Rifle Scopes Stripped Spuhr Screw

#51
357Max said:
Before getting into what my issue was I have 2 questions.
  • Does your PRS-1 have the mini chassis?
  • Did you make sure your recoil lug was in contact with the chassis lug when you torqued the action screws?? If not, even a few thousands gap & 65 inch pounds is not enough (not even close) to prevent the lug from hammering (exaggerated) the chassis lug every shot. I.E. it will fuck up barrel harmonics. The action needs to be pulled back so the lug is in hard contact when the action screws are torqued. Some guys snug the screws and then stand up and bounce gun on the recoil pad to seat it before final torque. My choice would be to use a strap wrapped around top front of pic rail - down behind trigger guard, thus pulling the action down and back.
Like you, I caught the bug for long range precision. I needed wanted a new precision bolt gun. Acctualy I caught it bad (3 more builds in the works, all snipers hide's fault). Pretty funny considering I haven't shot a bolt gun in 15-20 years. Everything has been auto loaders. Slug gun = Benelli SBE with Shaw rifled barrel, Meat rifle = Rem 7400 35 Whelen, Mini 14, Ar 15's, Ar 10, 10/22 etc.

I will try to summarize & will likely start a thread with the longer version, but here goes.

My Manners issue is a Zebra of different stripes (Steyr THB Manners 6.5 Creed). My plan is to try this in production class PRS. Bought it new & before going to the range, I'd planned to pull the barreled action to drill the stock for an arca rail. I noticed the barrel wasn't centered in the barrel channel. It wasn't touching anywhere, just not centered.

What I found was the barrel was in contact with the channel at bottom just in front of the lug. This wasn't letting the action settle all the way down into the V block chassis (that was my theory). No biggie, I just relieved that area & mocked it back up. With the action screws snug, I could still slide the barrel/front of action side to side in the channel = about 1/8" @ front of stock. O my, WTF is going on here?

My understanding of how the mini chassis works is that its suppose to provide 6 points of contact + recoil lug. 2 x V block @ front of action, 2 x V block rear action, 1 x radius bottom rear, 1 x radius bottom front, + recoil lug.

In my case the action was hitting the 3 points of contact at the rear, and none at the front except for the recoil lug and the flat shelf behind my lug. That "shelf" part of the chassis was to high by .0035 holding the action up out of the v block & resulted in all that side to side slop. I wound up milling the shelf on the mini chassis down .040 & bedding recoil lug area with Pro bed 2000 (for like $12 you get everything needed). I now have full chassis contact & the bedding will not allow any for/aft movement.

The test group that came with the rifle was 3 shots .7 MOA with factory Hornady 147 ELD-M & I'm assuming that was a machine or fixture rest. My first (and only) attempt at a group during barrel break in (shots 20-25) was 5 shots .4 MOA @ 100 with Factory 147 ELD-M. That was off a bench with bi-pod, rear bag, and auto loader extrodinare pulling the trigger. Pretty sure I'd flunk the shooter evaluation @ one of Frank's classes (not the safety part).

Based on factory test target, I'm sure I'd have been shooting 1+ MOA 5 shot groups & been very disappointed, had I not caught the problem and fixed it.
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Gen 2 mini-chassis ... yes.

Tapped rifle butt on ground a few times to seat the lug against the stock before torquing the screws. Did I use candle wax or a sharpie to verify that the lug correctly seated against the chassis? No, but I did what you're supposed to do in order to make sure the action/barrel are pressed rearward before tightening things down. However, you note that might not be enough. I'm hoping this weekend the weather is decent, if it is, and if my builder (email is already out to him) doesn't ask me to ship the rig to him, I'm going to give your suggestion a shot after trying my son's scope (don't want to introduce two variables at once, I won't know which fixed it assuming one of them does).

Thanks for your story. I can see in my head what you're saying. I'm working-from-home right now, but when I take a break for lunch I'm going to pull the rifle out of the safe and check for any side to side or up/down play between the barrel and channel. Thank you greatly for the help/assistance.
 
#52
19Scout77 said:
There are actually a TON of extremely skilled shooters in the NYC area...we just tend to avoid idiots...of which there are also a metric buttload. If you are spending all your time at Cherry Ridge or Calverton and spent $3500 for a $2000-2800 scope you likely fall into the latter category.
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Spent $1800 since I had a 50% off coupon but had to buy through Leupold direct. And yes, Cherry Ridge it fantastic. It has a dedicated .22LR range which is everything to my wife and oldest son since they don't like the volume/concussion of the bigger calibers.

And while I'm sure there are some extremely skilled shooters in the NYC area, as you know, NYC guys can be nice or total pieces of shit. You likely fall into the latter category.
 
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#53
pmclaine said:
Dude going through all that there is no way there can be any enjoyment.

Sell that Motherfucker and make your wife happy.

For short money by a Dicks "Getting away from Guns" ADL Varmint R700 in .308 - $350.

