i think is the best reticle ever.
Also Tremor T3 is available, that´s not bad either.
I wish i had that camera adapter for the scope, that image quality is just awesome in this scope.

I really did the MSR2 reticle. I want to greatly improve on my mil ranging and that reticle seems extremely conducive to that while not being too busy.

 

[koshkin]

If I were looking at a M7Xi, I would definitely be going for MSR2, although G2B is workable. Tremor3 is... well, by now everyone knows what I think of this abomination.

ILya

 

[charnicus]

If I were looking at a M7Xi, I would definitely be going for MSR2, although G2B is workable. Tremor3 is... well, by now everyone knows what I think of this abomination.

ILya

Look forward to what you have to say about the scope good or bad once received.

 

[thexman]

Just for my curiosity, any information on where the glass for each brand/scope are coming from or supplied by?

 

[Jperk0278]

Just watched the video. Thanks Koshkin. Great stuff here.

 

[koshkin]

Look forward to what you have to say about the scope good or bad once received.

I have been messing with it for a few days. Mostly good. More CA than I would like to see, but very good otherwise.

ILya

 

[Kwmtnbiker]

Like I said, probably a topic for another thread, but real quick. My question is "why", why have a "zero stop" that doesn't actually "stop" at zero? Yes, I get that with different conditions your zero can change and many manufacture's put the extra in for "wiggle room" lets call it but instead of doing that, why not make a better zero stop design which can easily be adjusted, but maybe this is where the Tangent Theta's unique tool-less reset really comes into play, my March scopes also had a very easy zero stop feature that I really liked as well. Some scopes allow you to adjust exactly where you want the zero stop to stop, but others force this upon you and most zero stop configurations are a pain to deal with on the fly. Maybe it's more of a mental thing and I just need to wrap my mind around it better - if my Schmidt stops at .6 mil under, my ZP5 stops at .5 mil under and my Kahles stops at .4 mil under that's a jumbled mess in my brain, I don't want to have to remember if I'm shooting one rifle or the other, I want to know that when I dial down and the turret stops, that it stopped at zero and not have to think, "now that it stopped, how much do I have to dial back up to actually get to zero". Most of the time that I shoot I am not under stress and am able to confirm zero by simply looking at the turret, but I would prefer the zero stop to be easily set and easily changed, but to always stop on zero. Again, it could just be the way my brain works and I just need to get over it.

I’m not fortunate yet to jump into the realm of really awesome glass, but the zero stop on my sig tango 4 is set at .5 below for when I shoot unsuppressed. The zero lock on the sig tango 4 is great because it locks on my suppressed zero.

 

[beetroot]

How does the AMG and Gen 2 RZR compare with these heavy weights?

Reticle aside.

 

[Gil P.]

I have been messing with it for a few days. Mostly good. More CA than I would like to see, but very good otherwise.

ILya

The M7Xi has a lot if CA? Do you think it controls it better than the M5Xi?

 

[blbennett1288]

From Ilya's video it shows a lot of CA.

 

[koshkin]

The M7Xi has a lot if CA? Do you think it controls it better than the M5Xi?

If my recollection is correct, it controls CA at high magnification better than M5Xi and K624i. It has similar amount of CA to K525i, but without the tunneling and with better depth of field.

Generally, I spent the last couple of days carefully looking at the optical performance of M7Xi and will do a video on that shortly. The gist of it is that based on the model I have, above 15x, M7Xi slots somewhere just below S&B, but above Kahles largely due to CA. Below 15x, M7Xi is almost as good as TT, Minox and ZCO. There is no tunneling, CA is not an issue and the scope is easy to get behind.

The turrets are definite step up from M5Xi in terms of feel. The scope is easy to get behind and it does offer the broadest magnification range here, so it is a very viable option. There is a nice feel to the image through this scope. Reasonable texture, good contrast, decent distortion control.

ILya

 

[Long Range 338]

From Ilya's video it shows a lot of CA.

Where can we watch the video?

 

[blbennett1288]

Where can we watch the video?

