Let me preface this with the fact I am relatively a novice compared to most here. Please explain how a rifle can be worth $7k plus? I’m not referring to sentimental, collector, experimental caliber gun value, but with the quality of rifles available for less than $3k what is the motivation? Once you are getting 1/4 moa consistently what does the extra money garner? I am not being facetious, but genuinely curious? Thanks
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Please educate me regarding ROI on tier 1 rifles
- Thread starter Burton Ranch
- Start date
Preference. Same argument as the, why buy a Porsche/Ferrari/etc when a corvette is just as fast. There are feature sets that matter to some and others that don’t.
Refinement is the one thing I’ve noticed in higher end rifles.
Refinement is the one thing I’ve noticed in higher end rifles.
4fuxsake look at how our brains did the same shit at the same time!!!
I’ve never owned one. Just curious if there was a practical benefit? I understand free market economics and thought I prefaced the question as such? I’m not looking for the “because I can afford it response”.
It’s literally that though. I had numerous 700 based builds. Got tired of the deciding which trigger, action, chassis, etc. to pick for a build. Invested in an AI AT. Loved the feel of the action, liked the trigger, and it was very accurate. Barrels could swap in a minute. I didn’t like the grip though and couldn’t get over it. Moved to a factory Cadex rifle and am very happy at the moment. The Cadex is refined like the AI, is a factory built rifle from top to bottom, and has the features I want.
Literally, if you cannot afford something high-end, there are numerous guns at a lower price-point that can do a similar job. Again, it comes down to what the value is to you personally. Example: I know guys with cheaper rifles than I have, but with glass that costs 2-3x what I spent. I can’t tell much difference in high-end glass vs mid-tier glass, so I save myself some money.
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I started out with a Savage, then moved to Remingtons and then got my Remingtons trued, then started lusting after custom actions. I got one BAT which cost me 3 times the cost of a trued Remington.
Here is where I tumbled to personally....I can't out shoot my trued Remingtons.
I have a drawer full of various bolts and extra parts to run them with should anything break. I could literally break a bolt handle off the day before a match or a class, and go get one out of the drawer that will work. It may not be as good as the one I broke, but it will be safe and it will work.
These days I am more and more concerned with sustainability than gnats ass accuracy. Most of these claimed 1/4 moa guns might be 1/4 moa for 3 shots occasionally, but I can just about guarantee that they won't do it for 10 or 20 shots.
Even if they could...could you?
Here is where I tumbled to personally....I can't out shoot my trued Remingtons.
I have a drawer full of various bolts and extra parts to run them with should anything break. I could literally break a bolt handle off the day before a match or a class, and go get one out of the drawer that will work. It may not be as good as the one I broke, but it will be safe and it will work.
These days I am more and more concerned with sustainability than gnats ass accuracy. Most of these claimed 1/4 moa guns might be 1/4 moa for 3 shots occasionally, but I can just about guarantee that they won't do it for 10 or 20 shots.
Even if they could...could you?
My only experience with AI rifles was at the first Frank/Mike Mile High class. Wind was consistently in the high teens, gusting to 20s, and was blowing around some very fine dust. Almost all the rifles went down due to trigger failure or extremely heavy pull. Mine was definitely pulling at way more than 10lbs. The only rifles that didn’t go down we’re the three AIs and the guy who had a Deviant with a Bix-n-Andy trigger.
I was shooting a TL3 with a Timney 510, Shilen barrel, on an XLR Envy. I thought it was pretty badass, and still do, but I know now it’s definitely not Tier 1.
So, I guess my answer is if you want to minimize your chance of being out of the fight due to a malfunction, get an AI, or put a Bix-n-Andy trigger in your trued 700. @Skookum has a good point about spares. My solution was to get a TriggerTech and hope.
I was shooting a TL3 with a Timney 510, Shilen barrel, on an XLR Envy. I thought it was pretty badass, and still do, but I know now it’s definitely not Tier 1.
So, I guess my answer is if you want to minimize your chance of being out of the fight due to a malfunction, get an AI, or put a Bix-n-Andy trigger in your trued 700. @Skookum has a good point about spares. My solution was to get a TriggerTech and hope.