Buy a used chassis/stock here in the PX - $700

Buy a used scope here in the PX and tell them to include rings, make sure it has a mil reticle with as much elevation in mils you can get, who cares if it doesnt track if you can hold - $700

Buy a case of 168 FGMM from @Bdomar - $410

Less than $2200 invested and you will be shooting 1/2 MOA as long as you do your part.

This is supposed to be enjoyable.

Maybe you will find more satisfaction in the "Boating" hobby.
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$2200 or $8500, it doesn't make a difference. She will always see my hobbies as a waste of money and I will have a fight on my hands. I will always see travel (her hobby) as a waste of money and she will always have a fight on her hands.

So if I have to fight, might as well fight for gold. Otherwise, I'll just sit there looking at my $2200 rifle and the hell I went through to get it, kicking myself for not going for the full Monty. Trust me on this, been there, done that.
 
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#54
OP, I had a similar tribulation with my JP LRP-07. I couldn’t get it to shoot....a couple hundred rounds in and I was spraying them all over (1-1.5moa)

I was getting very discouraged. Until i ran into JP sponsored shooter at the Pawnee Sportsman complex in Northern Colorado (didn’t get his name but I owe him a beer) I told him my sob story & his first advise was double check torque on my Spuhr & scope.

Now I work a fairly mechanical type job & torqued everything down to spec with my trusty Borka torque kit. So I had zero suspicion until I walked back to my bench. My spuhr was wiggling like a loose tooth. Torqued her back up & she has shot like a JP should ever since. Lol humbling experience for me for sure.

That is why you are getting bombarded with seemingly accusatory advise. We aren’t being dicks, it is just that with modern tech & a good smith it is more likely that the problem is Indian not the arrow.

There is good advise here. Triple check all your screws for proper torque. (When Milehigh gets you fixed up. Which they will)
Find a decent shooter & let him/her give it a test drive.
Or Weight the boom stick down with sandbags & remove shooter influence from the shot. You will find the culprit.....it maybe something easy. It maybe you but that just means you need more practice & that it the fun part. Good Luck
 
#56
siscoe308 said:
OP, I had a similar tribulation with my JP LRP-07. I couldn’t get it to shoot....a couple hundred rounds in and I was spraying them all over (1-1.5moa)

I was getting very discouraged. Until i ran into JP sponsored shooter at the Pawnee Sportsman complex in Northern Colorado (didn’t get his name but I owe him a beer) I told him my sob story & his first advise was double check torque on my Spuhr & scope.

Now I work a fairly mechanical type job & torqued everything down to spec with my trusty Borka torque kit. So I had zero suspicion until I walked back to my bench. My spuhr was wiggling like a loose tooth. Torqued her back up & she has shot like a JP should ever since. Lol humbling experience for me for sure.

That is why you are getting bombarded with seemingly accusatory advise. We aren’t being dicks, it is just that with modern tech & a good smith it is more likely that the problem is Indian not the arrow.

There is good advise here. Triple check all your screws for proper torque. (When Milehigh gets you fixed up. Which they will)
Find a decent shooter & let him/her give it a test drive.
Or Weight the boom stick down with sandbags & remove shooter influence from the shot. You will find the culprit.....it maybe something easy. It maybe you but that just means you need more practice & that it the fun part. Good Luck
Click to expand...

I've done far more than triple-check my screws for torque. Those few dozen hours I mentioned pulling everything apart, most of that was removing and re-torquing everything down a few times. What I said 'no' to, was one person's suggestion of torquing things down higher than recommended by Spuhr out of my fear of stripping the screws, caps, or damaging the scope.

While at the range on Saturday, and again at home that evening, I grabbed the scope and twisted/pulled on it trying to get it to rock, twist, or move at all and could not. It is mounted solid. It has been re-torqued, as has the action, at least 4 times in the past three months as I've tried to figure out if anything is wrong with the rig.

And I'm not being bombarded with accusatory advise. Most of it is quite constructive, and I'm thankful for it. I've got one moron who can't read, and another who is your typical NY asshole. Not a bother, every forum's got a few of them.

I am following most everyone's advise so far that I can, other than to add 10 lbs of additional torque to my Spuhr cap screws. If the scope was loose in any way at all, if I could twist it at all inside the rings with my hands, then yes, I would consider tightening them down. But I can't. It feels as solid to the rifle as the barrel does to the action. Trust me, I'm hoping more than everyone that its the Indian and not the arrow. The Indian I can fix almost for free, the arrow likely not so much.


Correction, I've got two morons who can't read. One of whom is your typical NY asshole. Neither a bother, every forum's got a few of them.
 
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#58
19Scout77 said:
May be a piece of shit...but I possess both a torque wrench and a clue. Enjoy your bench shooting and stretching it out to a whopping 300 yards.
Click to expand...

It's where I did my zero and load workup/groups you half-wit. I'm not driving two hours to SheepDog for that. And I didn't originally put you in the illiterate category. My bad, no worries, I've added you.
 