 

[koshkin]

To add one more comment: with M7Xi, ZCO 5-27x56 and Leupold Mark 5, I have only seen one sample of each, so I do not know for sure how representative these are. There is always some sample variation.

That is unavoidable with new products. I will make conditional recommendations based on what I see with the scopes I have on hand, but then I will make an effort to re-visit these products over time as the opportunity presents, so that I can figure where the specific samples I have fall within the production range.

ILya

 

[Gil P.]

To add one more comment: with M7Xi, ZCO 5-27x56 and Leupold Mark 5, I have only seen one sample of each, so I do not know for sure how representative these are. There is always some sample variation.

That is unavoidable with new products. I will make conditional recommendations based on what I see with the scopes I have on hand, but then I will make an effort to re-visit these products over time as the opportunity presents, so that I can figure where the specific samples I have fall within the production range.

ILya

Km looking forward to your video. I'm wondering: is the eyebox much better on the M7Xi than its competitors? If it is better, are the other scopes' eyebox good enough that it wont make a difference?

 

[D_TROS]

I've tested March 5-40x before, so it is a known quantity. If their new PRS scope makes, I will definitely test it.

How do you like your M7Xi? Which reticle is in yours?

ILya

Have the MSR2. Like the retc a lot.

As to the scope, I must mimic you very closely. Some CA (seems to disappear at differing zoom zoom) eerily similar to Kahles K25 (did a side by side with my friends k25) but had an easier eye box and FOV was impressive. The resolution was very surprisingly good, much better than my old M5. It didn't come off as "bright" but when really looking, was able to look at leaves, flowers etc at 500 yards was better than the kahles. It is really starting to grow on me for sure.


GL
DT

 

[koshkin]

Km looking forward to your video. I'm wondering: is the eyebox much better on the M7Xi than its competitors? If it is better, are the other scopes' eyebox good enough that it wont make a difference?

Eye relief flexibility seems quite good. I do not think it is better than the competition, but definitely not worse. I need to do some shooting with it first to be certain. SO far it has been just the optical comparison.

ILya

 

[brianf]

I habitually distrust specs, so if I am looking for a scope to shoot at 25 yards, I will get one that is supposed to focus down to 20 or less.

With that in mind, I think it is down to S&B, Nightforce and March on the high end.

As you go a little bit down in price, options open up somewhat with Sightron SV among others.

ILya

I have a sb 5-45 and a March high 10-60 hm

Both are really great scopes. But the March focuses down to 8-10 meters if I remember.

If koshkin would want to take a look at the side by side I could send them both out,but the mag range is above what the tactical crowd uses...it’s not like they could turn them down to 20 if needed.

March maxed out with illumination on and the glow is the slightest bit off to the right/half the center dot if that matters

Might be my scope though, no diff t me.

Both are insanely clear at 35-40x

 

[LAW-DOG]

I wouldn’t worry too much about the pmii being an old design. It’s still one of the best. Scope technology, design, & ED glass hasn’t changed enough for new scopes to blow it away & the pmii design & glass is top quality. Top ED glass in the late 90s & early 2000s was 90-95 abbe which is an indication of how well your glass will control CA (abbe is not the only factor but it’s a big one) & that has not changed, the best glass today is still 90-95 abbe. I would guess the multi coatings haven’t changed much either. My uncle bought a kowa 88mm fluorite spotting scope in 2008 & it’s still the best optical performer imo. For comparison my uncles brother got an ATX 95mm swaro & it might have a little better edge distortion control & it’s a touch brighter but not in the day when it’s bright. The kowa has better CA control & looks better at high mag. The only thing we changed on the kowa was the 20-60x eyepiece to the 25-60x, if you have a kowa get that eyepiece it’s really good. The pmii, TT, & minox are so close in optical performance it’s hard to say which is better. I’ve been shooting with friends who have the TT & Minox for some time now & when I use my pmii & compare it’s difficult to say one is better than the other in optical performance with these alpha scopes. When I hear someone say one of these blows the other away I definitely disagree because there can be variation in quality, or maybe the ocular wasn’t dialed in properly, plus it takes a long time of evaluating side by side in different conditions, & of course fanboyism.

