This stuff is making my life so easy with reloading time constraints and the performance yay. I hope more people chime in and post negatively and discourage others from trying so i can find more in stock. Staball sucks btw!
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New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
Can’t remember if anyone tried it, but when looking at the Hodgdon data they list 77 and 80gr .223 loads.
Currently use 8208 for my 77gr TMK loads, but if Staball can kill that bird too...
So, anyone tried this stuff under a 77gr at AR mag length?
Currently use 8208 for my 77gr TMK loads, but if Staball can kill that bird too...
So, anyone tried this stuff under a 77gr at AR mag length?
Got out to run the larger batch past the LR and with a focus on getting groups.
Was getting 1.5” 4-7rd groups so I think I’m done with load dev and will start cranking out en masse when my 32lb order arrives.
21JAN2021
22” 6.5C AR-10 suppressed w/ SDN-6
130gr Berger AR Hybrid
Rem 7.5 SR primer
Virgin Starline brass FLR’d
StaBall 6.5 45.6gr
OAL 2.750”
21rd group
Lo: 2839
Hi: 2896
Avg: 2867
ES: 57
SD: 15.0
Was getting 1.5” 4-7rd groups so I think I’m done with load dev and will start cranking out en masse when my 32lb order arrives.
21JAN2021
22” 6.5C AR-10 suppressed w/ SDN-6
130gr Berger AR Hybrid
Rem 7.5 SR primer
Virgin Starline brass FLR’d
StaBall 6.5 45.6gr
OAL 2.750”
21rd group
Lo: 2839
Hi: 2896
Avg: 2867
ES: 57
SD: 15.0
Really? Hodgdons website has only a 4fps difference in velocity's compared to Varget for the 77SMK. Are you saying it's too slow because it won't get up to MK262 velocity, or because it wouldn't get up to published velocity? I was planning on loading some tomorrow but won't waste the effort and materials if it doesn't perform.
Thanks, that's a bigger drop off than their data would show Maybe I'll stick to a very limited ladder at first if I try it.
I use this in my .22 nosler bolt gun and my 7-08 pushing 162's.
I've been running mostly 80 grain bullets in the nosler. Hit 3100 fps in a 22" barrel with room to spare. Tried the 88 eldm and couldn't get the accuracy I wanted, was easily hitting 3000 with those.
I've been running mostly 80 grain bullets in the nosler. Hit 3100 fps in a 22" barrel with room to spare. Tried the 88 eldm and couldn't get the accuracy I wanted, was easily hitting 3000 with those.
Yeah they are taking the opportunity to increase prices on high demand powder by ~25%. 4350 went up as well.
Shit thats cheap.
Try paying $350 for 8lb or $60 per 1lb, about time you freeloading Yanks stopped having it so good.
I was able to check out on this site picked up a few pounds to try out, The site is super slow right now but if you stick with it you can order some 10# limit they have 1# and 8# instock StaBALL https://store.thirdgenerationshooti...6-5-powder-1-lb-winstaball1lb/category/10759/
Wish I could report similar results with it in my 6.5 Creedmoor; I’m scratching my head trying to figure out if there’s something wrong with my batch of Staball or what. I’m seeing way lower than expected speeds even going a grain or so over published max, and huge (~100 FPS) ES. This is in a RAR Predator.
Hornady brass
143 ELDX 2.840”
Primers - tried various Win, Fed, and CCI
Staball 6.5 - 44.8g does ~2650-2680 and ES 100 fps
I worked up to that point of course, because velocity was so low at book charges, expecting it to catch up but it never did. In comparison my RL16 load with the same bullet is 100 fps faster with single digit SD.
Any thoughts from you guys who’ve had success with Staball in the 6.5 Creed? Do you think it performs better with lighter bullet weights? Seems like a couple people here had good results and decent speed with 140-142gr though. I’ve only tried the 143, because I had a bunch of them and they shot well with other powders, and I don’t use lighter bullets much in the Creed any more.
Forgot to mention, I anneal every other firing, and have tried both neck turned and unturned brass, as well as both a standard FL Hornady die and a Lee collet die set up for .002” neck tension.
I’m leaning towards a bad batch of powder given the other good results posted here, but wondering if anyone else here has seen something similar or if I’m missing something obvious. About ready to pull my hair out with this powder.
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Finding something that works isn't a problem, already got that, this is about trying something new that's supposed to work. I mentioned RL16 above and have a few other good loads too. I experiment a lot though, and this one goes contrary to some of the other reports posted so it seemed worth asking about. It might just be a combination that doesn't play well, but it's supposed to. It's not a weird rifle/bullet combination or anything like that; I mean it's one of the most common 6.5 Creedmoor rifles in the country, using the most common components, in the cartridge that this powder supposedly was designed for. That's why the crappy results are so weird.