#59
Shoot without brake. See if it changes. Then shoot with double ear pro and brake on. One will eliminate chance of muzzle/brake threads. Both will tell if you developed a flinch. When I first went to a brake, I flinched because of the concussion.
 
#62
srt-4_uk said:
Shoot without brake. See if it changes. Then shoot with double ear pro and brake on. One will eliminate chance of muzzle/brake threads. Both will tell if you developed a flinch. When I first went to a brake, I flinched because of the concussion.
Click to expand...

That's fair. Double-ear pro doesn't seem necessary as my plugs do a great job of sealing things off, sounds is more than comfortable. But the blast to the face one gets might be worth a little something.

As far as the brake causing an issue, I've looked at it carefully with a torch looking for any signs that anything is contacting the brake and found nothing. I've seen when bullets strike brakes before and there's copper left behind on the brake ... not happening here.
 
#63
If brake isn’t concentric, might not cause a bullet strike but can cause accuracy issues.
Easy to take off, easy to put back on.

Break down to most basic system possible, then start adding pieces back to current configuration to identify the issue.
 
#66
BTW - My set up also has an area 419 Hellfire & Spuhr 4601 holding 48oz worth of Vortex Razor Gen2.

A simple test you could try. Torque action screws 50inch pounds and shoot some groups (factory ammo), go up with torque in 5inch pound increments and shoot a few more.

I was very hesitant to bed it in the Manners. That's suppose to be the whole point of the mini chassis (I thought). Had my action fit nice and snug in the chassis I'd have probably never gone down this path (might of been a blessing in disguise). The more I thought about it, bedding started to make sense. If you break it down, 65inch pounds = 5.4 ft pounds.
So if I were to get a little aggressive slamming barricade stop, would 2 x 5.4ft pound screws really keep 9lb of barreled action/scope/mount from sliding a few thousands forward? I don't think it would.

More evidence that led me to bedding decision was researching what some of the good smiths were doing. LRI for example takes a blank Manners and 3d mills them to fit action like a glove, yet they still bed them.

Accuracy International AW action is bolted and epoxied to the stock.

I bedded the first 3/8" of the barrel back to front v block section of mini chassis.
 
#67
357Max said:
BTW - My set up also has an area 419 Hellfire & Spuhr 4601 holding 48oz worth of Vortex Razor Gen2.

A simple test you could try. Torque action screws 50inch pounds and shoot some groups (factory ammo), go up with torque in 5inch pound increments and shoot a few more.

I was very hesitant to bed it in the Manners. That's suppose to be the whole point of the mini chassis (I thought). Had my action fit nice and snug in the chassis I'd have probably never gone down this path (might of been a blessing in disguise). The more I thought about it, bedding started to make sense. If you break it down, 65inch pounds = 5.4 ft pounds.
So if I were to get a little aggressive slamming barricade stop, would 2 x 5.4ft pound screws really keep 9lb of barreled action/scope/mount from sliding a few thousands forward? I don't think it would.

More evidence that led me to bedding decision was researching what some of the good smiths were doing. LRI for example takes a blank Manners and 3d mills them to fit action like a glove, yet they still bed them.

Accuracy International AW action is bolted and epoxied to the stock.

I bedded the first 3/8" of the barrel back to front v block section of mini chassis.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Email went out to builder on Saturday and hit him up via Facebook Messenger today. No response yet, but will see what he says first and go from there. I won't be able to get to the range till at least this weekend, so have some time to get his opinion.
 
#68
Builder got back to me today. We have a plan of action that hopefully, weather and Covid permitting, we get to try this weekend. Builder insist that sometimes the brake can do whacky things even without any direct contact by the bullet. So first is pull the brake, then I'll swap scopes, then re-seat action to stock using applied force (as opposed to traditional tap on ground and let gravity do its thing) to hold things in place.

Fingers are crossed. Thanks again to everyone that is helping.
 
#69
BillyNg said:
Builder got back to me today. We have a plan of action that hopefully, weather and Covid permitting, we get to try this weekend. Builder insist that sometimes the brake can do whacky things even without any direct contact by the bullet. So first is pull the brake, then I'll swap scopes, then re-seat action to stock using applied force (as opposed to traditional tap on ground and let gravity do its thing) to hold things in place.

Fingers are crossed. Thanks again to everyone that is helping.
Click to expand...
Had an Area 419 open up my groupings, so I personally know it can happen. Went back to my Lil Bastard brake and groups shrank, even with the bit more of recoil.
 
#70
DOA said:
Had an Area 419 open up my groupings, so I personally know it can happen. Went back to my Lil Bastard brake and groups shrank, even with the bit more of recoil.
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This thing's only a .308. Have never run a brake before on a caliber this small but figured why not, can't hurt. I have never even remotely heard anything about brakes damaging accuracy. Going to be kicking myself if this is it.
 
#72
@BillyNg I'm hesitant to even comment because this thread has turned into a bit of a shit show.