 

[thexman]

My 3-27x PM2 has zero tunnel and an awesome FOV

I saw some review mentioned the 3-27 scope had max magnification issue, it only goes up to 24x. Do you notice that issue?

 

[Glassaholic]

I saw some review mentioned the 3-27 scope had max magnification issue, it only goes up to 24x. Do you notice that issue?

This might be related to Cal Zant's article from a few years ago where the Hide basically ripped him a new one on his diopter setting.

 

[thexman]

This might be related to Cal Zant's article from a few years ago where the Hide basically ripped him a new one on his diopter setting.

Cool, so the 3-27 could be a good choice as it is kind of a new design from the 5-25 product line. Seems the price for the 5-45 is not that much difference to 3-27 if the setup would be used for ELR?

 

[LAW-DOG]

You're right i just thought it would be closer than it was. What brief time i've had with the K525i with two competitors of that selection (ZP5, PMII) i didn't notice much difference at intermittent magnification, but the comparison was extremely brief. At max it's very noticeable. Just kind of sucks and it's not to say that Kahles is a bad optic they've got every other feature i'd want in an optic. I adore the turrets, the parallax is ambidextrous, the reticle is great, and you can have the windage on either side. Seeing as they are charging premium with a new design that while fixes one short coming of the k624i (CA) but introduces many more compromises is just frustrating. Especially knowing their parent company (Swaro) produces some of the finest glass money can buy.

The used market is shot for them too, for those of us that paid retail or near it recouping 80% will be about tops it seems. It happens it's the nature of the game in advancing anything this day in age. I run the same risk with every GPU i buy this day in age just based on driver development. Bought Kepler six years ago and it's longevity has been absolute crap, meanwhile it's competitor Hawaii saw a 30% increase over that time in performance. We just all thought they would field something more comparable to TT. The K318i i still love but it's an ultra short so there are expected short comings. I understand the k525i is short for it's mag range but i'm perplexed as to why all those compromises were made. Pretty much as ILya noted in the video.

Anyone wants to trade for a ZP5 holler at me ?

After looking through kahles k624 & then looking through my swaro 10x50 el sv, I’m thinking this can’t be a swaro company. The optics on the 10x50 sv are amazing & has the wow factor. Kahles needs to collaborate with swaro & come out with a K525SV. If they put the EL SV SwaroVision optics into a K525 it will be the champ in optical performance.

 

[JB.IC]

I saw some review mentioned the 3-27 scope had max magnification issue, it only goes up to 24x. Do you notice that issue?

This is definitely not true for me. Like what was mentioned above, have the diopter set correctly.

 

[Burdy]

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/05/goodbye-aberration-physicist-solves-2000-year-old-optical-problem/

 

[JB.IC]

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/05/goodbye-aberration-physicist-solves-2000-year-old-optical-problem/

This also applies to shooting of any discipline:

‘Cheaper? probably not. Even though lenses will be cheaper to manufacture, remember that once somebody stamps the “made for photographers” sticker on a product, it is priced many times higher because of the “added value” to your artistry.’

 

[ChrisAU]

When will we get some of the 50mm comparisons?

 

[Bandit31]

Look forward to what you have to say about the scope good or bad once received.

I just got a M7XI today and am really digging it so far. Seems to be a very promising option.

 

[whatsupdoc]

So, what I have learned so far is that you can never go wrong with a S&B PMII 5x25 as old as it is.

 

[thexman]

So, what I have learned so far is that you can never go wrong with a S&B PMII 5x25 as old as it is.

Seems only the tunneling issue bothers me even not much chance would be needed for that magnification.

 

[koshkin]

When will we get some of the 50mm comparisons?

Some time this week. I am out of town, but gong back home tonight.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

So, what I have learned so far is that you can never go wrong with a S&B PMII 5x25 as old as it is.

That is not a bad conclusion.

 

[charnicus]

I just got a M7XI today and am really digging it so far. Seems to be a very promising option.

