Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

[earthquake]

Haven't read this whole thread, but FWIW, I still want to own a S&B some day. Never thought in a million years I could afford one, but with everything else coming around these days, I am thinking I could soon own a PMII 5-25 for $2,800 or less. I betting/hoping that the older PMII's will drop in price with the new offerings from S&B, NF, TT, and Vortex arriving.

My dream optic would be S&B PMII 5-25x with MSR-K, or the gen II Razor 4.5-27x with EBR2C.

Edit to add: I just watched the video from Vortex in another thread on the 4.5-27x Gen II Razors and wow! If the glass is even better than my current Gen I Razor, then I'm going to pick up one of them. I still think the EBR2 reticle is one of the best I've used thus far. Really digging the new illum control and the locking turret and turn indicator features.

 

[SFree]

And people wonder why Lindy, Two Shoes, USSR, and other "elder statesmen" no longer grace this forum with knowledge, wisdom, and insight. Wish I knew where they went...

 

[Rob01]

I didn't "Start" the argument. I just enhanced it. I"m proud to be on your list, everybody needs to be on a list somewhere. Come to think of it, I'm on a few list.

1. Your List.
2. 20+ years Army retirees with a service connected injury
3. The proud IOR owners list.
4. The 95th Training Division Expert Marksman list.
5. The list as one of the first American soldiers to be invited to the french Commando school as an Rifle instructor.
6. The first male to win the great American purple hull pea cook off. ( three time champ)

Hell The lists goes on and on!

If you keep trolling and "pushing buttons" there are buttons site admin can push as well and put you on another list. So how about you just cut the shit?

 

[cjgemm]

Haven't read this whole thread, but FWIW, I still want to own a S&B some day. Never thought in a million years I could afford one, but with everything else coming around these days, I am thinking I could soon own a PMII 5-25 for $2,800 or less. I betting/hoping that the older PMII's will drop in price with the new offerings from S&B, NF, TT, and Vortex arriving.

My dream optic would be S&B PMII 5-25x with MSR-K.

I picked up a 5-25 in Seekins 4/6 rings over the summer for $2700 right here on the PX.

 

[hk dave]

I didn't "Start" the argument. I just enhanced it. I"m proud to be on your list, everybody needs to be on a list somewhere. Come to think of it, I'm on a few list.

1. Your List.
2. 20+ years Army retirees with a service connected injury
3. The proud IOR owners list.
4. The 95th Training Division Expert Marksman list.
5. The list as one of the first American soldiers to be invited to the french Commando school as an Rifle instructor.
6. The first male to win the great American purple hull pea cook off. ( three time champ)

Hell The lists goes on and on!

Is this your attempt at being more obnoxious than you already are?

You must work for S&B or Nightforce or one of IORs competitors... because your posts on this thread have single handedly made me never want to buy IOR.

So either you're a genius or a moron?

 

[KYS]

I'm sure Bushnell is a fine scope in its price range. But I certainly wouldn't put it in the same "top tier" list as S&Bs, Henneys, Steiners, etc.

Do you have experience with that particular Bushnell line of scopes?

 

[KYS]

I didn't "Start" the argument. I just enhanced it. I"m proud to be on your list, everybody needs to be on a list somewhere. Come to think of it, I'm on a few list.

1. Your List.
2. 20+ years Army retirees with a service connected injury
3. The ignorant IOR owners list.
4. The 95th Training Division Expert Marksman list. (allegedly)
5. The list as one of the first American soldiers to be invited to the french Commando school as an Rifle instructor. (allegedly)
6. The first male to win the great American purple hull pea cook off. ( three time champ)

Hell The lists goes on and on!

I fixed it for you....

 

[phillip61]

Is this your attempt at being more obnoxious than you already are?

You must work for S&B or Nightforce or one of IORs competitors... because your posts on this thread have single handedly made me never want to buy IOR.

So either you're a genius or a moron?