As others have stated, and I'll say it again: torque the Spuhr caps to 25 in-lb. You'd be surprised at how little torque 15 in-lb is. I have personal experience (as do many others) that wandering groups can be remedied by going from 15 to 20 to 25 in-lbs. It's right in the manual, "torque to 15-25 in-lbs".

And there's no need for loctite on the Spuhr cap screws, I don't know where you saw that. That is likely messing up your 15 in-lb applied value as well, especially if you cleaned them first.

And with regards to your wife, that was painful to read. But then you gave away the reason with your own gem "she likes to travel and I see that as a waste of money." What a f'ing surprise, you're an a-hole to her and she does it right back. Why don't you just let her enjoy her hobbies and spending money and maybe she'll do the same to you? F*ck.

1585333313051.png
 
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#74
BillyNg said:
I'm aware, I've had many.
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Well. If you are a competent and experienced shooter why would you waste “dozens of hours” screwing around with custom ammo and checking over the rifle?

If a custom rifle in a somewhat standard caliber won’t shoot factory ammo well then it is a pile of crap.

Should have returned it.
 
#75
samb300 said:
@BillyNg I'm hesitant to even comment because this thread has turned into a bit of a shit show.

As others have stated, and I'll say it again: torque the Spuhr caps to 25 in-lb. You'd be surprised at how little torque 15 in-lb is. I have personal experience (as do many others) that wandering groups can be remedied by going from 15 to 20 to 25 in-lbs. It's right in the manual, "torque to 15-25 in-lbs".

And there's no need for loctite on the Spuhr cap screws, I don't know where you saw that. That is likely messing up your 15 in-lb applied value as well, especially if you cleaned them first.

And with regards to your wife, that was painful to read. But then you gave away the reason with your own gem "she likes to travel and I see that as a waste of money." What a f'ing surprise, you're an a-hole to her and she does it right back. Why don't you just let her enjoy her hobbies and spending money and maybe she'll do the same to you? F*ck.

View attachment 7283192
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First. I can't twist the scope at all with force, nor is there any movement or perceived play in the scope. As mentioned, after discussing it with the builder, we have a plan of attach to track this down. If the brake ends up not having an effect, next up is scope. If my son's Vortex works better, I will give your solution a shot in small increments. If I go to 20 in-lbs and see no improvement whatsoever, I may not go to 25, but if there is some improvement I'll see where that leads me. Again, the scope is anything but loose and I'm using real force to try to get it to wiggle or simply roll/twist within the rings. Nothing, not even the hint of movement.

Now onto the other stuff. I've spent a little over $200K on vacations in the past 18 years and she has a current approved budget of $12K per year for our travel (not to mention the extra $10K 'gift' she got for her 40th birthday that she hasn't used yet). So no, I don't feel like I've been a a-hole to her at all. You too, can go scratch.
 
#76
LOL, you think the fact that you can't move the scope by hand means 15 in-lbs is sufficient to keep the scope from moving under recoil from a 308? OK dude, whatever. Make the easiest possible solution the last thing you try because...well, I have no idea.

You're the one that brought up your personal drama on a public forum. If you don't want to get unsolicited advice, then don't post it in the first place. And if you "allow" your wife to spend 12k per year on travel, but have to fight and grovel for one rifle over the course of multiple years, then don't expect to find sympathy here either.
 
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#77
deersniper said:
Well. If you are a competent and experienced shooter why would you waste “dozens of hours” screwing around with custom ammo and checking over the rifle?

If a custom rifle in a somewhat standard caliber won’t shoot factory ammo well then it is a pile of crap.

Should have returned it.
Click to expand...

Just making sure I cover all of my bases. He was responsible for action, barrel, brake, and chassis. I mounted the scope and removed action from chassis to mount up the rail and bipod. Wanted to make sure I tried enough ammo that he couldn't ask me to try different ammo first before shipping it back.

I've had custom guns before with issues. Things were not as easy as just "should have returned it". This time I went with arguably one of the best builders in the country - but I'm still making sure I cover my bases.
 
#78
samb300 said:
LOL, you think the fact that you can't move the scope by hand means 15 in-lbs is sufficient to keep the scope from moving under recoil from a 308? OK dude, whatever. Make the easiest possible solution the last thing you try because...well, I have no idea.

You're the one that brought up your personal drama on a public forum. If you don't want to get unsolicited advice, then don't post it in the first place. And if you "allow" your wife to spend 12k per year on travel, but have to fight and grovel for one rifle over the course of multiple years, then don't expect to find sympathy here either.
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Einstein,

You called me an 'a-hole' in your previous post. I love how you're now trying to take the high ground. I said nothing negative to you at all before that. I've said nothing negative to anyone who didn't directly insult me first. And there's a couple of guys who tried a direct insult with the "its you" comments, and I let those slide because I really do hope its me. But you decided I'm an a-hole, and in response, I told you to go scratch. I don't care who or where you scratch, but I really do want you to scratch.

