I am looking for an alternative to H4350, something cooler. Have you guys had success with this cartridge using slower burning powders? I am also not terribly worried about velocity. If they run 2750, I don't care. The numbers show they are nearly identical to my 142gr SMK load at the same speed and I am more than fine with that. Faster would be better obviously but I am not going to chase it. Thanks!
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Slow/Cool powder for 6mm Creed with 115 DTACs?
- Thread starter Notdylan
- Start date
N160 and HV100 are some of the coolest burning powders, though a bit temp sensitive. Another - I can't have my cake and eat it too, scenarios.
If I do 6x47L again I'm going to experiment with them, especially for steel and practice with a reduced load.
If I do 6x47L again I'm going to experiment with them, especially for steel and practice with a reduced load.
Hodgdon shows a 6 Creed load using a 115 vld with 48.0 gr of h1000 running 2944. That is their max compressed load. Starting load is 43.2 @ 2687. From what I've read online these #'s are optimistic but I think I'll give it a try.
"I just ran up a velocity ladder test to see what this rifle was capable of running H4831sc. I’ve got a 28” Bartlein 7.5 twist and here are my results with 110 SMKs and Peterson brass. Slight pressure signs as 45gr.
42gr- 2940fps
42.3gr- 2953fps
42.6gr- 2968fps
42.9gr- 3018fps
43.2gr- 3051fps
43.5gr- 3053fps
43.8gr- 3098fps
44.1gr- 3117fps
44.4gr- 3120fps
44.7gr- 3144fps
45gr- 3172fps "
from the depot. H4831SC with the 110 SMK, but it would be a starting point
also, note that a lot of us go well beyond the 'book' max numbers because we have freebores setup to load them a lot longer. it makes a difference.
hodgon shows max load with the 140 AMAX at 40gr in a 6.5 Creed below 2,600fps (below factory 140 ELDM velocity from most guns). that's where i'd start and push to about 44-45gr in a ladder
42gr- 2940fps
42.3gr- 2953fps
42.6gr- 2968fps
42.9gr- 3018fps
43.2gr- 3051fps
43.5gr- 3053fps
43.8gr- 3098fps
44.1gr- 3117fps
44.4gr- 3120fps
44.7gr- 3144fps
45gr- 3172fps "
from the depot. H4831SC with the 110 SMK, but it would be a starting point
also, note that a lot of us go well beyond the 'book' max numbers because we have freebores setup to load them a lot longer. it makes a difference.
hodgon shows max load with the 140 AMAX at 40gr in a 6.5 Creed below 2,600fps (below factory 140 ELDM velocity from most guns). that's where i'd start and push to about 44-45gr in a ladder
I have a new creedmoor and am trying 110s in Lapua brass. My results:
45.0 grains of powder only got me to 2885. SD 6. I tried to put 47.0 and it would have been severely compressed so I gave up on that powder.
I have worked up to 43.8 grains of H4831sc and got a velocity of 2950. I am going to push higher but may run into compressed brass issues.
Bullets are seated to a .010" jump and COAL of 2.875"
45.0 grains of powder only got me to 2885. SD 6. I tried to put 47.0 and it would have been severely compressed so I gave up on that powder.
I have worked up to 43.8 grains of H4831sc and got a velocity of 2950. I am going to push higher but may run into compressed brass issues.
Bullets are seated to a .010" jump and COAL of 2.875"
Fifteen years ago, I researched cool burning powders for Howa bolt .223. Winchester 748 was one of them. It was a great combination for prairie dogs, problem was it left a lot of soot. That being said, it didn't seem to affect accuracy. I tried lots of other powders but kept coming back to W748. It would probably be on the fast side for the 6 Creed with heavy bullet but W760 might be an acceptable alternative to try. Because of the soot/carbon, I wouldn't want to use the Winchester in an AR.