Battle Skills School Top shooter. I have a plaque for that one if you want to see it
Honor grad. Texarkana College.
The only hard stripe E-4 my unit ever had. I was a PFC in a E-5 slot and my land Nav. skills were such that gave me some stripes.
The only person here at my college to attend both Fordum University and Georgetown university.
The only person with an associate degree to be invited to Fordum University to attend the Dermings Scholars "Call for Papers"

I am on so many list it ain't funny

 

[Rob01]

Seeing as he couldn't take a hint, Phillip won't be back for a week.

 

[Lowlight]

Well he can increase his list by one now, LOL

Darth Rob, chokes him from afar

 

[beenjammin]

lol. Like a good movie. What a great ending to this thread.

 

[dms416]

lol. Like a good movie. What a great ending to this thread.

 

[Thumper580]

Seeing as he couldn't take a hint, Phillip won't be back for a week.

Come on now....that's abit childish. Open forum, free speech, opinions, etc etc.

 

[Lowlight]

This isn;'t an open forum, it's a privately owned forum and free speech is for the government, not for here.

if the guy wants to troll, if he continues to post bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, better yet nothing to do with anything related, he can pay.

We have rules on SH, Free Speech is not found in any of them.

 

[KWilson]

Well said Sir, well said.

 

[Thumper580]

North Korea gives a solid thumbs up on no free speech. Are opinions allowed that are contrary to what the herd thinks.

 

[gimpy]

The only person here at my college to attend both Fordum University and Georgetown university.
The only person with an associate degree to be invited to Fordum University to attend the Dermings Scholars "Call for Papers"

I am on so many list it ain't funny

I guess they don't teach interpersonal skills or spelling at "Fordum University." Would've got that at Fordham University as part of the curriculum.

 

[Victory]

<a href="http://imgur.com/m5T4JYK" title="yeah well that's just like your opinion, man."><img src="http://i.imgur.com/m5T4JYK.gif" alt="yeah well that's just like your opinion, man." title="Hosted by imgur.com" /></a>

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

North Korea gives a solid thumbs up on no free speech. Are opinions allowed that are contrary to what the herd thinks.

Would you like it if someone walked into your house and disrespected you? Then touted "free speech" and whined about oppression when you told him to be respectful or leave.

I would not allow anyone to disrespect me in my own house. Period. End of story.

Be respectful in your disagreement and you can stay in Frank's house. Turn into a jack wagon internet troll, ya get kicked out.

Any other questions?

 

[Lowlight]

North Korea gives a solid thumbs up on no free speech. Are opinions allowed that are contrary to what the herd thinks.

if you don't like the rules or the enforcement of them, you are welcome to leave. In fact we don't want you here if you can't follow some basic rules.

Unlike North Korea nobody is forcing you to stay here.

If rules bother you, log out. It's pretty simple, its part of our Freedoms, you have a freedom of choice. You can Choose to follow our rules or you can leave.

 

[LRDD]

And people wonder why Lindy, Two Shoes, USSR, and other "elder statesmen" no longer grace this forum with knowledge, wisdom, and insight. Wish I knew where they went...

I hear ya on that, I miss a lot of the old guys these days.

 

[JeffLebowski]

North Korea gives a solid thumbs up on no free speech. Are opinions allowed that are contrary to what the herd thinks.

Start your own forum then.

 

[Thumper580]

I understand differing opinions make people uncomfortable and the easy route is to ask them to leave. It's easy and requires minimal thought. This sight will grow stronger and better if it welcomes all input no matter the source or viewpoint. "My way or the highway is abit myopic".

 

[KYS]

He posted off topic and admitted to "pushing buttons" just to do it. That is violating the forums rules. He isn't asking you to take an entrance exam to be here, follow the rules or go away!

Pretty easy!

 

[poison123]

He posted off topic and admitted to "pushing buttons" just to do it. That is violating the forums rules. He isn't asking you to take an entrance exam to be here, follow the rules or go away!

Pretty easy!

Agreed. The guy admitted to being a Troll. Not to mention throwing the equivalent of a race card.........