Then you come back and state that I'm in the wrong for wanting 'unsolicited advice'. Say what? Are you really that stupid? Do you really believe that calling someone an a-hole would be considered 'advice' in any language? Or did you somehow believe that my telling you to go scratch was a response to your 25 in-lbs 'advice' and not the direct name calling? There's an ever mounting group of illiterate morons in this thread and you should be happy to know that I just added your highly ignorant a- to it.

I posted my frustration in my original post. Some internet commando tells me I'm over-reacting and I explain to him why I'm so pissed. I have no issues with what I said or that I laid out my private life on a public forum. I have done little more than respond in-kind to everyone; helpful responses were met with thanks and discussion, insults were met with insults. I have no issues at all with your response or anyone else's. It's my wife and my life. It's not at all my fault that a handful of idiots make a bunch of uneducated assumptions about my life because of small snippets that I post. I would never presume to know the full story of someone's almost 20 year marriage simply because he posts about the frustrations he had acquiring a rifle, but my IQ is much higher than the commando-mean in this thread which appears to hover somewhere in the low 60s. Your mileage may vary.

As far as fighting for a rifle, yes, I had to do that. But I don't fight for the two handgun training weekends I take each year, or the one to two sets of autocross tires I buy each year for the race season, or the really nice camera gear that I have (I'm my autocross club's photographer), or the 10K rounds of 9mm I shoot through each year which doesn't include the shotgun ammo or .22s. There's far more to my life than this f'ing rifle, and the collective inability of a bunch of online a-hats to grasp that is their problem, not mine. Acquiring this rifle has been frustrating, made even more so by its seeming inability to perform.

I asked for no sympathy, ever. Someone said I over-reacted, I didn't think I did, so I explained the reaction in detail. That's it. If you, and the small group of other jacka-es like you that have graced this thread with their presence need help understanding this, I would suggest Hooked on Phonics, your local Kumon, and the oft overlooked Rosetta Stone English. Best of luck with those.
 
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#79
BillyNg said:
Einstein,

You called me an 'a-hole' in your previous post. I love how you're now trying to take the high ground. I said nothing negative to you at all before that. I've said nothing negative to anyone who didn't directly insult me first. And there's a couple of guys who tried a direct insult with the "its you" comments, and I let those slide because I really do hope its me. But you decided I'm an a-hole, and in response, I told you to go scratch. I don't care who or where you scratch, but I really do want you to scratch.

Then you come back and state that I'm in the wrong for wanting 'unsolicited advice'. Say what? Are you really that stupid? Do you really believe that calling someone an a-hole would be considered 'advice' in any language? Or did you somehow believe that my telling you to go scratch was a response to your 25 in-lbs 'advice' and not the direct name calling? There's an ever mounting group of illiterate morons in this thread and you should be happy to know that I just added your highly ignorant a- to it.

I posted my frustration in my original post. Some internet commando tells me I'm over-reacting and I explain to him why I'm so pissed. I have no issues with what I said or that I laid out my private life on a public forum. I have done little more than respond in-kind to everyone; helpful responses were met with thanks and discussion, insults were met with insults. I have no issues at all with your response or anyone else's. It's my wife and my life. It's not at all my fault that a handful of idiots make a bunch of uneducated assumptions about my life because of small snippets that I post. I would never presume to know the full story of someone's almost 20 year marriage simply because he posts about the frustrations he had acquiring a rifle, but my IQ is much higher than the commando-mean in this thread which appears to hover somewhere in the low 60s. Your mileage may vary.

As far as fighting for a rifle, yes, I had to do that. But I don't fight for the two handgun training weekends I take each year, or the one to two sets of autocross tires I buy each year for the race season, or the really nice camera gear that I have (I'm my autocross club's photographer), or the 10K rounds of 9mm I shoot through each year which doesn't include the shotgun ammo or .22s. There's far more to my life than this f'ing rifle, and the collective inability of a bunch of online a-hats to grasp that is their problem, not mine. Acquiring this rifle has been frustrating, made even more so by its seeming inability to perform.

I asked for no sympathy, ever. Someone said I over-reacted, I didn't think I did, so I explained the reaction in detail. That's it. If you, and the small group of other jacka-es like you that have graced this thread with their presence need help understanding this, I would suggest Hooked on Phonics, your local Kumon, and the oft overlooked Rosetta Stone English. Best of luck with those.
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You’re my favorite type of person on the internet:
- Smarter than everyone else
- Richer than everyone else
- Buys the most expensive gear but has no clue how to use it
- Selectively ignores any advice that goes against what you already know is “right”

And yet, you came on here because you couldn’t figure out how to replace a $3 screw.

Have fun with your $8k rifle that won’t shoot. Please let us know when your wife gives you permission for that new Spuhr screw.

0344D568-E37A-4C8C-A210-FBEE38501F41.jpeg
 
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#80
You could have bought an AI or used rifle off here and been good to go

Who buys a new custom 308? The used market is awash with them. There’s a super nice GAP308 for $2500 in the for sale section right now.