Humidity is a good thought, but I'm in the pacific northwest so while it's humid, it's still not as bad as a lot of the southeast, and my basement where I load is pretty dry.
(I'll also point out, not to toot my own horn but just for the record since it does affect the responses, that I've been handloading a long time with a lot of successes, including a number of my own wildcats, so I'm not a new reloader who just doesn't know how things work yet.) I do appreciate the feedback though, and wonder if others have experienced low velocity and high ES with Staball in applications that are supposed to work well?
Keeping up with this thread since the beginning, as well as a few others on other forums, it seems like SB likes to be loaded to near 100% case fill before the speed picks up and the ES/SD settle down. Some folks aren't seeing the velocity they want until 2gr over Hodgdon's max.
Any idea if you're nearing a compressed load with your components combo?
Never messed with the ELDX line in 6.5C, or a 14Xgr anything for that matter, but maybe try creeping up a little higher to see if you get a jump in velocity and a better ES?
ETA: Just to make the point, I only played around with 44.6gr and 45.6gr, both of which are over the listed max of 44.3 with a 130gr bullet. My 45.6gr load, in a suppressed AR-10 with AGB, is still showing no pressure signs. I really think you might have some more room to go up, especially if you can seat the bullet a little longer into what I presume is a fairly generous factory cut throat. Kinda thinking SB might act like 8208 XBR in that it's pretty mild, then awesome, then wild, all within .5gr.
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Reloading Unlimited has 1 pound jugs in stock. I bought 8 today to try out. I've got a 20" Tikka CTR in 6.5 and my top speed for 129ABLR's and 130 GameChangers with H4350 has been 2700FPS. Outstanding accuracy with both of them at that speed though. I'm hoping to get hotter than that with the StaBall though. I'm running Petersen brass, 210M's, and 42.9 gr of H4350. I'm pretty excited to try the StaBall from what I've read.
Mind sharing what you started with for load? I'm trying to minimize component usage for LD, and this is my first time reloading and doing LD. Seems like this powder errs toward the high end of charge weight
can't wait to try what i got of it 
so far . I Thank god I was able to get as much as I did being so late to the game .
so far . I Thank god I was able to get as much as I did being so late to the game .
Sorry for the slow response, I wanted to get back to the bench and check this before answering. You're right that my 44.8gr load (despite being 1+gr over book max) is not very compressed, if it is at all (it's right at that point where it's hard to tell for sure). Based on compression alone, not pressure, it looks like the case will handle at least 3gr more before compression is too high for my preference.
You may well be right that I could creep up the load a bit more, and I had the same thought. Just figured I'd ask since my results seem very different than some of the others here. I did find some threads in another forum with a number of guys complaining about low velocity at book loads with this stuff, so I guess it's not just me. It'd answer a lot if I tried a different lot number of this powder and got different results.
I ordered 2 jugs from PV, didn’t get a confirmation email so ordered 2 jugs from Brownells.can't wait to try what i got of it
Got both orders
Anybody try this yet in a .260 with either Berger 140 Hybrids or 130 AR hybrids? Good, bad, indifferent?
Went out and did my first ever load development test, found the best groups at .060 off the lands, and then I went to powder, following Scott Satterlees LD process.
