The will to win means nothing if you don't have the will to prepare.
Our guys are lacking in that because they don't train enough for your taste, eh?
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The will to win means nothing if you don't have the will to prepare.
Our guys are lacking because the military, as a system, caters to the lowest common denominator.
That said, some of the military is not lacking: I see them regularly at Rifles Only. But most of our guys are lacking because the pyramid is steeper than is the amount of real work necessary to be done.
Major matches, such as EIC (leg matches), Presidents Hundred, Team Matches, ITT, etc don't get sighters. Might say Team Matches have coaches, kind of like spotters. With the others, your on you own.
But that's not the point, my point all along is, if you care about your shooting, especially if its you job, seems to me you would want to practice it. You would think Sniper/DSM, would take it more serious then competition shooters.
Our guys are lacking because the military, as a system, caters to the lowest common denominator.
That said, some of the military is not lacking: I see them regularly at Rifles Only. But most of our guys are lacking because the pyramid is steeper than is the amount of real work necessary to be done.
if Camp Perry shooters are driving some high-dollar custom rigs vs. military issue rifles.....
Folks are reading....but they aren't understanding! The ORIGINAL POST fully stated that 'all the other skills' DID NOT come into play during the testing phase! Only shooting.....and accuracy assessment was the Order of the Day!! It all goes back to TRIGGER TIME!!
Being a wannabe does not stop when one gets the job or occupies the position.No matter what side you stand at there are always the wantabees, that’s the norm,
Being a wannabe does not stop when one gets the job or occupies the position.
He is an 0861, Fire Support Man (formal MOS name). Most call a Marine with this MOS a "Scout/Observer." Ask your buddy if he's an 0861, if he still gets all nervous he's probably full of shit.
Hey, whatever makes you spoiled-ass team shooters feel better about yourselves... THAT is what I want.
Of course you can shoot. You're on the shooting team. To think that you cannot shoot is moronic. Problem is you can't CRAWL and SHOOT and then CRAWL again. Or at least it's not very becoming of a team shooter.
And the reason snipers don't make team shooters is obvious; the absolute mind-blowing boredom of shooting at a paper target all day and then staring up and listening for a rifle crack so you can pull and mark a target. That's the OTHER half of the day. Between runs to the chow hall, that is...
Welcome to "Sniper's Hide". Not "Freshly-Mowed Firing Position".
;-]]
I will tell you I got to work with both the AMU and my sniper section and the AMU are a bunch of cocky a*******. My unit sent all of the snipers and SDMs so a 2 week course run by the AMU before our deployment and they thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. They treated everyone like idiots until me and my spotter went up to shoot. They asked us why were were doing stuff the way we were and we were like "ummmm because we are snipers?" Then they shut their mouths and let us work.
Welcome to "Sniper's Hide". Not "Freshly-Mowed Firing Position".
;-]]
Below is a link where "The Weapons & Materials Research Directorate of the Army Research Laboratory published a white paper of these efforts called Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis"
Shooting Skill: Snipers vs. Competition Shooters | Firearm User Network
Basically, the paper reported the difference between Snipers and High Power (including 1000 yard HP ) competitors. The results will surprise many people on these forums, though I'm not one that was surprised.
Because I have a bit of experience in both sniping and competition I was asked my thoughts on this from a guy on another forum. As I said, I'm not surprised of the results. I've ran several sniper schools, the problem is once a person attends the school, they quit. I don't mean totally, but they don't practice their craft near to the point of a High Power shooter, both in practice and competition.
A high power shooter will practice several hours for each hour he spends in competition. You just don't see that with snipers. I've had sniper students who "got hooked" and took up High Power, hitting me up for ammo and support ( I was also running the AK NG Marksmanship Unit as I was running sniper schools), Some, should I say most, I never heard of again unless they want to attend another course for "for a refresher". The HP shooter/sniper didn't need a refresher.
This only deals with the shooting aspect of sniping, not the observation/scouting aspect, but that too needs practice or its a lost art. I have guardsmen from urban areas and I had guardsmen from the Alaska Bush, mainly Alaska Natives who make their living off the land. Guess which one didn't need refreshers in observation/scouting.
Thats not an argument for snipers over shooters, because 'SSG G' can shoot. But what makes him valuable as a sniper is that he is also a gentleman.
Thats not an argument for snipers over shooters, because 'SSG G' can shoot. But what makes him valuable as a sniper is that he is also a gentleman.
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I'm still in Alaska, you AINT.
Natives are the sorriest of hunters and sorriest of shooters. You may have had a cultural experience while up here, but you failed to recognize shooting talent. A native with an atlatl is not anything more than a hunter going ten percent and getting lucky by feeding the village for a week.
Please don't try to tie the marksmanship programs with anything resembling native "marksmanship".