I stand by the fact that if a custom .308 won’t shoot fgmm or Hornady well they should take it back and fix it. Buying custom ammo to try and get a 308 to shoot is retarted

And lol at the Dick measuring contest. There’s always someone stronger or in this case richer than you. Especially on this forum.
 
#84
I tried reading every post here, but fell asleep, my coffee chilled, and the snow keeps falling. However, my madness is/was prompted by your statement, paraphrased: rings to base 45 in/lbs... Any rings that fasten into a P rail should be at 65 in/lbs. Be nice if your dilemma was solved with this, but me thinks there's a "conspiracy of combinations convoluting the conundrum." Which is almost insurmountable. Best of luck to you, and stay healthy.
 
#85
I should have remained semi-comatose. After my entry I went back to where I left off; OMG what happened here? Anyway I'm not familiar with Sphur so now--if only to save face (?)--I should attach pics referencing, and possibly defending, my earlier statement. The rings are at 25 in/lbs as are the 8-40 base screws, but the 5/16x24 (1/2 socket required) ring to base screws are 65 in/lbs.
 

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#86
My recommendation: I'd take whatever ammo you shot 0.6 MOA with, get about 100 rnds of that, go and shoot 10 10 round groups as best you can, with a clear mind and as best you can forgetting the frustration you have.

If you still average 0.6 MOA, then your rifle is fine. What's more important is you will know it's fine and it's important to have that confidence.

My hunch is there is absolutely nothing wrong with the rifle, so it is mostly likely useless to fidget with things like torque this, take that off, put this on.

If none of that works sell the parts and buy an AI.
 
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#88
srt-4_uk said:
Shoot without brake. See if it changes. Then shoot with double ear pro and brake on. One will eliminate chance of muzzle/brake threads. Both will tell if you developed a flinch. When I first went to a brake, I flinched because of the concussion.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding ... winner winner chicken dinner. Not exactly what you were thinking though. I'll post up details in a few seconds.
 
#89
samb300 said:
You’re my favorite type of person on the internet:
- Smarter than everyone else
- Richer than everyone else
- Buys the most expensive gear but has no clue how to use it
- Selectively ignores any advice that goes against what you already know is “right”

And yet, you came on here because you couldn’t figure out how to replace a $3 screw.

Have fun with your $8k rifle that won’t shoot. Please let us know when your wife gives you permission for that new Spuhr screw.

View attachment 7283686
Click to expand...

- No, that was you. Read your posts
- No, moron on page 1 literally called me poor. Its on the internet, must be true.
- No ... more info on that one in a second.
- None of your advice was right cause you're a tool. No one else's either with 1 exception but not for the reason he thought.

Again, you can't read (work on that, seriously, it'll help in you get through life in many ways). Manufacturer says I have to get from MHS, MHS doesn't have them on their web site. Call me crazy, but when I have products to sell and I have a web site, I put all the products there. MHS took care of me, and I already thanked all of the actually nice human beings who suggested I call them.

March, wife gave me permission in March.
 
#90
For those that want to know what it was.

I emailed Mark @ SAC back in March, a few hours after coming back from that last range session and discussing things with Andrew McCourt, and about 2 hours before this cluster-fudge of a thread got started. It took him a few days to respond, but when he did he said this:

This is Mark. I'm sorry to hear that the rifle is not shooting the way it should be. Andrew makes really good ammunition, so if It's not shooting with his, it sounds like there is something wrong. First thing I would do is just remove the brake and see if you can get it to put together a good group with out the brake on. We have seen issues where in some brakes just make rifles inaccurate, I know it seems like a formality, but we need you to test it with out the brake before anything else. If the rifle still doesn't shoot and you know the the action is pulled back into the stock so the recoil lug is seated, the action screws are torqued, scope is proven and good to go, scope mounts/rings are good and tight and the bolt handle is not touching anything, especially when it is locked in to position, then we can get the rifle back and see what is going on with it.

Let me know your thoughts and we will make sure you get taken care of. Stay safe!
Click to expand...

So I decided to pull the brake off and really check it for any indications at all that the bullet was striking it. I had some initial issues getting the brake off without tools (didn't want to scratch it to hell), but I eventually got it removed and I pulled out a magnifying glass and a good light and went over every bit of the inside of that brake. I even used a toothpick to try to push away some carbon to see if the carbon was hiding copper marks or any kind of scratches. Nothing. I emailed my findings to Mark. He wrote back:

Sorry about the delay. I'm glad the brake came off. For a brake to cause accuracy issues, yes it could be from contact, but mainly from how the gas is distributed inside the brake, it can possibly induce a yaw on the bullet or cause an issue. We typically don't see many brakes causing issues, but we have seen it personally. Also, it is just a part of the troubleshooting process. Let me know how the next range session goes and if you cannot get it to shoot, we can get you a paid shipping label to send it back so we can look.
Click to expand...