Did you go black or coyote? I’ve been on the fence between the two paired with a Foundation stock.

 

[Bandit31]

Did you go black or coyote? I’ve been on the fence between the two paired with a Foundation stock.

I went with the Black.

 

[charnicus]

I went with the Black.

Badass looking setup. Which reticle did you go with?

 

[Bandit31]

Badass looking setup. Which reticle did you go with?

MSR-2. I don’t really care for grid/ tree/ Horous reticles. The price was right with a mil discount through DSG Arms and Steiner has the cooler promo so I figured it was a decent incentive to try one out as I initially passed on them because they were released without locking turrets and wanted something other than another Nightforce.

 

[Glassaholic]

For those who are Mil/LE DSG Arm's has a killer deal on the M7Xi's in both black and Coyote (but the best deal is on the Coyote)

Page Not Found On DSG Arms | DSG ARMS

The page you requested on DSG Arms was not found and may have been removed from our site listing.

dsgarms.com

Military, Government, and First Responder Agency Program | DSG ARMS

DSG ARMS has 25 years of experience servicing first responders, the military, and government agencies.

dsgarms.com

I usually only promote Hide dealers, but I have yet to see one who can match DSG's pricing, just wanting to share for those who might be interested in this scope. One final thought, most Hide dealers will "price match" if you can show what another dealer is offering so it doesn't hurt to contact them and see...

For those who are not Mil/LE please do not contact me asking how much; however, I do encourage you to contact a Hide Dealer and ask them what's the best they can do for you, I've found more often than not that the Hide Dealers can match and sometimes beat Mil/LE pricing so it's worth asking.

 

[Glassaholic]

MSR-2. I don’t really care for grid/ tree/ Horous reticles. The price was right with a mil discount through DSG Arms and Steiner has the cooler promo so I figured it was a decent incentive to try one out as I initially passed on them because they were released without locking turrets and wanted something other than another Nightforce.

Curious, what is the "cooler promo"?

 

[charnicus]

For those who are Mil/LE DSG Arm's has a killer deal on the M7Xi's in both black and Coyote (but the best deal is on the Coyote)

Page Not Found On DSG Arms | DSG ARMS

The page you requested on DSG Arms was not found and may have been removed from our site listing.

dsgarms.com

Military, Government, and First Responder Agency Program | DSG ARMS

DSG ARMS has 25 years of experience servicing first responders, the military, and government agencies.

dsgarms.com

I usually only promote Hide dealers, but I have yet to see one who can match DSG's pricing, just wanting to share for those who might be interested in this scope. One final thought, most Hide dealers will "price match" if you can show what another dealer is offering so it doesn't hurt to contact them and see...

For those who are not Mil/LE please do not contact me asking how much; however, I do encourage you to contact a Hide Dealer and ask them what's the best they can do for you, I've found more often than not that the Hide Dealers can match and sometimes beat Mil/LE pricing so it's worth asking.

Better than Guidefitter?

 

[Bandit31]

Curious, what is the "cooler promo"?

Some promo Steiner is having right now. Spend over $1k in Steiner products and send in the rebate form for a 20qt Grizzly cooler.

Being that I was about to buy a 20qt cooler, it worked out nice.

Edit: here is the link for interested parties https://www.steiner-optics.com/promotions/gear-hunting

 

[charnicus]

MSR-2. I don’t really care for grid/ tree/ Horous reticles. The price was right with a mil discount through DSG Arms and Steiner has the cooler promo so I figured it was a decent incentive to try one out as I initially passed on them because they were released without locking turrets and wanted something other than another Nightforce.

The MSR2 really looks to be an excellent reticle.

 

[Glassaholic]

Some promo Steiner is having right now. Spend over $1k in Steiner products and send in the rebate form for a 20qt Grizzly cooler.

Being that I was about to buy a 20qt cooler, it worked out nice.

Nice! https://www.steiner-optics.com/promotions

 

[Bandit31]

Better than Guidefitter?

0

I've never heard of that until now. If this one works out, I'll get number two off there.