Good to know, when reliability it critical in extreme conditions that would certainly be a justification. Thanks
$7k? I haven’t found a need or shortcoming in my current setups to necessitate a jump to that price level, but some people might.
all my high end builds currently shoot better than im capable. i figure when i get to where im able to shoot the rifle to its potential it will be ready....lol
Depends.
7k for the rifle itself, or 7k for the entire setup? This changes the answer quite a bit.
With optics and rifles there is a point of diminishing returns.
About $2k-$2500 for an optic
About $3-4k for a rifle with no accessories
After that, you’re paying much more for smaller returns.
You can get an AI-AT rifle for around 4k. AI are regarded as shooting very well as well as almost never failing. You can pay $6500 or so for an AX. It’ll shoot the same as well as the same ruggedness. But you’ll pay 2k more for the adjustable stock as well as forend tube.
You can buy a vortex razor gen 2 for $1700 or a NF atacr 5-25 for around $2500. Anything more than that and you’re not getting a ton more for your money.
So, if you’re asking if a full rifle (optics and full accessories) will see a difference at 7k......yes you will. Buy a Remington 700 and put an Athlon Argos btr on it. $1200 setup. Then go shoot your buddy’s 7k setup. Try not to throw the cheap shit in the trash while you’re ordering the $7k setup on your way home.
If you’re asking if you’ll see a huge difference in a $4k rifle and a $7k rifle (no optic/accessories), then no......you won’t see a lot of difference for that $2-$3k more.
7k for the rifle itself, or 7k for the entire setup? This changes the answer quite a bit.
With optics and rifles there is a point of diminishing returns.
About $2k-$2500 for an optic
About $3-4k for a rifle with no accessories
After that, you’re paying much more for smaller returns.
You can get an AI-AT rifle for around 4k. AI are regarded as shooting very well as well as almost never failing. You can pay $6500 or so for an AX. It’ll shoot the same as well as the same ruggedness. But you’ll pay 2k more for the adjustable stock as well as forend tube.
You can buy a vortex razor gen 2 for $1700 or a NF atacr 5-25 for around $2500. Anything more than that and you’re not getting a ton more for your money.
So, if you’re asking if a full rifle (optics and full accessories) will see a difference at 7k......yes you will. Buy a Remington 700 and put an Athlon Argos btr on it. $1200 setup. Then go shoot your buddy’s 7k setup. Try not to throw the cheap shit in the trash while you’re ordering the $7k setup on your way home.
If you’re asking if you’ll see a huge difference in a $4k rifle and a $7k rifle (no optic/accessories), then no......you won’t see a lot of difference for that $2-$3k more.
I have about $4500 into my current 260 including optic.
Yikes!
That adds up fast!
I’m happy with it.
It shoots very well, trigger is amazing and action is really smooth without being super tight.
Would a AI smash it?
Definitely not.
Personally if an AI AX does what you want I think it’s worth the money.
They’re pretty sorted out.
More money than I wanna spend but I understand why people buy them.
Yikes!
That adds up fast!
I’m happy with it.
It shoots very well, trigger is amazing and action is really smooth without being super tight.
Would a AI smash it?
Definitely not.
Personally if an AI AX does what you want I think it’s worth the money.
They’re pretty sorted out.
More money than I wanna spend but I understand why people buy them.
If you’re mid-pack, the difference between a decent gun and a high end gun probably won’t change your placement at all. If you’re near the front, small advantages can make a difference. I once won a match by less than a half second across the entire match, any hangup or fighting with my gear would have cost me the match.
I hate that you had issues getting your shots on target, but there is always tomorrow.
Besides the brand recognition/ cool factor, AI rifles tend to hold value pretty well.
I bought one when I was sick and tired of tinkering with rifles to make them run 100%
Even today with the great build parts available, there are plenty of people finding they can only run trigger x on their action and bottom metal z with mag y to get everything working properly.
If a person likes tinkering, great.