Okay, so we at least had a plan, but we had other problems. Covid took my father in-law very suddenly a few days later. No one even knew he was sick. He was in a rehab facility in Manhattan recovering from hip surgery and my wife got a call at 2AM one morning that he had passed. As we were making funeral arrangements, my wife's brother mentions that he likely won't attend since he has a high fever and thinks he might have Covid too. He did, so did his wife, and at least one of his two daughters (my nieces). The wife was in bad shape for 3 weeks or so, the daughter dealt with it like it wasn't much of a thing, but my brother-in-law ended up on life-support for a while and is still now recovering. He had a 104+ fever for over a month, had severe pneumonia, and for a while was coughing blood regularly. He lost somewhere around 50 pounds in 7 weeks. He's 5'11" and went from 190lbs to 140lbs. He's lucky to be alive.

The ranges within 2 hours of me closed. As far as I could tell ... all of them. Life got weird. By mid-March I was already working from home. But I thought that was going to be a 4 week thing at most. Looks like I'm going to be here through the end of 2020 at the very least. Since then, NY made gun shops 'essential' so I've been shooting handgun over at a gun shop with an indoor range about 20 minutes from me, but nothing outdoors was open. Got an email two days ago that my regular range was opening today, so I took the morning off of work, grabbed the rifle, and got there at 8:30 this morning when they opened.

Spent a few rounds getting on paper again since I had taken everything off of the rifle after that last range visit. Then settled in and ripped off 5 rounds. This is Georgia Arms remanufactured .308 with a 168gr BTHP bullet in once-fired brass. This is NOT their match ammo (I blew through all of the match I had and when Covid hit, it wasn't a priority to pick up more).

IMG_20200522_093636.jpg


That was shot at 200 yards and measures 1.421" for a 0.678 MOA group. This was one of the better groups I've had with this rifle. I wasn't happy with it by any means, but it wasn't completely abysmal. Brake was on by the way. So I unscrewed the brake and shot this. Same load, same distance:

IMG_20200522_093642.jpg


I measured it on the target stand, but forgot to bring my camera to the target with me so I had to re-create the two pieces of paper later. That flyer in the upper left was shot #4. Knew I pulled it before the pin hit the primer. If you include the flyer, that's a 0.874" 5-shot group measuring 0.417 MOA. If you exclude the flyer, that's a 0.562" 4-shot group measuring 0.268 MOA. Remember, this isn't match ammo.

Unfortunately, my day was over at this point. My range has some new rules in place and I (as well as a few others) got screwed by them. You get 1 hour and 1 hour only at your selected range (they have 5 distinct areas/ranges at this facility). No more than 10 ports per range (by comparison, the 200 yard line has 28 target slots regularly).

I got there around 8:20AM (facility says they open at 8:30), and when I got to the 200 yard line I realized that I was late. Everyone had targets up and were down behind their rifles already. I set up my gear and waited. Next target change was at 9AM. By the time everyone got back from putting up new targets and whatnot, it was 9:10ish. I spent a few minutes getting my zero back, then took my time and tried not to heat up the barrel shooting both groups. When I finished that second group, it was 9:30 which was both time for a new target change, and for me to leave (my hour was up).

So anyway .... the f'n brake. I've never heard of that before, but the evidence was clear. I'm rather surprised that Mark pinned it as quickly as he did. And happy as all hell. Both for the fact that the rifle is what I originally hoped it would be, and that the ass-hats in this thread were both rude AND wrong. Wins all the way around.

Sent an email to Mark as soon as I got home asking what next steps are, I'm sure he'll take care of things. Thanks again to all who tried to help. I hope the rest of you get afflicted with a disease that makes you lose control of your bowel movements.
 
Last edited:
#91
BillyNg said:
For those that want to know what it was.

I emailed Mark @ SAC back in March, a few hours after coming back from that last range session and discussing things with Andrew McCourt, and about 2 hours before this cluster-fudge of a thread got started. It took him a few days to respond, but when he did he said this:



So I decided to pull the brake off and really check it for any indications at all that the bullet was striking it. I had some initial issues getting the brake off without tools (didn't want to scratch it to hell), but I eventually got it removed and I pulled out a magnifying glass and a good light and went over every bit of the inside of that brake. I even used a toothpick to try to push away some carbon to see if the carbon was hiding copper marks or any kind of scratches. Nothing. I emailed my findings to Mark. He wrote back:



Okay, so we at least had a plan, but we had other problems. Covid took my father in-law very suddenly a few days later. No one even knew he was sick. He was in a rehab facility in Manhattan recovering from hip surgery and my wife got a call at 2AM one morning that he had passed. As we were making funeral arrangements, my wife's brother mentions that he likely won't attend since he has a high fever and thinks he might have Covid too. He did, so did his wife, and at least one of his two daughters (my nieces). The wife was in bad shape for 3 weeks or so, the daughter dealt with it like it wasn't much of a thing, but my brother-in-law ended up on life-support for a while and is still now recovering. He had a 104+ fever for over a month, had severe pneumonia, and for a while was coughing blood regularly. He lost somewhere around 50 pounds in 7 weeks. He's 5'11" and went from 190lbs to 140lbs. He's lucky to be alive.