Has anyone used IMR 4451 in the 6 Creed? Maybe with a lighter 6mm? It was just too slow for my 6.5.
we run N160 in the 243s and 6SLRs here. Flame temp is very low (like h1000) and getting 3100+ is easy. (28"-30" tubes) This requires coated bullets though. Not sure what water capacity is on the creed, but it's probably very close to SLR.
I always had great luck with the H100v powder in my 243 with 105s. I now use it in the 6mm CM with 105s and works well.
I know 4451 is supposed to be like H4350 but in my testing I found it much slower.
6mm creed at 2750 seems like it defeats the purpose? That's like running 86 octane fuel in a sports car. If it's recoil I could understand but why else?
I'm not aiming for that velocity I just noticed that the ballistics, at even that slow of a speed, are acceptable for me. 2900+ with a slower powder would be ideal.
Not in the 6mm creed but in 243win Lapua brass H100V was the most consistent I've found so far with 105 class bullets running easily to 3100fps and zero pressure signs out of a 26" barrel. It behaved very similar with both the 105amax and 105 Scenars delivering several loads with each at or under .5 MOA with minimal load work.
It would be worth a look in my opinion given the similar capacities of the two.
It would be worth a look in my opinion given the similar capacities of the two.
I think CD meant slower burning powder, not slower velocity.
He was talking about the actual flame temps not being the same thing as combustion rates for one part of that. And the hotter the powder burns the more it would erode the throat.
For the other aspect about less pressure I have heard that when you dont use enough or have too much space that powder can act weird and do funky things. But thats mainly shotgun and pistol powders that Ive heard it in reference to but reduced loads also have the same disclaimer.
Yes. Thats what I mean. At the same pressure you aren't saving barrel. Don't forget about muzzle devices either though. Your can is not going to like 45g of h1000 on a 20inch barrel in a 243. I see slower burn rates equated to cooler burning a lot, and there is a difference.
Not that there is really anything definitive enough out there on barrel life to say for sure. Maybe at 60k psi the slower powder will burn less barrel. Its really picking fly shit out of pepper. Just burn it up and replace it. Don't burn it up looking for the perfect load so the barrel will last a little longer. I am just speaking from what I read looking for a magic 3k round 6mm. I went with a 243AI, fire formed the brass, and then sold it all, and kept shooting my .308.....Its easy to get 3k out of a .308....
Not that there is really anything definitive enough out there on barrel life to say for sure. Maybe at 60k psi the slower powder will burn less barrel. Its really picking fly shit out of pepper. Just burn it up and replace it. Don't burn it up looking for the perfect load so the barrel will last a little longer. I am just speaking from what I read looking for a magic 3k round 6mm. I went with a 243AI, fire formed the brass, and then sold it all, and kept shooting my .308.....Its easy to get 3k out of a .308....
Norma MRP works good, be careful on lighter charges as your burn will be incomplete, deposit hard carbon in the barrel.
He was talking about the actual flame temps not being the same thing as combustion rates for one part of that. And the hotter the powder burns the more it would erode the throat.
For the other aspect about less pressure I have heard that when you dont use enough or have too much space that powder can act weird and do funky things. But thats mainly shotgun and pistol powders that Ive heard it in reference to but reduced loads also have the same disclaimer.
Spife,
Have you seen any flame temp data for the new IMR Enduron powders? I see they aren't on the chart you posted and when I checked the IMR website the available data didn't show it. I did ask IMR for a link or an e-mail. If they send it to me, I'll post it here.
Nope, only that one. I doubt that IMR or powder co would send it to you. I want to say that the chart above was pulled out of quickload? Not sure if thats right or not, its not my chart, just pulled off the internet.
He was talking about the actual flame temps not being the same thing as combustion rates for one part of that. And the hotter the powder burns the more it would erode the throat.
For the other aspect about less pressure I have heard that when you dont use enough or have too much space that powder can act weird and do funky things. But thats mainly shotgun and pistol powders that Ive heard it in reference to but reduced loads also have the same disclaimer.