 

[Lowlight]

I understand differing opinions make people uncomfortable and the easy route is to ask them to leave. It's easy and requires minimal thought. This sight will grow stronger and better if it welcomes all input no matter the source or viewpoint. "My way or the highway is abit myopic".

This site has been around since 2000... that is 14 years.

We have seen forums come and go...i have a list.

MY RULES built this forum and have sustained it's popularity.

I have many times made examples of members who have tried to push the rules, do it their way which were against my rules and in every single case, I have won.

You're on the edge of having your button pushed, and it will be permanent. And trust me on this I have a lot of experience... you will not be missed. Not for one minute. In fact 1 minute after you have been removed, you will be replaced.

I built this site, I have been the guiding hand for it's success... don't ever forget that.

<dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Threads</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">224,953</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Posts</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">2,842,184</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Members</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">97,440

I think I know what I am doing... some days I just don't get it, I don't walk into your house, or your job and tell you how to run your life, why fuck do people insist on trying to tell me how to run my business and my life.


</dd>

 

[Thumper580]

He posted off topic and admitted to "pushing buttons" just to do it. That is violating the forums rules. He isn't asking you to take an entrance exam to be here, follow the rules or go away!

Pretty easy!

I see your point on that item. It's a great site and I want to hear differing viewpoints no matter the source. This thread is an example...S&B implosion, to IOR crap, to kicked out for a week. I agree with stay on topic. Reminds of staff meetings before I retired. Like trying to herd cats. I may not agree with what you say, but I will listen to it. Really feel it makes the site stronger to hear input from all sides, just don't admit you are trying to get someones goat.

 

[Victory]

This site has been around since 2000... that is 14 years.

We have seen forums come and go...i have a list.

MY RULES built this forum and have sustained it's popularity.

I have many times made examples of members who have tried to push the rules, do it their way which were against my rules and in every single case, I have won.

You're on the edge of having your button pushed, and it will be permanent. And trust me on this I have a lot of experience... you will not be missed. Not for one minute. In fact 1 minute after you have been removed, you will be replaced.

I built this site, I have been the guiding hand for it's success... don't ever forget that.

<dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Threads</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">224,953</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Posts</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">2,842,184</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Members</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">97,440

I think I know what I am doing... some days I just don't get it, I don't walk into your house, or your job and tell you how to run your life, why fuck do people insist on trying to tell me how to run my business and my life.


</dd>

<a href="http://imgur.com/t0kLc0c" title="I am pretty sure this is exactly how Imgurians feel when we find something good in User Submitted"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/t0kLc0c.gif" alt="I am pretty sure this is exactly how Imgurians feel when we find something good in User Submitted" title="Hosted by imgur.com" /></a>

 

[Thumper580]

This site has been around since 2000... that is 14 years.

We have seen forums come and go...i have a list.

MY RULES built this forum and have sustained it's popularity.

I have many times made examples of members who have tried to push the rules, do it their way which were against my rules and in every single case, I have won.

You're on the edge of having your button pushed, and it will be permanent. And trust me on this I have a lot of experience... you will not be missed. Not for one minute. In fact 1 minute after you have been removed, you will be replaced.

I built this site, I have been the guiding hand for it's success... don't ever forget that.

<dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Threads</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">224,953</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Posts</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">2,842,184</dd> <dt style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">Members</dt> <dd style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; display: inline; color: rgb(62, 62, 62); line-height: 15px;">97,440

I think I know what I am doing... some days I just don't get it, I don't walk into your house, or your job and tell you how to run your life, why fuck do people insist on trying to tell me how to run my business and my life.


</dd>

OK Frank... Uncle, Uncle. Out of curiosity what have I done, said or posted to break your rules? I've never cursed or sworn at anyone, only suggested some tolerance of other opinions and agree that folks should stay on topic.

 

[JeffLebowski]

OK Frank... Uncle, Uncle. Out of curiosity what have I done, said or posted to break your rules? I've never cursed or sworn at anyone, only suggested some tolerance of other opinions and agree that folks should stay on topic.