 

[whatsupdoc]

@koshkin I have checked the tracking on a couple of my optics.
I measured the distance (100 yards) and put out a paper target that had one mil lines drawn on it, I found that when I looked at the target through the optic the mil lines drawn on the target and the corresponding hash marks on the reticle did not match exactly.

I would have to move the optic forward or rearward to get all the hash marks to align correctly. This was done with three different optics at the same time and each required a different distance to the target to get correct alignment.

Now the difference between the optics I tested was probably around 20" two had the same reticle.

Why is this? Manufacturing tolerances?

 

[koshkin]

@koshkin I have checked the tracking on a couple of my optics.
I measured the distance (100 yards) and put out a paper target that had one mil lines drawn on it, I found that when I looked at the target through the optic the mil lines drawn on the target and the corresponding hash marks on the reticle did not match exactly.

I would have to move the optic forward or rearward to get all the hash marks to align correctly. This was done with three different optics at the same time and each required a different distance to the target to get correct alignment.

Now the difference between the optics I tested was probably around 20" two had the same reticle.

Why is this? Manufacturing tolerances?

Without being there to see what you are doing it is very hard to tell. Plus, I do not know what scope you are looking at.

Sometimes, there are issues with scopes.

When dealing with SFP scopes, often, magnification is not calibrated well which will have this effect.

Most of the time, it is user error because inclination was not taken into account or distance was measured incorrectly or the target was sized wrong.

ILya

 

[ChrisAU]

Some time this week. I am out of town, but gong back home tonight.

ILya

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Glassaholic]

@koshkin I have checked the tracking on a couple of my optics.
I measured the distance (100 yards) and put out a paper target that had one mil lines drawn on it, I found that when I looked at the target through the optic the mil lines drawn on the target and the corresponding hash marks on the reticle did not match exactly.

I would have to move the optic forward or rearward to get all the hash marks to align correctly. This was done with three different optics at the same time and each required a different distance to the target to get correct alignment.

Now the difference between the optics I tested was probably around 20" two had the same reticle.

Why is this? Manufacturing tolerances?

1 mil at 100 yards is 3.6", did you draw your lines at exactly 3.6" apart? When you say you have to move the optic forward or rearward to get them to line up, how much movement are we talking about and by "lining up" are we talking slightly off to aligned or way off to aligned? Like ILya mentioned without having all the details it's difficult to know exactly what might be going on, but probably a topic that would be better off on its own thread instead of inside this one.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Just to be clear the optics were all FFP the target was drawn with 3.6" line spacing using a divider and a vernier caliper to confirm.
I measure 100 yards to the turret, I line up the reticle top 5 mill hash mark with the target but the bottom 5 mill hash mark is slightly off.

So what I am trying to convey is that 10 mil reticle hash mark spacing did not match the target 10 mill spacing, it was slightly off about half the thickness of the reticle hash mark, very little but off.

I move the optic back maybe 16" and now the reticle and the target hash marks match perfectly.

So I test the tracking and move to the next optic, now the second optics hash marks are not matching at he current distance from the target and needs to move forward to line up the hash marks. The third optic also requires a slight distance adjustment to match.

So it appears that the reticles have a small variation from optic to optic so measuring 100 yards from the target to the turret may need some adjusting, if the space between the hash marks does not match the space between the target hash marks then the tracking will not match.

Did this a while ago so I am this is all memory recall.

Does this make sense.

 

[beetroot]

1 mil at 100 yards is 3.6", did you draw your lines at exactly 3.6" apart? When you say you have to move the optic forward or rearward to get them to line up, how much movement are we talking about and by "lining up" are we talking slightly off to aligned or way off to aligned? Like ILya mentioned without having all the details it's difficult to know exactly what might be going on, but probably a topic that would be better off on its own thread instead of inside this one.

Who on earth measures a Mil reticle against a target drawn in inches at a distance measured in yards?
Why not draw lines at 100mm and place it at 100m?

I know you are achieving the exact same thing, but surely having a Mil scope you would take advantage of benefits that come along with using Mils?