I prefer to be out shooting or hunting
I bought one when I was sick and tired of tinkering with rifles to make them run 100%
Even today with the great build parts available, there are plenty of people finding they can only run trigger x on their action and bottom metal z with mag y to get everything working properly.
If a person likes tinkering, great.
I prefer to be out shooting or hunting
So no hitting the gnats ass off on that group! ?
Still that's a tight little group of misses!
I wanted to shoot .338LM since I was 18 or so. I had never fired a .338 Lapua before and didn’t know anyone who owned one so I couldn’t test it out. In an effort to test one before going all-in on a custom build, I bought a Savage 110BA Stealth Evolution.
I immediately fell in love with the cartridge and the rifle was great. Less than 60 days later, I bought an AI AXMC because I love the look of them and have wanted an AI for ages. I spent a lot of time looking at various custom builds and actually had several smiths work up quotes for parts I thought I wanted on a custom build. Ultimately I discovered that my perfect build was going to run $5000 or more and have a 3-12 month gather/build time and I was ready to shoot yesterday. Even imagining my perfect build didn’t make me grin the way I grinned looking at AXMC rifles online, so I dropped a bit over $6k for one and haven’t looked back.
I own an AXMC and it is capable of shooting better groups than me. I have shot ragged-hole groups at 250 yards.
I have also shot ragged-hole groups at 250 yards with the sub-$2000 Savage rifle. They are both awesome pieces of machinery. The AXMC is just much more awesome to me.
I immediately fell in love with the cartridge and the rifle was great. Less than 60 days later, I bought an AI AXMC because I love the look of them and have wanted an AI for ages. I spent a lot of time looking at various custom builds and actually had several smiths work up quotes for parts I thought I wanted on a custom build. Ultimately I discovered that my perfect build was going to run $5000 or more and have a 3-12 month gather/build time and I was ready to shoot yesterday. Even imagining my perfect build didn’t make me grin the way I grinned looking at AXMC rifles online, so I dropped a bit over $6k for one and haven’t looked back.
I own an AXMC and it is capable of shooting better groups than me. I have shot ragged-hole groups at 250 yards.
I have also shot ragged-hole groups at 250 yards with the sub-$2000 Savage rifle. They are both awesome pieces of machinery. The AXMC is just much more awesome to me.
One thing about the AI rifles in the Tier 1 division, is that a lot of other rifles will shoot just as good or possibly better on any good day.
The AI (with the factory trigger), will shoot good on a really bad day.
The AI (with the factory trigger), will shoot good on a really bad day.
Schmidt’s, TT, zcomps, kahles, etc etc.
I’ve settled on zcomp for my personal preferences.
But the diminishing returns is pretty high compared to a razor gen 2. I’ll pay it, but not everyone can justify it.
The price to performance curve is always agnostic to the hobby. It always has a hyperbolic shape....I end up paying it regardless
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I've owned a DTA. It let me down a lot in competition. It is gone. My shooting teammate named it 'Dont Take Anywhere'
I replaced it with a Tikka. It did the job very well. I broke it once running the bolt hard, but it has been a great gun that has served me well for 5 years.
I just replaced it with an AX. I am having a hard time parting with the Tikka, but the way the AX handles, the lockup, the feeding, the accuracy, just made everything, including the almost as pricey DTA look 'cheap'.
The expense seems high, until the equipment screws you during a match you have been training all year for.
I replaced it with a Tikka. It did the job very well. I broke it once running the bolt hard, but it has been a great gun that has served me well for 5 years.
I just replaced it with an AX. I am having a hard time parting with the Tikka, but the way the AX handles, the lockup, the feeding, the accuracy, just made everything, including the almost as pricey DTA look 'cheap'.
The expense seems high, until the equipment screws you during a match you have been training all year for.
What gen was your DT? What problems have you had?
I have an A1 and a AIAX. The AI oozes quality but I shoot the DT better and it is much nicer to carry around and use in and out of vehicles.
I just paid $7k for a very lightly used post-14 AX in 308 with 3 mags, Mav41 bag, Pelican case, Harris BRMS ... oh yeah and a S&B PMII P4FL 5-25. Added a 260 Tooley bbl for a decent price.