6.5 CM
140gr Nosler Custom Competition
Staball 6.5
Federal Match 210m primers
Hornady 1x brass
No pressure signs all the way up to 45.4, primers less flat than the factory hornady loads, no ejector marking or smearing, easy bolt lift. Seemed totally fine
Series,10, Shots:, 3. 44.4 Grains
Min,2710, Max,2717
Avg,2714 ,S-D, 4.1
ES , 7
Series,Shot,Speed
10, 1, 2717, ft/s
10, 2, 2717, ft/s
10, 3, 2710, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,11, Shots:, 3. 44.6 grains
Min,2722, Max,2765
Avg,2742 ,S-D,21.5
ES , 43
Series,Shot,Speed
11, 1, 2741, ft/s
11, 2, 2765, ft/s
11, 3, 2722, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,12, Shots:, 3. 44.8 grains
Min,2727, Max,2753
Avg,2739 ,S-D,13.0
ES , 26
Series,Shot,Speed
12, 1, 2753, ft/s
12, 2, 2738, ft/s
12, 3, 2727, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,13, Shots:, 3 45 grains
Min,2753, Max,2776
Avg,2761 ,S-D,13.0
ES , 23
Series,Shot,Speed
13, 1, 2754, ft/s
13, 2, 2776, ft/s
13, 3, 2753, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,14, Shots:, 2. 45.2 grains
Min,2761, Max,2795
Avg,2778 ,S-D,17.0
ES , 34
Series,Shot,Speed
14, 1, 2761, ft/s
14, 2, 2795, ft/s
14, 3, 2785, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,15, Shots:, 3. 45.4 grains
Min,2786, Max,2826
Avg,2805 ,S-D,20.0
ES , 40
Series,Shot,Speed
15, 1, 2826, ft/s
15, 2, 2804, ft/s
15, 3, 2786, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Primers from 44.2grains on top to 45.4 grains on bottom
6.5 CM
140gr Nosler Custom Competition
Staball 6.5
Federal Match 210m primers
Hornady 1x brass
No pressure signs all the way up to 45.4, primers less flat than the factory hornady loads, no ejector marking or smearing, easy bolt lift. Seemed totally fine
Series,10, Shots:, 3. 44.4 Grains
Min,2710, Max,2717
Avg,2714 ,S-D, 4.1
ES , 7
Series,Shot,Speed
10, 1, 2717, ft/s
10, 2, 2717, ft/s
10, 3, 2710, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,11, Shots:, 3. 44.6 grains
Min,2722, Max,2765
Avg,2742 ,S-D,21.5
ES , 43
Series,Shot,Speed
11, 1, 2741, ft/s
11, 2, 2765, ft/s
11, 3, 2722, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,12, Shots:, 3. 44.8 grains
Min,2727, Max,2753
Avg,2739 ,S-D,13.0
ES , 26
Series,Shot,Speed
12, 1, 2753, ft/s
12, 2, 2738, ft/s
12, 3, 2727, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,13, Shots:, 3 45 grains
Min,2753, Max,2776
Avg,2761 ,S-D,13.0
ES , 23
Series,Shot,Speed
13, 1, 2754, ft/s
13, 2, 2776, ft/s
13, 3, 2753, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,14, Shots:, 2. 45.2 grains
Min,2761, Max,2795
Avg,2778 ,S-D,17.0
ES , 34
Series,Shot,Speed
14, 1, 2761, ft/s
14, 2, 2795, ft/s
14, 3, 2785, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Series,15, Shots:, 3. 45.4 grains
Min,2786, Max,2826
Avg,2805 ,S-D,20.0
ES , 40
Series,Shot,Speed
15, 1, 2826, ft/s
15, 2, 2804, ft/s
15, 3, 2786, ft/s
----,----,----,----
Primers from 44.2grains on top to 45.4 grains on bottom
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6mm Creedmoor
1:7.5T 26"
44gr Sta-Ball, DTAC 115, Hornady Brass (8x fired?), CCI 200
FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~.100" jump to jam.
2987fps @61F/28.5inHg/25% - No chrono - speed trued at 600yrds in Strelok Pro.
G7 .302 BC was dead on @800 and 1000.
Dropped straight into cases, $50 measure, $50 scale... powder took about ~15mins to do 100rds.
1000 yards off bipod and rear bag (wasn't even the best group, just one I remembered to snap a pic of):
1:7.5T 26"
44gr Sta-Ball, DTAC 115, Hornady Brass (8x fired?), CCI 200
FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~.100" jump to jam.
2987fps @61F/28.5inHg/25% - No chrono - speed trued at 600yrds in Strelok Pro.
G7 .302 BC was dead on @800 and 1000.
Dropped straight into cases, $50 measure, $50 scale... powder took about ~15mins to do 100rds.
1000 yards off bipod and rear bag (wasn't even the best group, just one I remembered to snap a pic of):
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I'd either change powders or suggest a new barrel. Or quit man you suck! And STABALL SUCKS!
^^^Thanks.
This stuff has been a game changer for me, and I know people throw that term around, but it really has. Being able to just throw charges and still get pretty crazy consistency in the drops just makes everything so much easier.
I think it's not really so much about just whether or not someone is able to afford a Prometheus or Autotrickler or whatever and an FX120... it's really more about: time. There's just no way around it, loading good ammo takes some real time to do it right no matter what cool gadgets one has, and a lot of it is tedious as fuck, so when something comes along that can really cut out a good amount of time/pain without the ammo-quality suffering, it's huge.
I hope more of these temp-stableish ball powders come out from the other major players, this is the way.
This stuff has been a game changer for me, and I know people throw that term around, but it really has. Being able to just throw charges and still get pretty crazy consistency in the drops just makes everything so much easier.