I'm still in Alaska, you AINT.
I had a chuckle at that.Please don't try to tie the marksmanship programs with anything resembling native "marksmanship".
The environment at the OP hotel in Ramadi in 2006 was indeed bench shooting: In shorts and flip-flops, with free coffee and a window air conditioner.I was just saying that it would be nice to see how the scores stack up when the bench shooters have to get up and rely on their ability to handle stress while having to deal with shooting like the modern sniper would have to. Some may do well, but I would bet several wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. So I think it has to do with the environment as well as the skill set.
There was a cultural issue with the training
I'm aware shooting isn't all there is to it, the article was addressing the shooting part. If you can't shoot then you might as well just get in a recon plt.
I'm aware of that, but I'm also aware that if you can't shoot on the range you wont be able to shoot when the chips are down.
That is true with any group of people you're training. Its the instructor's responsibility to understand the culture difference and adjust his training accordingly.
A good example. I was trying to instruct Natives in Patrol Orders (op orders, warning orders, patrol planning 'n such). They had no idea what I was trying to convey.
So I had them break up in groups with a boat captain (senior individual in a hunting party) and write down all they go through in planning a whale hunt. Including planning, supplies, actions, etc.
When they did this, I took their written plans and compared them to the Patrol Orders I was tying to get them to understand. They were basically the same. After that, they had no problem understand patrol orders.
The biggest problem with people trying to instruct natives is the superior attitude we present. "I'm better then you, I can shoot better then you" etc. You get over that attitude you wont have any problems conducting the class.
That's the same for any group of people.
Where is it written you can't do both? It would improve your abilities on both ends of the spectrum.
The will to win means nothing if you don't have the will to prepare.
A GOOD sniper will do what he has to to complete his mission, to include training his subordinates and his replacement. Knowledge is power and useless unless shared.
You either have the drive and desire to be a champion or you don't.
"I tried" goes so far. "Champions go home and f@ck the Homecoming Queen."
A diploma on the wall doesn't mean you've kept up with it or you were driven to succeed and excel.
These guys are just a few who have proven, undisputed records both on the KD range and in combat.
Distinguished Rifleman and Wimbledon Champion:
Multiple-year champions, Fort Benning International Sniper Competition (Distinguished Riflemen and President's Hundred -- note the 3rd Ranger Battalion scrolls):
USAMU pistol shooters as Fort Benning International Sniper Champions:
SFC Lance DeMent, Triple Distinguished, Olympian, President's Match Champion, former 2nd Ranger Battalion SOTIC sniper:
The late MSG Jared Van Aalst, former 3rd Ranger Battalion Sniper Platoon Sergeant, Double Distinguished, US Army Champion, former NCOIC US Army Sniper School, Delta Operator:
The late SFC Tung Nguyen, Distinguished Pistol Shot, JSOC Pistol Champion, US Army Long Range Champion (Sniper rifle):
I remember with pride sitting in the back of a room during a mission brief when I overheard a couple of the new snipers whispering about a few of the guys in the photos above -- "Man, those guys are some KILLING Muldoons."
All depends on the perspective from where you're sitting.
I live less than 3 miles from my PD range. I would go there and shoot multiple times a week if I could. Problem is, I am only allowed to go there when supervised by a "qualified" range instructor, none of whom are snipers.. I asked if I could send myself to instructor school to be able to shoot on my own time..... nope.
To say barriers sometimes exist would be an understatement.
And before I get any "where there is a will there is a way" bullshit I can say I spend 5-7k of my money every year on training/gear. I work hundreds of hours of OT to pay for it. With all that, I am still nowhere as good as I would like to be.
I live less than 3 miles from my PD range. I would go there and shoot multiple times a week if I could. Problem is, I am only allowed to go there when supervised by a "qualified" range instructor, none of whom are snipers.. I asked if I could send myself to instructor school to be able to shoot on my own time..... nope.
To say barriers sometimes exist would be an understatement.
And before I get any "where there is a will there is a way" bullshit I can say I spend 5-7k of my money every year on training/gear. I work hundreds of hours of OT to pay for it. With all that, I am still nowhere as good as I would like to be.
And before I get any "where there is a will there is a way" bullshit I can say I spend 5-7k of my money every year on training/gear. I work hundreds of hours of OT to pay for it. With all that, I am still nowhere as good as I would like to be.
You know that Wisconsin has some of the best barrel makers and long-range shooters in the nation, correct?
2013 Wisconsin and 10-state calendars:
Wisconsin Rifle & Pistol Assn, Highpower Rifle Page
http://www.illinoishighpower.org/10-state_schedule/2013 10 State, 2013-03-12.pdf
200 yard Any Rifle/Any Sight is almost designed for cops.