That's not what you did. You whined about free speech in a private forum I'm very certain that you've never contributed one red cent to. Start your forum, build up a user base, and pay the server costs.

 

[Lowlight]

You're continuing to derail the thread, you're questioning my rules, and you're basically starting a bunch of bullshit, because "YOU DO GET IT"

You're coming into my house and business and questioning the manner in which I operate,

You've been warned to drop it, and continue to push this line, which is a distraction to the topic.

Rules 1 & 2 cover your shit,

1.Exercise common sense and be considerate toward your fellow users. Diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token, Personal attacks, rudeness, flaming, baiting, insults to others, or arguments will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Any member who threatens anyone on the forum, via PM, instant messengers, or Email, will be banned immediately without notice.

2. Do not post off-topic. Please keep your comments consistent with the subject and purpose of the conversation thread. Deliberate disruption -- such as consistent off-topic commentary -- will not be tolerated.

 

[Graham]

Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

Again, you ignore my Seal sniper instructor quote, that the ocular adjusted the eye relief, this was an instructor at their school. Teaching students to adjust the eye relief move the ocular lens....

I am so glad you said that.

Because in another thread I criticized Tier One SEALs as having lost some basic infantry skills due to their being flown everywhere and dropped-off on every doorstep, and praised by comparison the Tier 3 SEALs for having kept those skills because they actually do land nav, but for saying that I get attacked as 'unpatriotic'.

 

[Jäger Wilhelm]

Thumper580, you are arguing. There is a difference between disagreeing and voicing an opinion, as compared to arguing, persisting with your opinion, disingenuous and disrespectful comments, and forcing your opinion down everyone's throat.

And the right to free speech has ALWAYS had reasonable limitations.

 

[The_FNG]

Hey, how about those bender guys imploding...

 

[Graham]

Hey, how about those bender guys imploding...

Don't know what you're talking about.. LOL.

 

[MosesTheTank]

There are a lot of opinions on here, to be sure. Some I agree with, some I don't. Some are well founded, many more are simply retarded. And I mean that in the most basic way.

However, disagreeing over glass quality boils down to ignorance. As Frank rightly pointed out, it's in how you spec it. Specs are not opinions. All of the measurements of glass quality are not opinions, they are specs and those are measurable facts. If they weren't there would be no need for engineers and we could just have a bunch of whining ninnies argue about which ones are of this or that quality. Then we could pick our various part vendors based on how big the sales chick's tits are rather than specs. I know these people are out there as I have seen idiots tell basic science teachers that the result of this or that equation is just their opinion, and I read every post in this thread. And all of the other parts of these scopes are built to specs, the springs and other internals talked about in this thread.

And while we are not privy to those specs (well, maybe Frank is) the final proof is in the testing of the components. A lot of testing. If this site is not about testing shit and seeing how things go, then I am truly in outer space. This is what really matters, it is where all factors tangible and intangible come together. There are a lot of people on here who have used a lot of these scopes and we talk about how things went. It's really not too much more complicated than that. And before anyone tries to throw in some indeterminable qualifier, like quality of the person doing assemblies, those too can be, and often are, speced out. Finally, just because you are not aware of how to measure glass quality, or how to test a scope, or don't know the mean time between failure of this or that part, doesn't mean that the topic is just for the opinion dumpster, it just means you don't know.

Is it worth the price? The answer to that is your opinion.

Yours Truly,
NF Fanboi

 

[Rob01]

North Korea gives a solid thumbs up on no free speech. Are opinions allowed that are contrary to what the herd thinks.

Why don't you think about the bullshit coming out of your mouth and who you are defending before posting. Childish? Yes he was acting very childish and me as site moderator gave him a gentle hint to cut it out. He didn;t take it and wanted to poke the bear. Well he got banned. He came on here and from his own mouth "I'm a button pusher, once I see what ticks people off I just can't help it, I'm going to push that button". That is a text book troll and we don't stand for that on this forum.