I think it's not really so much about just whether or not someone is able to afford a Prometheus or Autotrickler or whatever and an FX120... it's really more about: time. There's just no way around it, loading good ammo takes some real time to do it right no matter what cool gadgets one has, and a lot of it is tedious as fuck, so when something comes along that can really cut out a good amount of time/pain without the ammo-quality suffering, it's huge.
I hope more of these temp-stableish ball powders come out from the other major players, this is the way.
I'm working up a load with StaBall 6.5 for my 280AI with Barnes 140 TTSX's. It takes a lot to fill the case on that round. You're correct, it meters extremely well. Consistent, and fast. After I run out of H4350 I'm going to use StaBall for my 6.5 Creedmoor from there on out. I've still got 3 pounds or so of H4350 to go though so that might be awhile down the road.
100% for me it was the chance to save a ton of time so I tried it an voila not only did I get better accuracy on paper but SD and ES as well. The trickler stays in the cabinet. I used to stop every 10 and check, but it's just bang on ever time and I only load one caliber. Now I just test a couple at start and go.....periodically I'll drop one at the end for the scale and just laugh
For me it's like: "I don't like to prime cases unless I'm going to drop powder, and I don't want to drop powder unless I have time to seat bullets too." So it used to be, even if I had an hour, I really needed longer than that or else I just couldn't/shouldn't get into it (we have cats and shit happens lol).
Or, if I can get a morning or afternoon free, if my brass prep was done (still sucks), I could load, but not enough time to load then go shoot...
Now, with Staball, if I get a morning or afternoon free, I have time to both load and go shoot, usually it's just go shoot, because I can usually find time to finish up loading here and there when priming/powder/bullets/whole enchilada takes only an hour (and is still pretty damn precise).
- As far as how the powder works after having gone through a bunch of it now: I have to say I totally agree with the folks who've said earlier in the thread that the stuff really starts to get good when it starts to get more towards 100% case fill. Speed ramps up quick too once case fill is at the shoulder, but not so much that it's scary: my MV was only ~2740fps with 41.5gr of it when I first started trying it, with 44gr I'm at ~3000fps.
That said, I feel like it likes to be run "slower", for my cartridge at least. For me in 6creed the low node at around 2900-3000fps is much more wide/fat/forgiving than when run up to the top looking for 3200fps... I've run from "book max" at 43gr to 46.5gr or so a few times now and still haven't really seen any pressure signs, but the higher I went, the more peaky and spikey the speed changes became.
It's actually a plus in 6creed, because around ~2900fps it's a nice soft recoil impulse and is like having a Dasher or 6GT without the fancy brass, mag/feeding headaches, or having to buy new dies and shit lol.
Or, if I can get a morning or afternoon free, if my brass prep was done (still sucks), I could load, but not enough time to load then go shoot...
Now, with Staball, if I get a morning or afternoon free, I have time to both load and go shoot, usually it's just go shoot, because I can usually find time to finish up loading here and there when priming/powder/bullets/whole enchilada takes only an hour (and is still pretty damn precise).
- As far as how the powder works after having gone through a bunch of it now: I have to say I totally agree with the folks who've said earlier in the thread that the stuff really starts to get good when it starts to get more towards 100% case fill. Speed ramps up quick too once case fill is at the shoulder, but not so much that it's scary: my MV was only ~2740fps with 41.5gr of it when I first started trying it, with 44gr I'm at ~3000fps.
That said, I feel like it likes to be run "slower", for my cartridge at least. For me in 6creed the low node at around 2900-3000fps is much more wide/fat/forgiving than when run up to the top looking for 3200fps... I've run from "book max" at 43gr to 46.5gr or so a few times now and still haven't really seen any pressure signs, but the higher I went, the more peaky and spikey the speed changes became.
It's actually a plus in 6creed, because around ~2900fps it's a nice soft recoil impulse and is like having a Dasher or 6GT without the fancy brass, mag/feeding headaches, or having to buy new dies and shit lol.
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ceekay your reloading time constraints are pretty much exactly what I was going though as well. Truly if StaBall would have been a smidge less performance than 4350 I'd of gone StaBall b/c of what it does for my shooting time-work time. That it's substantially better in all departments was one of those yahoo moments.
Have any load data, chrono results, and group size info you could expand on?
What powder were using before StaBall with the 77gr TMKs? AR or bolt gun?
I have a bunch of H4350 left for my 6.5x47L, and a ton of 8208XBR for 77gr .223 loading, but if SB really can replace those I'll gladly simplify what I buy in bulk as the others run low/out.