Why? Well, just like my EGW 38supercomp ... it shoots very accurately all day long in all kinds of shitty conditions. Lots of good 'Smith's can build you a tack driver. Do they have the history of performing to standard after being hauled thru anything from sand to snow? I wanted a rifle I can depend on as much as my EDC pistol.
Why? Well, just like my EGW 38supercomp ... it shoots very accurately all day long in all kinds of shitty conditions. Lots of good 'Smith's can build you a tack driver. Do they have the history of performing to standard after being hauled thru anything from sand to snow? I wanted a rifle I can depend on as much as my EDC pistol.
Go find a used AIAE MKIII, those rigs are undervalued. I've seen them go for as little as $1500. They shoot just as well as any AI out there.
I think "ROI" might be a very subjective acronym to use in the firearms world. Like some said before, market dictates a used price. The cost "new" is what the manufacturer (or reseller) feels is a good ROI for them given the amount of engineering, man-hours and materials that were expended.
Being in the AI realm as long as a lot of others and myself here have I can truly appreciate the differences between their actions and say the de facto-standard R700. Leaving the chassis out on purpose here.
While a huge AI fan myself, I feel that there is an unequal (but not unfair) amount of hype given to AI versus some others that there are equally viable options out there. Perhaps not as well supported, but definitely viable. As of recently I've grown very fond of my Sako M10 for instance. The MK21 will be another awesome platform when I have it all completed. $7K - I wish. Looking at about $17K sitting in the M10 between three barrels (one custom) and optics, etc. Will end up with about the same in the MK21 when it's all said and done. Each of the AW's and AX's and AXMC are sitting around the $13K mark all decked out.
@jwknutson17 and I were just having a conversation the other day about how much money gets invested into these "top-tier" platforms by all sorts of people. It's just how it is...
How do I justify the extreme cost? I simply don't! Justification is the satisfaction of owning such excellent engineering; knowing that even though I don't typically use the platform in the conditions it was intended, I could. While nothing is invincible, it's mitigation of failure to a degree. I'm also not your typical "collector", there is a degree that involved.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
Being in the AI realm as long as a lot of others and myself here have I can truly appreciate the differences between their actions and say the de facto-standard R700. Leaving the chassis out on purpose here.
While a huge AI fan myself, I feel that there is an unequal (but not unfair) amount of hype given to AI versus some others that there are equally viable options out there. Perhaps not as well supported, but definitely viable. As of recently I've grown very fond of my Sako M10 for instance. The MK21 will be another awesome platform when I have it all completed. $7K - I wish. Looking at about $17K sitting in the M10 between three barrels (one custom) and optics, etc. Will end up with about the same in the MK21 when it's all said and done. Each of the AW's and AX's and AXMC are sitting around the $13K mark all decked out.
@jwknutson17 and I were just having a conversation the other day about how much money gets invested into these "top-tier" platforms by all sorts of people. It's just how it is...
How do I justify the extreme cost? I simply don't! Justification is the satisfaction of owning such excellent engineering; knowing that even though I don't typically use the platform in the conditions it was intended, I could. While nothing is invincible, it's mitigation of failure to a degree. I'm also not your typical "collector", there is a degree that involved.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
Mine was a Gen1.
1)The fine desert sand would bind up the bolt. Minor issue. But the AI's never seem to have trouble on the same course of fire at Blue Steel Ranch.
2)Pull the trigger, click instead of bang. To fix this you have to push in the back of the bolt while tapping the bolt so that the little pin would extend further out and not block the bolt firing mechanism. Lost several stages at different matches messing with that. It became a pre-event ritual to have to do the bolt pin shake.
3)The last draw was having the bushing around the bolt face fall out during the first shooting stage of a 36 hour event, releasing the firing pin into the dirt on the ground. I carried that piece of shit for another 65 miles as a glorified spotting scope.
I'm sure some of my problems were because all DTA's stuff got tested out on folks like be who were early adopters. I cringe watching folks with the MDR go through the same business....