You have been here all of 4 months and you want to start telling us how to run the forum and comparing it to North Korea? Well you can be shown the door just as easily if you like? Opinion and comments are fine but when you purposely cause trouble you will go.

 

[Macmathews]

I understand differing opinions make people uncomfortable and the easy route is to ask them to leave. It's easy and requires minimal thought. This sight will grow stronger and better if it welcomes all input no matter the source or viewpoint. "My way or the highway is abit myopic".

I for 1 think he had more than enough chances to make his point..
He was in a pretty good "discussion" with LL and had his ass handed to him where he believed he was correct , then goes on saying it was only opinion.. While he had me fooled , I don't have nearly the education some do here..


Then continues to provoke until he gets a holiday, all the while bragging about being a dick.
I was enjoying the back and forth till he crossed the line.

Kyle

 

[Flyboyzack]

What the hell happened to this thread??? It starts off with insight on SBs future due to insanely high prices thread, to a beat up IOR thread, to a troll thread. Crazy.

I would like to own a SB scope someday perhaps, but I'm actually pretty happy with my RAZOR, and believe it or not, I actually like my IOR 3.5-18x50. It's not a SB though, although it's 1/3 to 1/2 the price too.

 

[10fp]

Bring back NOBODY

 

[Magnumdood]

Bring back NOBODY

You want to see multiple threads derailed, seemingly simultaneously, some dead-serious trolling and the embodiment of "jack wagon" then bring NOBODY back.

 

[Terry Cross]

Sorry DMS16, this was interesting until it was jacked......

 

[dcnyli]

thread only made me want a S&B scope more...

 

[dms416]

Sorry DMS16, this was interesting until it was jacked......

Every new member hopes to throw out such a stimulating topic. And even though it turned into a disaster, the following can be harvested:

-S&B's status was addressed from multiple angles. And as always, the final decision rests with the end user and his/her budget, preferences and needs.

-We got to watch a fanboy go down in flames

-We got some good insight on why to not buy an IOR...or what you may become IF you do

-We gained some insight on how Frank tests scopes

-We learned that hard-drivin' operators aren't perfect. We were reminded that the ocular adjustment is not for adjusting eye relief.

-We got to see the administrative process in action and reviewed some of the rules. There was even a bit of fundamental geography thrown in (that this is in fact NOT N. Korea).

 

[Coloradocop]

So, I keep hearing that Countersniper makes a better scope than Schmidt and Bender. I know it's true, I read it on their website. Any testing any of you have done to the contrary is B.S. And if any of you think otherwise, I'm going to list out my resume of accomplishments that have nothing to do with shooting, and tell the site owner to do unnatural things with garden vegetables! Discuss these awesome Countersniper scopes in this S&B thread, and do it NOW!


(just kidding, please don't ban me).


Actually, I appreciate the fact that Frank doesn't dumb down his testing, or bow to manufacturer pressures, when he tests scopes. I was on a tight budget for my last rifle, and appreciated the review that Frank did on the Weaver Grand Slam Tactical 3-10x scope, which is what I put on that rifle until I could afford a S&B. For the money, it turned out to be a really good scope for me.

 

[sib1948]

I felt the situation was handled fairly after giving that Jerk so much leeway! I have read multiple reviews of scopes on many Forums and have owned Marches, and Vortex and after getting the S&B 3-20X MTC LT with MSR a few weeks ago, I just placed an order for a similar 5-25X. I felt the others did not hold a candle to the S&B and I'm willing the accept a 2 year warranty to enjoy that difference, but will not pay up for the 27X! Will my shooting improve because of the scope? NO, but I'll certainly enjoy my practice time at the range, which will improve my skills.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Is this where I tell Obama jokes?

 

[diverdon]

I'm glad you have one.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/221654-scope-gone-bad.html Here is another forum member who has a experience with IOR.

 

[Veer_G]

My coffee maker has Schott glass. It says so on it.

Seriously. You just can't make schott like this up. Wow.

 

[BigJimFish]

Damn, I thought this thread died. It certainly imploded, but now it's back.