The ranges within 2 hours of me closed. As far as I could tell ... all of them. Life got weird. By mid-March I was already working from home. But I thought that was going to be a 4 week thing at most. Looks like I'm going to be here through the end of 2020 at the very least. Since then, NY made gun shops 'essential' so I've been shooting handgun over at a gun shop with an indoor range about 20 minutes from me, but nothing outdoors was open. Got an email two days ago that my regular range was opening today, so I took the morning off of work, grabbed the rifle, and got there at 8:30 this morning when they opened.

Spent a few rounds getting on paper again since I had taken everything off of the rifle after that last range visit. Then settled in and ripped off 5 rounds. This is Georgia Arms remanufactured .308 with a 168gr BTHP bullet in once-fired brass. This is NOT their match ammo (I blew through all of the match I had and when Covid hit, it wasn't a priority to pick up more).

View attachment 7333141

That was shot at 200 yards and measures 1.421" for a 0.678 MOA group. This was one of the better groups I've had with this rifle. I wasn't happy with it by any means, but it wasn't completely abysmal. Brake was on by the way. So I unscrewed the brake and shot this. Same load, same distance:

View attachment 7333143

I measured it on the target stand, but forgot to bring my camera to the target with me so I had to re-create the two pieces of paper later. That flyer in the upper left was shot #4. Knew I pulled it before the pin hit the primer. If you include the flyer, that's a 0.874" 5-shot group measuring 0.417 MOA. If you exclude the flyer, that's a 0.562" 4-shot group measuring 0.268 MOA. Remember, this isn't match ammo.

Unfortunately, my day was over at this point. My range has some new rules in place and I (as well as a few others) got screwed by them. You get 1 hour and 1 hour only at your selected range (they have 5 distinct areas/ranges at this facility). No more than 10 ports per range (by comparison, the 200 yard line has 28 target slots regularly).

I got there around 8:20AM (facility says they open at 8:30), and when I got to the 200 yard line I realized that I was late. Everyone had targets up and were down behind their rifles already. I set up my gear and waited. Next target change was at 9AM. By the time everyone got back from putting up new targets and whatnot, it was 9:10ish. I spent a few minutes getting my zero back, then took my time and tried not to heat up the barrel shooting both groups. When I finished that second group, it was 9:30 which was both time for a new target change, and for me to leave (my hour was up).

So anyway .... the f'n brake. I've never heard of that before, but the evidence was clear. I'm rather surprised that Mark pinned it as quickly as he did. And happy as all hell. Both for the fact that the rifle is what I originally hoped it would be, and that the ass-hats in this thread were both rude AND wrong. Wins all the way around.

Sent an email to Mark as soon as I got home asking what next steps are, I'm sure he'll take care of things. Thanks again to all who tried to help. I hope the rest of you get afflicted with a disease that makes you lose control of your bowel movements.
Click to expand...
Damn. I don't know what to say other than I sure hope things start improving for you--big time. Mark's the man; he really knows his stuff and takes great deal of pride in his work. He saved my rifle a few years ago and it's a great shooter today. He know's either this year or next he'll be rebarrelling it again. But this isn't about me. Best to you and yours.
 
#92
Glad you got it sorted & sorry to hear of your family's loss! Hope the rest have a speedy and full recovery.

Now I'm looking at the 2 new brakes on my bench & wondering what in the Hellfire is going on??
Seems really odd considering how many of those breaks are running well, mine included albeit on a 6.5?

If I were you I'd contact Area 419 and see if they want it back (I'd think they would want to have a close look). Maybe something went wonky with a tool path or scaling from original design bore to 308??

Please keep updating if you find out any more info.
 
#93
357Max said:
Glad you got it sorted & sorry to hear of your family's loss! Hope the rest have a speedy and full recovery.

Now I'm looking at the 2 new brakes on my bench & wondering what in the Hellfire is going on??
Seems really odd considering how many of those breaks are running well, mine included albeit on a 6.5?

If I were you I'd contact Area 419 and see if they want it back (I'd think they would want to have a close look). Maybe something went wonky with a tool path or scaling from original design bore to 308??

Please keep updating if you find out any more info.
Click to expand...

Mark can make that call if he wants. When I called him about building the rifle, I told him I wanted the most effective brake he knew of, he chose the HellFire and I'm still fine with his decision. I'll bet that if we chop a half inch off this barrel, recrown, rethread, and put the same brake back on the problem won't be there. You know how that first group was one of the best groups I'd shot yet out of the rifle, well I think that's because the brake had been removed by me after that last range visit and likely wasn't timed IDENTICALLY to the way it left SAC.

And I could lose another few inches off this barrel and not care much. I want the rigidity of a shorter barrel more than I want the velocity of a longer one.

Mark hasn't responded yet, I'll likely let him decide best course of action. I'm just happy I've got it figured out.
 
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