Thanks
This is what quick load came up with at 2.260 coal 223 rem
Attachments
You piqued my curiosity so I gave your load a try this afternoon:
77 TMK, OAL 2.255"
LC 19 brass, once fired
Fed AR match primer
StaBall 6.5 26.5gr
The results were pretty slow.
16" 223 Wylde AR - 2411 fps
20" 5.56 Ballistic Advantage AR - 2489 fps
In comparison I'm shooting the same bullet from the 20" at 2940 fps with Lever; there is no data so the load might be warm but case life is good, and it doesn't give any more indication of pressure than the StaBall load above.
I'll add as well that I don't give a hoot what QL or any other calculator says until you've trued the results with your barrel, components, and powder lot. Otherwise the margin of error is so large that the results just don't mean much.
No trolling implied in my post, not sure where you got that from? I'm just sharing actual results.
If it's useful to anyone trying to adjust QL - my full length sized LC19 brass held exactly 30.0gr of Staball 6.5 flush to the case mouth, with no settling.
I take it back I thought you were trying to pick because I threw out Ql numbers thinking it would/could be helpful.
D
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I'm finding it VERY dirty! Just cleaned muzzle brake and suppressor, less than 100 rounds and both are filthy and tons more carbon build up than other powders I've run. I usually clean my suppressor every 500 rounds and StaBall is less than 100... Just my 2 cents
Maybe, and I didn't reload the cases several times like I would with a serious load workup, but the initial indications look like pressure is up there a bit and there probably isn't a lot more room to go further. Regardless, at 400+ fps slower than my preferred ball powder load for the same bullet, I don't see much point in chasing this powder further. Or for a temp stable load, both Benchmark and 8208 can net another 250 fps and easily meter enough to just throw charges without weighing them all.
(Incidentally this is the reason I find max load and velocity before doing an accuracy test; no sense in wasting components if velocity is so low that I don't want to use it.)
Then again, I still wonder if my batch of powder is extra slow for some reason, because I get similar very slow results in the 6.5 Creedmoor as I posted earlier. I'd be interested to see someone else's velocity results for that 77 TMK load.
Thanks for the 77gr data, folks.
Think I'll just stick with 8208 as it meters pretty well in the Dillon PM. Even if Yondering has a slow batch of StaBall, there's no way that should account for a 250fps deficit, IMO.
Looks like maybe the 24" barrel used in the Hodgdon data is letting the StaBall do it's thing, but for those of us using "standard" AR length barrels we're just not going to see SB match the velocity of known producers.
Might load a few up in the 75-105% range next week for giggles and data.....
Think I'll just stick with 8208 as it meters pretty well in the Dillon PM. Even if Yondering has a slow batch of StaBall, there's no way that should account for a 250fps deficit, IMO.
Looks like maybe the 24" barrel used in the Hodgdon data is letting the StaBall do it's thing, but for those of us using "standard" AR length barrels we're just not going to see SB match the velocity of known producers.
Might load a few up in the 75-105% range next week for giggles and data.....
Might be worth mentioning that the Hodgdon tests in 223, were done on a 12 or 14 twist barrel. Even with the heavy 77 and 75 gr pills. I got the "that's what SAAMI specifies for the cartridge" bullshit when I talked to them about it. It's more likely "we didn't want to buy a different test barrel for the heavier bullets requiring a faster twist for stabilization". Which makes their published data in this case, highly suspect.
Will that cause this kind of disparity between their pressure tests, and real world fast twist barrel tests? Can't say for sure.
But I take Hodgdon published data with a very large grain of salt. It's usually way off IME, on the conservative side. And in this case even more so, due to the differences in barrel twist.
JMTCW...
Might be worth mentioning that the Hodgdon tests in 223, were done on a 12 or 14 twist barrel. Even with the heavy 77 and 75 gr pills. I got the "that's what SAAMI specifies for the cartridge" bullshit when I talked to them about it. It's more likely "we didn't want to buy a different test barrel for the heavier bullets requiring a faster twist for stabilization". Which makes their published data in this case, highly suspect.
For point of reference, I’d be running these 77gr TMK loads through an unsuppressed 18” DD upper and a suppressed 10.3” Colt upper. Both 1:7 twist.
In compete agreement the H published data is likely funky compared to actual rifle barrels. Just not sure how many primers and man minutes I want to put towards this endeavor when men smarter than I have already found it to be lacking.
For point of reference, I’d be running these 77gr TMK loads through an unsuppressed 18” DD upper and a suppressed 10.3” Colt upper. Both 1:7 twist.
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