So that is very different than what I expected. I was looking to use H4831sc over H4350 to save barre life. However according to the above, that's not the case at all. Anyone have experience between the two?
they don't exactly have the same burn rate
also, does that 110 degrees make a difference? 3 percent?
I've never been an H4350 fan, mostly in part not wanting to fight the masses for it, always something else that will work.
You try H4831 in 6 creed, don't think you will like, it will be extremely dirty, never get a decent burn unless packed full, not sure on what performance you are looking for.
I tried 4831 in a friends 6 creed, short lived, in a pressure test, I fired 12 rds, 2 each of selected charges with my magneto hanging off the end. The last shot did not pick up, I looked up and saw the magneto falling off the suppressor, melting the strap. I felt the barrel, it was warm, not hot. My take it is it was from unburned powder going down the barrel and accumulating in the can and burning there, the can was hot, real hot.
I dont in a 6 creed but I will say that I wouldnt use 4831 myself provided I have alternative choices.
I leave the 4831 to long cases like 270 with heavier bullets.
Really? Thats some good info to know.
Makes me glad that when bullets.com was going out of business they only had the 1 lb jugs on sale for $20 since I hope that it will last for the next decade. Those extras will stay sealed and stored away.
I have experience with H1000 and VVN165 in a 6mm Creedmoor with both 105 Berger's and 115 Dtacs
Listed as powder charge then velocity - All with magneto speed.
24" Hawk Hill 1:8 Twist - Berger 105 Hybrid
N165
46.8 -3182
H1000
46 - 3111
46.5 -3139
26" Bartlein 1-7.5 Twist - 115 Dtac RBT
N165
47 - 3056 ( New barrel)
H1000
47 - 2920 (new barrel)
47- 3011 (Same barrel after 200 rounds)
Do some searches for 'Joe Hendricks and the 6mm Competition Match' cartridge, he talks a lot about preserving barrel life with slower burning powders. I cannot comment on the barrel life part of it yet.
Listed as powder charge then velocity - All with magneto speed.
24" Hawk Hill 1:8 Twist - Berger 105 Hybrid
N165
46.8 -3182
H1000
46 - 3111
46.5 -3139
26" Bartlein 1-7.5 Twist - 115 Dtac RBT
N165
47 - 3056 ( New barrel)
H1000
47 - 2920 (new barrel)
47- 3011 (Same barrel after 200 rounds)
Do some searches for 'Joe Hendricks and the 6mm Competition Match' cartridge, he talks a lot about preserving barrel life with slower burning powders. I cannot comment on the barrel life part of it yet.
I had about the same experience as milo trying to run 4831sc in a 23" 6.5 creedmoor. Very hot, very dirty suppressor. With gunk migrating to the chamber and preventing rounds from chambering.
Thanks for the reply! When you mentioned QuickLoad I realized I had purchased and installed it on my PC, so I checked the propellant data and found four of the five IMR Enduron powders listed: IMR7977=3660, IMR4166=3920, IMR4955=3950, IMR4451=3990, IMR8133=no data.
I like 4831sc over 4350 in my hot 243 loads. More consistent and more consistent means less shots fired. Less shots fired is longer barrel life.
Can I expect the same issues with a can using H1000 like others have mentioned with 4831? I had planned on shooting the rifle suppressed regularly.
You also have more case capacity than the creed case, so irrelevant in this application.
I don't mean gunk so much as carbon and unburned powder. I only ran that combo for a couple hundred rounds, then i switched back to 4000mr for that combo, then I got some RL15 and 123s for it. Now I have some H4350 that it really likes with the 140 amax. I shot 4831sc for about 500 ads in my 26" remage barrel and never had any problems or noticed the suppressor getting hot really fast. I have never cleaned my suppressor.
I can't say that, barrel length plays a big part. Short barrel maybe not, long better chance. Do you clean your barrel? Lot of factors here.