It boils down to usage and how much money you have to put toward your hobby.
At $7000 I'm assuming you're talking the entire setup. not just the barreled action.
$1250 for a bare custom action
$700 for a barrel and machinework
$250 for a good trigger
$500+ for a good stock or chassis
$150+ for a muzzle brake
$1500+ for a scope
$200+ for scope mounts
$4550 on the low end for a custom rifle, $7000+ when you figure in the common stuff like $1200 stocks/chassis and $3000+ scopes.
For 90% of shooters, a custom rifle is not the answer. They just dont shoot enough to justify it.
It would be like having a Nascar as a daily driver to get you to and from work. If you're just going to the range to shoot groups or shoot steel a few times a year, maybe once a month, you cant justify it.
I used to be there. Savages were always good enough because they didnt cost a ton, always managed 1/2" MOA and like you, couldnt fathom what the need for a custom rifle was....but all I was doing was "daily driving it"......putting to and from work with it.
The same goes for optics. People cant begin to believe someone would spend $500 on a scope when their $40 Walmart bushnell kills deer just fine. Does a $1500 Burris XTR2 get the job done? Sure does. Does a $3000+ optic do it better? Absolutely, but is the price difference worth it.
Once I started competing I found out that the savage was still accurate enough, it just didn't work like I needed it to. I spent a lot of money.
With a custom action and barrel, you get accuracy, reliability, and nice features. A slick/fast action, lack of issues, a rifle that performs time and time again in competition. When you pay $100+ for a match, $200+ in gas to get there, $100 for ammo, waste 4+ hours driving to and from, maybe give up an entire weekend..... that $800 "half moa off the shelf" rifle isnt going to cut it. It will let you down.
You'll also spend a ton upgrading it trying to make it into a custom rig, and have NO resale value (been down that road)
Rifles, just like optics, have a severe, diminishing ROI.
The more you spend is not a linear trend as far as quality or features.
$1000 rifle can get you a great shooting gun, but will leave a lot to be desired when used for serious competition and thousands upon thousands of rounds put through it every year.
At $7000 I'm assuming you're talking the entire setup. not just the barreled action.
$1250 for a bare custom action
$700 for a barrel and machinework
$250 for a good trigger
$500+ for a good stock or chassis
$150+ for a muzzle brake
$1500+ for a scope
$200+ for scope mounts
$4550 on the low end for a custom rifle, $7000+ when you figure in the common stuff like $1200 stocks/chassis and $3000+ scopes.
For 90% of shooters, a custom rifle is not the answer. They just dont shoot enough to justify it.
It would be like having a Nascar as a daily driver to get you to and from work. If you're just going to the range to shoot groups or shoot steel a few times a year, maybe once a month, you cant justify it.
I used to be there. Savages were always good enough because they didnt cost a ton, always managed 1/2" MOA and like you, couldnt fathom what the need for a custom rifle was....but all I was doing was "daily driving it"......putting to and from work with it.
The same goes for optics. People cant begin to believe someone would spend $500 on a scope when their $40 Walmart bushnell kills deer just fine. Does a $1500 Burris XTR2 get the job done? Sure does. Does a $3000+ optic do it better? Absolutely, but is the price difference worth it.
Once I started competing I found out that the savage was still accurate enough, it just didn't work like I needed it to. I spent a lot of money.
With a custom action and barrel, you get accuracy, reliability, and nice features. A slick/fast action, lack of issues, a rifle that performs time and time again in competition. When you pay $100+ for a match, $200+ in gas to get there, $100 for ammo, waste 4+ hours driving to and from, maybe give up an entire weekend..... that $800 "half moa off the shelf" rifle isnt going to cut it. It will let you down.
You'll also spend a ton upgrading it trying to make it into a custom rig, and have NO resale value (been down that road)
Rifles, just like optics, have a severe, diminishing ROI.
The more you spend is not a linear trend as far as quality or features.
$1000 rifle can get you a great shooting gun, but will leave a lot to be desired when used for serious competition and thousands upon thousands of rounds put through it every year.