I've had great luck with RL16 which I've been using heavily this year with 4350 running low. Have also used 4831SC with some success. RL16 has been great for speed/consistency with 110SMKs. 3035fps with 40.7gr and Hornady brass, low SD and no issues with big temp swings. One thing I've noticed and some others have been having issues with is RL16 seems to leave more junk in the bore and brake, and can leave some nasty carbon rings quite quickly.
I had that problem with 4000mr in the 6,5 creed and 22-250.
I wonder if RL15, 4166, or 8208 would burn throat slower than Varget. Varget is well known for being a throat burner. I wanted a Dasher, but I remembered your thread, where you were chasing the lands in your dasher, and it seemed finicky. I still have 2k 6mm bullets around to use, but no 6mm. I think this thread has inadvertently pushed my to a plane jane 243win, or 6mm creed. Apparently I need to use up my open 8lb 4831sc.
That chart posted on the previous page with all the burn rates I would take with a large grain of salt. Ive seen it around before and also the burn rate/heat index numbers in quickload should be taken with a grain of salt. The reason why is if you look up H4350 in quickload in gives you the heat index of 3760, if you look up ADI 2209 which is the exact same powder made in Australia it has a heat index closer to 4000 from memory. This is obviously different lots being tested but shows just how big a difference there can be with the same powder.
The figure showing H4350 as 3760 would make one think it is much cooler burning than it actually is depending on lot. Ive been over this many times with my 6.5x47l on whether to use Varget or H4350 in my 6.5x47l both give excellent results but my gut feeling is varget may burn the throat sooner who knows. I also have reloder 16 which I will be starting load development for soon enough. Varget and Reloder 16 both burn 95% of powder in under 10 inches where as H4350 burns 95% at approx. 15 inches.
The figure showing H4350 as 3760 would make one think it is much cooler burning than it actually is depending on lot. Ive been over this many times with my 6.5x47l on whether to use Varget or H4350 in my 6.5x47l both give excellent results but my gut feeling is varget may burn the throat sooner who knows. I also have reloder 16 which I will be starting load development for soon enough. Varget and Reloder 16 both burn 95% of powder in under 10 inches where as H4350 burns 95% at approx. 15 inches.
So I was the original poster of the velocity ladder test that was posted earlier. Since then I’ve gained more experience with this load.
I’ve got 1200 rounds now down my 7.5t 28” Bartlein 6 Creedmoor. As one poster stated previously, I believe that the benefits to running H4831sc are exaggerated while running a longer barrel.
I recently decided to get away from running 110 SMKs and ordered up 1500 DTACs. For the hell of it, I guessed at a load of 42.8gr of H4831sc and loaded the bullet to .020” jump. Mind you, this is chambered for the .109 freebore of the SMK so the bullet is seated fairly deep.
I shot 5 rds at 300yds in a 1.4” group with an ES of 9 and SD of 3.3. My velocity was 3023. I now plan on chambering specifically for the DTAC and I’m sure I can push it harder and more accurately. I seriously can’t believe that more people aren’t using this powder.
Also, in 1200rds, I’ve lost .005” of throat while running the 110 SMKs.
I’ve got 1200 rounds now down my 7.5t 28” Bartlein 6 Creedmoor. As one poster stated previously, I believe that the benefits to running H4831sc are exaggerated while running a longer barrel.
I recently decided to get away from running 110 SMKs and ordered up 1500 DTACs. For the hell of it, I guessed at a load of 42.8gr of H4831sc and loaded the bullet to .020” jump. Mind you, this is chambered for the .109 freebore of the SMK so the bullet is seated fairly deep.
I shot 5 rds at 300yds in a 1.4” group with an ES of 9 and SD of 3.3. My velocity was 3023. I now plan on chambering specifically for the DTAC and I’m sure I can push it harder and more accurately. I seriously can’t believe that more people aren’t using this powder.
Also, in 1200rds, I’ve lost .005” of throat while running the 110 SMKs.
